Marnie's Snakes

[EasternGirl]

I'm just going to start a new thread for all of my snakes...that way I don't have to have separate threads for all of them. I'll just post here if I want to update everyone on one of them or if something is going on. I did post some new stuff about Cee Cee and Seeley in the Cee Cee and Seeley's Journal thread last night though...so if you haven't read it yet and you have a minute...

I have been playing with my new camera. Here are a couple of pics of Cee Cee after her shed...

36773678

[EasternGirl]

I think I'm going to go ahead and give my vet a call and see if anyone over there knows anything about garters. Seeley is still refusing food and he looks yellow under his head and neck area...and he just doesn't seem to be acting right to me. If they don't see reptiles at my vet, there is a vet near here that does...I'll call there and make an appointment.

[guidofatherof5]

Looks good. Keep us posted about Seeley.
Hope all is well.

[EasternGirl]

Thanks. I think I'm going to have to start to move Hermes into a feed tank...I tried to feed him with the hemostats tonight and he absolutely loved it but he went so crazy and he was dragging the food down into the carefresh and it was really scaring me. I don't think he ingested any...but now I'm worried about him because I can't be absolutely sure. I stopped feeding him from the hemostats and put the food in his dish so that he wouldn't drag it into the carefresh anymore. He really seemed to like eating from the hemostats so I guess I'll just move him to a feed tank on paper towels and feed him from now on.

[thamneil]

If you cut his food into bite sized pieces you will have less of a problem with substrate ingestion. Dont be too worried. I have had snakes eat things far worse than carefresh. We once had a snake at work that ate a piece of rubber, he passed it just fine.

-Neil

[kibakiba]

Carefresh is what's got Ember impacted right now, so technically it is just as bad.

[EasternGirl]

Well the good thing is that his food was cut up into small pieces and that the one piece of carefresh that I saw on his food was very tiny if he did ingest it...he may have worked it off while he was working the food into his mouth. The next piece of food he carried into his little bush and ate it in the bush...I watched him eat it. Then I took the rest of the food and put it on a dish on top of a paper towel like I usually do because I was just getting too worried. Like I said, next time I will just put him in a feed tank and feed him with the hemostats on paper towels, since he seems to like being fed by hemostats. I think I'm going to go and buy a 10 gallon to use for a feed tank...I need to have one for my female eastern for feeding too.

[EasternGirl]

Okay...now Cee Cee is doing the same weird regurgitating thing that Seeley was doing two days ago. She is regurgitating foam and mucus. They are together a lot so I don't know if there is something going on that they both are experiencing. I changed her water...cleaned her dish and put spring water in her bowl just like I did with Seeley's a couple of days ago. She ate yesterday...two pinkies. I had just held her right before she started doing this...and I don't know if she had drank any water right before. Seeley had not eaten for a couple of days before he started doing it. He may have been drinking before...I don't know. I had not held him anytime before he started regurgitating. I have absolutely no idea what is going on. I'm going to call the vet tomorrow. I guess I'll take them both in.

[guidofatherof5]

Strange. Keep us posted on what's going on.

[kibakiba]

Snakey regurgitated foamy stuff once, when I was holding him after he ate. It could just be the fact that he was digesting it, got disturbed and puked, and in the process of it coming up it foamed before it came out.

[EasternGirl]

Now she just keeps doing something weird with her mouth like she's readjusting her jaw. This is all very strange. Would she still be digesting from eating yesterday to the point that picking her up today could have made her do this?

[kibakiba]

Yeah, pinkies take quite some time to digest. It was the same thing with Snakey. I'm not sure about the yawning/readjusting jaw though.

[EasternGirl]

So maybe that's all that it was...she gets all nervous when I pick her up...she is so skiddish. Maybe she just got upset and hadn't digested her food. I still don't know what Seeley's problem was though.

[EasternGirl]

Well, I fed the snakes again tonight. Cee Cee was a complete pig again and went after my fingers again. She has learned to identify the hemostats and knows its feeding time when she sees me coming to the enclosure with the hemostats. (anyone who ever thought garters were not intelligent..should understand that this is textbook Pavlovian classical conditioning...like with the famous Pavlov's dogs experiments...and there must be some sort of intelligence in order for the conditioning to occur)...sorry, I digress to my years as a psych professor....anyway...she sees the hemostats and pops her head out of the tank and starts looking for food. She started off very polite..but then she started striking like crazy and then when the food was gone, she started going after my fingers. Oh, Cee Cee...

I put a towel down in Hermes' tank so that I could feed him with the hemostats again. He also went crazy going after the food, but decided he was going to be slick and try to drag the food under the towel into the substrate...so once again, I had to finish feeding him by putting the food on a dish under his hide. I will either have to move him to a feed tank or just feed him on a dish.

Seeley would not eat..again. Now I am definitely concerned. Maybe it is because he is going to shed soon. I hope so. But he really needs to eat something soon.

[guidofatherof5]

Sounds like a fun time around the Scott house.

[EasternGirl]

My mother walked by while I was feeding Cee Cee and she got scared and struck out at a piece of food that I was holding so hard that she made me jump back! :p

[infernalis]

why not get some didicated feeding totes like I use.

Never had any substrate swallowed or any impactions that way.

[katach]

Or put a hand towel down over the substrate like I do. They don't seen to mind and don't get freaked out as much as moving them to a feeding tank. Fish Bait won't eat if moved. The adults do fine, but not the baby.

[kimbosaur]

I remember reading a thread not too, too long ago where something similar was happening. Spitting up water and opening and closing of the jaw...I can't seem to find it anywhere. I'm starting to think I imagined it...

[EasternGirl]

Probably not Kimberly, as other members have mentioned to me that they have seen their snakes do this, especially if they get startled right after drinking. They both seem to be doing fine now..so I haven't called the vet yet...I'm just keeping an eye on them. If they start acting weird again...I'll call. Seeley is hiding a lot and looking very dark and dry...so I think he is going into shed mode. His eyes haven't clouded over yet, but he must be getting close.

@Kat...I did try the hand towel...actually because I had seen you mention that on your thread. But Hermes just drug the food off the hand towel and under it! Sneaky little snake!

@Wayne...do you just buy shoe totes from the dollar store?

[Light of Dae]

As for a dedicated feeding tote I'd say dollar store shoe boxes or something of the like would be perfect. No need to be fancy just functional. :) I had been using a little 'critter keeper' to feed Babs in, but now I just do bite size pieces in tank in a dish of water. I haven't bought a pair of giant tweezers to feed yet as I ain't willing to pay ten bucks for glorified chop sticks! ... hey... the dollar store sells plastic chop sticks... lol I'll buy those, just thought of that lol

[EasternGirl]

I do have a small critter keeper. I had my hermit crabs in it so I'll have to clean it out but I could use it. I stopped using it because Wayne posted a thread of a baby snake with it's neck caught in one of the plastic slats on the lid. But I wouldn't be leaving Hermes alone in it with the lid on...I'd be feeding him with hemostats in it. Either that or I'll go to the dollar store and pick up a few shoe totes. If you know anyone who works in the medical field, ask them if they have an extra pair of hemostats.

[EasternGirl]

I tried to offer Seeley some tilapia I got last night. He may have eaten a bite or two...it's very hard to tell with him because he is such a shy eater...I have to put his food on a dish and literally cover his enclosure with a towel in order to get him to eat most of the time. His eyes are cloudy now though...so he will shed soon. I put the poor little guy back in with Cee Cee for now because her humidity is up in her enclosure and she has the reptibark and many log hides that he can scratch against. He was just all sad hiding in his little cardboard box in a pile of carefresh by himself...and there isn't as much humidity or things for him to rub against in his tank. Now he is hiding under a log in Cee Cee's tank. She is funny because she gets very protective of him. If I reach in her tank for him...she will start flipping her head around frantically and usually give me a couple of her false strikes. She will follow my hand if I lift him out and start looking all over like I took her baby or something. So cute. I think Hermes may be getting geared up for a shed too. I think maybe I have learned to identify some albino signs of an impending shed. If you look at an albino in red light....which is what I keep on him in his tank, he loves it...you can see their skin get rough looking before a shed. The eyes do not look different...although I think maybe his face looks darker. I will have to compare after he sheds.

The one thing I have noticed about Hermes in comparison to my easterns is that he prefers to stay in the warm side of his enclosure at all times. He never goes to the cool side, except to explore or get water. Even when he wants to cool down a bit or hide, he just goes inside his hide on the warm side under his red lamp. The temps on his warm side stay around 82 degrees. He also spends most of his time up at the top of his hanging plant near the lamp. Has anyone else who has albinos noticed this about them?

[EasternGirl]

Hermes and I had some fun this afternoon. He is such a sweet little guy. I took him out and put him on my son's bed to explore and have some exercise. He slithered around all over the place for a long time. He slithered up onto my hands and arms and onto the pillows and climbed all over and had a fun time. Then I put a bowl of water on the bed for him and he went for a little swim. He was so cute swimming around...he loved it. I tried to get a video of him exploring the bed but I haven't figured out the video mode on my new camera yet. I will get a video of him soon though.

[guidofatherof5]

Looking forward to that video.

[mikem]

cool! can't wait to see it :)

[EasternGirl]

I finally figured out why the video mode on my camera wouldn't work...the SD card in it had way too little memory on it. I'm going to go buy a better SD card tomorrow and then I can make a Hermes video:).

[GarterGuy17]

Looking forward to it :) Might take a video myself.

[EasternGirl]

Well, I am not promising anything spectacular...I'm not great with videos. Anyway...I decided to try moving Hermes into a feed tank last night to avoid the substrate ingestion problem I've been worried about with him. Since he likes to be fed with the hemostats, I thought it would be a good way to feed him. He just flipped out the whole time he was in the feed tank because he was not in his enclosure and spent the entire time trying to figure out how to get out. He wouldn't even look at the food. I had to put him back in his enclosure and put his food on a dish on a paper towel under his hide again. Of course he then ate all of it. Now, yesterday when I had him out for a while on my son's bed...he seemed very comfortable. I kept thinking that it would be a great time to feed him...but then I kept wondering how I would get him back in his tank since you aren't supposed to pick them up after they eat....any suggestions? Does anyone take their snakes out of the enclosure and feed them? How do you then get them back into their enclosure?

[kibakiba]

I hold my babies while they eat, as long as you're extremely gentle with them, it shouldn't be a problem.

[EasternGirl]

Okay...well then maybe I will try feeding him on a blanket on the bed and see how he does. On another feeding issue, Cee Cee is becoming more and more aggressive when she eats...and actually just more aggressive and jumpy in general. I don't know what her problem is. After I fed her tonight, she was literally lunging across the tank in mid-air and flying into the glass with her face and striking and biting at my fingers through the glass. I was like omg psycho snake! It was funny but I was worried she would hurt her nose. And it was a little disturbing too. I was thinking.."what the heck has gotten into this snake?". Right before I fed her...I was changing her water and I moved her rock hide and when I went to put it back, she flipped out and lunged at the rock and struck at it. I don't know what her deal is. I weighed her again a couple of days ago and she hasn't gained any weight at all...so I don't think she's gravid.

[chris-uk]

Maybe snakey PMS? :)
Seriously though, our Eskerina has gone through short spells of being flighty when we've changed things in her viv, she's not been aggressive but very jumpy. A day later she's back to her normal self. I think some snakes don't like change, a bit like a cat really.

[kibakiba]

Snap gets like that. One day she's a sweetheart, the otehrs she just act like someone soved a spikey stick up her butt! That is most days, though.

