Seizures in Eastern Ribbon

[nekura]

I just put Scylla in her new 20 gallon tank and she was quite upset about being handled, but once inside she calmed down and explored. Then she just started having seizures, flipping, falling backwards and now she's hardly moving unless I try to pick her up. I did not feed her fish with Thiamese, I fed her Sally's Silversides which was approved as being safe food. She was wild caught as a baby, but show no health problems until now. Does anyone know why this is happening? There are no vets here for reptiles.

[guidofatherof5]

How long did it last?
Have you been using any Supplements?
What kind of substrate and did you use any chemicals to clean the 20 gal?

[kibakiba]

I'm thinking chemicals over food or anything else. Babies are very,very sensitive to chemicals.

[nekura]

I used some face and hand wipes, but then sprayed it down with water. I used a reptile carpet that was in storage. It lasts for about 5 seconds then she stops moving, and 30 minutes or so later it'll happen again. No supplements since the Silver sides have bone in them for calcium.. plus its hard just getting her to eat anything right now.

Should I take her out the cage?? The hand and face wipes are pretty gentle.

EDIT: or is it possible I just made her so upset that she's freaking out constantly? She musks and bites and I had to handle her for the cage swap. But I've been having troubles getting her to eat for the past two weeks.. she ate two silver sides about 4 days ago.

[nekura]

And now it seems she's laying her head in the food tray and..drinking the fish juice but not eating the fish..?

[kibakiba]

There is probably residue from the wipes. Instead of wipes, use a water and vinegar solution to clean it. You should probably rinse it out better, too. Just spraying it isn't going to get the residue off, I normally rinse and dry with a couple extra towels.

[nekura]

Okay thank you.. I have placed her in a temporary tiny container so if she seizes again she won't hurt herself.. she was literally leaping across the cage into walls and hides. I keep a small packet of silver sides defrosted in my ice box for fast feeding and I recall someone saying the longer a fish is kept not frozen it can form thiamese? Do you also think this could maybe be a cause?

EDIT: And now I'm worrying about my turtle. Different cage, but I used bleach to clean it out but ran a high powered spraying over it for awhile, filled it with water, dumped it out, then sprayed it hard against while it was upside down so the bleach would drain. I didn't towel dry it since more water was going in. He seems to be alright.. but now I'm worried.

[nekura]

Now she keeps losing consciousness.. I put her on a warm, wet towel for now.

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

I hate to say it but it does not sound good... Now don't forget that often people get so worried about the thiaminase thing that they forget there are tons of other reasons a snake can start seizuring... Yes chemicals are another but it could also be as simple as a terminal developmental issue. Snakes have a limited number of ways they can express an ailment and that's why seizure is such a common thing to witness in an ailing snake. I've lost my fair share of young to symptoms like this and to tell you the truth I still have no idea what caused it.... Each case unrelated from the last and nothing recently changed or cleaned. the change of scenery could have been a mere coincidence in your case but the stress of being moved could have also been a trigger. I've triggered a fatal seizure in a young snake merely by picking it up... It was a similis, and then a few months later her brother whom was kept separately also died of seizure and he was a year older. Now that snake i picked up was probably doomed to have one sooner or later regardless but sometimes a stimulus will help to trigger one. Of the few snakes I have seen it happen to... All were young snakes... I've never had it happen to adults. Probably because any snake prone to having a seizure is unlikely to make it to adulthood. Hope your snake turns around for you but something does sound seriously wrong... Hope I am not being too blunt!

[EasternGirl]

I agree with Shannon. I doubt it had anything to do with the wipes and your turtle should be fine. I clean all of my tanks with a bleach/water solution on a regular basis and then use plain water to spray it out until the bleach smell is gone...air it out for a little while and then put the snakes back in. I have never had a problem. In the future, I wouldn't use wipes to clean tanks...just vinegar or bleach/water solution. Just always make sure to clean it out with regular water afterward and let it air out for a while before putting your pets in. Like Shannon said, it sounds like something is very wrong (sorry) something that probably goes beyond something that you caused. It is very hard to tell sometimes why these things happen. Unfortunately there is often little we can do to prevent them or fix them. I hope that she does get better.

[nekura]

Thank you. I thought maybe I had done something horribly wrong. She's still alive, but it still having seizures but in her new compartment can't hurt herself as badly from the thrashing... She won't eat. Last night I was really worried and it still seems like she keeps losing consciousness after the seizures.

I noticed her acting strange a few weeks ago. Not seizing, just when handling and placing her into the tub for a short swim while I cleaned caged she would swim upside down and stay like that then appear to seize but I thought that was just her freaking out about my presence. When not seizure she will something slither on her back, or lift her head and just have it fall backwards.

[guidofatherof5]

With this last info. I must say it sounds like a very serious situation.
I think only time will tell where this situation is going. Not sure a Vet. would be able to do anything.
Please keep us posted.

