My new garter(s)

[mikem]

Picked up a pair of these a few weeks ago. Female is pictured. She just shed a couple days ago. Male looks identical, but a bit smaller. Both are feeding on guppies/tilapia pieces at the moment. Trying to get them switched over to rodents. Feeding time is tomorrow and I plan on changing their bedding to newspaper. Don't really care for the aspen. Anywho, thanks for looking!

[EasternGirl]

You can alternate between the tilapia and frozen/thawed pinkies...that would give them a more rounded diet. Add some worms in too now and again if you can. There are some other options for bedding too other than aspen and newspaper that I can suggest if you are interested. Laying newspaper or paper towels down to feed on is a good idea though...don't want to feed on the aspen, definitely. Beautiful snake you have there!

[chris-uk]

Welcome to the forum. Looks like nice garter you have there.

[GarterGuy17]

Welcome ! Very nice snake by the way :)

[mikem]

thanks for the replies! she is a concinnus, yes? may be a stupid question, but the bold stripes on her sides confuse me. they are LTC and i was told they came from oregon. like i said, the male looks just like her, so maybe they're just dimorphic?

easterngirl, that's the plan! good variety of diet. as far as bedding, i'll probably put a bottom layer of newspaper and then add some carefresh on top for them to crawl around in. thanks for the advice!

[guidofatherof5]

Nice to have you with us.
Good looking snake.
Here's a link to the care sheet.
Garter Snake Forum - Garter Caresheet (http://www.thamnophis.com/index.php?page=caresheet)

[chris-uk]

thanks for the replies! she is a concinnus, yes? may be a stupid question, but the bold stripes on her sides confuse me. they are LTC and i was told they came from oregon. like i said, the male looks just like her, so maybe they're just dimorphic?

easterngirl, that's the plan! good variety of diet. as far as bedding, i'll probably put a bottom layer of newspaper and then add some carefresh on top for them to crawl around in. thanks for the advice!

They could be a concinnus from the photo you posted. The pattern looks right to me, but I'm not 100% on the redsided species. I thought the concinnus had a brighter red head though, so they could be parietalis... There's a lot of members who are more familiar with these species, so you'll soon get a positive ID.

Varied diet is the way to go.

[Stefan-A]

Probably fitchi, probably not concinnus, definitely not parietalis.

[chris-uk]

I had an inkling towards fitchi, but didn't suggest it as an option because I didn't think they were very common. But what's not common here is not necessarily so scarce elsewhere.

[EasternGirl]

I'm not good at identifying the different types of garters yet...carefresh sounds like a good plan...that's what I use. They do enjoy burrowing down in it. Be careful not to feed on it though...they can ingest it and get a blockage.

[Stefan-A]

I had an inkling towards fitchi, but didn't suggest it as an option because I didn't think they were very common. But what's not common here is not necessarily so scarce elsewhere.
Understandable.

Not many redheads to choose from, though, and fitchi is the one with the rosy cheeks.

[mikem]

Oh wow. Just googled fitchi and pulled up the californiaherps website ... there's a belly shot of one from klickitat county, Washington that looks identical to mine. I picked this pair up at a herp show. The guy was selling them as oregon red spotted garters. I did mention how they had low red coloration. He said that's because the red ones you see are bred for bright reds. I just took his word for it... I wasn't even familiar with fitchi! That's a nice surprise :)

[EasternGirl]

It is a nice surprise...

[mikem]

indeed! and thank you for the feeding advice!

[EasternGirl]

If you need any help with anything just let us know! And we love to see pics whenever you feel like posting them!

[BUSHSNAKE]

i had a concinnus that looks very similar to that one.... and a picture of my fitchi

[mikem]

hmm, well then... i'm not certain. here's a couple more pics. a better headshot of the female and the male (ate earlier so he's a little pudgy). he sits fine for pics. the girl goes full throttle as soon as i open her container! any ideas now?

[mikem]

and a few more pics. first two of female. last is male.

[chris-uk]

Not having kept either fitchi or concinnus I'm comparing your pics to other pics I've seen. I know in species like radix there's a lot of natural variation in colour, I don't know enough about fitchi and concinnus to differentiate so I'll leave this idea to some other members.
Still, whichever it is they are great looking snakes, I'm lacking any "red" garter species at the moment, but hoping to put that right by getting an infernalis or two.

