Heat options in plastic tank?

[Light of Dae]

I am saying MERRY CHRISTMAS TO ME and a very happy new year as on Dec 28th I will be picking up a Checkered Garter Snake from Chris / Spankenstyne. I'm SO excited *Insert Music Notes* and I just can't hide it! I know I know... lol And I have a big clear plastic tank to set up. I will be putting him in with my little Radix for a little while as they are still too young to breed, but alas they will be monitored for any funny business or inappropriate affections lol

My question is... What kinda heating options do I have for a plastic tank? I would like a cheap build it yourself type deal. Was thinking about heat tape on slate rock? Or heat pad on slate rock / tile? I don't wanna melt the plastic... Any ideas? Would a normal lamp with say a 100w bulb work? I plan on customizing the lid with steel mesh window screen so as to allow air flow n light...

Any thoughts on heat rocks? or them Heat Cables? I also saw a 'Hermit crab heat pad' Which attaches to plastic but I couldn't find anything about how warm they get or anything.

Any help n advice is greatly appreciated.

[guidofatherof5]

I would be amiss if I did not bring up the issue of a quarantine time for this new snake.
Placing this new snake in with your radix may put both snakes at risk.
I will be the first to admit that a quarantine period is a pain in the butt but a necessary one.
A strict quarantine period must be established by the keeper and not wavered from.
My policy is 90 days no matter who the seller is and I hope anyone receiving snakes from me will also impose a period of quarantine.
Just something to think about.

[chris-uk]

Good point on quarantine Steve.

Heating options-wise. I've used both a heat lamp and heatmat successfully with our large RUB when I've had a Cuitzeo in it. The heatmat was probably most successful, the lamp with a 40W didn't get hot enough for me to be concerned about the plastic, but I think the heatmat was definitely more efficient. I just attached the heatmat to the bottom of the RUB. If you replace some of the lid with mesh then that will improve the efficiency of a lamp in your setup compared to mine though.
I'd avoid heatrocks, although the newer ones are supposed to be a lot better there's still a general distrust of them, however I think it's better to heat a larger area of the floor rather than just a single rock.

Whether you use a lamp, tape or mat, just make sure you use a stat to control the heat.

[Light of Dae]

Thanks for the Quarantine reminder Steve! I was about to be a blonde eh! oops avoided! :) Thanks Steve!

Ok So I can't very well go shopping today... I would go... a wee nuts in the crazy crowds of boxing day! NO THANKS! I ain't going to be in 'the rush' nuh uh! Tomorrow I will go out (Should be the slowest day of the year for shopping right after boxing day) n I will get some Screen and probably a lamp. Today I'll also work on my new 'fake rock' One that will use the height in my current tank :) Will look like an old stone building.


I just attached the heatmat to the bottom of the RUB

And it didn't melt at all? They say only use on glass... This plastic tank I got isn't like a Rubbermaid its a thinner less pliable plastic, but its crystal clear. I'll start getting it set up n post pictures :)

On a side note;
My little Radix.. is a terrible hunter lol Yesterday for Christmas I gave her some good sized worm chunks n a live guppy lol OF COURSE she picked out all the worms bits first, then went after the guppy who had been sitting still... WELL this guppy upon being bitten FLEW out of the dish! so I picked it up outa the coco husk, wiped it off n put it in her water dish... Well she stalked it n stalked it n into the dish she went. Swimming around with her mouth wide open she runs into the guppy and it swims away lol. ALL this while I'm pissed off at the new camera I bought myself for Christmas cause 1. I forgot to buy the memory card, so it only holds four pictures on its internal memory! 2. The brand new batteries it came with DIED within 3hours! So here now I got a 16mp Kodiak Camera that I cannot use! grr... lol So alas I am still using my old phone with a 8mp camera to take pictures...
I should have held out for a camera that has manual focus.. That's what I REALLY want...

[chris-uk]

And it didn't melt at all? They say only use on glass... This plastic tank I got isn't like a Rubbermaid its a thinner less pliable plastic, but its crystal clear. I'll start getting it set up n post pictures :)


The RUB I had the match on had the more flexible sort of plastic, rather than the harder brittle stuff. The mats I've got don't get above about 35C plugged in without a thermostat, so they don't get to the sort of temps where you'd be concerned about melting plastic. Plug a mat in on a heatproof surface and just see what temperature it gets to in half an hour or so. Personally if it got to the temps where it could melt plastic I wouldn't be using it, because that's how hot it would get if the stat malfunctions.

