*Question* Which type of garter stands out the most color wise ?

[GarterGuy17]

I was just wondering if there was one type of garter that just surpasses all other in color ? because it would be very interesting to find out if due to some conditions they have the color or maybe a different pattern then most. any opinions on garters you have encountered ?

[EasternGirl]

There are...but you may want to consider temperament too. For example, the California red-sided or San Francisco garters are gorgeous, but they are known for being quite aggressive garters. Northwesterns, radix, and easterns are all quite friendly. There is an eastern flame that is gorgeous...and checkereds are nice...there are albino checkereds that are pretty. There are many morphs out there but they get pricey. I think most would agree you would want a friendly snake for your first...if you are looking for one that is a pet and easy to handle. If you do not plan on handling your snake much...temperament will not matter as much.

[RedSidedSPR]

There's not really one species that stands out the most... There are 75 species of garters (something like that) lots of them colorful. Then there's the morphs like flames that stand out. But I couldn't name one.

Here's my baby flame. He'll get even redder as he matures. Definitely stands out as one of the more brighter, colorful snakes...

http://img580.imageshack.us/img580/7469/pa090651.jpg
http://img560.imageshack.us/img560/4647/pa080616.jpg


Then there's species that are blue where he is red.

http://www.californiaherps.com/noncal/northwest/nwsnakes/images/tspickerigibunchdp.jpg

Even my red spotted is colorful.

http://img804.imageshack.us/img804/4135/pa060590.jpg

Then there's the CA red sided (infernalis) that is even more impressive.

http://img9.imageshack.us/img9/3111/infernalis.png


Here's Scott Felzer's website. Check out all the morphs he has.

Scott Felzer's Garter Snakes, specializing in aberrant garters (http://albinogartersnake.com/pricing.htm)

[EasternGirl]

Yes I love the red and blue flames...gorgeous! But Jesse...you agree that he shouldn't get a California or San Fran for his first snake...if he wants a snake he can handle? They are pretty aggressive... I know you love that Wayne...but I think you would agree too.

[PINJOHN]

He lives in New York so a san fran is not an option :(

[GarterGuy17]

I know its not for my first snake it was just a though trying to expand my knowledge of garters. The blue and red are both gorgeous snakes something to keep in mind after I have some time with snakes. Hopefully start a little collection one day :)

[RedSidedSPR]

Yes I love the red and blue flames...gorgeous! But Jesse...you agree that he shouldn't get a California or San Fran for his first snake...if he wants a snake he can handle? They are pretty aggressive... I know you love that Wayne...but I think you would agree too.

San frans are illegal where he is, and anywhere in the US. But as much as I love infernalis behavior, yes, I agree it's not a good first snake.

[RedSidedSPR]

I know its not for my first snake it was just a though trying to expand my knowledge of garters. The blue and red are both gorgeous snakes something to keep in mind after I have some time with snakes. Hopefully start a little collection one day :)

You can't stop at one garter snake. They're like chocolate. Can't have just one.:D

[EasternGirl]

Oh right...I forgot about San Frans being protected. And yes, Jesse is right...you have entered the world of garter snake addiction John....you will have more than one...muaaahahahaaa!!!

[GarterGuy17]

Sounds like i'm being recruited into a secret society or snake mafia of some sort , Oh well it cant he helped :D

[EasternGirl]

The first rule of garter forum...you do not talk about garter forum...the second rule of garter forum...you do not talk about garter forum!

[EasternGirl]

Now that I think about that...I like it...I think we should change the name of this forum to the snake mafia...

[infernalis]

No it can't.... When I first joined this forum I had a couple, then it expanded into a room full.

[EasternGirl]

Okay Wayne...you can be the godfather of the snake mafia.

[GarterGuy17]

But if you think about it if we call it snake mafia it would be a generalization of all snakes when we associate with garter so should it be something that pertains to garters uniquely instead of just all snakes. I mean its only right :rolleyes:

[EasternGirl]

You are very right...the garter mafia...