[katach]

Just looking at the photos, It looks like the fitchi has a more narrow and longer nose. Your guys seem to have a broader and more stubbed nose. I would tend to rule out the fitchi, but I am not an expert at all so I could be completely wrong.

[EasternGirl]

Looks just like the fitchi in the Evolution and Ecology book...doesn't look like the parietalis. The coloring matches the fitchi...but I'm going by a book here...I've never seen either in person. Doesn't look at all like the concinnus in the book.

[mikem]

couple more shots of the male. he has a little water on him in the first pic. had to rinse him off after he decided to sling poo on me and him, haha! :rolleyes: and last one is the best i could do for bellies. male on the left, female right.

[EasternGirl]

Yep...I'm going with fitchi based on pics...but like I said...I've never seen one in person.

[jamromhem]

lol. I am lucky that my checkered never slang poo.. She pooed on me a time or two in her first year with me, but she doesn't do that any more. Her favorite past time is just watching whoever is around through her cage.. Seems we are more entertainment for her than she is for us some days :P

[PINJOHN]

Welcome from an exceedingly mild Liverpool
http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcR4y1dPtN-EVPENg1BYYsLqoHg5jOJOmruRHFC-G6D7nGLBSxPphAhttp://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSaz93quM1Ay0V0d7uMRqvUm3CpZZtMC wWq2SdiSWB_eWH5brgjzg

TODAY'S SCOUSE FACTOID
Birkenhead park on the west bank of the river mersey was not only the first publicly funded park in Britain but it was the inspiration for many of the features put into New York's Central park by its designer Frederick Olmsted after his visit to merseyside.

[mikem]

thanks for the welcome! that reminds me... need to drop in and say hello in the welcome lounge :cool:

[guidofatherof5]

thanks for the welcome! that reminds me... need to drop in and say hello in the welcome lounge :cool:

That would be great.

[mikem]

Yep...I'm going with fitchi based on pics...but like I said...I've never seen one in person.

here's a together shot. the male looks fitchi, for sure.

[ConcinusMan]

While it's not surprising at all that people are saying "fitchi" I have to disagree. The larger one is a laterally striped female concinnus IMO. Very typical of concinnus' found outside the Willamette Valley. Especially along the Columbia River in extreme NW Oregon and SW WA, and the southern WA coast. In those locations, concinnus' carry a gene that allows for mixed litters. Some with lateral striping and fitchi-like traits, and some without. I guess you could call it dimorphism. I've worked with these type of concinnus for many years. You can breed two laterally striped ones together, or two single-striped ones together, and you'll still get mixed litters, containing both morphs. Big Bertha is of this type of concinnus, but she's a single striped. Chantel's two concinnus' (one of each type, Ember and Snap) are also of this dimorphic type. Joes is a WC adult of this dimorphic type. They may look like fitchi's but I assure you they are concinnus'.

Now, the smaller one pictured, I'm not so sure of. The color seems more typical of fitchi to me.

Of these dimorphic type of concinnus', Big Bertha is the single stripe morph:
http://img228.imageshack.us/img228/7492/bertha015large.jpg

And this is the laterally striped version. These two snakes could be siblings, and the parents could be either morph. You'll find both types in their litters, and within the populations where they live.
http://img9.imageshack.us/img9/574/gedc1432.jpg

litters have siblings of both types, even if both parents are one type or the other:
http://img442.imageshack.us/img442/5114/kibaka012medium.jpg

A rough idea of where the dimorphic concinnus' are found. The Blue area I have shaded in, and of course they are also found along the Oregon side of the river and NW Oregon coast. The farther away you get from the river (Columbia and Willamette rivers, which join near Portland) and the coast, the less likely you are to find the dimorphic type. Within the actual willamette valley in Oregon, they are pretty much uniform, typical orange headed single striped.
http://img263.imageshack.us/img263/5206/washingtonstatecounties.png

[EasternGirl]

Hmmm...they do look like his snakes. You would know more than I. I was just going by pictures in the Evolution and Ecology book.

[Stefan-A]

Yeah, I'm starting to lean a bit towards concinnus.

[ConcinusMan]

It's easier to tell when you've seen many fitchi and many of the laterally striped concinnus' in person. Going out herping, I would never mistake one for the other, because their ranges do not overlap. Still, you could place both in a container and I would be able to sort out which is which. There's subtle, yet obvious differences when compared side by side.