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

If it's any consolation, I did have one snake that once had a seizure and recovered and has been fine ever since. it's my male red-striped ribbon. I believe the seizure was due to a bad batch of fish though... because two other babies at the time that ate the stuff mysteriously turned up dead shortly after.

[chris-uk]

It doesn't sound good, and I would agree with Steve that it's unlikely a vet will be able to do a lot to help. Shannon's comments give a positive that a seizure isn't always terminal. I hope this one pulls through for you.

[EasternGirl]

Is it possible for you to try feeding her something other than the silversides if she does decide to eat? Just in case that has anything at all to do with it? It's likely it doesn't, but just to rule it out.

[chris-uk]

I wouldn't try feeding at all until the seizures stop. If it's food related then drinking and flushing the system will be best bet, introducing more food may just complicate things.

[nekura]

She died this afternoon and I buried her not far from where I found her and her siblings. I know she has at least 2 siblings out in the wild somewhere (had to save them from the dog too).

She wouldn't eat anything but fish. I tried regular earthworms (not red wrigglers) and she took no interest. Her favorite was live mosquito fish, but the winter killed them off and the ones I had been trying to breed couldn't really keep up with her appetite. I fed her salmon steaks for a little while, but it was hard to go her to eat that, so I saw someone mention silver sides and started giving her those which she ate pretty well.

I'm not sure. Her sister died too, but I didn't see her seize. At the time Scylla mostly stole all the food from the sister so I had to make sure to separate them. Then one morning the sister was just dead after refusing to eat for a few days. Scylla remained healthy and grew fairly large, but still under a year old. Then its like she started to slowly lose control of her motor functions.

I am now snake-less. I don't thing I would want another ribbon due to their flighty personality which I fear may have attributed some part in her death via stress, but I'd certainly want another water snake. I just can't find and local breeders around me and the pet stores only have corn and pythons. I can't really deal with feeding them pinkies since I'm also a rodent lover, so a fish consumer would be preferred.. but garters also eat worms, which I'm also fine with feeding. I do have calcium supplements left over.

One good thing did come out of this though.. my mom has ALWAYS hated snakes.. she's terrified of them and often has nightmares involving them. At first she couldn't even stand looking at Scylla even thought she was such an adorable baby, but, since we've had her, my mom slowly started warming up to her and even bought her presents like new hides. She even fed her for me.

Now maybe she'll think twice before shooting them on sight.. and yes she kills ribbons/garters on sight if they're in the yard. I hope the experience has given her some insight on the animal and not what the horror movies show. When I told her about the seizures and unconsciousness she showed genuine sympathy about her and said that all animals go to heaven, even snakes.

[guidofatherof5]

Sorry to hear she passed.

[EasternGirl]

I'm so sorry to hear she passed away. But it does look like you found the bright side in looking at the positive changes in your mom's attitude toward snakes. That is quite the turnaround. I do believe that she is in a better place now...a place where there is no suffering, so she is at peace. Rest in peace little girl...

Many snakes that eat rodents can eat frozen/thawed rodents...so that you do not have to feed live ones. There are breeders that are looking for homes for garters if you look in the "for sale/trade/adoption" forum on here. If you have a garter, the best diet for the snake would be a varied diet of mice, fish, and worms. But you do not feed live rodents to garters...only frozen/thawed pinkies. I understand how you feel...I had pet rats for years. It isn't so bad feeding the frozen pinkies.

[nekura]

Ripping them apart for baby garters would make me feel awfully bad though.

[chris-uk]

Sorry to hear that she died, I was afraid I'd see this update from you today. I'm glad you can see some positives as well.
Garters can survive on a fish and worm diet if you supplement, so if you are looking forward and thinking about another snake I'd suggest one of the more robust species.

[EasternGirl]

I don't want to make you feel bad...but I know you are looking for answers and I am hoping this may help and may help other members as well. I was just reading that often snakes fed a diet of fish alone can develop a vitamin B1 deficiency which can cause seizures and neurological damage. The seizures usually develop within six months of the fish diet. Supplementing the diet with vitamins or even better, feeding a varied diet that includes pinkies along with the fish can stop the siezures...but if the neurological damage is severe it may not be reversible. Of course you couldn't have known this...and obviously we didn't know this either. And I know you tried to get her to eat other things. Most importantly, we have no way of knowing that this was the cause of your snakes illness. So please don't think that I am trying to say that you caused your snake's illness. I am just saying that this is possibly what could have been the problem...so that you can avoid such problems with future snakes and so that we can all learn from this. I read about it in a book that was recommended to me by another member, "What's Wrong with My Snake?"...it's a very good book and I highly recommend it to other members. I'm sure you tried your best with her and I am sorry for your loss. We do the best we can and that's all we can do.