general questions

[catfishrod69]

Ok im getting ready to pair my albino T. marcianus in a couple months. I just have a few questions. Can two albinos produce normal colored offspring? What does the terms het and hypo mean? How do I know what to label the babies as? Like would any of them be het, or hypo? Ive had my garters for about 2 years now. Tried breeding them once. They got along just great, but unfortunately I didnt know the needed to be brumated at the time. Also is there any suggestions you can give me as to caring for the young. Like special things I might not think of? Any help is greatly appreciated.

[guidofatherof5]

Albino + albino = albinos


Hypomelanistic - containing decreased amount of black and brown melanin.

Here's a link to Jeff B. homepage and a great article explaining some aspect of genetics.
Garter Snake Morph (http://gartersnakemorph.com/Snake-Genetics.php)

Brumation is not always necessary for successful breeding.

[EasternGirl]

There is an entire forum dedicated to breeding on this site...you may want to check it out: Breeding (http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/breeding/)

[catfishrod69]

ok thanks very much. i will check it out.
Albino + albino = albinos


Hypomelanistic - containing decreased amount of black and brown melanin.

Here's a link to Jeff B. homepage and a great article explaining some aspect of genetics.
Garter Snake Morph (http://gartersnakemorph.com/Snake-Genetics.php)

Brumation is not always necessary for successful breeding.

[catfishrod69]

thanks. i have been reading through it as much as i can. still just not sure on some of the terms.
There is an entire forum dedicated to breeding on this site...you may want to check it out: Breeding (http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/breeding/)

[chris-uk]

Are your two albinos unrelated? There are many albinos that have been inbred for generations, so more likely to have problems with the babies.

Here's one for the morph breeders - how many morph strains are there for marcianus? And if you breed two albinos with different base mutations, do you get more robust albinos?

[catfishrod69]

as far as i know they are unrelated. the guy that i got them from never bred them. this will be the first brumation they have went through, and the first pairing after brumating.
Are your two albinos unrelated? There are many albinos that have been inbred for generations, so more likely to have problems with the babies.

Here's one for the morph breeders - how many morph strains are there for marcianus? And if you breed two albinos with different base mutations, do you get more robust albinos?

[infernalis]

Chances are, they are related.

Like it has been said before, this strain has been heavily inbred forever.

[PINJOHN]

Chances are, they are related.

Like it has been said before, this strain has been heavily inbred forever.
maybe this could be an opportunity for those members with some knowledge of genetics to map out a way to freshen up our albino checkereds in future generations.
i know it can be complicated talking genes but is there a way to explain it to us thicko's.
for instance i have 1 albino female 1 normal female both unrelated, two unrelated males one of whom is from a wild caught father,....i have some young from the albino and male number2 also young from the normal female and the son of the wild caught ....the question is would that be enough genetic material to out cross and eventually get a vigorous albino and if so how many generations would it take to reach that point.

[EasternGirl]

If you have any questions about terms you do not understand, feel free to ask...

[catfishrod69]

well im really hoping not. i have been planning on pairing them for two years now.
Chances are, they are related.

Like it has been said before, this strain has been heavily inbred forever.

[chris-uk]

maybe this could be an opportunity for those members with some knowledge of genetics to map out a way to freshen up our albino checkereds in future generations.
i know it can be complicated talking genes but is there a way to explain it to us thicko's.
for instance i have 1 albino female 1 normal female both unrelated, two unrelated males one of whom is from a wild caught father,....i have some young from the albino and male number2 also young from the normal female and the son of the wild caught ....the question is would that be enough genetic material to out cross and eventually get a vigorous albino and if so how many generations would it take to reach that point.

I prepared a better answer to you yesterday John, but tried posting it twice with my phone screwing it up each time. Summary - you could introduce new genetic material over 4-5 years. At some point you get back to albinos you will have to pair half siblings, which isn't ideal but I'd wager that in the past your albino has either brother-sister or mother-son pairings.
Over 4 years you'd be able to get a half brother and sister, with the brother being 2 generations removed from WC. So at the end of the day you will end up with a close-relation pairing, however it would at least have good new genetic material from the WC. Starting with just a single albino I don't think you can do, any better, and whether the WC great-grandfather would be enough to strengthen the strain... I'm not sure, but better than breeding close relations without having the WC in the family tree.