[ConcinusMan]

WA fitchi, which is found in Eastern WA and the east end of Columbia river gorge, is well outside of concinnus' range. It has redder reds, and yellower yellows, than concinnus, if that makes sense. That's why I'm not so sure about the smaller snake. The color seems more fitchi to me.

[mikem]

Thank you for the very informative reply, ConcinnusMan! Is there any specific angle of photo that i can take to help you better ID the little male?

[ConcinusMan]

Take photos at various angles. Whatever shows the color and pattern best. Take the photos in bright natural daylight, no flash.

[mikem]

absolutely! the weather here at the moment is wet and rainy. it may be tomorrow afternoon or even thursday as it's calling for more clouds and rain tomorrow :( if you wouldn't mind peeping back in over the next couple of days, i will definitely get those pics for ya. Thanks again!

[mikem]

alright, first sunny day this week. hope these pics are adequate. my cell phone is the only camera i have right now.

[mikem]

and the rest. let me know if these photos are good enough. i can try some more if needed. thanks for looking!

[BUSHSNAKE]

Thank you for the very informative reply, ConcinnusMan! Is there any specific angle of photo that i can take to help you better ID the little male?
in this picture i say concinnus

[ConcinusMan]

I don't think this latest one pictured is a concinnus. It looks like a WA or OR state T.s. fitchi to me. I suspected that first because of the color. Now looking at the light colored underside and well defined edge of the lateral stripe where it meets the black, I'm having doubts about both of them. I'm pretty darn sure the male is a fitchi, and the female could be one too.

The light undersides for one, isn't typical of a laterally striped concinnus. Neither is the well defined upper edge of the lateral stripe. Those are fitchi traits.

Let me show you another fitchi from Oregon:

http://www.wildherps.com/images/herps/standard/015713_Valley_gartersnake.jpg

And another:

http://www.wildherps.com/images/herps/standard/015841_garter.jpg

See what I mean? Look at the sides and the color. Now look at another laterally striped concinnus from Clatsop county Oregon:
http://www.wildherps.com/images/herps/standard/015752_red-spotted_gartersnake.jpg

See the differences? Normally, range would tell you if it's a concinnus or a fitchi but since we don't know where they were found, those differences I just illustrated are how you tell the two apart (fitchi vs. concinnus). It's pretty common for people who don't know about the range of concinnus, to go find a fitchi in Oregon, and assume because it's from Oregon, and has red spots, it must be an oregon red spotted. Well, concinnus doesn't occur in the same areas as fitchi. Generally concinnus is confined to the Willamette Valley and SW WA. Fitchi is found in the rest of Oregon and eastern WA where concinnus does not occur.

Like I said, looking at the laterals and underside, I'm thinking they are both Valley garters. Laterally striped concinnus' do not have light undersides, (with the exception of the throat area) and the lateral stripes are usually a different color. Sort of bluish, and the edge isn't well defined.

With all that said, I think that Stefan was right all along.:cool: Those are fitchi laterals on both snakes. Unfortunately, I would say that there are also many fitchi/concinnus mixed breeds out there being sold as concinnus. I've seen plenty of "concinnus" for sale that sure do look like concinnus' but they aren't like any pure concinnus you can find in the wild.

[mikem]

Awesome! So a pair of fitchi it is :) Thanks for yet another informative post! I'm glad to finally know what I have!

[mikem]

See the differences? Normally, range would tell you if it's a concinnus or a fitchi but since we don't know where they were found, those differences I just illustrated are how you tell the two apart (fitchi vs. concinnus). It's pretty common for people who don't know about the range of concinnus, to go find a fitchi in Oregon, and assume because it's from Oregon, and has red spots, it must be an oregon red spotted. Well, concinnus doesn't occur in the same areas as fitchi. Generally concinnus is confined to the Willamette Valley and SW WA. Fitchi is found in the rest of Oregon and eastern WA where concinnus does not occur.

Like I said, looking at the laterals and underside, I'm thinking they are both Valley garters. Laterally striped concinnus' do not have light undersides, (with the exception of the throat area) and the lateral stripes are usually a different color. Sort of bluish, and the edge isn't well defined.