[GarterGuy17]

There we go ! :D not to shabby if I say so myself.

[angrygamer]

I only have one Garter and I am going to keep it at one! I see why you want more than one, but I can't have a breeding colony in my apartment.

Do you think they get lonely for other garters?

[GarterGuy17]

I'm pretty new to garter but i'm pretty sure some garters like being alone and some like to have company I guess it all depends on your snake really.

[RedSidedSPR]

I only have one Garter and I am going to keep it at one! I see why you want more than one, but I can't have a breeding colony in my apartment.

Do you think they get lonely for other garters?

I think the hugely benefit from company, especially babies, but they're just fine without it

[chris-uk]

It's not just the bright red and blue ones that are stunning. Our Cuitzeos are stunning snakes with pretty much an all black paint job, the checkereds have some subtle pretty colours, and western blacknecks take the checkereds style to another level.
Having said that, other than a third Blackneck, next year the top candidate to add to our expanding bunch of garters is an infernalis (yes, I know).

I've also heard that there's something called a "radix" which come in many different colours. I really must add one of those to our brood.

[RedSidedSPR]

It's not just the bright red and blue ones that are stunning. Our Cuitzeos are stunning snakes with pretty much an all black paint job, the checkereds have some subtle pretty colours, and western blacknecks take the checkereds style to another level.
Having said that, other than a third Blackneck, next year the top candidate to add to our expanding bunch of garters is an infernalis (yes, I know).

I've also heard that there's something called a "radix" which come in many different colours. I really must add one of those to our brood.

Yup Yup and Yup

[EasternGirl]

The black and white radix really are quite stunning. And yes, Chris, all of the snakes you named are beautiful as well. I will probably own an infernalis myself at some point. They are my favorite in terms of looks. And I can appreciate a snake with a temper. Next for me is the radix, then probably a red flame.

[GarterGuy17]

Infernalis are pretty advanced for me don't you think haha , hopefully someday I will have one in my collection.

[EasternGirl]

I think you have to go out and pass some sort of garter mafia initiation before you are allowed to have one...lol...

[GarterGuy17]

Ah man sounds tough , I guess I have to reach a certain milestone before getting it :T. On the other hand hopefully we get some new morphs with amazing color this year that would really give us something to wow about.

[EasternGirl]

If you click on the home tab when you come to the site...it will list all the new posts...often breeders like Jeff, Joe and Jason and Julio will post pics of new snakes they have...cool morphs and you will see listings for snakes for adoption. You can look under adoption too. I always go to the home tab first because it shows all of the newest posts under all of the different headings on the forum.

[GarterGuy17]

I know me to I like to check what people are up to. Are you expecting to get any new snakes ?

[d_virginiana]

I know me to I like to check what people are up to. Are you expecting to get any new snakes ?

idk if anyone else has mentioned it, but kingsnake.com also has a section for garter/water snakes. I know Scott Felzer puts ads up there, as well as a couple other people that we sometimes see on the forum. You just have to be careful, as there are some people on that site who just grab a bunch of wild snakes and try to sell them cheap.

Oh, Harley and Houdini wanted me to tell you all about red and blue easterns (Harley is Red's littermate, but you can't ever have too many pics of flame babies, right?)
3633

[EasternGirl]

I am getting a radix in the spring from my friend Steve. Steve is the radix king. Radixes are wonderful, friendly snakes...beautiful too. You may want to talk to Steve...Guidofatherof5....if you are interested in a radix...I think he mentioned that he had a red-sided het or something to that effect too. Steve is good people. Great garter lover. You can learn a lot about garters from him. Just send him a message. I just got my baby albino checkered from Jason..Chondro788...I highly recommend him as well. If you click on his profile...there will be a link to his website and you can see what he has available or you can send him a private message.