[tress29]

And it didn't melt at all? They say only use on glass... This plastic tank I got isn't like a Rubbermaid its a thinner less pliable plastic, but its crystal clear. I've used an under tank heat pad in a Kritter Keeper before. It's a clear, more brittle plastic. Used a thermostat as to not burn the snake...

[EasternGirl]

Zoo Med makes a UTH mat especially for plastic enclosures...it's their smallest sized mat...Zoo Med Repti Therm mini for 1-5 gallon terrariums (http://www.reptilesupply.com/product.php?products_id=686)

[tress29]

Zoo Med makes a UTH mat especially for plastic enclosures...it's their smallest sized mat...Zoo Med Repti Therm mini for 1-5 gallon terrariums (http://www.reptilesupply.com/product.php?products_id=686)I think that's the one I have! It's been moved from a 5 gallon Kritter Keeper to a 15qt Rubbermaid tub, and (with the thermostat) is holding temps well with no signs of warping or melting.

[Light of Dae]

K well I bought a lamp, will do the trick. They didn't have the mini uth mat you guys mentioned, just had the bigger ones. I did pick up some normal 100w bulbs finally, so I can keep it a little warmer in both tanks. Just going to sit down now and set it all up :)

I can't wait to get my little Checkered tomorrow! I feel like a kid that knows they're going to the water park or something n is really really excited n jumping up n down inside lol Can't wait!

[EasternGirl]

That's how I was when I was waiting for Hermes to arrive...we expect pics as soon as you can put some up!!

[Light of Dae]

lol Will do! I am finished writing down directions and am off to Calgary (3hour drive) Cannot WAIT!!! ... I may speed due to excitement... lol Off I go!

[PINJOHN]

lol Will do! I am finished writing down directions and am off to Calgary (3hour drive) Cannot WAIT!!! ... I may speed due to excitement... lol Off I go!

just cos your off to Calgary doesn't mean you should stampede :D

[Light of Dae]

AAAAAND He's home :)
He wasn't to happy about the 3hour drive home though lol He is currently napping under a fake plant.

3606this was his ride home, he spent most his time borrowed but peeking at me.
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3604Slowly figuring out my new camera lol

[Spankenstyne]

Was good to meet you & glad to see you both made it home safe & sound. Wish I had seen this thread before but yes I agree with Steve, quarantine is a must with new snakes (even ones from me lol). As for undertank heaters & heat pads you should always use them with a temperature control device (dimmer/thermostat etc).

Congrats on the pickup, he's a great little snake and it's nice to see him going to such a good home.

[Selkielass]

I have a couple little acrylic fish tanks that came with lids with internal bulbs. One had an inner flat lid that was easily made snake-proof. the other hadseveral ventiltion and feeding holes that were easily sealed up with a bit of plastic canvas (Craft stuff) and hot glue.
One is 5 gallon, the other is maybe one gallon, and because of the small size both are kept plenty warm in my cool (60-70 degree basement.) by the enclosed aquarium bulb.

Both have made very good baby enclosures as the humidity can easily be increased by a little misting, and both hold in humidity far more effectively than screen topped glass.

Do watch out for excess humidity tho- Butlers do well in the higher humidity, as they like to sun themselves for many hours a day on a twig, but other species that like dryer environments ( like checkers), will have to be watched closely for scale problems.

They make great moist habitats for snakes with retained shed tho- and they are soooo easy to clean and sterilize with bleach.

[Light of Dae]

He (George) has now finally popped his head out of the shavings since I put him in there yesterday. He had been hiding, presumably mad at me for the 3 hour ride in a truck that needs shocks n front end work on highways that need repair. I don't really blame him. He is poking around now, watching my kitty (Piggy) go nuts over a ball in front of his tank. He did take a drink of water before going into hiding last night.
Oh Piggy just spotted George watching her n is now watching him watching her lol

Don't anyone worry my tanks are both snake escape proof n kitty proof.

I think my Radix (now being called Babs from Animaniacs / Tiny Toons) is really jealous... She (Steve your going to love this..) Pooped in her water for the first time ever. Up until now she hadn't ever done that. She's jealous. lol

[EasternGirl]

Beautiful snake! Glad you have him home. Any ideas for a name yet?