With all that said, I think that Stefan was right all along.:cool: Those are fitchi laterals on both snakes. Unfortunately, I would say that there are also many fitchi/concinnus mixed breeds out there being sold as concinnus. I've seen plenty of "concinnus" for sale that sure do look like concinnus' but they aren't like any pure concinnus you can find in the wild.

like i said in the original post, the vendor i purchased them from said they were indeed wild caught from oregon. he had another female, but i decided not to get her because she had some scarring and the last inch or so of her tail was missing. and since you said that concinnus and fitchi aren't in the same area, i don't think either would be mixed.

are you talking about people unintentionally breeding fitchi/concinnus' in captivity and selling them as "concinnus"? or do they share a range somewhere and may naturally intergrade?

[GarterGuy17]

Nice snakes :D

[mikem]

here's a couple more headshots of the female. too cold to go outside and no sun for a couple days :(

[kibakiba]

Looks like my Snappy. :D

[mikem]

Basically what im asking is do concinnus and fitchi intergrade in Oregon. I want to breed but don't want to make intergrades or hybrids. If you think the female is an intergrade then I wont breed her.

[kibakiba]

To me, it's a normal concinnus. I'm not sure what an intergrade would look like, but she does look perfectly like a concinnus.

[ConcinusMan]

are you talking about people unintentionally breeding fitchi/concinnus' in captivity and selling them as "concinnus"? or do they share a range somewhere and may naturally intergrade?

Yes to the first question. You can see how it was confusing to I.D. the snakes. If I knew exact location where it was found, I wouldn't have any trouble identifying them myself, but this wouldn't be the first, and won't be the last time I've seen snakes mislabeled or sold as concinnus when they weren't. These two species would readily interbreed in captivity. This leads me to believe that some concinnus' bred in captivity aren't necessarily pure and could have other similar subspecies in their bloodlines. Anyway, fitchi are very widespread in Oregon, including the desert climate east of the Cascade range, while concinnus' are confined to the NW portion of Oregon and the Willamette Valley. Fitchi just aren't found in that area. They prefer a drier climate such as eastern Oregon and WA where concinnus do not occur.

The Columbia River Gorge cuts a "path" of sorts through the cascade range. This creates a break in the mountain barrier. Travel from west to east (forest gives way to desert as you go east) through the gorge and there is small intergrade zone as you leave concinnus' range and begin to enter fitchi's range but the overlap area is very small. In the climate transition zone in the Gorge, sometimes you can find desert species farther west than they would normally occur.

[ConcinusMan]

To me, it's a normal concinnus. I'm not sure what an intergrade would look like, but she does look perfectly like a concinnus.

Again, there are subtle clues I pointed out above that tells me they are not typical of laterally striped concinnus'.

And mikem, an intergrade isn't necessarily a hybrid. It just means there's an area of overlap in the natural range, and snakes in that zone share some physical traits of both subspecies. If you were to cross the two subspecies in captivity, that wouldn't be an intergrade. It would be a hybrid. Intergrade just refers to snakes found in nature that live in an area of overlap and share features consistent with both subspecies. It doesn't mean that those snakes are necessarily hybrids, although the two could be naturally interbreeding in that overlap (intergrade) zone.

With that said, it's possible that these snakes were found in the intergrade zone. Like I said it's a very small area in the Gorge, right on the eastern most edge of concinnus' range, and the western edge of fitchi's range.

It is possible that these niether fit the description of concinnus completely, nor fitchi completely or neatly. Either way, they are definitely Oregon T. sirtalis. The subspecies I.D. could be debated forever but not proven. Exact location where they were found would be helpful.

[mikem]

haha, this makes my head hurt! why can't it just be simple :eek: it would be the snakes i purchase.. lol

most likely i will see the vendor again this spring or summer. and he usually has a small group of red spotted garters from oregon. i'm assuming he gets them from the same person and probably collected in the same general area. if he's there, i'll ask about collection location.

are you comfortable calling these fitchi based on what i've shown you? i just don't want to mislead anyone if i let them breed. or would you recommend holding off on that all together?

[mikem]

I've been reading and rereading everything you typed out. Basically, there's no way to be completely sure on the subspecies I may have here. I wouldn't mind working with a little fitchi or concinnus project, but don't want to create hybrids. Perhaps it's best if these two don't mate and just keep them as pets.

[EasternGirl]

If you aren't absolutely positive as to the subspecies, it's probably a good idea.