I am trying to get a cagemate for Cee Cee but...okay..to make a long story not too long...I had Seeley..who was Selena because I thought he was a she. Then I found Cee Cee. I put them in together to be cagemates...I think garters do much better with company. Turns out Seeley is a male...now Cee Cee may be gravid (knocked-up)...I got Hermes...my albino, to be a cagemate for Seeley and I was going to get a female radix from Steve to room with Cee Cee. But now I think that Hermes might be a female..which means I will need a male from Steve and I will put Hermes in with Cee Cee. But if Cee Cee is preggers...I may have anywhere from 20-40 babies in a couple of months. So if you want an eastern....I may have one for you! The last time Cee Cee had babies though, they were all stillborn...she had 30 stillborns last August.

[GarterGuy17]

You have some nice snakes there Lora , that flame baby's color looking bright for a baby any way how old is it ?

[EasternGirl]

I love those red flames...gorgeous! Who is the big snake in the pick Lora? What a cutie!!!

[GarterGuy17]

I am getting a radix in the spring from my friend Steve. Steve is the radix king. Radixes are wonderful, friendly snakes...beautiful too. You may want to talk to Steve...Guidofatherof5....if you are interested in a radix...I think he mentioned that he had a red-sided het or something to that effect too. Steve is good people. Great garter lover. You can learn a lot about garters from him. Just send him a message. I just got my baby albino checkered from Jason..Chondro788...I highly recommend him as well. If you click on his profile...there will be a link to his website and you can see what he has available or you can send him a private message.

I am trying to get a cagemate for Cee Cee but...okay..to make a long story not too long...I had Seeley..who was Selena because I thought he was a she. Then I found Cee Cee. I put them in together to be cagemates...I think garters do much better with company. Turns out Seeley is a male...now Cee Cee may be gravid (knocked-up)...I got Hermes...my albino, to be a cagemate for Seeley and I was going to get a female radix from Steve to room with Cee Cee. But now I think that Hermes might be a female..which means I will need a male from Steve and I will put Hermes in with Cee Cee. But if Cee Cee is preggers...I may have anywhere from 20-40 babies in a couple of months. So if you want an eastern....I may have one for you! The last time Cee Cee had babies though, they were all stillborn...she had 30 stillborns last August.

They told me about a breeder called Rhea who lives not to far away that she has a red sided baby left but its female i'm looking for a male so I might look into some other snakes that she has if possible.

That story is pretty funny actually hahaha ill be sure to think about getting another snake after I have one for a while.

[EasternGirl]

Rhea is an awesome person from what I know. Knows a lot about garters. Is there a particular reason you want a male? Females can be much easier to handle...friendlier from what I am told. Breeders will ship snakes you know. That is how many people get their snakes. My albino was shipped to me. Many breeders do not like to ship now in the cold though. So if you are going to have a snake shipped you may have to wait until spring...depends on the breeder.

[GarterGuy17]

Rhea is an awesome person from what I know. Knows a lot about garters. Is there a particular reason you want a male? Females can be much easier to handle...friendlier from what I am told. Breeders will ship snakes you know. That is how many people get their snakes. My albino was shipped to me. Many breeders do not like to ship now in the cold though. So if you are going to have a snake shipped you may have to wait until spring...depends on the breeder.

I know that A lot of breeders ship snakes but its cold meaning they will not ship. On the other hand Rhea is not that far from me I can go pick my snake up or something like that. I just talked to Steve about it and he told me the same thing so I decided on getting the female now.

[EasternGirl]

Yeah...Steve is the one who told me that...he has hundreds of snakes so he would know. I can't really judge because my eastern male and female are wild caught and my one albino male is captive bred...so my female is skiddish and can be fiesty...and my albino male is a baby and is really gentle and calm. Between my male and female wild caught easterns, I would actually say that my male is much calmer and friendlier than my female...but he was also a baby when I found him and she is very skiddish...and she false strikes at me (a thing garters do where they strike at you and kind of bump their noses into you but don't actually open their mouths and bite) but she only does that because she is scared...she isn't mean at all. Steve has many wild and captive bred males and females to compare...he would know better.