[EasternGirl]

Now she is acting somewhat normal again...flighty still but not aggressive. In the morning, I will often go into her enclosure and pick up her slim jim can where she likes to sleep and then slowly slide her out of it into her plants. This morning when I did it, she jumped out of the tank into my lap! My dog was sitting there and she saw him and went right back into the enclosure...lol. I think the aggressiveness revolves around eating though...she's just a piggy.

[EasternGirl]

Today when I went to clean Cee Cee's enclosure, I noticed that she was making a very funny loud squeaking noise...It seems like she is wheezing a bit, and when I held her up to my ear I could hear some rattling in her chest area. I called and made an appointment for Saturday with an exotics vet in my area. I am going to go ahead and have Seeley checked as well...since he has been acting a little off for a while...and not eating much. Saturday is the soonest that I can get them there and that the exotic vet is in. Cee Cee is active and drinking...I am going to try to feed her later today, as today is her regular feeding day. I hope she is okay.

[guidofatherof5]

Keep us posted. Please.

[Light of Dae]

I just did a little internet research n sounds like the start of a respiratory infection.. number of suggestions to decrease humidity n increase heat a little... But vet visit is a good idea :) Keep us posted, hope she's ok.

[EasternGirl]

Decrease humidity, huh? Okay...how do I do that? I really think it has something to do with that stupid ecoearth...I would not recommend that stuff. I had to pull a little piece of it out of her mouth yesterday...and when I was cleaning her tank today, that stuff had the worst dust coming off of it...it was making me wheeze! I switched back to carefresh. The humidity is a little higher in my house right now because it has been warmer outside the last couple of days. I will go and turn her heat mat on...I had actually lowered the temp in her viv because she kept going to the cool side and hiding in her cool hide...and it has been warm in my house so her viv was pretty warm. But I will put the temp back up. Thanks for doing the search.

[chris-uk]

Increase your ventilation if you want to decrease humidity. I have a few old PC fans laying around which I plan to use if I ever have problems with excess heat or humidity.
If there's any sign of infection the best you can do is keep the heat up to help their immune system.

Good luck at the vets on Saturday. Keep us informed.

[EasternGirl]

I put the heat pad back on and the humidity is around 35%. She seems to be doing okay now. She has been out exploring around a bit since I changed the substrate back to carefresh. Like I said, I am going to try to feed her tonight and I will listen for the wheezing then. Hopefully she will be okay until we can get to the vet...thanks everyone for the concern and I will keep you posted.

[EasternGirl]

Okay, well Cee Cee ate...so that is a good sign. I have to feed her in her dish all the time now because she literally lunges and bites at my fingers everytime I put them in her enclosure now because she thinks they're food...and her biting is getting more aggressive, she used to just false strike...now she opens her mouth and lunges at my fingers and takes a chomp in the air at them. This all started when I started feeding her with hemostats. She now associates my fingers with food. She was going crazy trying to bite me when I was putting the paper towels down so that I could put her dish in her tank tonight. And then when she was done eating, I had to play "dodge Cee Cee" trying to get her dish back out of the tank. If I pick her up, she stops the biting attempts...she just does it if she sees my fingers entering her tank. I told her this crap has got to stop...she has to go to the vet on Saturday and she better not start biting the vet...lol. I'm hoping that if I continue feeding her on a dish again, she will eventually forget the association between my fingers and food and cut the crap. She seemed okay tonight as far as the breathing goes...she ate all of her food and slithered around for a while and then went to sleep in her slim jim can.

[guidofatherof5]

Sounds good.

[EasternGirl]

So tomorrow I take Cee Cee and Seeley to the vet...I will put them in a little plastic container that I have to take them...they will be very unhappy and nervous...but they need to go. I was wondering since it is so cold outside, is there something I can do to try to keep them warmer for the trip?

[acovert]

In Montana it was regularly in the single digits and snowing, so when I had to transport Cuddles I would heat up my car first and then rush him out to the car. I had to wrap the cage in blankets to take him out so that my Resident Supervisor wouldn't see him. That seemed to keep the heat in the cage while I brought him outside. Once we were in the car the heat was stable.

[mikem]

just warm up the car. should be fine. if you think you'll need more heat, toss a washcloth or two into the dryer and heat it up a few minutes. becareful though that they don't get too hot. put that in the container with them. but, really, having a warm car should be plenty :)

[EasternGirl]

I went out and bought a couple of those hand warmer heat packs that breeders use for shipping snakes. I figure I'll put a couple of those under the substrate in the travel container...or wrap them in a washcloth and put them on top of the substrate for them to lie against. I've been trying to keep Cee Cee warm since she may have a respiratory infection.

[mikem]

how'd the vet trip go?

[EasternGirl]

Oh...sorry..I should have posted here..I posted in the Oh So Quiet thread...I had to postpone the vet trip because it snowed here. The appointment has been changed to Tuesday afternoon. Cee Cee is doing well. I haven't seen anymore signs of a respiratory infection...she hasn't made any wheezing sounds since the other day, and I have been keeping her heat up and her humidity down. Although, this is something that comes and goes with her...so I definitely want to get her checked anyway. My concern at the moment is Seeley...I have noticed over the last week that he is really showing signs of malnutrition...he went for months without eating for some reason, and what little I have been able to get him to eat...he will only eat fish fillet...so not only am I concerned about anorexia at this point, but I am sure he is vitamin deficient as well. He did start eating a little fish again the other day...but he is looking very thin at this point. I am hoping the vet can figure out why he is not eating and perhaps give me some multivitamins for him. I worry that I may have to start tube feeding him...especially if I have to put vitamin powder on his food, because he always seems to smell it and refuses food with supplement on it. I am going to go now and make some of Wayne's garter goulash...see if I can get him to eat.

[EasternGirl]

I'm very happy right now because Seeley ate a whole dish of garter goulash...minus the reptomin...I forgot to put that in, so it was just salmon and pinky...but he ate...and he ate pinky, which means he got some calcium and vitamins that he really needed! I'm going to start offering him fish and pinky mix every other day until he plumps up some. I'll probably throw some worms in the mix too. Hermes ate too...but that is no big news. Cee Cee doesn't get fed again until tomorrow. Maybe I should wait and feed her until after the vet trip on Tues...yep...I better wait so she has time to digest her food. She just ate a couple of days ago.

[guidofatherof5]

Nice going Seeley.
Pound down the groceries boy.

[EasternGirl]

Cee Cee was jealous and giving me the "feed me" face...poking her head out of her enclosure and being so sweet...had to give her a little worm treat.

[EasternGirl]

Oh...I almost forgot...as I was telling Steve on Skype...I haven't forgotten about the Hermes video. I tried to make one...but I had to have my son shoot the video while I made sure that Hermes didn't slither off somewhere...and my son's video shooting...well let's just say that I am not going to put the video up and cause members to get seasick trying to watch a video in which the picture moves all over the place and half of the video has nothing to do with the snake anyway! Lol... I will have to keep working on trying to get a decent video...it may take a while!

[kibakiba]

Haha. Gotta love kids with cameras. I guess I'm grateful you didn't stick it up this minute, since I'm dizzy and sick to begin with... Hah. Can't wait to see little Hermes!

[EasternGirl]

He's so big compared to what he looked like when I first got him...I'll have to take a pic of him...wait...here is a two second video...just so you can see what he looks like with his tummy full of food on my son's SpongeBob blanket...http://i687.photobucket.com/albums/vv235/Marnie313/th_002.jpg (http://s687.photobucket.com/albums/vv235/Marnie313/?action=view&current=002.mp4)

[guidofatherof5]

That is a full belly.
Someone will be sleeping in late tomorrow. :D

[mikem]

dreaming of a krabby patty!

[EasternGirl]

Oh that's nothing...that video was actually a couple of days ago. Here is a pic from tonight after he ate his pinky and fish mix...you'll have to forgive the glare...I was taking the pic in the dark by the red bulb....He's hiding his head because he's ashamed of how fat he looks...:p.

3918

[kibakiba]

That surely has to be the definition of a happy snake. :D

[EasternGirl]

Seeley just gobbled up an entire worm! Little man is on a roll now...The way he gobbled that worm, I would say he's been holding out for worms...that is probably why he hasn't been eating. I just didn't have any worms for a while. Cee Cee of course ate two...now she is big and fat and will probably puke worms on the vet tomorrow. Lol... Poor vet.

[guidofatherof5]

Way to go Seeley. Worms are good. ;)

[PINJOHN]

Way to go Seeley. Worms are good. ;)
I am such a keen angler....I only married my wife because she has worms :D

[EasternGirl]

Well...it's off to the vet today! I will post back later this afternoon or this evening and let everyone know how things turn out!

[Bart]

And I can't lay my hands on nightcrawlers. :[ Mysteriously, I can't get them in fish bait shops nowadays.

[EasternGirl]

Hmm...that's no good. Can't get them shipped to you? Getting ready to leave for the vet in a few...

[EasternGirl]

I am very excited to tell you all about Cee Cee and Seeley's visit to the vet. I really liked the vet a lot...I was very impressed with him. His name was Tom Wilkerson and the hospital was Windcrest Animal Hospital in Wilmington, Delaware. He had an extensive knowledge of reptiles and has been keeping reptiles himself since he was a child. He knew a great deal about garters. He was very nice and enjoyed discussing the snakes with me for a long time. He was very thorough. He was even laughing when Cee Cee musked him so bad the entire room smelled and then tried to bite him because she did not like having her lungs listened too. He talked to Cee Cee and Seeley and was very gentle with them. He said Cee Cee has what is probably a chronic respiratory problem that will come and go. It can happen with wild caught garters. At this point we will just monitor her because treating her will involve injections that I will have to administer and she may be gravid. He was uncertain about that without an x-ray or ultrasound...which I did not want to pay for. She does have a little bit of discharge that he could see when he opened her mouth...but nothing too bad at this point. He wants me to continue with the increased heat and lower humidity and call him if she gets worse. Seeley is fine...his off-food phase probably had to do with the winter time. He recommends a varied diet of pinkies, fish and worms like we do...although he says repcal is good to give additional calcium because pinkies don't actually provide that much because the bones do not have a lot of calcium because of the age of the pinkies. He does say it is difficult to give many snakes supplements because they do not like them though and a varied diet should be good enough. He said you have to be careful with multivitamins because you could give too many vitamins and cause vitamin toxicity. He does not recommend whole live fish bought in pet stores because you can not trust the fish. He said he worked in a pet store when he was younger and he would never feed fish from a pet store to any of his reptiles. He also talked about problems with getting humidity up...needing to mist often, being careful not to get the substrate moist, not feeding live prey...all the things we discuss on here. Like I said, he knew his stuff! I would highly recommend him. He will be my garter vet from now on. The visit wasn't cheap of course...but I only take the snakes in if I feel it is necessary. They did give me a discount since I brought in two snakes.

[guidofatherof5]

Thanks for reporting back Marnie.
Sounds like all in all it was a very good visit.
I hope Cee Cee gets on the mend soon.

[EasternGirl]

Thanks! She seems to be doing a lot better than she was...she was full of spit and vinegar at the vet today! :)

[mikem]

thanks for the update! good to hear everything is going well :)

[angrygamer]

I am very excited to tell you all about Cee Cee and Seeley's visit to the vet...


I'm glad you had a good experience at the vet. My vet experience wasn't so good. The vet was nice, but I got a bit of misinformation from her and her communication skills left something to be desired. First off, she said goldfish were OK if they were from a reputable source and recommended a local pet store. Then she didn't like the aspen and suggested newspaper.

