Unexpected sausage

[gregmonsta]

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/medium/Fawns2.JPG

The situation I currently find myself in with Fawn -

Before getting the chance to think about brumation I noticed I had more of a sausage than a snake on my hands.

Bumpy feelings confirmed my suspicions.

Has been eating like a pig.

Appears now to be headed towards delivery anytime soonish.

Current weight 313 ... 60+ grams on her topped out weight before the slugfest earlier in the year.

Currenlty not willing to raise my hopes to anything other than a slug party considering the slugs delivered earlier in the year - as well as her not having been with the male since February/March time (not ruling out detained white swimmers in her uteri though).

Will keep you posted ...

[BUSHSNAKE]

geeez. thats a nice....parietalis?

[gregmonsta]

She is indeed. ;)

[guidofatherof5]

Hoping you get a bunch of little squiggly gifts for Christmas.
She's big, bold and beautiful.

[ScimitarX]

Fingers crossed for a nice result. :)

[EasternGirl]

She is plump indeed! Will hope for a good outcome as well.

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

Unexpected sausage! It's so much more suspenseful than a sausage you have been expecting.

[zooplan]

what a nice compliment ,-)

@Shanon
BTW: You should carry a nice planet these days too,
hope it is still comfortable for you 8-P!

[reptileparadise]

She's looking like a true sausage indeed Greg!
Lets hope things will work out better this time. Always feels good to become a grampy again ;)

The thickening doesn't look to be far to the back yet?

[PINJOHN]

good luck with this Greg, after your terrible summer i have everything crossed for you

[gregmonsta]

She's looking like a true sausage indeed Greg!
Lets hope things will work out better this time. Always feels good to become a grampy again ;)

The thickening doesn't look to be far to the back yet?

She was starting to act suspicious a couple of days ago. A bit of panting, a bit of pushing and seeming to want to start moving things down. I'll be offering food today but I'm fairly sure she'll refuse considering her behaviour is anything but the 'norm' at the moment.
If she doesn't eat she'll get a quick once over. ;) will grab a couple of extra pics if I can.

Edit - Thinking back she didn't carry the last package 'low' before delivery. Certainly not as low as Suzy did.

[chris-uk]

Here's hoping for a special delivery in time for Christmas. :)

[pauleve]

looking really nice hope this works out for you :)

[RedSidedSPR]

Niiiiice. Lots o' babies in there! Good luck

[ConcinusMan]

Unexpected sausage! It's so much more suspenseful than a sausage you have been expecting.

Oh, the smart alec things I could say in response to that....

But anyway...

That's a really plump and healthy looking expecting girl there. And the snake is nice too.:p

[gregmonsta]

Well, she did eat today - but not as much as normal. Took another couple of pics which I'll try to post tomorrow.

[gregmonsta]

Now she's gone from normal yesterday to 'half-milky' today. Speedy shed appears to be imminent ... so, hopefully, the post-shed countdown to the big squeeze.

[guidofatherof5]

We are all on the edge of our seats with anticipation.
Best wishes to Fawn.

[EasternGirl]

Hope everything goes well for her!!!

[Mommy2many]

Fingers crossed! Nice to see you on again!

[gregmonsta]

A couple of pics from a couple o' days ago -

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//753/medium/vfghyjnbgyuik.JPG

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//753/medium/jkhgholkm.JPG

[guidofatherof5]

She's sweet.
How do those cardboard chips work as substrate?

[EasternGirl]

It's the.....sausage!!!

[kibakiba]

What a ham!

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

I'm also curious about how the carboard chips work and more importantly how can I make them?!?! We get TONS.... and I mean TONS of cardboard at work and I am free to take as much as I need. If I could turn it into substrate.... well.... that would just be dandy.

[gregmonsta]

I updated an old thread on this stuff the other day - http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/husbandry/7858-new-substrate-5.html

It works very well and I'll be sticking with it ;).

Fawn has shed and eaten today ... doing the slightly sideways slither that only a gravid girly can perfect :rolleyes:

[reptileparadise]

...can you just imagine how she would have looked like if she was high red? ;)

fingers crossed mate....