[GarterGuy17]

I see I have been taking every thing he says into consideration I will actually see If I get a radix as my second snake after I have my first for a while.

[guidofatherof5]

Sounds like i'm being recruited into a secret society or snake mafia of some sort , Oh well it cant he helped :D

"Come into the light. All are welcome, all are welcome"
"Resistance is futile, all will be assimilated"

It's all good.;)

[infernalis]

Here is a big photo gallery to drool over...

Garter Snakes (http://www.thamnophis.net/Gartersnakes/index.html)

Another that includes some assorted animals including some garters & non garters..

Photo Gallery (http://www.danceswithreptiles.com/PG1/index.html)

[EasternGirl]

Uh oh John....you have kicked in Steve's radix brainwashing ritual...it is all part of the garter mafia propaganda...we have all been subjected to it at one point or another. He calls me on Skype and plays low frequency messages of radix brainwashing sound waves over my computer...."you love the radix....the radix is the only snake...radix is the only garter...you worship the radix"....lol.

[GarterGuy17]

:eek: Hahahaha that's pretty funny , I wont disappoint in learning the way's of the radix !

[guidofatherof5]

Uh oh John....you have kicked in Steve's radix brainwashing ritual...it is all part of the garter mafia propaganda...we have all been subjected to it at one point or another. He calls me on Skype and plays low frequency messages of radix brainwashing sound waves over my computer...."you love the radix....the radix is the only snake...radix is the only garter...you worship the radix"....lol.

"So let it be written, so let it be done"
I don't see a problem hear. :D

[ConcinusMan]

High end flames (an eastern garter morph originally from Canada) are expensive, but quite impressive.
http://www.thamnophis.us/ssnakess/subi.jpg

My personally favorite "flashy" garter snake is orange or red phase albino T. radix.

http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQtlclIwwLSOkyJufNn_D-UsSLt8K2_oqYbFbbbWzL_Z-szrskCzQw1hCFW

http://amkreptiles.com/uploads/2/9/1/1/2911068/4071719_orig.jpg

Albino T. sirtalis parietalis is pretty flashy too:

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_4VXrkZe4WmU/TMrGJDw0HHI/AAAAAAAAJxM/ynbhQ6Ym8gw/s1600/Thamnophis+parietalis+%28red-sided%29+albino.jpg


And then there's T. sirtalis concinnus, which is pretty in it's normal wild coloration. similar to Ca red sided, but tamer.

http://img844.imageshack.us/img844/5742/twobabies016large.jpg

[Selkielass]

For a first snake, look for good temperament as well- you will probably be handling that snake more than any other snake you subsequently aquire.
I've seen Steves collection, and he really has a lot of *Gorgeous* Radixes, as well as many pretty colorations of other species. I particularly liked the blue concinnus and the red striped Northwesterns. (If we are moving away from the red phase, black and white, and gergeous yellow striped radixes, which in Steves collection is hard to do.)

I'm fond of the bold lateral stripes of te Butlers Garter, but my local snakes aren't terribly showy.

Why are you set on a male? Females are a lot calmer in general, and make better pets. Males tend to be more skittish and prone to hiding. (Tendency. not a rule. all are individuals.)

[GarterGuy17]

Albinos really catch attention they are very beautiful snakes but for some reason I love flames they might be my favorite type of garters , the coloration they have is just stunning.:rolleyes:

[ConcinusMan]

I believe Scott Felzer is taking pre-paid reservations and is expecting flame litters soon. Scott Felzer's Garter Snakes, specializing in aberrant garters (http://www.albinogartersnake.com/available.html)

[EasternGirl]

Richard...those snakes are all so gorgeous! I agree...flames are probably my favorite too...well it's a toss up between flames and San Frans in terms of the prettiest garter...albinos are very stunning too...I also love some of the different blue ones...

But yes...in terms of temperament I would say from what I have heard...go for a radix or a northwestern. From what I have heard...and we already discussed female over male...