I was trying to get an answer as to the proper humidity, and she went into this story about how she lived in Oregon when she was a kid and she was riding her bike when it was raining or something, and she found this ditch where there were a bunch of garter snakes, blah blah blah, she went into it for so long that the subject was changed in the middle of it. I don't know, it was weird. By then I really lost focus on the questions I was trying to ask. We got back to her story somehow, the point she was trying to make was that, in her opinion, Garters can handle a lot of humidity. That didn't completely answer the question I was trying to ask pertaining to the highs and the lows but got so distracted by all of this lost my train of thought.

I tried to talk to her about a few of these points, but in the middle of talking to her I felt sort of stupid by saying, "...well I heard from the internet that...". In fact I brought up the issue of parasites in goldfish and she just said that if they were from a reputable source it was fine.

She also said snakes need a UVB light for their D3, which is sort of unheard of but I bought one anyway.

So I am just now putting all of this together upon reflecting about my experience after reading yours, and I am going to find another vet next week. She is listed as an exotic animal vet but somehow pretty much ALL of her advice CONTRACTS proper care for Garter snakes.

I mean, I knew I was going to have some questions on the way home. My stepmom was with me, and we talked about it and she said that I can always call the vet if I had more questions.

heh, sorry Marnie I don't mean to derail your thread. I hope people learn from this though.

I was just so intimidated, and I was sitting there thinking, "well what is more credible sounding? A licensed vet or "people from the internet"?"

She also sexed Glyph by visualization alone and classified him as a Radix, and I still wonder about that.

[BUSHSNAKE]

Im curious, was she correct on the sex and species of your snake?

[PINJOHN]

Very much enjoyed reading these two very different reports on a visit to the vet, both well written giving us a good insight into you opposite experiences.
As to your question about who to trust, my opinion is if the internet people you refer to are the members of this site then they get my vote over the vast majority of money making machines called vets.

[Light of Dae]

I'm glad you had a good experience at the vet. My vet experience wasn't so good. The vet was nice, but I got a bit of misinformation from her and her communication skills left something to be desired. First off, she said goldfish were OK if they were from a reputable source and recommended a local pet store. Then she didn't like the aspen and suggested newspaper.

I think your vet was just full of herself... She needs to learn a few things from Marnies vet. Goldfish are not OK, we("People from the internet") know this, she probably thinks they eat bugs too!


In fact I brought up the issue of parasites in goldfish and she just said that if they were from a reputable source it was fine.


I think you should inform her on 'Thiamise" (however you spell it... stoopid sexyladi, I mean sexdaily... sexydial... isexlady... dailysex... ladiesxy... dyslexia! Stupid dyslexia!)


I was just so intimidated, and I was sitting there thinking, "well what is more credible sounding? A licensed vet or "people from the internet"?"

"Credible sounding" Depends if you are talking about their title or what comes out of their mouth. Sure your vet sounds all credible with her diplomas n certifications n her veterinary license .... up until she opens her mouth n tells you that load of BS!
We the "People of the internet" on the other hand don't sound like we would be credible at all, I mean almost EVERYONE knows how much BS is out on the internet... Up until you've read what we've wrote.

[angrygamer]

*heh, I meant CONDRADICTS not CONTRACTS in my first post. Too late to edit!


Im curious, was she correct on the sex and species of your snake?

I'm still not sure, I posted some pics some time back, but I couldn't get him stay still enough...

When she sexed him, I asked her if she needed to probe him, and she said that should could tell by visualization.

As far as the species goes, someone on here thought he was a Wandering, and for the life of me I can't find the post.

However, after looking up pics of t.radix and t.vagrans comparatively to answer your question, he still looks more like a wandering.



Very much enjoyed reading these two very different reports on a visit to the vet, both well written giving us a good insight into you opposite experiences.
As to your question about who to trust, my opinion is if the internet people you refer to are the members of this site then they get my vote over the vast majority of money making machines called vets.

Well I mean there were things like using aspen and the danger of too high of a humidity to Garters that you all are familiar with but all of this just seemed to be in left field to her.

I have read up on a lot of resources on the 'net, this forum being one of them. When I referred to "people on the internet", heh, I did mean you guys in part but don't take any offense; I was thinking about what that sounds like through her ears.


Part of her bio reads:



Dr. xxx is a long tenured veterinarian with an interest in Chinese herbology, homeopathy, and accupuncture for small animals. She obtained her degree at xxx State. Dr. xxx loves a good cup of strong coffee and collecting gecko figures.


At any rate, one of my old Unreal Tournament and Call of Duty 4 clanmates is a vet. I haven't talked to him in a while, but I PM'd him this morning about picking out a good exotic animal vet. He might be able to give me some advice. Heck, he might even know someone.

[angrygamer]

"Credible sounding" Depends if you are talking about their title or what comes out of their mouth. Sure your vet sounds all credible with her diplomas n certifications n her veterinary license .... up until she opens her mouth n tells you that load of BS!
We the "People of the internet" on the other hand don't sound like we would be credible at all, I mean almost EVERYONE knows how much BS is out on the internet... Up until you've read what we've wrote.

Yeah again, I apologize, I was just trying to relay to you what it probably sounds like to her. I knew that when I left her office I was going to need to take some time to think about her advice...and this is where we are.

I'm glad it wasn't an emergency.

[kibakiba]

I think you should inform her on 'Thiamise" (however you spell it... stoopid sexyladi, I mean sexdaily... sexydial... isexlady... dailysex... ladiesxy... dyslexia! Stupid dyslexia!)


What? from vets to sexy ladies and sex dials? Haha. Love it.

[EasternGirl]

I know what you are saying about the internet...as there is all kinds of false info out there. I referenced our forum several times when speaking to my vet...I think the validity of the info that I was citing spoke for itself. He seemed very impressed with how much I knew about garters. It's not easy to find vets that really know reptiles, especially garters...I was actually shocked by how much this guy knew. But being a licensed vet doesn't mean anything...I mean think about all of the "people doctors" out there that don't have a clue what they are talking about. I think my vet's knowledge actually came from the fact that he has owned reptiles himself since he was a child...experience counts way more than book knowledge...which is exactly why this forum is far more reputable and has more expert advice than most vets out there.

[PINJOHN]

Dr. xxx loves a good cup of strong coffee and collecting gecko figures.

Hey she's a coffee fiend i take back every thing i said about her.....:D

[EasternGirl]

That bio on her kind of cracks me up. Like telling me she likes a good cup of coffee and collecting reptile figures is going to convince me she's a good vet. Well I like a good cup of coffee and I like collecting snake figures...can I get my vet degree now?

[chris-uk]

Part of her bio reads:



Dr. xxx is a long tenured veterinarian with an interest in Chinese herbology, homeopathy, and accupuncture for small animals. She obtained her degree at xxx State. Dr. xxx loves a good cup of strong coffee and collecting gecko figures.



Any vet that believes that homeopathy is an appropriate treatment for animals is a vet I would actively avoid. I think there is an arguable benefit in human, but how many animals will respond to a placebo? Chinese herbology... there's some benefits, but most what is good in herbology science has turned into medicine, what's left is some nice, natural (but less effective) medicine and smelly bowl of potpourri. Accupuncture I give more credence for musculoskeletal treatment, it's great for treating knotted muscles and it's surprisingly relaxing.
None of these alternative "medicines" have a lot of credibility for treating animals as a replacement for proper treatments. Nope, I'd avoid a vet that put that in their bio.

[kibakiba]

I love natural medicines (I react badly to most pills and medications) but I would never expect an animal to react well to something like that. I would expect it to make them sick, or even make it worse in some cases... Sure, some things could work but you know...

[EasternGirl]

I agree with you Chris...but just for the record...homeopathic remedies are not placebos...they are minute amounts of toxins that stimulate the immune system to react against the particular toxin. So for example, if you have an allergic reaction, the homeopathic remedy would be to take histamine...so that your immune system is stimulated to fight the histamine and produce antihistamines. I studied natural medicine and homeopathy for many years. But I do not know how beneficial it would be for animals....I agree with you on that.

[chris-uk]

I understand the principles of homeopathy and had some treatment for allergies as a kid. The science doesn't stack up though. The "minute amounts" of allergen is diluted to such a degree that mathematically there is none left in the water - something that homeopathic practitioners don't dispute, but explain by making up some pseudoscience where water has a "molecular memory". Homeopathic remedies work if you believe they will, so they are a placebo and a chat with a "healthcare professional" who listens, is kind and understanding - the combination adds up to improved health through psychosomatic means.
I know that my allergies got better when better nasal spray and antihistamine treatments became available, the homeopathic treatments as a child did nothing for me, the tablet and nasal spray each day now allows me to live with a cat I'm allergic to. Saying that, if homeopathy works for someone I say each to their own. Alternative medicine for animals is nothing short of quackery and a vet that endorsed it should be struck off.

[EasternGirl]

I hear you...but don't you think it is comparable to a virus entering the immune system and stimulating the antibodies to recognize that virus when it reenters the system again...or perhaps a better example would be similar to a vaccine in which a dead or attuenuated live virus is introduced to the system to stimulate the immune response to fight that virus? Most of the viruses used in vaccines are actually dead because attenuated live viruses are too dangerous to use...yet they still initiate a response...so, in theory couldn't a minute amount of a toxin do the same thing? I'm just saying this for debate sake and because I question whether or not homeopathy works myself...I have actually had much better results with allopathic medicine than I have with homeopathic remedies. And I wouldn't take my pets to a vet that used homeopathic treatment. What do you think about allergy shots? I think that allergy shots basically follow the same principles as homeopathy...and I have been getting shots...I am starting to question whether or not they are working at all and if I should continue to get them...

[angrygamer]

For clarity's sake, she's a regular vet. I think part of her bio is supposed to read like, "Tom enjoys Whitewater rafting on the weekends and long walks". The part that amused me though was the "acupuncture for small animals".

As far as homeopathic remedies go, my stepmom has been into them for a long time, so I have tried them for a lot of them for different things. What I have found from them is that they work once or twice and then they quit working. I don't know how much of that is from the placebo effect. For instance, I took melatonin to help with sleep once, and I got the best night of sleep that I had in years. Melatonin is known to be a mild hypnotic, among other things. It worked the first and second times I took it, and then it quit working. I kept taking it for another month and it didn't have any effect. At all.

[chris-uk]

Drifting off-topic a bit with the homeopathy discussion...
My reason for raising it was because I'd use a belief in homeopathy to judge a vet's ability to care for my animals. I have a quite cold scientific outlook, and as far as I'm concerned veterinary medicine is a science. Believing in some things (e.g. homeopathy) requires a suspension of scientific method, and a willingness to do that compromises a vets ability to give the best care to my animals. As it was, the vet that angrygamer visited was a lousy herp vet, the bit in the bio was just the icing on the cake. It's just another factor I'd look for if I was selecting a vet.

[Stefan-A]

Just for the record, homeopathy is a scam. Regardless of how it is claimed to work, it simply does not.

[chris-uk]

Just for the record, homeopathy is a scam. Regardless of how it is claimed to work, it simply does not.

The direct wording of my last couple of posts. :) I just worry too much about offending people who choose to believe in different things to me.

[Stefan-A]

The direct wording of my last couple of posts. :) I just worry too much about offending people who choose to believe in different things to me.
There are moments when I worry about that, but those pass quickly. Usually I just leave things unsaid.