[chris-uk]

He (George)



Beautiful snake! Glad you have him home. Any ideas for a name yet?

:)

[Light of Dae]

I wonder if Babs will ever forgive me....
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Maybe with a bribe or two...
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Hmm this picture(Below) Shows her color much better
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OH and Just for you Steve.... lol
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[guidofatherof5]

Good radix, good radix.

[Light of Dae]

HA George likes music!!! I was doing some cleaning around the house n put on some Freddie Eaglesmith and wouldn't you know it, within 30sec *Pop* There's his head sticking out lol Now here's the funny part. I hit pause to answer the phone and looked for George and he was retreating to the hide lol there he stayed till I was off the phone n turned the music back on lol Jamming George!

[EasternGirl]

When I used to have Cee Cee and Seeley together and I had their tank next to the television, they would always come out and get really active when the t.v. was on.

[ConcinusMan]

I like these heat pads because they don't get as hot as reptile heat pads, but get warm enough. When I have litters to raise, I use this pad underneath one end of plastic shoe box tubs. I can heat several tubs at once. It won't melt the plastic or burn your snakes. Better IMO and cheaper than reptile heat pads.

Amazon.com: Hydrofarm MT10006 9-by-19-1/2-Inch Seedling Heat Mat: Home & Garden (http://www.amazon.com/Hydrofarm-MT10006--19-1-2-Inch-Seedling/dp/B0001WV010/ref=sr_1_1?s=home-garden&ie=UTF8&qid=1325368992&sr=1-1)

[EasternGirl]

I think you told me about those last year...I might order one of those as soon as I have some money for my baby albino. Do you use a thermostat with those?

[ConcinusMan]

No thermostat. I just use rectangular tubs and only place one end (about 1/4 of it) on the pad. I don't use substrate in the tubs, just paper towels, but it works fine with an inch of substrate too.

[EasternGirl]

Okay...great, thanks.

[Light of Dae]

Figured I'd post a few pictures of George and his enclosure :)
Going for a swim
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The purple flowers just make his green stand out
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Side view
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And one of Babs just for fun

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...Man am I ever glad I bought myself a camera :)

[guidofatherof5]

Good looking Checkered.
Is Babs a male?

[EasternGirl]

Very pretty snakes!

[Light of Dae]

I'm not sure if Babs is male or female.. I should get some pictures eh?

[guidofatherof5]

I say male from the looks of that face/head structure. An under tail photo would be great.

[EasternGirl]

Yes! My latest thing is trying to sex snakes via pics...I think I'm getting rather good at it (if I don't say so myself..pat pat).

[guidofatherof5]

I say male from the looks of that face/head structure. An under tail photo would be great.

I've been working on sexing some garters by head structure but always backup that guess with a good photo of the under side tail.
I would never solely rely on this as a way to sex garters. It's only a piece of the puzzle.

[Light of Dae]

3661366236633664

Here's some tail photos for ya... I am almost thinking male? I had thought female at first but I no know.

[snakehill]

Yes Please! :) Shoot! Slow computer!

[guidofatherof5]

3661366236633664

Here's some tail photos for ya... I am almost thinking male? I had thought female at first but I no know.

That third photo is the most telling.
I see a nice smooth taper from the vent. The tail doesn't retain any width down from the vent/cloaca. Just a nice steady taper.
FEMALE I would say. FEMALE.

This shows me that using head structure/size as the only sexing observation would be a bad idea.;)

[EasternGirl]

Really? I'm saying male...I see no taper. Is it possible to get a straight pic of the tail? Could you hold the snake straight? You know more than me Steve...but I am not seeing the taper.

When I am looking in my Evolution and Ecology book...that looks exactly like the male diagram.

[ConcinusMan]

FEMALE I would say. FEMALE.

This shows me that using head structure/size as the only sexing observation would be a bad idea.;)

I would say female but a shot of the whole snake from above and from the side, while the snake is just sitting on something would help.


Really? I'm saying male...I see no taper.

The area immediately after the vent isn't as wide as the area immediately before the vent. Looks female.

[EasternGirl]

Well then I am completely lost on this whole sexing thing because that tail looks exactly like the tail in the male pic on page 126 in the Evolution and Ecology book...it doesn't look like the female pic at all...or like my female's tail. On the female tail pic in the photo on page 126 the tail tapers in noticeably after the cloaca...that is how Cee Cee's tail tapers...it goes in and then back out again. I don't see that at all on this snakes tail. I would really like to see a straight pic of the tail.