[GarterGuy17]

Yea i'm getting a female now, hopefully get a male next and see what happens after.

[ConcinusMan]

That would be the best bet. Female first. If you want to breed later, it won't matter if the male is much smaller and younger as long as he's sexually mature. But it will matter if the female is smaller. Females as a general rule, mature later than males, and should be bigger than the male at breeding time, or roughly the same size. Females also usually grow to a larger maximum size than males.

You can breed a 3 ft, 5 year old female to a 1 ft, 18 month old male, but not the other way around. Grow your female up. You can always get a younger male later.

[GarterGuy17]

Then I will do that , what would be the possible outcomes if I get a flame since they vary in color ( male ) and a red sided ( female ) ?

[EasternGirl]

But you want to make sure you know what you are getting into before you decide to put a female and a male together. Breeding is a huge undertaking and not something that I would even do by choice at this point in my venture as a hobbyist...I just don't feel that I know enough yet...I am going to have to learn fast because Cee Cee may be pregnant. But I would not choose to mate snakes yet. Taking care of babies is a huge responsibility. If you plan to get a male soon after getting a female, I would recommend planning on having separate enclosures for them.

[ConcinusMan]

Then I will do that , what would be the possible outcomes if I get a flame since they vary in color ( male ) and a red sided ( female ) ?

The outcome would be hybrids. You don't want to do that. Flames are T. sirtalis sirtalis. Red sided is T. sirtalis parietalis. They are two different subspecies. "flame" is just the name of the color morph. Flames are eastern garters. Red sided is a different snake.

[GarterGuy17]

But you want to make sure you know what you are getting into before you decide to put a female and a male together. Breeding is a huge undertaking and not something that I would even do by choice at this point in my venture as a hobbyist...I just don't feel that I know enough yet...I am going to have to learn fast because Cee Cee may be pregnant. But I would not choose to mate snakes yet. Taking care of babies is a huge responsibility. If you plan to get a male soon after getting a female, I would recommend planning on having separate enclosures for them.

Oh I know If I ever plan on breeding it would be months maybe a year who knows , but it will not be anytime soon.

And oh okay what would be a good pair to breed ?

[ConcinusMan]

Any of them. Just see to it that they are the same species/subspecies. If you want experiment and be surprised by the outcome, you can try mixing different color morphs, as long as they are the same species. Crossing them often results in offspring that aren't near as pretty as either of the parents, and is frowned upon for the most part. I know they do it with kings/milks/corns, but garter fans don't like hybrids. We like our snakes pure.

As far as color morphs go, this is what I mean. These snakes are ALL eastern garters. Same species as the "flames"

Breeding any of these to a flame would not create hybrids because they are all T. sirtalis sirtalis (Eastern Garter Snake)

http://srelherp.uga.edu/snakes/pics/thasir3.jpg

Melanistic:
http://www.gartersnake.info/species/img/sirtalis01.jpg

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/160/416414792_c1068089e7.jpg

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_4VXrkZe4WmU/TMrIm_ypVHI/AAAAAAAAJxc/cRAT_BXNFTA/s1600/Thamnophis+sirtalis+sirtalis+albino+flame+eastern+ garter.jpg



I know it's confusing because there are so many species/subspecies and sometimes many color morphs within each species. Just keep hanging around you'll learn the difference between what is a color morph, and what is a separate species. If you pair them up, it's the Latin names that are important. They should both be the same.

[ConcinusMan]

These two snakes may look the same, but are different species, so you shouldn't breed them to each other.

Albino red sided garter (T. sirtalis parietalis)

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_4VXrkZe4WmU/TMrGJDw0HHI/AAAAAAAAJxM/ynbhQ6Ym8gw/s1600/Thamnophis+parietalis+%28red-sided%29+albino.jpg

Red phase Iowa albino T. radix (plains garter)

http://amkreptiles.com/uploads/2/9/1/1/2911068/4071719_orig.jpg

If you bred these two together you would get hybrids and they would most likely look nothing like this. They would be dull looking "muts"

In contrast, sometimes two different snakes of the same species can look totally different from one another, but be compatible for breeding.