[Light of Dae]

:D Can't wait to see the little ones! Best of luck Fawn!

Btw when I first saw the title Unexpected Sausage.... I burst out laughing, literary. However seeing as this is a ... PG forum so I'll refrain from saying the joke that had run through my mind :)

[PINJOHN]

:D Can't wait to see the little ones! Best of luck Fawn!

Btw when I first saw the title Unexpected Sausage.... I burst out laughing, literary. However seeing as this is a ... PG forum so I'll refrain from saying the joke that had run through my mind :)

Wash your mind out young lady :D

[Light of Dae]

Wash your mind out young lady :D

Come at me with soap!!! I %&!#$&%^& @$%^#$%^ Dare YA!!


:D Don't mind me, just a very Sarcastic Soul here :rolleyes:

[RedSidedSPR]

She's awesome!!!! Much more red then mine! Love it!

[EasternGirl]

I updated an old thread on this stuff the other day - http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/husbandry/7858-new-substrate-5.html

It works very well and I'll be sticking with it ;).

This stuff looks very cool but this is a British link...do you have any idea if this substrate is available in the states??

Fawn has shed and eaten today ... doing the slightly sideways slither that only a gravid girly can perfect :rolleyes:

This substrate looks very cool but this is a British link. Do you have any idea if you can get the substrate in the states??

[Light of Dae]

I'd just take clean cardboard boxes n cut them up... I wouldn't buy it personally just because it would be so simple to make... Could be just my personal opinion though. I'm always looking for the cheap alternative without compromising quality too terribly much :)

Can't wait to see them scrubs :D If only it were easier to ship to Canada..

[gregmonsta]

lol, I would consider making it myself but for the price of £13 I can save my self a lot of hassle ;). It's primary purpose is for horses so you might find it hunting through horsey things.

[gregmonsta]

Update - weight - 366g on the 28th (313 on the 14th) and still munching

Dilemma ... going on holiday for 10 days tomorrow ... I've left detailed instructions for Andy and he may or may not end up on here to desperately seek advice if anything occurs ... I really hope nothing does 'pop' up (or, indeed, out) but I trust you guys to supply him with the best advice out there ;)

[guidofatherof5]

We'll all pitch in and help. ;)

[Mommy2many]

Keepin fingers crossed, Greg! Don't wanna jinx ya! Love hearing about the unexpected sausage though!

[EasternGirl]

Hoping for the best for you!!!

[thamneil]

Such a pretty parietalis! Shes gonna make some nice babies!

-Neil

[Kantar]

When choosing cardboard inspect your cardboard, B or C-flute is the best because they don't us as much glue inside th cardboard, also make sure the finish is not glossy, that would be michalmans cardboard which haS waterproof chemicals

YUou can tell apart b and c flut by th space of th lins, 5/16 for cflut and 1/4 inch for bflut

also, please don't try corrcting th splling, my E button is on its last lgs

[ConcinusMan]

At least it's a vowel. You can leave those out and people can still read it. At least I can.

[EasternGirl]

I hope Fawn is okay...Greg has been away on vacation and she is due to deliver soon I think.

[Light of Dae]

hmmm Everytime I see the title of this thread I miss Manitoba Farmer Sausage, nobody makes it like the Mennonites do. Haven't found anything that comes close to it round here.
mm Gotta make homemade perogies again someday... mmmm

Hope Fawn is doing ok... When does Greg get back?

[EasternGirl]

Yeah...we need an update on Fawn!

[andycul]

Greg's flatmate here with a wee update, lol. Fawn is still more of a sausage that a snake just now and I have to say I'm kinda glad. I was so nervous that she would deliver lots of little snakies when Greg was away, so nervous I even created a skype account ready to call Steve just incase, lol. Like I said to Greg before he left "I've never looked after 1 adult snake on my own never mind the other 9 and however many babies she might have."
I'm sure Greg will be back on soon and I hope he wont mind me giving you guys an update :)

[guidofatherof5]

Thanks.
Skype on friend.;)

[Mommy2many]

Glad to hear she's still a sausage!