[angrygamer]

Drifting off-topic a bit with the homeopathy discussion...
My reason for raising it was because I'd use a belief in homeopathy to judge a vet's ability to care for my animals. I have a quite cold scientific outlook, and as far as I'm concerned veterinary medicine is a science. Believing in some things (e.g. homeopathy) requires a suspension of scientific method, and a willingness to do that compromises a vets ability to give the best care to my animals. As it was, the vet that angrygamer visited was a lousy herp vet, the bit in the bio was just the icing on the cake. It's just another factor I'd look for if I was selecting a vet.

I don't remember if I read her bio before or after the appointment. Either way I didn't give it too much weight, if any.

[EasternGirl]

Oh...well don't worry about offending me...I don't get offended that easily...I mean, unless you call me a rotten so and so...but I get that everyone has their own beliefs. Like I said, I don't know if I think homeopathy actually works either. Melatonin is different than Homeopathy...angrygamer...melatonin is a chemical that is naturally produced in the body. It's the chemical that regulates your sleep cycle. That would fall under herbal medicine, not homeopathy. I actually take melatonin for sleep and so does my son...works really well for me.

Okay...back to on topic...I am worried about Hermes...he ate almost four days ago now and his bulge hasn't gone down. I can't see any signs that he has an impaction...nothing looks weird around the cloaca area but he should not still look all fat from eating at this point...could he be impacted?

[angrygamer]

Yikes, that's weird. Page 74 of "What's Wrong with my Snake" discusses constipation. I couldn't find anything on impaction.

Still looking.

[EasternGirl]

Funny you said that because I was just thinking that I read something on constipation in that book. I will look at it here in a bit. Steve told me to give him a warm bath...I think I read something about obstructions and impactions in the book...there is a little something on page 79. Steve said if there isn't any other evidence...like inflammation at the vent and so forth, I shouldn't worry too much at this point. I have trouble seeing the poop in his enclosure since he is albino and I only have a red light on him. I'm going to take his tank down and look through the substrate to see if he has been pooping normally and give him a warm bath tonight and go from there.

[EasternGirl]

Okay...so I gave Hermes a warm bath, which he was not too thrilled about. After that I took his substrate out of his tank...did not see much poop at all. I replaced it with paper towels like Steve suggested to me today on skype...so that I can monitor his bowel movements...I thought he would not be happy about the paper towels, but interestingly, he seems to like them better than the carefresh...he has been happily exploring all over since I put them in the tank. I also noticed he obliged and pooped right away on them. He looked a little thinner so I went ahead and put some worms in a dish under his hide...I think he ate them...I have to go check in a bit. He looks as though he is trying to get his shed started...he keeps rubbing his chin on things in his enclosure...which is good, because I think he is due for a shed.

I think Cee Cee is having more and more trouble seeing...and I am starting to wonder if maybe she is up there in years or something. She kept missing the worms when I was feeding her with the hemostats and hitting her mouth on them...now I am going to have to watch and make sure she didn't hurt her mouth. She was acting very odd when I first went to feed her...like she couldn't find me...she was looking all over her tank like crazy for me...I had my hand stuck in the front of her tank like I always do with the food...it was very weird. I also think I saw her blow some bubbles out of her nose. Perhaps I should call the vet tomorrow. Maybe the respiratory infection is getting worse? I didn't hear any wheezing...

Seeley ate again...he ate more worms. I'm glad he is eating again.

[guidofatherof5]

All in all a good report. Thanks for the update Marnie.

[kibakiba]

Perhaps she was excited about the food, Snap needs the food right in front of her with at least 3 or 4 tries before she can calm herself and grab it.

[EasternGirl]

It was a really odd thing...she got all excited and started darting around all over her enclosure...she was climbing up the back of the enclosure...and then she started climbing her plant and up the side of the enclosure right next to the opening in the front where my hand was, pressing her face against the glass on the side. I kept shaking the hemostats at her and making noises with my mouth to try to get her attention. She did this for about 5 minutes. Finally I put the worm right in front of her nose and she grabbed at it but she kept missing it and hitting her mouth into the hemostats. I'm not sure why she was blowing bubbles out of her nose either. I figure maybe I should call the vet and ask him about that.

[kibakiba]

I believe that's a sign of an RI.

[EasternGirl]

The bubbles? Well the vet said she has a respiratory infection but that we should just watch it unless it gets really bad because treating it would involve me injecting her...which will be difficult, and if she is gravid could be dangerous for the babies. Do you think I should call him...do you think it's getting worse? She isn't doing any open mouth breathing...

[EasternGirl]

Well, I just picked Cee Cee up and her chest sounded very crackly...so I called the vet and we decided it would be best to go ahead and start her on antibiotics. I don't care about a potential risk to babies at this point...I just care about Cee Cee not getting any worse. This means I have to give her injections every 3 days. I have to go over to the vet tomorrow (or tonight if I can make it up there) and the vet techs are going to show me how to give the injections. This ought to be interesting...giving injections to a snake. Cee Cee is going to bite the living crap out of someone...and she is not going to be very happy with me at all after all of this. Poor Ceecers...

[chris-uk]

The antibiotics sound like the best option Marnie. As you say, the injections are a risk if she's gravid, but not treating the RI is a risk as well.
I'm sure the injections aren't anything you can't handle, as long as you can do them quickly and hit the right spot you should be fine. Good luck.

[EasternGirl]

Thanks. The vet said I will need someone to help me hold her...which is very true, she is a big girl and does not like being held in the first place. This is where it gets interesting because I am the only one in my family that holds the snakes. Thankfully my mother says she will help. She is willing to try to get past her fear for the sake of Cee Cee getting better which means a lot to me. I better make sure we are standing over a couch or something for when she screams and drops Cee Cee though...lol.

[EasternGirl]

Oh...wanted to mention that a friend pointed out to me that humidity should be increased during a respiratory infection not decreased. I was actually wondering about that, as it makes sense...thinking about it...when we have respiratory problems we increase humidity. It was recommended that I put Cee Cee in a shed box and let her sit in the humidity for a while to clear out some of the mucus and stuff...and also to increase the humidity in her enclosure. I already increased the humidity in her enclosure. I will prepare a shed box for her in a little while. Thank you very much to the friend who recommended this.

[angrygamer]

I'm sure you know this, but in case you don't I heard it is good to crank the heat up on the warm side of the viv. I'd say 5 - 10 degrees during an RI.

[EasternGirl]

Yes...thank you...I have been keeping the heat mat and her basking bulb on...and I swapped the 40 watt bulb I usually use for basking with a 60 watt...the thermometer is showing an ambient temp of about 84 on the warm side. Now...do not ask me why I do stupid things sometimes...I don't know. But I got the shed box all ready and I went to put Cee Cee in it...I had the box up on my dining room table. I should have had it on the floor...knowing how she would react...when I went to put her in, she flipped out and jumped out and off the table and fell to the floor and started to slither away...I caught her...but should I worry she may have hurt herself? I put her in the shed box for a little while after that....she hated it of course. But, it was nice and humid in there. Now she is back in her enclosure all freaked out wondering why I am torturing her...poor Ceecers :o.

[kibakiba]

My babies have fallen from about my chest height, and they were fine. I'm sure she'll be fine.

[angrygamer]

Glyph slithered off my bed once and it was a three foot drop. He seems ok.

[EasternGirl]

Okay...she seems okay. She was flailing all over when she fell of course. I picked her up and ran her through my fingers...she seemed to move alright and didn't have any noticeable injuries. Poor Cee Cee...all this that she is going through and now she has to go back to the vet...she does not like strangers handling her...then she has to get injections. She is so skiddish to begin with...I just hope the stress doesn't make her worse.

[chris-uk]

One of our checkered babies fell from a first floor landing onto laminate floor in the hallway, so about a 3.5 metre drop. She was fine from the drop, I'd like to report that it did her no long term harm but it was Angua and she was our FTT. :(
I can't imagine a fall from table height will harm a garter unless they fall onto something awkward.

[EasternGirl]

I think she's fine...just went into her enclosure to do a spot clean and she was as fiesty as ever...false striking at my fingers as if to tell me to get the heck out of her home and stop messing things up! She is very restless lately...she is all over her enclosure all the time, climbing the walls and everytime I open it, she is determined to climb out. I will be driving up to the vet tomorrow around 1pm to have them show me how to do the first antibiotic injection and bring the medicine home with me.

[chris-uk]

She's going to be a happy snake when you jab her. Or she may not even notice. Let us know how you get on with the first injection.

[EasternGirl]

Oh I have a feeling she is going to try to bite me! She tried to bite the vet when he was listening to her breathing with the stethoscope. Unless she doesn't notice like you said...but she does not like to be held still and messed with...so she will probably be nipping at us just because we are restraining her. And the musk...that will be quite smelly. I will definitely let you guys know how it goes.

[EasternGirl]

Question for you guys...normally I keep a 40 watt basking bulb on during the day in Cee Cee's enclosure...sometimes adding a heat mat on very cold days. At night I use either a 40 watt night bulb or a heat mat on very cold nights. During her illness, I have been using a 60 watt basking bulb with the heat mat during the day to increase temps to about 84-86 on the warm side of the tank. Should I keep the 40 watt night bulb and the heat mat on at night as well? I have been turning the mat off at night to allow a temp drop, but since I should be keeping the temp up for her while she is sick...should I keep the temp up at night too?

[guidofatherof5]

Where is the heat mat located? In her main hide area?

[EasternGirl]

On the warm side...I have the heat mat on the warm side with the option of a red bulb at night or a basking bulb during the day overhead...she has a log hide directly over the heat mat...and substrate between the log and the mat. Sometimes she lays in the log and sometimes she goes under the log if she wants to get warmer. On the cool side she also has a hide...her favorite slim jim can, which she goes to sleep in when she wants to be cool.

[guidofatherof5]

I would leave the mat on at night(all the time) while she is battling this illness.
Just my opinion.

[EasternGirl]

Thanks! I will leave it on...she seems to be happy in the warmth and humidity. Hopefully it is helping. Time will tell I guess...and hopefully the meds will help.

[guidofatherof5]

Many positive vibes and prayers headed your way.

[EasternGirl]

Getting ready to leave for the vet in a little bit to get Cee Cee's first shot administered. I'm a bit nervous. I hope she doesn't have a bad reaction to the antibiotics or anything like that. I hope I'm making the right call with this.

[EasternGirl]

Okay...I'm back from the vet...Cee Cee did fine with her injection after the vet tech squeezed her neck so hard her eyeballs almost popped out of her skull. I'm not exactly sure what was going on there...the vet tech was very nice and she told me she had a garter snake when she was younger...I don't know if she had an aggressive garter, or if she misunderstood me when I told her that Cee Cee might get nippy when we gave her the shot and thought that I was saying that Cee Cee was a biter in general. But she took Cee Cee from me and immediately started holding her like you would hold an aggressive rattler or something...behind the head firmly, very firmly...Cee Cee immediately musked the crap out of her (good Cee Cee) and the whole room reeked...and then she tied herself up into a pretzel...I've never seen anything like it. She was musking and peeing and in a pretzel and looked like she couldn't breathe...and I said to the vet tech..."Um...do you think she is getting hurt like that?"...So the vet tech said "I think you're turning blue...do you need a break?" to Cee Cee and put her down. Next, she decided to try holding her on the table...that went much better. She still held her head but not so firmly. She showed me how to give the injections...I had to practice a couple of times with saline...poor Cee Cee. She didn't actually seem to mind the shots at all...she just didn't like being held like that. The poor thing needs a bath now...and definitely some treats. I think the vet tech needs a bath too...but she deserves to stink for a while. I know she wasn't trying to be mean but seriously...she wasn't holding a cobra...jeesh!

[guidofatherof5]

Just shows this person hasn't had many good experiences with snakes and won't as long as that's the handling she's going to do.
She needs to get bit by a garter snake to realize she's over reacting.