[mikem]

yea, that's pretty much my conclusion after a good night sleep. i never expected the big confusion when i purchased them! i just assumed they were concinnus because that's what the vendor had them labeled as. i wasn't even aware of the subspecies that look so similiar. i've learned a ton since posting this thread, thanks to everyone here, especially ConcinnusMan! i actually found him and these forums by doing some googling about red spotted garters. i sent him a pm asking for some help and he has shared a plethora of information here! big thanks for that!!

these two will have to just get over the fact that they're pets :) they're very pretty, no matter what they may be. that's why i bought them in the first place.

there's so many attractive garters out there, i'm sure i'll find some to work with that won't be so confusing to identify! :cool:

[ConcinusMan]

I've been reading and rereading everything you typed out. Basically, there's no way to be completely sure on the subspecies I may have here.

Pretty much. However, knowing the exact location could rule out one or the other. On the one hand, the heads look very much like concinnus, and on the other hand, there are many fitchi traits. According to the book "Reptiles of the Northwest", concinnus' found in some areas outside the Willamette Valley, have many "fitchi like" traits.

Why can't it be simple? Because we don't know where the snakes were found. Location, location, location.

I'm not sure if your seller just rounds them up and sells them right away or what, but my policy has always been to keep them at least 90 days before selling or giving them away. During that time I watch for health issues, make sure they're eating well, and most importantly, I treat them thoroughly for internal parasites. This requires two different medications and several weeks to treat. This is because the medication that rids them of tapeworms has no effect on roundworms, flukes, etc. and visa-versa.

Because of the wild diet consisting of fish, frogs, newts, etc. it's all but guaranteed that WC concinnus carry a parasite load. I highly recommend that you treat them for internal parasites. They will do much better in captivity if you do that. They'll gain weight, eat better, have better immunity against illness, and live longer. They can live years in the wild with parasites but often times in captivity the parasites get out of hand and their health suffers. If you can get them to a vet to get this done, I suggest you do it.

[ConcinusMan]

Check out this thread from a while back. Note the second picture. Looks a lot like your snakes, and it is a concinnus. The snakes pictured were found at the mouth of the Columbia River, on the coast of Oregon and/or WA. That rules out fitchi.:cool: So, flip, flop, concinnus, fitchi.:rolleyes:

http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/general-talk/3187-washington-garters.html

[mikem]

thanks for the advice! i'll look into it. i know they have been ltc for a few months at least. the vendor had two babies that my male and the other scarred female produced earlier in 2011.

[mikem]

haha @ that post!

do all garters run into this issue with identifying them? or is it just concinnus and fitchi?

[chris-uk]

Some garters are cut and dry, positively identifiable - I think T. equis cuitzeoensis are difficult to mistake for anything else. And something like a T. cyrtopsis ocelatis (off top of my head, have I got that right for an Eastern Blackneck) are unmistakable.

[ConcinusMan]

If you do some forum searching you'll see that this isn't the first thread where we had a hard time figuring this out. The trouble lies in not knowing where the snake came from. I would say that for the most part, there isn't much trouble in identifying most other garter species. It's just that concinnus' can look very much like fitchi in certain areas outside the Willamette Valley, and both subspecies occur in WA and OR. That's where exact location info comes in handy. Like I said several times before, location rules out one or the other in cases where a concinnus looks like a fitchi.

Concinnus' are much more variable than most people think. There is much more variation when they are found outside the Willamette Valley. I don't know if you've seen them or not, but in 2009 I found a location in Oregon that is home to populations of concinnus' that are highly variable, and even include snakes that lack red or orange, and are even blue. When I posted pics of them, I was surprised to find out that this color variation was unknown by most people before that.

Before the recent forum overhaul we had a "wiki pages" section where I posted pics of many very different variations. I can't find it now. Many of the variations I have found can be seen here: http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/general-talk/7090-concinnusmans-garters.html

Anyway, these below are another variation of concinnus found only in a small portion of their range in NW Oregon. Where they occur, there are many other color/pattern variations within the same population. Looking at the pictures alone, one would not tend to think these are concinnus' but since I know where they were found, and saw all the variations in the population, they couldn't be anything else but concinnus.