I was going to post a picture of my scribbles working through the family tree, but that's when I lost my replies yesterday.

[catfishrod69]

ok i understand that. just wasnt sure on if i should breed them or not. i mean chances they are related, but that doesnt mean they are. what do you think?
I prepared a better answer to you yesterday John, but tried posting it twice with my phone screwing it up each time. Summary - you could introduce new genetic material over 4-5 years. At some point you get back to albinos you will have to pair half siblings, which isn't ideal but I'd wager that in the past your albino has either brother-sister or mother-son pairings.
Over 4 years you'd be able to get a half brother and sister, with the brother being 2 generations removed from WC. So at the end of the day you will end up with a close-relation pairing, however it would at least have good new genetic material from the WC. Starting with just a single albino I don't think you can do, any better, and whether the WC great-grandfather would be enough to strengthen the strain... I'm not sure, but better than breeding close relations without having the WC in the family tree.

I was going to post a picture of my scribbles working through the family tree, but that's when I lost my replies yesterday.

[chris-uk]

We have an albino female. She was our first snake. And we have decided that we will not breed from her even with an unrelated albino checkered.

Ultimately, the decision to breed or not is yours. If you do there's things you need to consider -
- Can you either look after all the young or do you know you can find them all homes? Checkereds can have 20-30 young, sometimes many more.
- There's a risk with the albinos (particularly if they are related) that you may end up with young that fail to thrive or have other problems. So you'll need to be willing and able to deal with that possibility.

I want to experience breeding from our snakes, but the pair we have that will breed first are unrelated snakes, a species that typically has fewer young, and one that is rare enough in the UK that there will be a demand for any babies that we don't keep (Pinjohn - you wanted one, right?). My early plan to breed from Binky is now well and truly shelved.

Another option would be to get another male and pair it with your female, then you get to experience breeding. They wouldn't produce any albinos, but it depends what you want to get out of breeding from your snakes.

[catfishrod69]

well i know they do have alot of babies. i have already talked to people about taking a few. i am also a member in a tarantula forum, and deal mainly with inverts. but i would be able to trade them off pretty easily there. i wouldnt want the young to suffer which would be a downfall. but what happens that my garters are not related, or maybe distantly related? do you think it would be worth the chance to find out? also if i would get another male, which is a option, how would i know that they are not related or closely related? and if i can find a albino male, then i would still be able to produce albinos. thanks for all your input.

[chris-uk]

No way to know if they are related unless the person you got them from could tell you.
You won't know what sort of litter you will get until you do it. It sounds like you've thought through some of the consequences. If you haven't already, do a search on the forum for "FTT" or "fail to thrive" and you'll get an idea as to the moral dilemmas and tough decisions you may face. You'll find a thread from Pinjohn about a litter from an albino female and normal male which is proving to be a struggle, there's others who share their difficult experience, and others I'm sure who go through the same but keep their decisions private.
I may have a focus on some negatives in breeding, that's because I think albinos are more likely to have problems. There's a lot of positive experience as well.

[catfishrod69]

yeah i see what you are saying. i have thought it through. i know it would be hard to put the little guys down if need be, but there is also a 50% chance i might have all healthy babies. i will look up the "fail to thrive" though, and look at my situation some more to prepare myself for anything that might go wrong. thanks
No way to know if they are related unless the person you got them from could tell you.
You won't know what sort of litter you will get until you do it. It sounds like you've thought through some of the consequences. If you haven't already, do a search on the forum for "FTT" or "fail to thrive" and you'll get an idea as to the moral dilemmas and tough decisions you may face. You'll find a thread from Pinjohn about a litter from an albino female and normal male which is proving to be a struggle, there's others who share their difficult experience, and others I'm sure who go through the same but keep their decisions private.
I may have a focus on some negatives in breeding, that's because I think albinos are more likely to have problems. There's a lot of positive experience as well.