[angrygamer]

"...So the vet tech said "I think you're turning blue...do you need a break?" to Cee Cee and put her down.

Seriously? grr...

[chris-uk]

I think I would have suggested that I hold, she demonstrates the injection. I can't imagine our vet, or the veterinary nurses holding a snake that tight.
I'm still waiting for the "bite badge of honour", I've even started feeding Lacrimosa occassionally by hand rather than tongs, when she's on form she can launch herself almost a foot to take her food. :) Seriously though, when I've been giving her leftovers from the others and I've forgotten the tongs once or twice I've got her to take a pinky and a piece of trout from my hand, she can be gentle as well and I think I can see what sort of mood she's in. If she's in hunting mode my fingers aren't going to be touching the food she's about to eat.

[EasternGirl]

Well...if she had continued on like that, I would have made her give Cee Cee to me. But after I pointed out that she looked like she was hurting her, she put her down on the table and didn't hold her neck so tightly anymore. I think she misunderstood and thought that I was saying that Cee Cee was going to bite being held by her, when I meant that she might bite when we injected her. Anyway...the other vet tech that I worked with the other day and the vet did not hold Cee Cee like that at all...they just picked her up like I would and let her slither around. I will certainly make sure that if I have to have that tech again that I make sure she understands that Cee Cee is not going to bite her and that she does not have to be restrained...if it's still a problem, I'll request another tech. I just gave my girl a worm treat for her ordeal today. Seeley decided he would take some worms from the hemostats too! Now I have to give Cee Cee another injection in 3 days...every three days for a total of 10 injections. My mother is going to attempt holding her for me. I will look at the name of the medicine and post it for you guys in a bit. Have to go watch the X Games with my son...

[PINJOHN]

I don't know how much of that is from the placebo effect. For instance, I took melatonin to help with sleep once, and I got the best night of sleep that I had in years. Melatonin is known to be a mild hypnotic, among other things. It worked the first and second times I took it, and then it quit working. I kept taking it for another month and it didn't have any effect. At all.
I take melatonin on a regular basis and i think you may have misunderstood its function, melatonin is a natural hormone produced by us all and helps set the rhythm of your sleep, science has learned how to produce it synthetically with the purpose of fighting the effects of jet lag, it's not a sleeping tablet and does not put you to sleep, instead its intention is to reset your sleep pattern when you are already sleeping, with my job i keep unusual hours but still need to lead a family life as far as possible hence my use of this substance, not as easy for me as i would like as it is only available in the UK on prescription not over the counter like in the states but i can usually get relatives to bring me some back from their vacation the best thing about it is there is no side effects ...have to sign off now as i have a doctors appointment, i need to speak to him about this extra head growing under my arm...:eek:

[EasternGirl]

I kind of said that...lol...okay not really...but that is absolutely correct, John....I just said that it is not homeopathic and a chemical produced by our body or something to that effect...your description of it was much more accurate. I have used it for a couple of years now and so has my son. I take it because sleeping pills make me too groggy the next day and they are addictive, etc. I had no idea you could only get it by prescription over there...that's a shame...guess I wouldn't be allowed to ship it to you then, huh?

[PINJOHN]

I kind of said that...lol...okay not really...but that is absolutely correct, John....I just said that it is not homeopathic and a chemical produced by our body or something to that effect...your description of it was much more accurate. I have used it for a couple of years now and so has my son. I take it because sleeping pills make me too groggy the next day and they are addictive, etc. I had no idea you could only get it by prescription over there...that's a shame...guess I wouldn't be allowed to ship it to you then, huh?
thanks for that offer Marnie i think its ok to get it through the post but i have a plentiful supply at the moment enough to last till i find my self back in your fantastic country next year ...what may interest you ladies is the claims made about regular use of melatonin i don't know how much is just hype but its claimed to keep you youthful,to give you healthy skin/ hair,in fact the only thing it doesn't do is make your breakfast

[EasternGirl]

I've heard there are also some anti-cancer benefits...but I don't know how true that is. I do look rather young for my age...

[angrygamer]

I take melatonin on a regular basis and i think you may have misunderstood its function, melatonin is a natural hormone produced by us all and helps set the rhythm of your sleep, science has learned how to produce it synthetically with the purpose of fighting the effects of jet lag, it's not a sleeping tablet and does not put you to sleep, instead its intention is to reset your sleep pattern when you are already sleeping, with my job i keep unusual hours but still need to lead a family life as far as possible hence my use of this substance, not as easy for me as i would like as it is only available in the UK on prescription not over the counter like in the states but i can usually get relatives to bring me some back from their vacation the best thing about it is there is no side effects ...have to sign off now as i have a doctors appointment, i need to speak to him about this extra head growing under my arm...:eek:

I may have, my dad takes it on a regular basis so I hear about it. It's what he recommends every time I complain about a sleep problem.

WebMD does list it for jet lag as well as insomnia.

And I will say this: it did affect my sleep somehow, like I said, I got the best sleep that I've had in years. To more accurately describe it, the sleep was much deeper than ever and the quality was great. I don't know if that's what the intended effect was.

As I previously said as well, my experience with many homeopathic/herbal remedies is that they work well the first or second time I use them and then they quit working.

This discussion has inspired me to try it again.

"We now return to our regularly scheduled thread."

[EasternGirl]

All the snakies were fed last night. Cee Cee had some salmon and a pinky. She was doing that weird thing she does again in which she acts as if she can not see at all. She was searching the back wall of her tank for the food and actually trying to bite the glass wall on the back of the tank. I had to keep reaching in the tank and bopping her on the nose with the food so she would know it was there and take it from me. The odd thing is...other times, she seems to see just fine. I can't figure out what is going on...is she just crazy? Or does she have some kind of sight problem that comes and goes? Very, very odd. Anyway...she is going to get a little bath today...she still smells horrible from her musking frenzy yesterday.

Seeley ate some salmon last night and I think Hermes ate a little bit of salmon and pinky...but I'm not certain about that. I really think Hermes should have shed again by now. I've had him for two months and he shed once...about 3 weeks after I got him, I believe.

[EasternGirl]

Cee Cee and Seeley are very goofy. I put them in together and put one of those jungle vines in Cee Cee's enclosure. I thought they might like climbing on it...but of course, instead, they have been hiding in the corner all night glaring at it like an alien invaded their home. I got a cute pic of them hiding out in the fake log together...

4009

[guidofatherof5]

Very nice photo.

[EasternGirl]

Thanks Steve.

[EasternGirl]

Will be attempting Cee Cee's first "at home" injection with my mother holding her later this afternoon...planning on smelling of musk for the remainder of the day.

[EasternGirl]

Giving an injection to a very skiddish snake who is wiggling all over the place is not an easy task...especially when the person holding the snake has never held a snake before. I managed to give Cee Cee the injection...but I think I stuck the syringe in a bit too far...I hope I didn't hurt her. She felt it...because she wiggled...but surprisingly she did not musk me or try to bite at all. My good girl never musks me...only vets and vet techs...lol. Now the poor thing is all scared and breathing hard...sitting in her tank. I'll give her some worms when she calms down.

[guidofatherof5]

Might try placing a dark cloth over her while she's being held. Leaving only the area you need to work with out.
It might help calm her down.

[EasternGirl]

She wasn't actually too bad. She just didn't like being restrained and we did have to restrain her to give her the shot for obvious reasons. I put her down on a towel and calmed her a little and then showed my mother how to hold her behind her head and on her body and then put the needle in as quickly as I could. It's just one of those things that takes practice...and she wiggled the area where I put the needle in, which made it more difficult. I think next time it will be easier. But I will try that, thanks Steve. I just hope I didn't hurt her...it's difficult to find the exact area to put the needle in and then to get the needle in and give the shot all the while trying to keep the snake from moving.

[EasternGirl]

I just had to perform an emergency "shedectomy" on Hermes...right after he ate a whole bunch of worms. I went to get him..and his dish..out from his hide where he eats, and he was in there with his shed down around his neck...poor little guy. I put him in the shed box...but it started coming off in pieces..so I picked him up and manually removed the rest by using a washcloth to gently rub him and feel to make sure nothing was retained anywhere. Poor Hermes...I don't know how well he is going to digest his worms now...

[guidofatherof5]

Shedectomy I like that. :D

[EasternGirl]

Just gave Cee Cee her second injection. Poor thing has her eyes all clouded over because she is getting ready to shed...so she was extra skiddish and had to have her shot. I put the towel over her like you suggested, Steve...and it did help. But, she always cringes her skin when I stick the syringe in and jerks and then the needle always goes in a little too far. After, she was doing some open mouth breathing...but I think that is more do to the fact that she was upset and her nares are blocked from the impending shed, than from the RI...because she was breathing fine before we gave her the shot.

In other news...I finally found something to make a platform...after much searching for something safe...I found some little plastic stacking bins at Kmart and created a little three story cave condo for Cee Cee, and Seeley...when he is visiting...and I will make one for Hermes later tonight. They are having a great time exploring it right now. It's on the warm side of the tank so that the bottom sits over the heat pad...and the very top is right under the lamp for basking. The vine in the enclosure runs from the second story cave over to the plant and branch on the cool side of the tank. Here are some pics:

403240334034

[EasternGirl]

Set up a platform for Hermes too...

40364037

Please excuse the glare in the pics...had to take them in a dimly lit room with the red lamp. I am finding that Hermes is hiding more and more. He definitely likes the heat...and from what I have been reading about T. marcianus, the species tend to like it warmer. Perhaps because he is albino...even the red bulb is too much for him at times. I think I will buy a blacklight and see if he likes it better "basking" under the blacklight. He does like to "bask" under the heatlamp. I have the heat mat on too...but he likes to get up high on his hanging plant and bask right under the lamp...so I will try a blacklight bulb and see if he comes out more.

[EasternGirl]

So my whole platform idea backfired on me...I was hoping the snakes would use them to bask on top of them...but instead, they like the little cave like cubbies underneath so much, they won't come out of them! They have been inside of them since I put them in there! And it's dark...so now I can't see the snakes. I have to take a flash light and peek in there now and again to make sure everyone is okay. I ended up taking the second bin off the top in Cee Cee's enclosure...so she just has one bin in there now. She and Seeley refuse to climb to the top...so I figure maybe with just one bin, they may actually come out from their little cave and try to bask on top of the bin at some point :rolleyes:.

[guidofatherof5]

Way to go Marnie's snakes. Show her who's in charge. :D

[GarterGuy17]

I tried the exact same thing only with substrate though , I make a little mountain in the middle of the tank and put a hide inside so it looks like a cave but all she does is burrow now ! She likes the aspen very much :) The picture is in the Everyones tank setup thread .

[chris-uk]

I would give them a little more time, you know how fickle the little buggers can be. A few days isn't long enough to know whether they will get used to something new.

[EasternGirl]

Very true...I'm impatient...I get all excited about something new that I want them to enjoy!

[EasternGirl]

Okay...so the problem with Seeley's eating is definitely that he is holding out for worms. He was refusing to eat for that two month period...which was, incidently, when I did not have any worms. Then I got some worms and he began eating again. He did eat some pinky and fish pieces a couple of weeks ago...in between worms...but now today, he refused the pinkies and fish again. And now he is giving me that sad hungry face. He wants worms. I'll make him a little dish of a mix with worms in it tomorrow...picky little bugger!

[chris-uk]

Just increase the fish/pinky percentage in the worms gradually.