[andycul]

Glad to hear she's still a sausage!

Not as glad as I am ;)

[EasternGirl]

Thanks so much for the update! Greg had mentioned that you might come on if you needed advice...I'm sure he will understand that we were all wondering about Fawn and be glad that you gave us an update :).

[gregmonsta]

Hey guys, official update:

Fawn still a sausage.
Fawn currently mid-shed (last shed around 15/12 ... one month ago - normal shed cycle every 3months) and has refused food today (something not in this girls character as she'll normally take food at any time).
She also hissed at the food and struck at it (ie ... "Leave you alone you fiendish morsel of food!!!!")
weight progression - mid-2011 - 253g
11/12/2011 - 313g
28/12/2011 - 366g
12/01/2012 - 374g
.... tick, tock, tick, tock ...

[EasternGirl]

Thanks for the update! Welcome back. How was your vacation? We were definitely thinking of Fawn and hoping she was okay while you were gone. Andy was kind enough to come on here and let us know how she was doing.

[gregmonsta]

The holiday was fantastic, thanks ;). I'll be putting some slideshows together at some point soon ... :D I'm sure the pics I took in the reptile section of the Krakow Aquarium/natural history museum will be of interest.

[EasternGirl]

Oh wow! Looking forward to seeing those!

[gregmonsta]

Shed today ... and has been more skittish than usual. I'm planning to weigh her and take a couple of snaps later ;)

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

I sense an impending explosion....

[Ozz465]

I sense an impending explosion....Same here, cant wait , GL.

[gregmonsta]

weight progression - mid-2011 - 253g
11/12/2011 - 313g
28/12/2011 - 366g
12/01/2012 - 374g
19/01/2012 - 364g

So lost 10g during shed cycle ... although she was back to food yesterday :rolleyes:. Currently lying about looking depressed :p

[gregmonsta]

Some pics as I had her out for a slither. Can't believe how long she is thesedays.

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//753/medium/fffffawn.JPG

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//753/medium/fffffawn2.JPG

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//753/medium/fffffawn22.JPG

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//753/medium/fffffawn222.JPG

[EasternGirl]

Big girl! Love that last pic of her face! She's a very pretty snake. Perhaps the depression is pregnancy mood swings...I can remember not being too happy during the late stages of pregnancy with my son...not too comfortable! ;).

[guidofatherof5]

A big, long beautiful girl.

[kibakiba]

She's a beauty, Greg.

[ScimitarX]

Gorgeous :D

[Mommy2many]

Greg, any updates?

[EasternGirl]

Yes! How is our girl doing these days?

[katach]

She is a beauty! Can't wait to see those babes.

[gregmonsta]

Getting much closer now - two feeds ago she only half-heartedly took one item and yesterday she refused food completely. Comparing her weights to what the pattern was last year then it's got to be ... soon :rolleyes: .... I just have no reference point on this one ... it was 135 days from mating to slugfest last time.
Knowing her she'll keep me going for another month ... :o

[EasternGirl]

Hey Greg...sorry but I think I wasn't around for slugfest...so I am not really sure what happened there. Fawn had stillborns last year?

[chris-uk]

Hey Greg...sorry but I think I wasn't around for slugfest...so I am not really sure what happened there. Fawn had stillborns last year?
That would be a good guess Marnie. I think I recall reading that all of Fawn's litter last year were slugs.

[katach]

I hope she gives you a bunch of beautiful squiggles this time.

Marnie, Slug- unfertilized egg. There are lots of terms that are used that need translation at first. :D

[EasternGirl]

Thanks, Kat...wasn't familiar with that term. So a snake can be gravid and then give birth to unfertilized eggs? I think I need further explanation here please...

[katach]

They ovulate when they want. If they haven't mated, there is no fertilization and they birth just the egg.

[EasternGirl]

I see...thanks for explaining that to me.

[katach]

No prob.