The most remarkable concinnus variation I've ever found. Blue Anerythristic morph:
http://gallery.pethobbyist.com/data/165637anerys_026_%28Large%29-med.jpg

http://oi55.tinypic.com/34o6742.jpg

And then there's hypoerythristic (basically yellow)
http://img196.imageshack.us/img196/9971/daddy008large.jpg

[ConcinusMan]

Some garters are cut and dry, positively identifiable - I think T. equis cuitzeoensis are difficult to mistake for anything else. And something like a T. cyrtopsis ocelatis (off top of my head, have I got that right for an Eastern Blackneck) are unmistakable.

But there are some mexican cyrtopsis type species that can be difficult to identify.

[mikem]

wow the blue anery is :eek: i would have assumed that was a puget. it would be neat to see a group shot of all the different variations of concinnus together.

[chris-uk]

But there are some mexican cyrtopsis type species that can be difficult to identify.

You mean some Mexican equis species? I thought there were only 2 cyrtopsis species?
But agreed, some of the other T. equis species are a lot more difficult to tell apart than the cuitzeoensis. You can't really mistake a Cuitzeo with it's jet black body, white chin and pink underside of to it's tail. Not even a melanistic morph looks like a Cuitzeo because they lack the chin and tail colour.

[ConcinusMan]

I just mean there are mexican species that look a lot like blacknecks, and they are variable and somewhat obscure and hard to I.D. without exact location info.

[chris-uk]

OK. Yes, you're spot on with the location information being one of the most important pieces of information when it comes to a positive ID.

[ConcinusMan]

wow the blue anery is :eek: i would have assumed that was a puget.

Why? Most pugets aren't blue either, and when pugets have side spots, they are always red.;) Just like these blue concinnus', blue pugets are only found in a very small part of their range. Elsewhere across their range, they aren't blue at all, and in the northern part, pugets are red spotted like a normal concinnus.

[ConcinusMan]

OK, I've been doing some research and viewing photos with locale info. Apparently, on the southern Oregon coast, T. sirtalis' there have characteristics of both fitchi and concinnus. In other words, they look like the snakes in this thread. While that location is a bit outside the range of concinnus and within fitchi range, that area appears to be an intergrade zone. Snakes there aren't quite concinnus, not quite fitchi. As you go south into California, staying on the coast, the snakes gradually start to take on more infernalis characteristics.

Something similar happens in WA. The southern WA coastline has snakes that are very much like concinnus' but tend to have lateral stripes and dark heads. As you go north along the coast they gradually take on more pickeringi characteristics and it becomes difficult to say whether they are concinnus or red spotted pugets.:cool:

The validity of subspecies is often challenged. It's not all "black and white". There are "gray" areas. The fact is, all of these are T. sirtalis and separating by subspecies is like separating humans by race, and as you all know, races mix.

If you wanted to breed these questionable snakes, I don't see anything wrong with breeding two of them from the same area. You wouldn't be artificially creating "intergrades" or hybrids that way.

[mikem]

Why? Most pugets aren't blue either, and when pugets have side spots, they are always red.;)
because i wasn't that familiar with the variation in concinnus and would have assumed a black and blue garter equals puget. i'm still fairly new to the garter scene and learning more and more everyday!

and a big thanks for doing more research! i wasn't expecting that, very nice of you! :) i completely understand what you're saying about the way they take on similiar characteristics from the intergrade zone and radiate out from that area. makes since. i guess the snakes aren't too picky with one another when breeding season comes round and will take advantage of whatever garter is within their range, no matter the subspecies. i like the human analogy you made there, very true. we humans aren't picky either. as long as our partner is accepting, we generally go for it, lol!

[ConcinusMan]

I just mean that whether they are concinnus' or fitchii, both of those are still the same species; T. sirtalis;)

Both are also specifically western located sirtalis'.

[ConcinusMan]

I say more about this here: http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/husbandry/9956-mouse-meat-activity-cycle-2.html#post198362 (http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/husbandry/9956-mouse-meat-activity-cycle-2.html#post198362)

[katach]

And some have no lateral markings, like my two ladies.


Why? Most pugets aren't blue either, and when pugets have side spots, they are always red.;) Just like these blue concinnus', blue pugets are only found in a very small part of their range. Elsewhere across their range, they aren't blue at all, and in the northern part, pugets are red spotted like a normal concinnus.

[ConcinusMan]

Well like I said, concinnus and pickeringi are all but identical genetically. Some populations have lateral stripes, some don't. Some are blue, most aren't.