[EasternGirl]

I will try that. He is very odd in his eating. He would only eat worms when I first found him...which made sense, since that is what eastern garters eat in the wild around here. Then last summer all he would eat was fish...he never cared for pinkies much. When he finally decided to try pinkies again, Cee Cee snatched one from him and now he is off pinkies again. But now he doesn't want fish...just worms. So now I will have to go back...as if it were when I first found him...trying to slowly get him to eat fish and pinkies again...odd.

[EasternGirl]

I don't know what is going on with Hermes. He is staying in the cool side of his tank all the time lately...hiding. It isn't even that warm on the warm side. I have a 40 watt red bulb on the warm side. Up until about a week ago...he stayed on the warm side all the time...basking in his hanging plant, under the lamp. I thought maybe it had to do with him getting ready to shed...but he shed days ago. He ate yesterday...so I don't think he's sick.

[kibakiba]

Just a preference thing, Snap is usually on the cool side of the tank when it's around 60 degrees... but during the day when it's a bit warmer on the cool side she goes to the warm side, where it's probably just under 5 degrees warmer than the cool side... if that made any sense.

[EasternGirl]

It just seems odd to me that he seemed to prefer it so warm before and now all of the sudden he wants to be cool...when it's colder. I don't think he likes the changes I made in his tank...since I put the platform in on the warm side...which is also odd to me since he likes being up high in his hanging plant under the lamp...I thought he would really like a platform under the lamp. But of course he is acting all weird and scared because I changed things around. On another note...Cee Cee is just about to Shed, and now Seeley is going to shed again. Do you think there is something with snakes that happens when they spend a lot of time together that they become attuned to each other or something?...because they both just shed a couple of weeks ago.

[mikem]

synchronized shedding! if they're roughly the same size and you're feeding them on the same schedule, then i would think that's why they're shedding at the same time. just a guess though.

[EasternGirl]

Well, Cee Cee is a lot bigger than Seeley...but they do eat on the same schedule and spend a lot of time together. I think you may have missed the back story...but I thought Seeley was a female and they were roomies for 7 mos...then I found them canoodling and found out Seeley was a male...lol. So, I separated them. Now, Cee Cee may be gravid. They love being together so much though...so I put them together a lot. I'm getting new...same sex roomies for each of them in the spring. I just thought it was very interesting that both of them are shedding even though they both just shed a couple of weeks ago. I'm not sure why Cee Cee is shedding again...unless she is in fact, gravid...then that would explain it. And now...Seeley is shedding again...weird. Hermes just shed too...but he was due for a shed and he doesn't have any contact with them.

[mikem]

thanks for catching me up on the story... that's one way to sex them, lol! how long has it been since they last canoodled? their routine feeding schedule probably has them growing at approximately the same rate.

[EasternGirl]

Well the thing is...I only saw courting behavior...I never actually witnessed copulation...so I don't know if they have even actually mated. I have not witnessed any type of sexual behavior between them in a month...but Cee Cee was gravid when I found her last May...she had stillborns in August...and since females can store sperm and then use it to fertilize eggs for up to two years...she could have sperm stored from the male she mated with before I found her...or from Seeley at anytime up until now...if they mated...I suppose. I thought humans had complicated sex lives! On another note...Cee Cee finally shed tonight...but she had a rough time getting her shed off again. The poor thing struggled for an hour trying to get the shed to come off her face. I finally put her in a shed box but she just sat there freaking out...and I had an appointment and I didn't want to leave her...so I helped her slide it off. She seems fine now. Now it's Seeley's turn...his eyes are still cloudy... a couple more days for him. Hermes is finally back up in his hanging plant...I guess he finally decided to stop boycotting the changes I made in his enclosure :rolleyes:.

[EasternGirl]

I always wondered why Cee Cee and Seeley looked so different...considering they are both eastern garters. I knew I had seen different colorings in easterns around here though. From the reading I have been doing in the Evolution and Ecology book, I now understand that there is a dark morph and a light morph for this species, occuring naturally in the wild, that is. Cee Cee would be a light morph and Seeley a dark morph.

[guidofatherof5]

I always wondered why Cee Cee and Seeley looked so different...considering they are both eastern garters. I knew I had seen different colorings in easterns around here though. From the reading I have been doing in the Evolution and Ecology book, I now understand that there is a dark morph and a light morph for this species, occuring naturally in the wild, that is. Cee Cee would be a light morph and Seeley a dark morph.

and both are equally beautiful.;)

[EasternGirl]

Thank you, Steve...I think so too...they both have different coloring that is quite lovely. Cee Cee is a beautiful light tan color and looks almost green sometimes, and Seeley is a dark brown with black checkered markings.

[chris-uk]

I think a lot of non-garter people would be surprised by the amount of natural variation you find within the same species in the wild. When you consider the range of T. s sirtalis it's not at all surprising to find that in different areas they have evolved colourings that are advantageous to the local environment.

I always think back to what I learned as a kid about peppered moth populations in the UK, where the population in more industrial areas became black as opposed to the normal white. A man driven evolutionary change, caused because the bark of the trees they used to settle on is a light colour, but pollution since the industrial revolution had discoloured trees by staining the bark with soot over a hundred years. So the moths living in polluted areas were black.

Multiply that principle up by all the natural variation in environment in the T. s sirtarlis range and you start expecting to see a lot of variation in colouring.

[EasternGirl]

That is really interesting about the moths. Seeley just shed and right now he almost looks like a light morph like Cee Cee...but he will get darker and darker as the days pass. Cee Cee will get darker too, just not nearly as dark. It is interesting how the colors change just on the individual snake as well.

[EasternGirl]

I love my Cee Cee. She and I have gotten into a feeding routine in which I sit in front of her tank on the floor with a dish of food and she comes over to the front of the tank and sticks her head out to me and I feed her with the hemostats. It's very cute. She is very polite when she takes her bites now...although I do still have to be careful not to put my fingers in the tank after I feed her, because then she gets confused and thinks my fingers are more food. But last night, she did the cutest thing...I decided to give her a worm treat after her shot. She had her head sticking out of the tank, like usual. But then she got very excited and stretched her entire body out to me to reach for the worm piece, and when I went to feed it to her, I dropped it on the floor outside her enclosure. So...she quickly slithered down out of her enclosure and onto the floor...grabbed the piece of worm and then, just as quickly, slithered right back up into her enclosure with the worm and took it into the tank and ate it. She didn't try to make a break for it or anything. She knows where her home is. I love my Ceecers so much.

She was worrying me again because this morning she was doing that odd thing where she was acting like she was trying to vomit again. I watched her for a while...she did it for about ten minutes and then she stopped. She seemed to be breathing very hard and wheezing when she was doing it. I also think she may have regurgitated some worm last night. I have no idea what this is about...but she seems better now.

[EasternGirl]

I got a couple of pics of Hermes tonight in his new hanging plant....you'll have to ignore the writing on the outside of his tank that I haven't been able to get off...it kind of ruins the pics, but at least you can see Hermes...

409540964097

And here is a pic of Cee Cee...peeking out of her plants... 4098

[katach]

I used goo gone on our tank when we first got it, then clean the heck out of it.

[EasternGirl]

What is goo gone? It is just some writing stuff on the outside. I've tried alchohol...and the bleach and vinegar and stuff I use to clean the tank won't take it off either. It's very frustrating. It's left from where a label was on the outside and it transferred.

[guidofatherof5]

Hermes is looking good.
Nice to see Cee Cee.:D

[EasternGirl]

Thanks, Steve.

[angrygamer]

What is goo gone? It is just some writing stuff on the outside. I've tried alchohol...and the bleach and vinegar and stuff I use to clean the tank won't take it off either. It's very frustrating. It's left from where a label was on the outside and it transferred.

Goo Gone is pretty toxic stuff, I wouldn't try it unless that stuff is on the outside of the tank.

[guidofatherof5]

Home - Goo Gone (http://www.googone.com/)

[EasternGirl]

Well, it is on the outside..but does anyone have any suggestions for something I could use that I might already have around the house? Something that would take black lettering off the outside of a tank that was transferred from a sticker? The stuff just doesn't want to come off...alcohol, vinegar, and bleach did not work.

[guidofatherof5]

A razor blade scrapper should take it off.
Stanley 28-500 Retractable Razor Blade Scrapers Razor Blade Scraper (http://www.google.com/products/catalog?hl=en&tok=636LNpZVBLlf5dV-sM9BgA&cp=14&gs_id=1i&xhr=t&q=razor+blade+scraper&gs_upl=&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.,cf.osb&biw=1426&bih=727&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=shop&cid=15420898426279486289&sa=X&ei=Lus7T5zyKeTe2QWK9bnzBg&sqi=2&ved=0CGkQ8gIwAQ)

[angrygamer]

I'd try Oxyclean if you have any.

M-30 might help too, they have that at that "family dollar" chain of dollar stores.

[EasternGirl]

The thing is it isn't raised...it transferred and stained into the glass or something...it isn't gooey or anything...you can't feel it. I don't think it's something that can be scraped off.

[mikem]

great shots! i like cee cee poking her head out to see what's going on!

[EasternGirl]

Thanks! Here are a couple of new ones...Cee Cee got a new rock cave. You can see Seeley in the back of the first pic if you look closely...he's in the cave too.

4101 4102

[kibakiba]

I used an oil mixture that I use on my face, plus a wash cloth... It's a mixture of grape seed oil, sweet almond oil, castor oil, pepperming oil, teatree oil, and lavender oil. I rubbed it on and let it sit for a little while and rubbed it off... Maybe lemon juice will work? since it's acidic

[EasternGirl]

More pics...well, actually 2 of the same pic...one is a close up and one is so that you can see the enclosure...here is Seeley:

4103 4104

[aquamentus_11]

that's a nice, lush enclosure they have. what is that hide made of that he's coming out of?

[EasternGirl]

Well first of all...don't be too impressed...some of that you see is the background wallpaper! But it's nice...it gives them privacy and adds depth and scenery. That fake log...they love that log...it's foam. I think I bought that at my local pet store..Pet Kare...it was probably for turtles or something. But I put it over the undertank heat mat and it absorbs the heat and they sit in there all day. And, you can wash it with soap and water and then ring it out.

[snakehill]

Melatonin is great but I sometimes have trouble waking up when I take it!! :p

[EasternGirl]

I have not noticed that with melatonin...definitely with other sleep meds I've taken, but not melatonin.

[EasternGirl]

I finally got my magazines! Pinjohn is such a good friend and sent me some issues of Practical Reptile Keeping from the UK so that I can be knowlegable in facts on reptiles beyond garter snakes! Thanks to our postal system mimicking the natural behavior of the tortoise, it took me a month to get them...but today they finally arrived! My son and I have been reading them today and they are very interesting...so fun to read! Thank you again, John! It was a really nice thing to do.

[EasternGirl]

Seeley is refusing to eat again. Oh how I wish Cee Cee's appetite would rub off on him. His neck looks so thin. He worries me. He's active enough. He just doesn't like to eat very much. All he likes to do is snuggle with Cee Cee. He has a one track mind.

[kibakiba]

It's likely that he's pulling what snakey does. Snakey wants hanky panky, and refuses to eat until then. He has to wait for Blade, though... Mama doesn't want anything to do with him anymore ;)

[EasternGirl]

Cee Cee lets him sit on top of her, ride around on her, and they cuddle...but that's as far as it ever goes. I think she just wants to be friends...lol. She's a big tease! Or she's gravid already.

[kibakiba]

Imagine if they were humans and he was riding on top of her.. that would be a real sight to see! haha.