[GarterGuy17]

Ew sounds pretty nasty looking ill be sure to get the same species/subspecies if I ever decide to breed.

[ConcinusMan]

That would be advisable. Let me show you an example of what can happen when you cross two very good looking species.

Checkered garter: (T. marcianus)

http://www.gpnc.org/images/jpegs/animals/ChGarter.jpg

Oregon Red spotted garter (T. sirtalis concinnus)

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-P1kR2KilsZg/TbqjyxgZ4dI/AAAAAAAAQS4/Ukm7zfh4VAg/s1600/Red-spotted+Garter+Snake+%28Thamnophis+sirtalis+concin nus%29.jpg

Crossing them produced "muts" shown here: Not nearly as good looking as their pure parents IMO.

http://desmond.imageshack.us/Himg824/scaled.php?server=824&filename=concinnuscheckerdhybrid.jpg&res=medium

[EasternGirl]

No...their parents are gorgeous...stunning in color.

[kimbosaur]

I must admit those mutts are pretty charming in their own little way. Any chance of seeing any grown up pics of them?

[GarterGuy17]

I did find that odd even though they are mutts they have there own beauty its not colorful but very good looking if I say so myself.

[infernalis]

I only have one Garter and I am going to keep it at one! I see why you want more than one, but I can't have a breeding colony in my apartment.

Do you think they get lonely for other garters?


Snakes are not even capable of experiencing "Loneliness" as we know it ;)

[ConcinusMan]

Sometimes It annoys me when people anthropomorphise reptiles. They do not think like us. There's no reason to believe they do. They do not get lonely, and do not feel affection for their keepers or each other. Can I prove it? No. But things like seeking company and feeling affection are instincts that enhance mammalian survival. Reptiles have no need for these things so there's no reason to believe they are even capable of feeling or thinking like we do. They don't even possess the necessary brain chemistry such as oxytocin, serotonin, dopamine, etc as far as I know.

[EasternGirl]

Actually I just read something in The Evolution and Ecology book about them needing oxytocin when there are problems with retaining afterbirth, so I am assuming they do have it. I understand that people get annoyed by those of us who want to believe that snakes have feelings. But..you are right...you cannot prove that they do not. No offense. We assume dogs have feelings and we assume that the higher you go up the evolutionary chain that animals have more feelings, thoughts, etc. But we don't have scientific proof of that. We don't know that snakes don't get lonely...we do know that they seem to benefit from the company from other snakes...that shows something. It isn't hurting anyone if I want to believe that my snake might actually have some feelings beyond instinct. To be honest, and there is no offense intended here... I actually get a little annoyed by all the people who insist that it is impossible to conceive that a reptile may actually feel something...but hey...I try to respect everyone's beliefs...so for the most part, I usually just keep that to myself. Besides...people usually think I'm crazy if I start trying to insist that my snake has feelings. I honestly don't know if they do or do not. I am just saying I am not closed to the idea that it is possible that they may have feelings.

[kibakiba]

Colour wise, I enjoy my concinnus. They're pretty little snakes.


And, you cant tell what a snake is feeling, so there's no reason to believe that they are or aren't attached to people. Perhaps you should be open minded, it opens a lot of doors that were locked, you know.

[angrygamer]

Snakes are not even capable of experiencing "Loneliness" as we know it ;)


Sometimes It annoys me when people anthropomorphise reptiles. They do not think like us. There's no reason to believe they do. They do not get lonely, and do not feel affection for their keepers or each other. Can I prove it? No. But things like seeking company and feeling affection are instincts that enhance mammalian survival. Reptiles have no need for these things so there's no reason to believe they are even capable of feeling or thinking like we do. They don't even possess the necessary brain chemistry such as oxytocin, serotonin, dopamine, etc as far as I know.