[gregmonsta]

Thought I'd update with a behavioural report - She's spending her time between only two 'zones' of the viv. In shifts of approx 30 mins she's spending her time between the hotspot, 29-31C, and the center of the enclosure, 24-26C. She's been a lot more visible over the last 3 days with this constant obsession with thermoregulation.

[EasternGirl]

Thanks for the update Greg. Fingers crossed.

[gregmonsta]

Had a restless snake for four days now .... :rolleyes:

[BUSHSNAKE]

wow, should be very soon

[EasternGirl]

Very exciting Greg! Keep us posted!

[Mommy2many]

Can't wait!

[PINJOHN]

Well......whats the latest news ..i have worn a patch in the carpet and gone through six packs of cigarettes....and i don't even smoke :confused:

[EasternGirl]

And I drank a bottle of Jack Daniels and smoked 15 cigars! I don't drink or smoke cigars! Come on Fawn...look what you're doing to us! ;).

[gregmonsta]

:p she's still just cruising ...

[ConcinusMan]

They ovulate when they want. If they haven't mated, there is no fertilization and they birth just the egg.

And sometimes that happens even if they have mated. A number of things can go wrong causing the eggs to be infertile. In contrast, sometimes northwesterns give birth to live babies when they haven't mated in over a year. They can store sperm for a long time and use it when they're ready. Sometimes they'll mate to get fresh sperm, and then not even get gravid (not ovulate)

[EasternGirl]

I thought that all female garters could store sperm for up to two years. Is that not the case?

[ConcinusMan]

Perhaps they can. But whether they do as a matter of routine, is another thing. Northwesterns are the only species I've kept that regularly do this. Sometimes they'll mate with several males in the spring and not have babies. Then they'll mate again in the fall, and again, not have babies. Come spring, they'll mate again and finally get gravid. This makes it very difficult to know who the father is. In fact, a single litter can have multiple fathers.

All others I've kept, get gravid as soon as they mate, and do not get gravid unless they just mated. Dang northwesterns can up and have a litter even if they haven't mated in a year or two.

So, I don't know if they can store it, but I do know that I've never had a concinnus have an unexpected litter. Litters have always followed a spring mating.

I think it's just certain species / subspecies that tend to store sperm. Storing it, and having more control over when they get gravid is definitely an advantage to species that occur in cooler, more northern climates with short summer seasons.

[EasternGirl]

Have you ever kept easterns? Do you know if it's something they tend to do? I'm just wondering because of Cee Cee. Since she was gravid when I found her last May...obviously she mated when she was out there in the wild. And now there is the possibility she mated with my male...just wondering if she could store sperm and become gravid at a later date.

[gregmonsta]

This was her 'resting' last night:

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//753/medium/DSC_1065.JPG

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//753/medium/DSC_1071.JPG

So far today she's still doing laps of her tank, has climbed everything about twice and keeps stopping to stare vacantly in to space.

[indigoman]

Thanks for the update, the suspense is nerve wracking

[Selkielass]

Anticipaaaaaaaaaaaa...tion!

[gregmonsta]

I put a fresh wetbox in just over an hour ago .... she climbed straight in ... currently she is moving in circles and appears to be having contractions :D

[EasternGirl]

Oh wow! This is so exciting! I feel like we should all be sitting around on skype watching this on a webcam...that would be so cool...

[gregmonsta]

So far .... I'm starting a slug collection .... not terribly exciting viewing as it would be :o

[chris-uk]

Not a good start then Greg. Hope it gets better and isn't another slugfest.

[gregmonsta]

Add a stillborn to that :rolleyes: .... so far :D ...

[guidofatherof5]

Hoping for the best outcome Greg.
Keep us posted.

[EasternGirl]

Oh no, Greg...I'm so sorry. Hopefully she will deliver a few live babies. Keep us posted. Keeping my fingers crossed for you.

[chris-uk]

Add a stillborn to that :rolleyes: .... so far :D ...
If you got a stillborn at least you know some were fertilised. Fingers crossed.

[gregmonsta]

Nothing more so far .... the occaisional orange puddle .... still squeezing :rolleyes: ... even with one stillborn its the best result I've ever had :rolleyes:

[Mommy2many]

Still hoping!