[EasternGirl]

It's just so cute because he is so much smaller than she is...so it looks like a baby riding around on his mama's back. She just goes about her business like she doesn't even know, or care, that he is there...and he just tries to hang on for dear life as she climbs up and down stuff in the enclosure. Sometimes it looks like he's riding a rollercoaster. It's really funny to watch!

[kibakiba]

Pumpkin was riding on Mama before... Cute haha. Rollercoaster snakies!!

[EasternGirl]

Someone else in this house really needs to learn how to work a video camera. I wish you guys could have seen the Cee Cee piggers eating last night. It was like something for America's Funniest Home Snake Videos. She was so crazed over her food...she was sitting perched on the edge of the sliding glass door on the front of her tank...with her head and neck extended out to get the food from me. She had food all over her mouth and she was gobbling it down and dropping it everywhere...and she kept falling off the ledge. She looked so fat the way she was sitting, and with food hanging from the sides of her mouth, and the way she kept falling and having to steady herself....she looked like a drunk, fat man on a food frenzy....it was hysterical. I kept laughing at her and telling her she was a pig snake. She didn't care...she was trying to eat the dish, my fingers...she probably would have lunged for the cat if he had walked by. I have got to get a video of her eating sometime.:D

[guidofatherof5]

Someone else in this house really needs to learn how to work a video camera. I wish you guys could have seen the Cee Cee piggers eating last night. It was like something for America's Funniest Home Snake Videos. She was so crazed over her food...she was sitting perched on the edge of the sliding glass door on the front of her tank...with her head and neck extended out to get the food from me. She had food all over her mouth and she was gobbling it down and dropping it everywhere...and she kept falling off the ledge. She looked so fat the way she was sitting, and with food hanging from the sides of her mouth, and the way she kept falling and having to steady herself....she looked like a drunk, fat man on a food frenzy....it was hysterical. I kept laughing at her and telling her she was a pig snake. She didn't care...she was trying to eat the dish, my fingers...she probably would have lunged for the cat if he had walked by. I have got to get a video of her eating sometime.:D

Video of that would be okay.:D

[EasternGirl]

Hermes was so funny tonight. It was time to feed him and I went to put his food under his hide like I usually do. I lifted up his hide and he came over and lifted half of his body up and started following my hand around and sniffing at my fingers...flicking his little tongue out and chasing my fingers around the tank! He was really hungry! It was so adorable because he is so small. I didn't even have time to put his hide over his dish...he dove into the dish and started gobbling up his food. You should have seen his big fat tummy when he was done! He's a happy little snake tonight. Right now, he's lounging in his hanging plant with his big old fish belly...

Seeley once again did not eat much at all. I made him a mixture of worms, tilapia, and reptamin...but he only ate a few bites. I don't know if the poor thing is eating enough at this point to sustain himself. I think all he wants is worms. I keep trying to get him to eat other things. I am going to just offer him a dish of worms tomorrow. I guess it's better to just let him have the worms if he'll eat them...than to give him other food and have him continue to refuse it.

Of course...I had to feed piggy Cee Cee a little bit since Hermes and Seeley were being fed. She really didn't need to eat tonight...the fat little thing...but she smelled the food and went crazy, so I couldn't refuse her a bit of food. I fed her a couple bites of worm and a few strips of tilapia. She went crazy for the food of course! My big fat piggers! :rolleyes:

[EasternGirl]

I felt so bad tonight. Cee Cee had to have her antibiotic injection and right before I took her out to give it to her, my cat was right up in front of the tank staring at her. Cee Cee was in strike mode...very defensive. But I had to go ahead and take her out to give her the shot because my mother was ready to help and the shot was prepared. The poor girl was freaking out...trying to get away and I had to poke her with the needle four times to get it in because she kept pulling away every time I got the needle in. She musked all over the place, and she never musks me. I felt just horrible. She finally calmed down and I fed her a worm. My poor Ceecers. Only one shot left and we are done.

[katach]

Aww, poor girl.

[EasternGirl]

I know...I feel like I tortured my snake. :(

[katach]

You are doing what is best for her.

[EasternGirl]

I know...I just never had to poke the poor thing four times before. She kept scrunching up her skin and pulling away. Poor baby. It must be terrible to be an animal and to not understand what is happening when a person is giving you a shot or taking blood or what have you. It must be very frightening. Well, I just checked on her and she is going to sleep in her slim jim can. I guess she survived the ordeal. :)

[EasternGirl]

Cee Cee and Seeley playing in the plants...

4163

[mikem]

i'm sure all is forgiven when you offer her food!

[EasternGirl]

I was going to feed Hermes yesterday...I try to feed him every 3 days since he is still young. But he looks like he still has quite the tummy bulge going on..even this morning. Sometimes it takes him a while to digest his food it seems and he doesn't seem to poop a lot. Of course I know it takes garters longer to digest some food than others...but it seems like sometimes he digests pinkies quicker than other times. He has never really pooped a lot either. He does poop...I see feces in his tank...but not much. I rarely have to clean his enclosure. Of course, he is very small still. He seems okay...I can't see any signs of there being anything physically wrong with him...his vent looks normal, his stomach looks normal...no signs of any impaction. He eats. He's not as active as I would like him to be...he hides a lot...and when he does venture out, he usually just peeps his head out of his hide and lies there partially sticking out of the hide for a while...or he might come out and switch sides. He used to go into his hanging bush and bask a lot more. I wonder if the temps or the lighting in his tank is not good for him...if there is something I could do to make him more active, increase digestion. I use the red bulb, 40 watt...I keep it on pretty much all the time for him on the warm side. The temps stay around 80-82 on that side. The temps run between 72-75 on the cool side. I usually keep a towel covering the cool side to increase humidity and block light because he seems to hide from any light coming in the tank. Any suggestions?

[mikem]

hmm, i'm not sure what would help him increase activity. maybe when he gets his cage mate they will go exploring together. he's still small so he probably just likes the security of his hide.

[EasternGirl]

Yeah...I wish I didn't have to wait for the quarantine period before putting Possum in with him. I'm really hoping that having another snake in with him will help him get over his shyness.

[EasternGirl]

Need some help here. Now this is not the best pic...and I am hoping you can see what I am talking about here. I have no idea how people put little arrows in on pictures. So, I will try to be specific. I have noticed dark spots on Cee Cee and Seeley's faces that were not there before. If you look in this picture...the darkening is above the 1st and 2nd supralabial scales on her face. It is on the same place on Seeley...but this is just a pic of Cee Cee.

4170 Sorry..I know it's a blurry pic...she was moving a lot..it's the best I could get. But you can see the dark spot that I am talking about. It is on both sides of her face. Same thing on Seeley. Is it something I should be concerned about?

[chris-uk]

Do the dark spots look like the normal pigmentation on other parts of the skin?
Would I be correct to say that as a snake matures the patterning changes? I know the colouration changes as they mature (with some colours intensifying, and in other cases the colours dull), but I'm not sure whether the pattern itself changes.

[EasternGirl]

Yes...it looks like the same coloring on her face...it looks as though the color on her face is spreading actually...spreading to more areas of her face. I noticed it on Seeley first actually...it was on both sides of his face, just like on Cee Cee...right under his eyes...reminds me of dark circles under the eyes. I thought maybe it was the way the light was hitting him and the way I was looking at him or something. But then I noticed it on Cee Cee too. The only thing that I have been doing different...is giving them calcium supplements in their water...but not even half of the recommended dose...Greg advised me on how to use them.

[EasternGirl]

Cee Cee just received her last antibiotic injection. Yipee! I know if she could, she would do a little snakie dance in celebration of this momentous occasion.

[gregmonsta]

I have to say those 'darkened' areas mentioned earlier look pretty normal to me ;)

[guidofatherof5]

I have to say those 'darkened' areas mentioned earlier look pretty normal to me ;)

I concur with Dr. Greg.:D

[EasternGirl]

Thanks...I looked back on some old pics and I could see them forming...I guess as Chris said, colors just change over time on garters. Also, I know colors change during different phases as shed time is nearing...slowly the snake's coloring gets darker and darker and then the shed process occurs and then the snake is very light again.

[EasternGirl]

Was time to feed the snakes again tonight...I had been thinking that maybe it was time to increase Hermes amount of food...I had been giving him a half a pinky's worth of food about every 3 days. He has grown so much though...I'd say he must be over a foot long now. I fed him on Thursday..half a pinky, and he was definitely still hungry...although he had a nice little bulge...so I didn't want to give him anymore right then. So, I made him a nice big dish of food tonight...half a pinky with some tilapia and some reptamin made into powder. He of course gobbled it up...I think he was so fat that he couldn't fit out of his hide tonight! I will increase his food to a little over a half a pinky's worth every three days. I made Seeley a dish of worms, tilapia, and a little reptamin powder...he ate a little, of course, not much...but some, at least. Interestingly, he ate more fish than worms this time. I gave Cee Cee two pinkies and two big pieces of tilapia...and then of course, she gave me "the look" and I gave her one more piece of fish. She has me wrapped around her...um tail? :D

[PINJOHN]

was time to feed the snakes again tonight...i had been thinking that maybe it was time to increase hermes amount of food...i had been giving him a half a pinky's worth of food about every 3 days. He has grown so much though...i'd say he must be over a foot long now. I fed him on thursday..half a pinky, and he was definitely still hungry...although he had a nice little bulge...so i didn't want to give him anymore right then. So, i made him a nice big dish of food tonight...half a pinky with some tilapia and some reptamin made into powder. He of course gobbled it up...i think he was so fat that he couldn't fit out of his hide tonight! I will increase his food to a little over a half a pinky's worth every three days. I made seeley a dish of worms, tilapia, and a little reptamin powder...he ate a little, of course, not much...but some, at least. Interestingly, he ate more fish than worms this time. I gave cee cee two pinkies and two big pieces of tilapia...and then of course, she gave me "the look" and i gave her one more piece of fish. She has me wrapped around her...um tail? :d
never been one to hold to a strict or scientific type regimen myself, i have always had a casual approach to my snakes feeding, meaning they don't get exactly the same weight of food nor are they fed on the same days continually, one of the blessings of keeping snakes is that when real life intrudes into the more important snake world then feeding them a couple of days late is no problem at all, and yes i would increase his food as he gets bigger

[EasternGirl]

Yes...thank the lord for that! I've been so busy lately...Cee Cee and Seeley were fed late this time...Cee Cee was letting me know it with her "I'm starving...can't you see I am a poor starving snake?" pathetic stares in my direction every time I walked by the tank...but at least I knew that in reality she would be okay given that my schedule was forcing me to delay her feeding a bit. The thing with Hermes is his growth keeps catching me off guard...I will look in on him from time to time and think...wow, he is really big! When did he get so big? I better feed him more! :rolleyes:

[mikem]

Snake growth always catches me off guard. I feed and feed, week after week. One day they're the same size they've always been, then overnight they have a growth spurt!

[PINJOHN]

Snake growth always catches me off guard. I feed and feed, week after week. One day they're the same size they've always been, then overnight they have a growth spurt!
My experience is identical with both yours and Marnies one day they are a certain size and the day following they have jumped several sizes

does my bum look big in this:eek:

[EasternGirl]

I have no idea what is going on with Cee Cee and Seeley...must be the spring weather we have been having around here. They are both extremely restless and last night I had to remove Seeley from Cee Cee's enclosure because of snakie shananigans again. They haven't been canoodling for a while...so I have let Seeley stay in with Cee Cee...they really like being together. Steve is going to send me same sex roomies for them in the spring. But last night...Seeley decided he was in the mood...jeez! He wouldn't leave poor Cee Cee alone. It was like watching a snake roller coaster. He kept twisting himself around her and riding on her back everywhere she went....she, on the other hand, was not having it...she was going all over the tank trying to get him off of her...she kept violently flipping him off...he would fly across the tank...lol. It was quite entertaining. They were destroying the set-up of course...and I had just cleaned the tank. Then she starting looking at me with this desperate look...like "Would you please get this flippin guy off of me?". And I had enough too...I was like..."Look, no snakie babies!"...If she isn't gravid already. So, I took him out and put him in another tank. She is still crazy restless today though. She is trying her hardest to find a way to escape from her enclosure...I have no idea what is going on with them. I'm going to have to go to the pet store and try to find a used tank to put Seeley in until he knocks it off because the tank he is in now is going to be used for Possum. Snake drama!