OK, since I'm really new to snakes I hold them in the same regard that I would any other pet...and so many times I have read on this forum about how a Garter is introduced to other Garters in a nest and how that new Gaters' behavior changes, usually for the better, in terms of feeding, activity or what have you.

I think because of the fact that their behavior changes says something about their ability to be stimulated by their environment.

As far as being "lonely", OK it may not be the pinnacle of survival in captivity, but just like with any other pet, it is probably condusive.

I mean, obviously they are social animals, if not to us humans, at least to each other, and that can't (usually) be a bad thing, right?

[EasternGirl]

Exactly. Plus...there is no harm in wanting to be open to the possibility that snakes can actually have some higher order of thinking and some emotion. Does it sound ridiculous when I say it? Sure...but since I cannot scientifically prove that they do or do not have emotion...I choose to at least keep my mind open to the possibility that they could have something comparable to what we call emotion. If people want to think I'm crazy for that...so be it...it wouldn't be the first time people thought I was nuts.

[RedSidedSPR]

Sometimes It annoys me when people anthropomorphise reptiles. They do not think like us. There's no reason to believe they do. They do not get lonely, and do not feel affection for their keepers or each other. Can I prove it? No. But things like seeking company and feeling affection are instincts that enhance mammalian survival. Reptiles have no need for these things so there's no reason to believe they are even capable of feeling or thinking like we do. They don't even possess the necessary brain chemistry such as oxytocin, serotonin, dopamine, etc as far as I know.

When I do it it's not real. I don't really mean it, I'm just getting the point the across.

Agreed, but they can feel insecure without company.. I know this just from my snakes

[Mommy2many]

Do you think they get lonely for other garters?

I think we get lonely for other garters...

[EasternGirl]

When I do it it's not real. I don't really mean it, I'm just getting the point the across.

Agreed, but they can feel insecure without company.. I know this just from my snakes Agreed. My snakes do much better when they are housed together. I don't know how you explain that...being lonely, insecurity..I don't know. I just know I have seen the proof that they thrive when they are together.

[RedSidedSPR]

Babies especially benefit from company from whatbive seen

[angrygamer]

Snakes are not even capable of experiencing "Loneliness" as we know it ;)


I think we get lonely for other garters...

heh.

Yeah I might get another, just to keep Glyph company.

[EasternGirl]

I make sure all my snakes have housemates. Cee Cee and Seeley were together and now I am separating them because I do not want them to mate again. So Hermes will go in with Seeley when he gets bigger and I am getting a female radix in the spring to go in with Cee Cee. If I get a snake, I always plan to get a roomie for that snake.

[ConcinusMan]

Just for the record, I never said they were without emotion. Just that they are not mammals and therefore it's likely that they do not feel and think like mammals do. For example, an emotional bond between mother and child, and mate to mate is not there. There's no reason to believe it is there. Why? Because it's not necessary for their survival. There is no evolutionary or biological/reproductive advantage. There is an advantage to having the emotion of fear/need for self preservation, so it is likely that they do feel that. Being with other garters provides security. There's safety in numbers. That doesn't mean they are lonely if alone. It just means they feel less vulnerable to predator attack if they are not alone. That's self preservation, not affection for other snakes.:cool:

That's all I'm getting at. That their motivation for being with one another is not necessarily the same thing that motivates us to seek out company.

[chris-uk]

I'd tend to agree that they probably don't have emotions in the way that we do, but some of their behaviour can be easily described by applying an emotional to it. The loneliness thing, is explained as a survival instinct, safety in numbers etc.
Snakes seeking out human company could be described as a snake liking their owner, but equally it could be stated that the snake has learned where food comes from and where to find a warm climbing frame.

Some behaviour is more complex and difficult to explain using base instincts, not that I've seen anything in ours that falls into that category, I think it's behaviour in older snakes that have deeply ingrained behaviours that are more likely to be explained using higher thought processes.