[EasternGirl]

Oh, poor Fawn...any live ones Greg?

[katach]

Good luck Greg.

[gregmonsta]

Nothing new to report this morning .... Orange messes but no more signs of potential babies ... contractions appear to have stopped .... she'll get a proper once over after work ;)

[PINJOHN]

clicked on to this thread with the highest expectations ... absolutely gutted to read the above posts, nobody puts more in than you Greg this is an unwelcome example of just how perverse nature can be....so sorry

[guidofatherof5]

Sorry to hear this news.
Hoping Fawn makes a speedy recovery.

[gregmonsta]

It's just one of those things mate. I thought from the start that it would only be slugs so the 'stillborn' was a bonus. She's also still quite young at 2.5ish years old. I know her bits are working though ;) ... a good sign for the future and some positive high hopes for next time.

On another note - extra info on the 'stillborn' - very kinked along one side of its body, and possibly alive until birth. Touching it produced nerve reactions, the tongue potruded and retracted once but no breathing was observed. It was a male - the hemipenes everted shortly after delivery (un-aided). I took some pics last night and I'll try to post them later today.

Ponderings - Not sure what to do with Fawn now - brumation is out of the question so shortly after birth. I'm guessing I'll have to keep a vigil through the year and monitor her weight. I should probably do a short brumation for the male and then shack them up together in April ... No idea.

[EasternGirl]

Greg...so sorry to hear there wasn't a better outcome for Fawn. I really had my hopes up for the beautiful girl this time. Lets just hope she has some babies in her future....and if not, she is still a wonderful, gorgeous girl that brings you much joy and that is what really matters :). Poor Andy...guess there will not be a new snakey :o. We better get to work on getting a snake for Andy!

[gregmonsta]

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//753/medium/fsq.JPG

Some squeezings above.

Here's the 'almost':

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/medium/quaz.JPG

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/medium/quaz2.JPG

[chris-uk]

Not the best outcome. I think it's a case of keeping her fed up to get her weight back on, then brumate her in the autumn to line up a more successful breeding season next year. If you shack them up again before brumating Fawn she's going to be using old ova, perhaps what she needs is a good brumate to stimulate fresh ova production. And Sod's Law would have it that she'd show signs of gravidity just as you're preparing to brumate her if you put them together again this year.

[EasternGirl]

Poor little baby...he looked like he was a good size...sorry you didn't make it little fella :(. Sorry Fawn...better luck to you next time girl.

[gregmonsta]

Not the best outcome. I think it's a case of keeping her fed up to get her weight back on, then brumate her in the autumn to line up a more successful breeding season next year. If you shack them up again before brumating Fawn she's going to be using old ova, perhaps what she needs is a good brumate to stimulate fresh ova production. And Sod's Law would have it that she'd show signs of gravidity just as you're preparing to brumate her if you put them together again this year.

I'm pretty sure vitellogenesis is triggered by bodymass and not brumation in thamnophis :rolleyes:. It's the males that need the cold snap more for better sperm motility/viability. The way she's been going there's nothing to say she won't naturally try again in 3/4 months time once she's all fed up again. I'm inclined to let her mate to make sure it's not yet another wasted effort, I'm still trying to decide actually, I'm not 100% for it yet but I may put Slithers in the cupboard just in case.

[Stefan-A]

Really sorry to hear about it, Greg. :(

Want a couple of wandering garters? ;)

[gregmonsta]

:rolleyes: You got your teleporter warmed up?

[Stefan-A]

Yeah, but so far I've only gotten it to transports neutrinos.

[chris-uk]

Yeah, but so far I've only gotten it to transports neutrinos.
And I bet you've only got it doing that at light speed?

[Stefan-A]

And I bet you've only got it doing that at light speed?
That's another problem, really. I can't seem to get them to move at light speed, they keep exceeding it.

[Mommy2many]

So sorry, Greg. I was really hoping Fawn would have some really cute babies for you. Like you said, she had one that almost made it, so you know she is capable. Take care of that girl and fingers crossed for next time.