[chris-uk]

I would go female too. Steady taper with no width maintained after the cloacha.

[Stefan-A]

I'm too lazy to get off my ***, walk 2 meters to the book shelf and check, but I think those pictures deliberately exaggerated the characteristics to better explain what the differences are.

I'm leaning towards female.

[guidofatherof5]

Here you go.

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/medium/sexing_diagram.jpg

[EasternGirl]

I'm so confused now. Can you please try to get a pic of the tail held straight so that I can stop being confused? Because now I am right back to square one with this sexing...

[Light of Dae]

Hmm She/He lol is really hard to hold straight lol Babs is always 'tail wrapping' anything n everything from my fingers to the camera wrist string lol when I took those I literally had to untie her/his tail from the wrist string. lol It was a neat little knot I think she was just trying to steal my camera. She wouldn't let go of it lol

I had originally thought female as well but then I got George and his tail looks mighty similar but longer.. but he is bigger as well... Maybe I'll try popping ... Any tips?

[EasternGirl]

From what everyone has told me popping is difficult and not such a good idea. I tried it once with Seeley and I had no luck and then I just worried all day that I hurt him.

[guidofatherof5]

Injuries can occur if it's not done right. I've never done it.
I find tail structure to be the best/safest way.

[EasternGirl]

If Steve, Chris, Richard and Stefan are all saying female...I'd go with female. They have been doing this a long time. I just started trying to sex based on tail structure.

[ConcinusMan]

Injuries can occur if it's not done right. I've never done it.
I find tail structure to be the best/safest way.

Agreed. I've seen people that were so confident they could pop a garter and ended up hurting them, or at best, calling them female just because nothing came out. I don't recommend it. It's not necessary. Not all males have a bulge after the cloaca. However, if it's a male, the width of the tail after the cloaca is usually about the same width of the body before the cloaca. If you look at the width right before the cloaca, and see that the tail isn't as wide right after the cloaca, you have a female. Hope that made sense.:cool:

[ConcinusMan]

If Steve, Chris, Richard and Stefan are all saying female...I'd go with female. They have been doing this a long time.

That's not to say we've never been wrong. I certainly have been wrong before. Usually with very young snakes. It's much easier to be certain if the snake is at least 12 inches long, or about a year old. When visually sexing neonates, I only get about 90 percent accuracy. After a year old, or 12 inches, accuracy is nearly 100% just by sexing visually.

[EasternGirl]

Well yeah...a couple of people on here thought Seeley was female based on pics...but he was only about 8 or 9 inches long at the time...he was young.

[ConcinusMan]

If I'm sexing visually from just a picture, the margin of error does go up. I have to actually hold the snake and examine it in person to get a better idea of what sex it is. If the snake is very small and/or young, the margin of error also goes up a bit.:cool:

I did visually sex two WC newborn concinnus' back in the late 80's and raised them up to a ripe old age. I wanted a pair when I collected them, and I wanted babies. They were with me a long time. (male 18yrs, 3ft, female 21 yrs, 3.5 ft). Apparently I got it right. In their lifetime with me, they produced litters and I released 150 yearlings back where I found the pair.:D

[chris-uk]

If Steve, Chris, Richard and Stefan are all saying female...I'd go with female. They have been doing this a long time. I just started trying to sex based on tail structure.
Don't put me in the same league as those 3. I'm struggling to work out which of our blacknecks is male and which is female, or if both are actually female (Sjoerd and Claudia sexed them as a pair, and I'm going with their experienced eye over mine and Char's for now) these western blacknecks are so long and slender (like... 6 months old, 42cm long and 22g) that they're actually pretty difficult to sex, but they'll get easier as they approach a year old.

[Stefan-A]

Don't put me in any league.

[guidofatherof5]

I want out too. :D

I just get lucky. ;)

[chris-uk]

So Richard is in a league of his own. :)

[EasternGirl]

But you guys are my snake guys...you are a league of garter guys...

[Light of Dae]

Well yeah...a couple of people on here thought Seeley was female based on pics...but he was only about 8 or 9 inches long at the time...he was young.