I'm open, and some of the things other owners have said make me hope that I will eventually see some interesting behaviour in the coming years.

[EasternGirl]

I agree with a lot that you say Richard and I can see both sides of the argument for and against snakes having some level of something comparable to emotion. I do understand that you were not necessarily saying they have none...just that it is not the same as ours. I have never seen my snakes demonstrate any sort of emotion toward me...that's for sure. I do not think that my snake feels anything for me...or loves me..or feels attachment to me...or misses me when I am not around. But I do question whether or not they feel anything toward one another. That is where it gets a little more "disputable" for me...for lack of better phrasing.

[kibakiba]

They do miss you when you're not around, because that means you can't give them food. :p

[EasternGirl]

Lol....right?

[ConcinusMan]

I think that pretty much sums it up^^^. It sounds like most of you got the point I was trying to make. And geez, I sure have a knack for making a statement that totally derails a thread from the original topic.:rolleyes:

[snakehill]

Yes! You do! :p

[chris-uk]

Infernalis for bright colours.
Natrix natrix for subtle muted colours.

Back on track?

[EasternGirl]

Hee hee...Richard were you on a debate team in school?

[ConcinusMan]

Yeah, the mass debate team.

[EasternGirl]

lol...

[BUSHSNAKE]

Infernalis for bright colours.
Natrix natrix for subtle muted colours.

Back on track?
nobody has mentioned ocellatus or atratus...and terrestris

[PINJOHN]

lol...
Marnie i was wondering why you found Richards answer so amusing .......and then it hit me :eek: god i can be so slow at times.
and you young lady need to say three our fathers and two hail Mary's :mad: :D

[ConcinusMan]

nobody has mentioned ocellatus or atratus...and terrestris

Yeah, back in 1991, I took a CA road trip along Hwy 101 in early April. Made a pit stop along the beach South of the Bay area on Hwy 1 just south of Big Sur. There, right on the beach/rocks, and even swimming in the rocky saltwater shallows, were hundreds of coast garters. I was stunned. They were all very high red. Definitely a stunningly beautiful garter. I wanted to, but I didn't keep any. Still, I left the beach, my hands reeking of garter musk.:D

T. elegans terrestris:

http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTz-lIFKr-a1NFoD6gXDrwjdxGen514TrGbRnB-RvBh5twVz3SgoGlE6i0h

[EasternGirl]

That must have been awesome to see. They are very stunning. Also Florida blue-striped and Puget sounds...they are very pretty.

[ConcinusMan]

There were atratus' there too, but they weren't very pretty. Just plain brown snakes with pale yellow dorsal stripe. At the time, I thought they were northwestern's on steroids. Now I know better.

[EasternGirl]

Lol...

[PINJOHN]

That must have been awesome to see. They are very stunning. Also Florida blue-striped and Puget sounds...they are very pretty. glad you spoke up for the eastern's Marnie ;)

[tress29]

hundreds of coast garters. They were all very high red.
I hope my coast gets nice color like that! His body color has lightened to a brown. Anyone know how long a color change like that could take? (And obviously, he may never get that red.)

[EasternGirl]

You know me John...I will always be a poster girl for the easterns! I happen to think my regular old T. sirtalis sirtalis are gorgeous. Especially after a shed. Cee Cee just shed last night (see my Cee Cee and Seeley journal thread for details and pics) and she is so beautiful right after a shed...her color is completely different and her pattern looks different too. Before a shed, she looks deep brown and you can barely see any checkered pattern on her. After a shed, she almost looks green and the checkered pattern below her stripe shows up so clearly.

[ConcinusMan]

I hope my coast gets nice color like that! His body color has lightened to a brown. Anyone know how long a color change like that could take? (And obviously, he may never get that red.)

Usually by the time they reach sexual maturity, (1-3 yrs old) they are done changing color.

[tress29]

Usually by the time they reach sexual maturity, (1-3 yrs old) they are done changing color.Thanks!