Inactive gravid female

[Gunthar130cl200]

Hi all,
I've got a gravid (not 100% sure but all the signs a re here) ribbon snake that had a good appetite, was quite active until yesterday but today she's just lying there, sometimes her mouth open. If i pick her up, she just hangs from my hand, still. Is it a normal sign that "labor" is about to start or not? She's about 20 months old and it's her first pregnancy.

Thanx all for your answers.

[adamanteus]

That doesn't sound right to me Marc, maybe you should consult with a vet.

[Gunthar130cl200]

I tried to phone some vets who know about reptiles but couldn't get them on the phone. She seems to have troubles breathing: she opens her mouth wide, the breathing's slow. Could it be that her lung is compressed by the unborn babies?
Furthermore, the belly is really soft, a bit like a sponge, to the touch and I can feel some "lumps" underneath. The cloaca is really visible, and you can see the hole if you pick up the tail a bit.

[KITKAT]

I tried to phone some vets who know about reptiles but couldn't get them on the phone. She seems to have troubles breathing: she opens her mouth wide, the breathing's slow. Could it be that her lung is compressed by the unborn babies?
Furthermore, the belly is really soft, a bit like a sponge, to the touch and I can feel some "lumps" underneath. The cloaca is really visible, and you can see the hole if you pick up the tail a bit.

Do you have an emergency vet that will take walk-ins? I hate to be pessimistic, but it sounds like you are losing her.:(

[adamanteus]

I must agree with KITKAT, it doesn't sound good. Let us know what happens, Marc. Good luck.

[ssssnakeluvr]

that sounds abnormal to me also...need to get her to a vet right away! all my gravid females stay relatively active right up til time to pop

[Gunthar130cl200]

Thanks all for your answers.

She just died yesterday on our way to a vet friend, who was ok to try an operation, event though he isn't specialized in reptiles. When we got her out of the box and realised she was dead, our friend quickly opened her to check if any babies could be saved but they were still embryos so nothing could be done.
He performed an autopsy and found a roundworm, approx 6cm long (2 and a half inches), so we think that she could have gotten it from eating a worm carrying fish, the worm grew and got out of the stomach, causing internal bleeding and/or attacking the lung.
I'm going to deworm her mate, to be sure. Because this could happen to anyone, and because this could help some people, we took pictures of the autopsy. So I've got a question for the moderators: do you wish me to post the pictures for anyone to see or would that be against the forum rules?

[Gijs & Sabine]

I'm very sorry to hear that, Marc :(
But I think you're doing the right thing to deworm your other garter.
I'm not a moderator, but I think it would be very interesting for everybody to see the autopsy pictures.

[drache]

so sorry about your snake, Marc
I would like to see the pics, but I realize that they may be difficult to look at for many people
maybe you could make an album with a warning, then people who are interested can see them, and those who don't, won't stumble upon them by accident

[mikm]

SO sorry for your loss Marc ... Very good that you followed up & tried to get help. Through your efforts and your willingness to share your experience, we all stand to learn. :) I for one would like to see pics ... again, my condolences ...:(

[KITKAT]

so sorry about your snake, Marc
I would like to see the pics, but I realize that they may be difficult to look at for many people
maybe you could make an album with a warning, then people who are interested can see them, and those who don't, won't stumble upon them by accident

Yep... that would be my suggestion also...

Sorry you lost her Marc. Roundworms are nasty big creatures!:(

[Stefan-A]

I'm so sorry to hear about your loss. :(

[stonyloam]

can deworming be done at home, or is it vet only??

[Gunthar130cl200]

Deworming can be done at home. For example, against roundworms you've a chemical called "oxibenzolate" in French (should be the same in english but I'm not sure) found as a paste. You have to force feed it to the snake and it can be use either to prevent or to cure. I'm going to ask my vet friend if it's still efficient if injected into a dead fish and fed to the snake, that way, it would be less stressful to the snake.

[garterchick]

does anyone know if that's an over-the-counter drug? i think i want to worm my whole collection, just in case.
tina

[garterchick]

hey marc, i hit the button before i was done. i'm very sorry for your loss
tina

[adamanteus]

I'm sorry to here your bad news, Marc. Please do post the autopsy pictures. They will be of great interest to the forum.

[KITKAT]

Deworming can be done at home. For example, against roundworms you've a chemical called "oxibenzolate" in French (should be the same in english but I'm not sure) found as a paste. You have to force feed it to the snake and it can be use either to prevent or to cure. I'm going to ask my vet friend if it's still efficient if injected into a dead fish and fed to the snake, that way, it would be less stressful to the snake.

Here, we have a drug called Panacur, which I believe is in the same chemical family as oxibenzolate. However, I prefer to use Strongid, which is also sold under other names. Strongid (pyrantel pamoate) has a very low toxicity level, and it is difficult to overdose with it.

[garterchick]

how do you know how to dose it and how would you give it to the snake?
tina

[Snaky]

I would not deworm snakes just in case. It brings some stress and you may give unnecessary chemicals to your snakes. You always have the risk that they do not react well to the treatment. I'd just let the faeces checked first.

It's always sad for your loss, but I think the picture's might be interesting to have a look at

[KITKAT]

how do you know how to dose it and how would you give it to the snake?
tina

I have a book that gives this information. I am currently reading it, and in a few days I hope to post a book review.:D

[Gunthar130cl200]

I just posted the autopsy pictures in my gallery.

[adamanteus]

Very good pictures, Marc. Very interesting. Were you not able to get a picture of the roundworm?

Good idea to post them in your gallery, rather than into the thread...just in case some members don't want to see this kind of picture. Thanks for sharing, Marc.

[Gunthar130cl200]

We've tried to get a picture of the roundworm, outside of the snake but the quality wasn't there, so you can see the roundworm (nematode) only during the autopsy on this picture AutopLegend04 (http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/showphoto.php?photo=1340&cat=500&ppuser=463). It gives an idea of the size of the worm compared to the snake (my female was about 1m long)

[adamanteus]

Thanks, Marc. I don't know how I missed it first time round, especially as it's labelled!:o

[drache]

thanks so much for those excellent pictures, Marc

[Gyre]

I'm just catching up on things here. Really, sorry about your snake, Marc. And thank you for the pictures, (and also not posting them in the thread.) I'm eating lunch actually, and plan to look at them a little later...

[chris87]

very sorry to hear about your loss.

[Thamnophis]

Sorry for your loss, Marc.

Pictures look good. Thanks for sharing.

And to everybody else... don´t give your snakes medicines for something if there hasn´t been a proper diagnose by a vet.

[Gunthar130cl200]

And to everybody else... don´t give your snakes medicines for something if there hasn´t been a proper diagnose by a vet.

In this particular case, the question is more about the necessity of a preventive treatment against worms. But i'd say this leads to endless debates about the risks, stressing the animal, the effectiveness of treatments, and so on...
Unless a real study is done about this, nothing interesting will come out of it.
Maybe some other people could share their experience with worms, in order to see if a preventive treatment really is useful