[mikem]

ah, love is in the air <3

she enjoys the attention. that's why she's cruising the cage looking for seeley. have you seen garter breeding balls? all the males try desperately to mate with the big female, but she usually looks totally uninterested, lol!

[PINJOHN]

ah, love is in the air <3

she enjoys the attention. that's why she's cruising the cage looking for seeley. have you seen garter breeding balls? all the males try desperately to mate with the big female, but she usually looks totally uninterested, lol!
i have learned all about the garters hemipenes.... but balls:eek: wow they are not so far from us men after all :D

[mikem]

:D ya know, as i was typing that, i thought someone would say something about the balls, lol ;)

[kibakiba]

That's how snakey was for a while... He seems to have calmed down now... It is technically close to breeding time for them.

[EasternGirl]

Yeah...I figured it was that time of year. I'm going to have to get out and get another tank for him...since the new snake is coming. I don't think I'm going to be able to let him stay in with Cee Cee a lot this spring. I have no idea where I am going to put another tank...I am running out of room for all these animals! :eek:

[EasternGirl]

I have to tell you guys...the most incredible thing has happened...Cee Cee has gone through the most amazing transformation over just the last week alone...she has suddenly bonded with me to such a degree...it's just incredible. She had been making a little progress for a while...she would come out to see me if I taped on the glass of the tank...look around for me...come over to the glass and put her face up to the glass to look at me. But usually if I put my hand in the tank, she would strike at me. Then suddenly, she started allowing me to pet her...coming over to my hand in the tank more. But now all of the sudden over the past several days...she comes over to the doors of her tank now when she sees me and puts her face up to tell me she wants out...I open the tank and she comes out to me and slithers right into my hand...and then out of the tank and into my lap! She climbs all over my hands when I put them in the tank...she looks for me all the time and puts her face up to see me when I walk by. Seeley sees this and he sees it's okay to trust me and he comes over to my hand when I put it in the tank now too! He sees the attention Cee Cee is getting and he wants some. He lets me pet him and pick him up. I'm so excited...I feel like a little kid on Christmas morning. And to top it all off...Hermes ate his food with repcal powder on it tonight...life is good. :)

[katach]

It's a good night all around!

[RedSidedSPR]

My adult has become much completely trusting, and almost fearless suddenly also. He'll aggressively come check out what I'm doing, rather then go and hide. He's always been a little skittish but not anymore

[EasternGirl]

hmmm...maybe it's the springtime in the air...the snakies are happy and fearless!

[EasternGirl]

Went out with my son tonight and got a nice surprise when I got home...Possum had shed. A perfect shed...all one piece...eye caps down to tail...left in his hanging bush, of course. My mother said he was really active all night...I guess he was slithering around his enclosure feeling good after his shed....He looks so pretty!

4288

[katach]

Very cool!! Lookin' good Possum!!

[guidofatherof5]

Went out with my son tonight and got a nice surprise when I got home...Possum had shed. A perfect shed...all one piece...eye caps down to tail...left in his hanging bush, of course. My mother said he was really active all night...I guess he was slithering around his enclosure feeling good after his shed....He looks so pretty!

4288

So handsome :D

[EasternGirl]

Thanks you guys!

[mikem]

love me some complete sheds! congrats possum!

[Selkielass]

Awww! What a cutie!

[kimbosaur]

Ummm, we're still patiently waiting for that video Marnie :p

[EasternGirl]

I know...I have to put batteries in my camera and catch him when he is exploring and not up in his plant...of course he picks times like right now to do that...and I can't wake up my family making a video at 4am! Lol...I will try to get one in the next couple of days. :)

[EasternGirl]

I am very concerned about Hermes and his sheds. He had another problem shed tonight. This one was really bad...I looked in his enclosure and it looked like it was flaking off everywhere instead of coming off the way sheds normally do...I noticed it was still around his eyes and mouth and that he was doing open mouth breathing to get air...so I quickly put him in a tub of warm water and started removing the shed by hand as fast as I could. The shed didn't want to come off properly, it was coming off in little bits and pieces. I finally got it off around his eyes...and I think I got everything off around his mouth...I think I got all of it off...he started breathing normally...but I'm worried about the stress of that whole experience...I just don't know...now I'm concerned because of what I had to put him through. I don't understand what in the world is going on with his shedding...all of the other snakes are shedding fine. His humidity was up around 40% and 50% the last couple of days. I have been misting...and I even put him in a little tub of water to swim for a minute last night. I don't know what is causing this.

[InsanePirateDragon]

Would a moist hide help possibly? I've found thats what helps sheds sometimes. Marley had one for the first month and Fry uses one.

[kibakiba]

Retained sheds can suffocate them, that's probably why he had his mouth open.

[EasternGirl]

Well it wasn't retained...he was due to shed and everything was going normal until he tried to get it off and then everything went haywire...he was trying to get it off since last night. He doesn't seem to be able to get his sheds off anymore. His first shed was perfect, then his second shed he had a bit of trouble...then his third shed...he got it down off of his head and face but couldn't get it any further..I had to take that one off too...but when I got it off, it came off in one piece. They just keep getting worse...this one, he started trying to get it off last night...he was going down under his substrate and rubbing his face around a lot. So I put him in some warm water for a couple of minutes...and then I let him go about his business, hoping he would get it off on his own today. But then I looked in there tonight and it was flaking off all over the place and he was gasping...so I rushed and helped him...but even when I took it off...it came off in weird pieces...and it didn't want to come off. So I'm trying to figure out what is causing this...and should I maybe change his substrate to something that holds humidity better and that he can rub the shed off in? I could add a moist hide around shed time...put some sphagnum moss in a hide for him. InsanePirateDragon...what do you use for a moist hide?

[kimbosaur]

I've been having a really similar experience with my albino checkered!

First shed was perfect. Second shed came off in two pieces on her own. Third shed was similar to what you described: down a little past her head and completely tattered, the rest came off in one piece when I helped her out.

I don't know if you remember, but she was having skin issues not too long ago. I raised the humidity like crazy in the tank - especially at night. I find if you put a warm, soaked towel on a flat dish and cover the top overnight, it really keeps it high overnight. I used the bottom of a take-out box. Then I aired it out during the day. Surprisingly, her last shed came off perfect when I did this. She is currently in shed again. I saw cloudy eyes a couple of days ago. We'll see what happens this time...

[InsanePirateDragon]

You can use wet paper towels or soaked moss that provides a bit more humidity to help with shedding in a space that the critter can go into on its own. They're nothing too fancy, mine's made out a gladware plastic container.

http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i234/InsanePirateDragon/IMG_20120305_213233.jpg
http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i234/InsanePirateDragon/IMG_20120305_213913.jpg

You cut a hole in the side or the top to allow them to get in and make sure the sharp edges are covered. Some melt the edges or use duct tape.

[katach]

Is that tape?

[InsanePirateDragon]

Yeah its a duct tape. I replace it ever so often because it does wear out but it can deal with a little while. I didn't have much luck trying to melt it and I went through a couple of containers and luckily the containers are pretty cheap and you get a few in the set.

But this is what it looks like being used by Fry,
http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i234/InsanePirateDragon/IMG_20120305_214624.jpg

[EasternGirl]

Yeah...word of caution...don't ever use tape of any kind on anything for your snakes...if they get caught on the tape, it can tear their skin, rip off their tongues...all kinds of horrible things. We had a member lose a snake because of tape. Tape is a big "no no" with garters. But I get the idea...and thank you...I had a plastic bowl with some moss in it before that Hermes liked to slither around in...I will make him something like that for shed time.

[RedSidedSPR]

Doesn't matter how safe you think it is, or whether you think it can get to the tape or not. They will find a way.

No tape.

[chris-uk]

I recently added a small Philadelphia tub with a hole cut in the side and filled with sphagnum moss. The plastic is thick enough that the edge won't harm them on the way in or out, it's certainly no more likely to harm them than the edge of a rock or a the edges of the logs they slither over. That's sitting in the checkered/blackneck viv permanently now. As I don't press the lid tight I can just lift it to see if anyone is in there and to keep the moss moist.

So far Binky has shed perfectly every time, the moist hide is there more for Bethan's benefit (she's never shed well).

[EasternGirl]

I will try that Chris...thanks...we have a lot of little plastic tubs around here.

[EasternGirl]

Okay...so here's one for you guys...I made the moist hide for Hermes, since he has been having the shed problems. I started thinking that maybe that last shed may have been a retained shed...looking back on some pics I have of him, he may have had a retained shed. So I went ahead and made him a moist hide...I took a plastic container with a lid...cut a little hole in it and filled it with moist moss and put it in his enclosure before I went to bed. I woke up in the middle of the night and found him sleeping in it! That can't be good right? I mean, he could get scale rot and other skin problems if he sleeps in the moist moss, couldn't he? So I took it out. So now what do I do? He obviously wants to be in there...which makes me think something is up...that he needs the moisture or something. But I am afraid to put it in there and let him just lay in it all the time. Help please!

[chris-uk]

......
That can't be good right? I mean, he could get scale rot and other skin problems if he sleeps in the moist moss, couldn't he? So I took it out. So now what do I do? He obviously wants to be in there...which makes me think something is up...that he needs the moisture or something. But I am afraid to put it in there and let him just lay in it all the time. Help please!

These are intelligent animals, if he's spending time in a moist area that he's free to come and go from it's probably because he knows he needs more moisture.
Sure spending time on a permanantly wet substrate is a bad thing, but (and I stand to be corrected if I have this wrong) the issue with scale rot is when they don't have enough dry space to get dry. I see moist hides in the same way as hot and cold, where you give them the option to regulate their own moisture in the same way that they thermoregulate themselves.

[kibakiba]

I think he just needed the humidity. Scale rot only happens from prolonged exposure to damp environments. Scale rot is also from bacteria, so if you change the moss every once in a while he should be fine. It's not like his whole tank is wet. :)

[EasternGirl]

Okay...good deal then. Just wanted to make sure he wasn't going to hurt himself. I'll put it back in there for him...I think he was a bit miffed that I took it out!

[BUSHSNAKE]

garters chilling on moist moss...they dig it

[InsanePirateDragon]

He shouldn't have a problem. He's probably loving it. And probably keeping him from taking a dip. I know my older Leo loved hers.

[mikem]

yep, just chiming in on what everyone else is saying. moist moss is a-okay. if you don't want to keep it in there all the time, just add it when he's going into the blue.

[EasternGirl]

Now Joe...you just have some on top of the other substrate? Not in a container or anything? Because I was thinking about doing that in Cee Cee's enclosure. Seeley likes it a lot too...and I put some in Possum's viv last night and he was having fun burrowing in it. But so far, Cee Cee is not having it. I wanted to put some in her viv because she is getting ready to shed...and the container might be the problem...she will not go in a moist hide. So, I was thinking about just putting a little pile in the corner.