Haha yea when you did your thread "Dude looks likes a lady" I couldn't help but think of the song and picture Robin Williams with pie dripping off his face Heeelllooooo lol

I'll agree and say female, That is what I had originally thought as well.

On a George note, he is settling in nicely. Currently basking on top his vines and just watching me :) I think I'll offer him some worms.. I only got a pinkie n a half left and the store is out of them. Don't wanna try fuzzies cause I'd be scared about compaction. However if it comes down to it I could skin it....

[tress29]

Just cut it into small pieces before you thaw it.

[EasternGirl]

Okay...that might be where I would have to draw the line. Nope..you know what? I was about to say at least that is one thing we did not have to do in nursing school. But now that I think about it...we did have to skin the cat too. We had to dissect cats and yep...we had to skin them too. So I guess skinning a mouse wouldn't be that big of a deal...carry on!

[Light of Dae]

lol Just thought of this.. Shaving it would work n be easier as well lol
But alas that's only if the store doesn't get more soon. Or I could head up to the city... But I don't really wanna drive for an hour just for pinkies. It would be a different story if my car was on the road instead of parked for the winter. I LOVE LOVE LOVE driving my little car, its so fun :D

[EasternGirl]

Well I hope the store gets more soon!

[kimbosaur]

Imagine somebody walks in and sees you shaving a dead mouse. That would be fun to explain. Lol!

[EasternGirl]

ROFL...I have already had to explain cutting up worms with scissors, putting dead pinkies in cups of hot water to thaw them...and oh.. here is a great one...standing in my back yard in the rain in the middle of the night with a flashlight screaming obscenities at worms as they quickly duck back into the soil and I am trying to catch them! My neighbors think I am completely bonkers!

[kibakiba]

It's okay Marnie, you can admit to being crazy here. You're in good company. We won't judge you. :D

[chris-uk]

It's okay Marnie, you can admit to being crazy here. You're in good company. We won't judge you. :D
Yes we will. Marnie, you are completely bonkers.

[kibakiba]

You should meet me in real life. I should totally be put in a loony bin.

[chris-uk]

You should meet me in real life. I should totally be put in a loony bin.
My cousin is a psychiatric nurse, she says that patients who are sane enough to want to be on a psych ward don't need to be there, it's the ones that don't want to be there that need to be there. :)
And in the UK it's not particularly easy to force someone to accept treatment.

But I'll take your word for it Chantel, you're a nutter too. :)

[kibakiba]

Oh, I don't want to be, but I've always been told I need it.

[chris-uk]

Oh, I don't want to be, but I've always been told I need it.
In that case, according to my cousin's definition you are nuts.

[kibakiba]

Oh thanks. I was hoping that I wouldn't need it. I'll just lock myself in my room and talk to my snakes. :D

[EasternGirl]

I was a psychotherapist...and your cousin is correct...if a person realizes they're nuts and admits to needing help...they usually aren't that bad off. Furthermore, the fact that I was a psychotherapist just confirms that you are correct that I am bonkers...the people that try to fix the nutters are usually the nuttiest. Chantel, if you think the snakes start answering you...then you should start to worry! Lol...unless they are telling you what you want to hear...then you are fine :D.

[guidofatherof5]

All I ever hear is "FEED ME" :D

[EasternGirl]

When you are lying in bed at night Steve...do you sometimes hear those little snaky voices crying out to you..."Feed me, Steve! Feed me!!!"...lol.

[guidofatherof5]

When you are lying in bed at night Steve...do you sometimes hear those little snaky voices crying out to you..."Feed me, Steve! Feed me!!!"...lol.

Sleep? Who sleeps. :D

[EasternGirl]

This is true...you have to keep watch for snakes trying to steal food from the refrigerator in the middle of the night!

[kibakiba]

You sure that's not a hallucination? :D

[chris-uk]

And also monitor the cctv watching for squads of ninja mongooses "liberating" those black and whites.

[EasternGirl]

Tee hee...

[guidofatherof5]

And also monitor the cctv watching for squads of ninja mongooses "liberating" those black and whites.

It will take more then ninja mongooses to get anywhere near them.

[ConcinusMan]

...screaming obscenities at worms as they quickly duck back into the soil and I am trying to catch them! My neighbors think I am completely bonkers!

Try covering the light so that it is very dim, preferably with something red and only semi-transparent. Also, walk very, very softly. They tend to react later and slower when the light is dim and red.

[EasternGirl]

I actually go without a flashlight sometimes because there is enough light in the backyard that I can see...I will try going in darker spots doing what you suggested though...but those worms out there...if they feel any vibrations from me getting near them...they go right back down in the dirt...I try sneaking up (I'm telling you if any of my neighbors are watching...they think I'm insane)..and I swear the worms have ESP or something!

[Light of Dae]

lol I used to keep plywood on the ground and lift it up and the worms would just be hanging out there... :) However for the tricky worms I kept a spoon with me so that when they started to disappear I could make them Reappear :D

Yay for spoons.


George is really starting to come out of his shell right now he is staring at me through his purple flowers lol I think he may be hungry... He ate one tiny piece of worm yesterday but didn't eat the rest! I will try a pinkie mouse see if he likes that. Geeze and I thought Babs was picky lol

[EasternGirl]

Yesterday I gave Cee Cee two pinkies and then she decided to stare at me for the longest time giving me her best "I am a sad starving snake...aren't I so cute and pathetic looking?" face...aren't they so good at that? I know she is a piggers and can actually eat five pinkies in a row...but I am trying to feed her less at a time and more often so I don't overfeed her...but she is not liking it at all! I had to move something in her tank after I fed her and she starting coming toward my fingers with that look on her face that says she will eat my fingers gladly if I refuse to give her more food! I just got my hand out of the tank as fast as I could!

[Light of Dae]

Well I am pleased with myself lol I found a nice big tank at a Value Village that I will make into Georges tank. I'll Take pictures of it in a bit here, the lid is one I've seen in pet stores for snake / lizard tanks but I'd be concerned that escape artists like Garters are could get wedged in it... It reminds me of a hamster cage. So I'm going to have to retro fit this lid with some screening. (Good thing a bought a big roll of metal mesh screen)

I am also making another awesome fake rock for this tank, this one will be a custom fit type deal. I'll keep y'all updated. I think this is going to be an epic tank set up. ... I'm going to have to start making more fake rocks n sell them, lol I'm getting better :D Plus I have found a place to get styrofoam 2inch thick for a decent price.

3693
The substrate that is in there is what came with it. Will be thrown out n the tank cleaned.

36943695
The unfinished project :) It fits perfectly in what will be the warm side of the tank. Still am debating whether or not to silacone in place or if I should leave it so that I can take it out.. It will be easy to clean in tank, and will be impossible to squish between it and the glass as it is now.. We'll see :)

[chris-uk]

I'd keep it removable.
You should start a new thread if this is going to be an epic tank build. And can you remind me what you use to coat the polystyrene?

[Light of Dae]

Yay so George ate his pinkie last night! Now I just need to convert him to eat during the day! I'd much prefer him to eat when I'm watching him. Will start new thread for new tank :D

[guidofatherof5]

Glad to hear George ate. The glass is half full :D

[tress29]

I actually go without a flashlight sometimes because there is enough light in the backyard that I can see...I will try going in darker spots doing what you suggested though...but those worms out there...if they feel any vibrations from me getting near them...they go right back down in the dirt...I try sneaking upOne of my co-workers goes out with his grandsons to catch worms for me! The boys love any excuse to pick up worms.:D

[EasternGirl]

I had that same problem with Hermes when I first got him...he only wanted to eat at like 3 in the morning. Now he will eat in the evening when I feed the others...thankfully!

[tress29]

All three of mine ate while I was watching tonight. The little Eastern ate the biggest worm bite!

[EasternGirl]

That's good news Theresa!

[Spankenstyne]

Glad to see he's doing well :D

George should have no problems eating pinkies, they were the majority of his diet for the last couple of months before you got him. I wouldn't worry about fuzzies having hair they can handle it just fine if it's appropriate sized.

[ConcinusMan]

Imagine somebody walks in and sees you shaving a dead mouse. That would be fun to explain. Lol!

I find it's much easier to just literally peel them like an orange while they are frozen solid.

[Light of Dae]

lol Good to know!

Hey I know this is labeled 'heat options in a plastic tank' but how would you heat in a wooden tank? It's nothing I'm going to have for a while just been thinking about getting or making.

[ConcinusMan]

So Richard is in a league of his own. :)

You got that right. I think I might be the only one still here who has in the past received a temporary ban from the forum.:rolleyes: