Question about feeding

[acovert]

Hello,

I have a little question about feeding my baby garter.

He's about 6-7 inches long right now - about 3 to 3.5 months old, I think. He was born September sometime.

The people who had him before were convinced that he was eating crickets. He wasn't. I couldn't get him to eat the ones they gave me for him. A few days later, when I had transported him to Montana for school with me, I started him on fish. He took to those pretty quickly and that's what he's been living off of for a while now. I keep them in his tank/cage constantly, so he can eat them when he gets hungry, but I want to vary his diet some so that he's getting enough nutrition. So far he won't take anything that doesn't move, even if it's fish. Mice aren't an option right now. Maybe later, when I'm settled back at home, but not now.

I'm trying nightcrawlers. I bought some at Walmart and I'm trying to introduce him to them. However, he doesn't seem interested at all. He checked them out once, and now he's completely ignoring them. I figure it will take some time, but he tends to be picky. Is there any way I can encourage him to take the worms?

Also, are there any other foods that I can try? Or any supplements that I should be using?

[infernalis]

What kind of fish are you feeding, Certain fish contain the enzyme Thiaminase that can be harmful over the long term.

[acovert]

I'm honestly not sure. There isn't a label at Petco (at least not a legible one) and they just call them feeder fish here. The ones I usually get are grayish in color and relatively small. Petco's the only viable pet store in town. There's another store, but it looks....bad.

[guidofatherof5]

You might try scenting the worm pieces in fishy water.
Best of luck. Keep us posted on your progress.

[infernalis]

I'm honestly not sure. There isn't a label at Petco (at least not a legible one) and they just call them feeder fish here. The ones I usually get are grayish in color and relatively small. Petco's the only viable pet store in town. There's another store, but it looks....bad.

Sounds like Rosy reds, They contain Thiaminase. Ask and see if you can get feeder guppies.

I feed my snakes quite a bit of chopped up trout, other members feed tilapia & salmon.

[acovert]

I tried giving him some salmon that my roommate had bought. He wasn't interested in it if it wasn't moving. The fish the jerk at Petco gave me was the first thing I managed to get him to eat. Right now I'm trying to coax him into eating the nightcrawlers (which are extremely unpleasant to cut up).

I leave for home this Thursday. Portland is large enough that there are plenty of options when it comes to pet stores. I'll see if I can find feeder guppies when I get there - he won't eat much before then, and if I can get him onto the nightcrawlers for a few days then he won't need the fish. I'll see if I can find some chopped up fish that he will take at home as well - I'll have a lot more freedom there.

[EasternGirl]

Also...make certain they are nightcrawlers and not red wigglers...not trying to insult your intelligence if you do know the difference...some people do not. Red wigglers are very toxic to garter snakes. I didn't know the difference when I was first learning about snakes ;). You will get used to cutting up the nightcrawlers...it just takes a little time :). Try scissors...easier than using a knife.

[acovert]

They are Nightcrawlers! :) I found this forum trying to figure out what kind of worms to get and where to get them. I got these ones from Walmart and the package says nightcrawlers.

[EasternGirl]

Okay...just checking :). Good...now you just have to get him/her to eat them...lol. Don't worry...all my snakes would eat at first were worms...and now I have them eating pinkies and fish all the time! When you get home you will have more options...the people on this forum will work with you to help you getting your snake eating a well-rounded diet.

[acovert]

I want to know as much as I can before I go home because his brothers and sisters with his old owner aren't doing well and the owner wants me to look at them and see if I can give advice on how to make things better for them. They lost one of the babies recently, and I'd like to be able to tell them what they're doing wrong.

I tried the fish water. He ignored them and now he's looking for the fish that are normally in his water dish. I think the worm that I cut up is dead now, anyways. He probably won't take it if that's the case. He showed a little interest when they were still moving.

[EasternGirl]

Yeah...if the worm is dead...don't give it to him. Take it out of his enclosure. Snakes can go a while without eating...when was the last time he ate? When did you say you were going home?

[acovert]

We're driving home this coming Thursday. The last time he ate was early Thursday. It was a very small fish.

[EasternGirl]

Hmmm...yeah..he probably needs to eat...but I hesitate telling you to feed him the fish that you have been feeding him because it may be dangerous for him. Do you have anymore worms?

[acovert]

I have 18 worms left. I'm trying another now. I threw the old one out, since it died.

[guidofatherof5]

Just making sure these are night crawlers and not panfish worms?

[acovert]

They are nightcrawlers. I was careful about what I chose.

[EasternGirl]

Okay...if you have any fish left...take a fish and rub it all over one of the worms...if not, that's okay...I don't think you have to cut the worm up...the snake should be able to eat the worm whole...you can cut it in half for starters...my snake Cee Cee would not eat cut-up worms at first...she still prefers them whole. If you have tweezers, you can take the worm and wiggle it in front of the snake's nose...that may help. The worm may seem big for your snake but snakes can eat food larger than their head...I have an albino who is four months and he can eat half a small pinky...which is about 3 times the size of his little head.

[acovert]

Alright. I'll try that. The worms are long, so I'm cutting them in half or thirds. they still move quite a lot after that.

[EasternGirl]

Yeah...they should keep moving for a while...you can put water on them to moisten them and that will help keep them alive longer. Also, keep the worms in your fridge and keep the dirt they are in moist...that will help keep them. I'll check back in a little while and see if you had any luck.

[acovert]

Yeah. I'm getting nowhere with this. He hides if I try to dangle it in front of him. And he refuses to touch it.

[kibakiba]

Scent it with fish.

[guidofatherof5]

Put the worm pieces in a shallow dish and set them under the hide.
Check in the morning to see if they've been eaten.

[acovert]

I've already scented them with fish. I put a new one in and I'll leave them in overnight.

He has to be hungry. He's looking for the fish. It's just a matter of convincing him that these are just as good.

[guidofatherof5]

Cut up pieces have a lot less chance at crawler out.
Maybe cut them into smaller chunks so they can't crawl out.

[acovert]

It's cut into 7 chunks.

[EasternGirl]

Yeah...you're just going to have to put them in a dish that they can't crawl out of and put them under his hide...moisten them a bit..or I would go ahead and put a bit of the fish water in the bottom of the dish to scent the worms and keep them from drying out during the night...if he is hungry enough, he will eat them. If worse comes to worse, he will survive until you get him home and get him some feeder guppies...when I got my new albino baby, he wouldn't eat for over a week after I got him and he is only four months old.

Let us know if he ate anything tomorrow...

[guidofatherof5]

Most will not crawl out as long as there's a lip on the dish you are using.

[acovert]

He's been sniffing at them since I put them in the hide. Hopefully I'll see some results by morning. I may be up all night anyways, so I can keep an eye on him.

[EasternGirl]

You sound like me :). Good luck!

[acovert]

Hey may have eaten a chunk. I'm not sure because he's now hiding underneath the hide. But one of the pieces are missing and it doesn't look like it crawled out. I can't be sure, though.

[EasternGirl]

What kind of substrate do you have him in? Make sure he doesn't ingest any if the worms do get out into the bedding. Hopefully he ate the chunk.

[chris-uk]

It sounds like he'll be persuaded to eat the crawlers eventually, hopefully he's eaten overnight.

Pulling back to an earlier thing you said, that the people you got him from aren't doing well with the babies. If they think that the babies are eating crickets that may explain why they are doing badly, garters don't eat crickets because the exoskeleton can't be digested. If you can point those owners at the forum we could help them as well.

[EasternGirl]

I was thinking the same thing, Chris. That maybe you could get them a caresheet or get them onto the forum. If they are still trying to feed their snakes crickets and haven't offered them anything else, the poor snakes. Anyway, I hope your snake ate last night. I forgot to ask if your snakey has a name?

[tress29]

You will get used to cutting up the nightcrawlers...it just takes a little time :). Try scissors...easier than using a knife. Um, NOT! I press down on the worm with the knife, then wiggle it back and forth to cut it. I tried the scissors and didn't like holding onto the squirming worm! I "eeew"ed my way through cutting pinkies the first time, but they're so much cleaner and easier than the worms.

Right now, I'm feeding them every other day, alternating worms with pinkies. They wouldn't eat the tilapia by itself, but ate the pieces I added to the pinkies.

[EasternGirl]

I don't know...stuff like that just doesn't bother me...of course, you should see the stuff I have to dissect in nursing school so...worms and pinkies aren't really anything compared to dead cats and cows and sheep and bull testicles. I had to cut the trachea out of a cat once...have to cut eyeballs out of animals....pretty much remove any organ my instructor asks us to. So worms don't really phase me.

[tress29]

worms and pinkies aren't really anything compared to dead cats and cows and sheep and bull testicles. Dead things, and frozen pinky mice don't wiggle!

[EasternGirl]

Ha ha..so it's the wiggling huh? I don't know...I think it would be worse to try to cut with a knife though...I just lay the worm down on a paper towel and then take the scissors and snip! I guess I have a system...lol.

[acovert]

I hate cutting the worms, personally. But when my mom and I used to fish, I had to bait the hooks with any worms we use - she won't touch them. But the wiggling and any juices that come out when I cut them does bother me.

As for the people I got my snake from...I had them try fish at some point. Since I'm not there I have no idea what fish they tried, but apparently the babies really liked them. Still, after they started on the fish, one died. The other 5 aren't doing so well. I don't think she'll have much time to join the site (she has a very busy schedule) but I can probably direct her to some care sheets via Facebook. She's my mom's friend, so I don't know her quite so well and don't talk to her too often. But her husband helps with my computer problems and I have to go over there as soon as I get home to fix my computer. I'll see what's going on with the babies then.

As for my snake (his/her name is Cuddles), he didn't touch the earthworms after all. I am going to remove the dead pieces and put in some new ones to keep trying. I still have 17 or 18 of them left, and I can easily go buy more at Walmart.

I must say, it was really interesting last night when I ran a tutoring session (I'm a writing tutor at this school) and the girl who came to my room saw me cutting up nightcrawlers.

[tress29]

But the wiggling and any juices that come out when I cut them does bother me.

I use the lid from a chip dip tub, cut the worm right on the lid, add a little water, and feed from the lid.

** I specifically use chip dip lids because they are white! They are not to be confused with my butter tub lids which are yellow and are used for packaging leftovers!

[EasternGirl]

Cuddles...right...you did say that. Okay...yeah...you just have to keep trying...sorry you didn't have any luck with the worms. That must have been interesting when you were cutting up the worms in front of the girl. I have had visitors here before when I was cutting worms or feeding my snakes and they thought I was nuts. As far as the people you got the snake from, why don't you email them the caresheet from our forum or take them a copy when you go home? Just an idea. Keep us posted about Cuddles!

[acovert]

Still no luck with the worms. Actually, he's not taking fish, either, at this point.

[chris-uk]

Don't stress too much, he can go for a while without eating. Our 6 month old albino checkered has gone 2 weeks without eating and didn't have a big appetite for a week or two before that. We're starting to get concerned, but not too worried yet. And we have a normal checkered that is a worse feeder than that.
You will almost certainly find that he will be off his food after you move back from college on Thursday, moving them around unsettles them and they take a bit of time to settle. It's pretty normal, so as long as he isn't loosing lots of weight just keep an eye on him and wait for him to start feeding again.

[acovert]

He tends to do really well with moving, actually. For Thanksgiving break we made a two hour trip to another town. The house we were staying in was colder than my dorm (which is cold) and I had to wrap his tank in blankets to try to keep it at a reasonable temperature. The day after we got into town he took a fish. He took one a day or two after we got back, as well.

Usually he eats more often than this, which is why I'm a little worried. I'm sure he'll be fine. He went at least two weeks without eating when I first got him. Refused everything for a while. And I'm fairly certain he wasn't getting any nutrition from those crickets they were trying to feed him. I think I'm more concerned because we will be moving soon. I want him to be as healthy as possible for the ten to twelve hour car ride.

[EasternGirl]

My snakes have gone months without eating. They often go off food for weeks at a time for no particular reason. Seeley is going through one of his off phases right now and hasn't eaten in a couple of weeks. I know Cuddles is young..but like I said, Hermes is now almost five months and he went almost two weeks when I first got him before he would eat anything because of the stress of being in a new environment. Has Cuddles shed since you have had him?

[acovert]

No, he hasn't shed yet. It looks as though he's a little longer than he was when I got him, so he's grown a little, but no shedding.

[EasternGirl]

Do you know what to watch for? Cloudy eyes...skin looking dull...he may shed soon and he may go off food when he gets ready to shed. He also may not want to be held as much...may want to hide more. You will want to make sure he has water to soak in and maybe mist his enclosure so that he can get his shed off nicely and in one piece.

[acovert]

Yep. I had a lizard that shed it's skin quite a bit some years back. And I've actually watched snakes shed their skin before. There was one shedding at the pet store just the other day. No cloudy eyes or dull skin yet. He's been hiding less the last few days, though.

[EasternGirl]

Ashley...nice to know your name. Okay, well the thing you want to aim for is for him to shed it all off in one big piece when he does shed. You want his humidity and temps to be right in his enclosure too. Did anyone talk to you about your enclosure? What kind you have...substrate, lighting...hides...temps, humidity levels and so forth? Not trying to bombard you with stuff...I just know that you said you wanted to know all the right stuff to care for him :).

[acovert]

Right now he's in a small container that I bought from Petco. It's ideal for traveling. I have a tank at home that I've used for reptiles before, but those reptiles (lizards) died from an unknown cause so I need to clean it thoroughly. It also needs a lid. But it will be big enough for him for a while. It was large enough to house three lizards when I last used it.

For bedding I am using Aspen right now. I'm going to look into switching when I get home as I don't like the look of it.

I have trouble controlling the humidity and temperature levels. Usually I can keep his tank at about 80 degrees during the day - considering the fact that it's regularly below 20 degrees here, I say that's accomplished. It would be warmer, but I have the coldest room in the apartment/dorm and my roommates won't let me turn the heat above the low 70s. Once they go to bed I usually turn it up to 76-78ish, which helps with the temp in my room at night. I have a heat/daylight lamp that helps a lot; it's on the side of the tank that doesn't have the water dish. When I'm in the room I keep the lid off because he can sun himself better that way. He doesn't try to escape, which surprises me.

I have trouble with humidity as well, but that's also because of where I live right now. When I get back to Portland I won't have any trouble keeping the humidity regulated. Right now it is difficult to get the humidity up to 50%. It usually sits at about 40% no matter what I do. He does have a large water dish, though.

I have a hide for him. It's a small artificial log that I bought at Petco. He loves it; sleeps in it or underneath it every night. Right now, though, I am actually using a paper/cardboard tube so that i can fit the small dish with the earthworms underneath it. He can also burrow into the aspen bedding (I'm careful to make sure he doesn't ingest any of that). I also design the other decorations so that they create smaller places where he can hide. I have a lot of climbing sticks and some cheap fake plants. I'll be getting different stuff once I have more options at home.

[chris-uk]

Sounds like you have all the bases covered there Ashley. :)

[acovert]

I hope so :)
When I first got him all I had was a travel-safe cage and the little bit of bedding that the lady who had him gave me. I had to make-do with whatever I could find for a water dish. I kept him close to my computer so he could stay warm. Eventually I was able to get hold of a paper towel tube for him to hide in. Things are much better now.

[chris-uk]

They love kitchen roll tubes (toilet roll tubes are too big for the small fellers), they will drink from whatever you put water in (the wife insists on reptile bowls, but small food tubs work just as well after a wash out), and there's plenty of other stuff you can put in the tank to keep them curious.
I've done the sitting them next to the laptop fan to keep one warm in a RUB when I was working and wanted to keep an eye on her. I should really run some ducting from the exhaust vents of my server and use the heat for snakes.

[acovert]

I actually just redesigned his cage since I had to take the old bedding out. Somehow it got damp - the desk was probably bumped and the water spilled - and I started to notice a smell. So I cleared out the old bedding and put in new. Now he has three hiding spots and a nice rock up near the lamp to sun himself on, since he loves to do that. I bought a reptile dish for the water because it was cheap at Petco and looked nicer than what I was using before. It also works better for feeding him fish.

[EasternGirl]

It does sound like you know what you are doing and have everything pretty much covered. You don't need your temps higher than they are for a garter...in fact, my temps run lower than that most of the time...but yours are fine. I would say that my day temps on the warm side of the tank range anywhere from 75-87...87 being the absolute warmest over the heat pad spot...usually it stays under 80 degrees though for an ambient temp( probably more like 75)....and stays around 71 on the cool side....and probably stays around 70 at night. For humidity 40-50% should be good...although there are members that will argue it should be higher for good sheds. I have been trying to get my humidity higher by using bowls of sphagnum moss in my tanks...but it hasn't been working. I just mist a lot when the snakes are going to shed and make sure they have water to soak in. I would make sure you clean out that tank that the lizards were in with a good bleach solution, I use a one part bleach, 3 parts water spray...spray out my tanks and then I make sure to spray them with regular water to get rid of all of the bleach...and then I air them out real well before I put the snakes in.

[acovert]

On the warm side it runs about 80ish degrees. On the cooler side it runs down to about 75ish most of the time. I worry more about nighttime, when the temperature in the tank goes below 65. I happen to have the coldest room in our dorm suite. Which is why I sneak out late and turn the heat up.

I plan on misting once he starts shedding. I don't do that otherwise, though, unless the humidity manages to drop past 40%. The lizards I had before needed a humidity of 70-80% so I'm used to misting.

As for the tank...it's been about five years since anything lived in it. It's been washed with bleach before, but it's been sitting in a rather disgusting garage for about a year and a half, and I need to get it out of there. I don't trust my grandmother to keep it clean. But it will be cleaned again and aired out. My mom knows how to do all of that, since we've had to clean stuff like this out before. She'll help me, I think, since I have problems with bleach.

[tress29]

On the warm side it runs about 80ish degrees. On the cooler side it runs down to about 75ish most of the time. I worry more about nighttime, when the temperature in the tank goes below 65.
I have my guys in a 20L with a UTH at one end. The temp over the heat pad is @88 but the ambient temps are anywhere from 67-70. I've provided a range, they can move around to suit themselves!

I think I'll worry more when my AC is set to 80 this summer. Will those ambient temps be too warm for them?

[EasternGirl]

Hmmm...I don't know Tress...probably not as they are used to living outside in the heat in the summer. As other members have pointed out, they are used to surviving some pretty harsh conditions outside. I would make sure they always have bowls of cool water to soak in. Maybe some other members can give you some ideas about that when the time comes.

Ashley...It sounds like you have everything covered. As far as night temps go...garters are used to dealing with it getting pretty cold outside at night. You're only there for a couple more days...as long as he has his lamp on during the day so that he can get his temp up...he should be okay during the night. Did you say you have a night lamp? No...okay...just looked back...he should be okay for a couple more days.

[acovert]

No, no night lamp at this point. It won't be an issue when I get home. Mom keeps the temperature at 70 in the house.

[EasternGirl]

Sounds like you'll be good then.

[acovert]

Trying the nightcrawlers again. I put them right outside the entrance to the hide. He showed some interest in fish today, so I'm hoping he's hungry enough to try worm.

[EasternGirl]

Good luck....keep us posted.

[acovert]

He's hungry. I know that now. He attempted to catch the fish. Almost had it, too. But I took it out before he did because I want him to take the earthworms.

[EasternGirl]

Oh...poor little guy! I hope he eats some worms.

[acovert]

I don't like the idea of giving him the fish if it's dangerous. I'd rather he take worms for a little while, until I can get more suitable fish.

[EasternGirl]

Yeah...I wouldn't give him the fish...I think the enzyme can build up in his system. I don't know much about it. One of the other members can tell you more.

[acovert]

Still no luck with the worms. He's not interested at all.

[guidofatherof5]

Have you tried any slugs?

[acovert]

I don't have access to slugs here.

[EasternGirl]

Well, Ashley...You only have two days. He'll be okay. As soon as you get home you're going to have to go and get some feeder guppies from a good pet store. But even then, I would highly recommend that you work with him to slowly try to get him switched over to pinkies, worms, and fish that you can buy at the fish counter like tilapia, salmon and trout...you just want to make sure that it is American or Alaskan. I think Wayne or Steve can give you a list of safe fish that you can feed. I don't know a lot about live feeder fish but I know that I can't trust any of the pet store fish around here because they don't take care of the fish properly...I don't know...I will let another member take over and give you advice on feeding. I know it seems like he will only take live fish now...but if you have to switch him to other kinds of food...it can be done. Maybe I'm wrong though...maybe you can keep him on feeder fish.

[EasternGirl]

Here are a couple of links: http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/husbandry/6654-safe-fish-list.html (http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/husbandry/6654-safe-fish-list.html)

http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/husbandry/8804-your-thoughts-feeder-fish.html

[acovert]

Still no luck on the worms. Working on prepping Cuddles and the goldfish for travel today. We head out early tomorrow morning after my last final. I can't wait to get Cuddles set up in an actual tank. Probably do that on Friday when I'm unpacking. Cuddles seems to like the car. In fact, he was most active during the last trip I took him on, and I was surprised. He'll be tucked into the passenger-side front seat where I can keep an eye on him.

When I get back home the first thing I will do Friday is go to the family-owned fish store near my house. It has a good reputation.

[chris-uk]

A tip for you - When I travel with snakes in the car I make sure the box they are in is labelled "Non-venomous snakes". Just in case I end up in a prang and unable to tell someone that my garters are harmless. Call me Mr. Paranoid but the last thing I'd want to hear after waking up in hospital is, "Oh, and the police killed that killer snake that was in your car".

[acovert]

I will keep that in mind. Thank you.

[EasternGirl]

That's a good idea Chris...in fact, I'm thinking about putting labels like that on the tanks in my house in case of a fire or something like that. Call me morbid but I even have a list of people to call in the event that something should ever happen to me...where my snakes should go...hey...you make sure your kids are taken care of in the event of the unthinkable...why not your snakes?

Good luck with traveling Ashley...let us know as soon as you get home so we know you got there safely!

[infernalis]

A tip for you - When I travel with snakes in the car I make sure the box they are in is labelled "Non-venomous snakes". Just in case I end up in a prang and unable to tell someone that my garters are harmless. Call me Mr. Paranoid but the last thing I'd want to hear after waking up in hospital is, "Oh, and the police killed that killer snake that was in your car".

We had an ambulance call at our home last summer, it was un freaking real, an elderly family member was lying on my kitchen floor, The paramedics came in the front door and spotted the 7 tanks of garters in my living room.

One of them yelled "SNAKES" and dropped the gurney and ran back out into the yard hyperventilating.

So yes, I would label them, just to be safe.

[EasternGirl]

Oh for the love of...I just don't know what to say to that. Was it Billy the Exterminator? Anyway...yeah...I am going to put some labels on their tanks. I have a sick father and you never know when we will need to have paramedics here.

[acovert]

Cuddles and I are home safe!
I'll buy a lid for the tank soon and then I can move him into the new enclosure.
I'll also find a fish that he will eat...since he still isn't taking the worms >_<
My room is so warm. I may actually have to find a way to cool part of the enclosure down. I think it will be better once he is in a more open tank, though.

[EasternGirl]

Hey Ashley! Good to hear that you both made it there safely! For now, just make sure he has some nice cool water in a dish big enough that he can soak in on the cool side. You may want to keep his heat lamp off if it is really warm in there. I do that sometimes if it gets too warm in my house from the heater. He will let you know if he is too warm...when Cee Cee gets too warm, she stays on her cool side of the tank and lies with her head on the side of her water dish. Then I know it's time to turn her heating pad off.

[acovert]

I don't even have a place to put the heating lamp just yet. I just finished unpacking. But he does have water. And he seems happy enough. I need to get him something more edible than the fish I still have, but I haven't had a spare moment to make it to any of the pet/fish stores in the area (there are three!). That's on the agenda tomorrow, along with picking up some new substrate and a lid for the tank. I'm getting the tank from my grandmother's house tonight.

[EasternGirl]

All sounds good Ashley...I bet he will be glad to get some fish!

[chris-uk]

He may apprehensive fish, but don't be surprised or disappointed if he needs some time to settle in after the move.

[acovert]

Well, right now he seems to be doing alright. No need to worry about whether or not he'll take the fish...I can't find any.
There are 3 pet stores on my street. PetCo sells comet goldfish and rosy minnows. A-Z Pets sells comet goldfish.

Cayes Pet's sells feeder whiteclouds. Are those safe? The person working the desk there had no idea. I already know the goldfish and the minnows aren't really safe for Cuddles.

[kibakiba]

Bridges normally tries to con me into buying clouds instead of guppies, telling me they're the same thing. I don't know, though. I wouldn't risk it until I knew they were safe... I can't ever buy guppies around here! Haha.

[acovert]

I thought that with two fish stores and a pet store nearby I would find them. Apparently not! I hope there are some in this city...there are 3 million people here. There have to be feeder guppies somewhere.

[EasternGirl]

I have no idea about feeder whiteclouds. I don't really know much about live fish because my snakes eat frozen salmon and trout fillet. I hope you can find some feeder guppies. If not you are going to have to try working with him to get him to eat something else. Try going to the grocery store (seafood counter) or a seafood store and getting fresh tilapia or Alaskan salmon...make sure it's fresh and from the U.S. Cut it up into little pieces and put it on a dish for him. Maybe he will eat it. You can freeze what is left and thaw it as you use it.

[acovert]

I'll try frozen fish again. Fred Meyer is pretty good and it's just down the street...hopefully it's not to expensive.

[EasternGirl]

Yeah...give it a try. He may be so hungry that he will eat it...and it is fish so maybe the smell will entice him. You can warm it a little...that may help...but I would keep it raw...and if you have tweezers or hemostats, wiggle it in front of him. Just watch your fingers!

[acovert]

He runs off the moment he sees the tweezers. Hopefully they will work when I try store-bought fish, though.

On a brighter note, my 1-year-old brother is absolutely fascinated with Cuddles. He comes in every morning and points at the tank because he wants to see the snake.

[EasternGirl]

That's really cute about your brother. My one snake, Seeley, does the same thing with hemostats...anytime I try to feed him with them he freaks out and hides...but Cee Cee will take food from them...of course, Cee Cee is a pig and would eat my fingers if I let her...lol. If Cuddles won't take the fish from the tweezers then just try putting it on a dish for him.

[acovert]

I'm going to the store sometime this week to pick up some trout, I believe. Is that a good type of fish to feed a snake? I've read that it is, but I want to be sure.

Also, I've been doing some research and as White Clouds are a minnow, they are probably not safe. Maybe safer than others, but really not that safe.

I have read that live-bearing fish (retain the eggs and then give birth to live fry) are thiaminase-free (this includes guppies) and I want to try one of those, if I can find them. There are several different types of live-bearing aquarium fish and if I can find some I may try to buy some and breed them, then feed my snake the second generation fish. I wouldn't need many, and then he can have some live food. Eventually I want to convert him to pinkies, but that will take time and my mom might not be okay with that at first. Thank god I have my own refrigerator!

[EasternGirl]

Buy steel-head trout...make sure it is from the U.S. That is what I feed my snakes when I feed trout. I just go to the seafood counter at the store and get a piece of fillet. As far as your questions about breeding live-bearing fish...try starting a new thread in the husbandry forum and you should get some answers about that. I don't know anything about it. Sorry!

[acovert]

I'm considering just running to Petco and buying a few fancy guppies. More expensive, yes, but they tend to be well-kept (since they're meant for breeders/pets) and will be less likely to carry diseases and parasites. Fancy guppies are the same as feeders, just prettier. It might be fun to breed them anyways. I can play with the colors. My brothers would love that too, and my mom wouldn't mind. I can also look for silversides while I am looking for Guppies, so I may try that over trout. Poeciliids shouldn't have thiaminase, or it should be extremely low. Mollies and guppies are both in that category. If I breed them myself then I can also feed the fish foods with Vitamin B1, which would help. And if I breed the fancy guppies then I can sell the prettiest ones back to the pet store.

I'm also going to check for frozen pinkies to try, if I think I can make them small enough. I have issues with cutting up dead animals, so I may put that off for now, especially until I can prepare my mother for that >_<

My options here are good. I will keep pressing the earthworms as well and try to vary his diet as much as possible. We'll figure something out!

[EasternGirl]

I know that frozen silversides can be used...I have seen people talk about that...it was in one of the links I posted for you. I think you just thaw them and feed them. You could post a thread just to make sure. As far as the pinkies go...my snakes love them now that they are used to them. You can get extra small ones and if you cut them up while they are frozen it isn't bad at all. I cut them up and then put them in a cup of warm water for about 10-15 minutes to thaw them. There really isn't any gross factor when you cut them frozen...although it does look a little gross after they are thawed. Cuddles should be able to handle eating half a small pinky...Hermes was only about 6 or 7 inches and 4 mos old when I got him and he could eat half a small pinky. I cut them into pieces anyway...but his breeder told me he was eating extra small ones whole. As gross as it sounds...cutting it and letting them smell the blood may help entice them to eat more since they are used to eating things alive in the wild. Sorry...but it's a animal thing...I know...it bugs me too...I could never feed a live mouse to a snake.

[acovert]

I would feel better feeding a live mouse to him than a dead, frozen one. I'll see what Petco has. If they don't have what I need then I will need to try a different pet store later on in the week. I won't be making it anywhere else for the next few days.

[EasternGirl]

Well the problem with garters is you have to be careful with live prey I think...especially when the garter is small because I think the mouse may actually be able to hurt the snake. I think it is okay to feed live pinkies...I don't have any experience with feeding live prey to my snakes...so if you plan on doing that...make sure you post a thread and ask exactly how to go about doing it so that you make sure you are doing everything correctly :). Maybe you will find those fish you want and then you won't have to worry about it anyway. Although, it is important to try to give them a well-rounded diet. If you decide to only feed fish...you will probably want to start giving supplements. There is a calcium/vitamin D supplement that many of us use and sprinkle on fish fillet...you can probably put some of it in his water. I'm sure one of the members on here can tell you how to do it.

[chris-uk]

I would feel better feeding a live mouse to him than a dead, frozen one. I'll see what Petco has. If they don't have what I need then I will need to try a different pet store later on in the week. I won't be making it anywhere else for the next few days.

A garter won't take down a live mouse (possibly a large female would manage it) and there's a good chance that the mouse will inflict some nasty injuries before it's subdued. Don't do it.
I don't know anywhere in the UK that sells live pinkies, the trouble is that they grow so quickly that they aren't small pinkies for long. If you're going to use rodents then stick with frozen/thawed pinkies.

[guidofatherof5]

Good advice Chris.

[tress29]

And it's easier to feed pinkies to my garters than my hognose. He needs his really hot, to stimulate his prey response. I just thaw to room temp for the little guys! And it isn't as gross cutting them up as I thought.

[acovert]

I had no intention of feeding him live mice. I would rather do that, but garter snakes are primarily worms, slugs, and amphibians, so if I do make it to mice they will be frozen.

On a brighter note, he took an earthworm today. Surprising, since he had a fish less than two days ago. Hopefully he'll take another before the day is gone, since he only took half of a small one.

[guidofatherof5]

Good to hear he's cooperating.

[EasternGirl]

I'm glad to hear he ate an earthworm! Funny thing is...even though easterns live primarily on earthworms in the wild around here...my easterns actually prefer pinkies and fish over worms at this point. At first it was difficult to get them to eat anything else...but I was worried about them living soley on worms so I slowly got them to try fish and pinkies...now it's difficult for me to get them to eat worms. I think salmon is actually their favorite food. My albino checkered has only had pinkies at this point, but I am trying to introduce him to salmon and trout.

I hope Cuddles eats some more for you...

[Light of Dae]

If you do decide to get pinkies I'll let you know what helped me a lot. I first cut up an earthworm real small pieces then take the frozen pinkie and chop it into bigger chunks when frozen (about the size of Cuddles's head) then add n mix in with the minced worm put on a small lid with a drop of water, and Whalaa you got an awesome easy clean non-messy non-gross way of feeding pinkies. That way the tiny amount of blood from the pinkie is mixed in with the worm guts n it thaws out with the worm and you don't even notice it. Works PERFECT. My little Radix wouldn't take a pinkie that had just been rubbed with a worm so I stared mincing the worm so that it would REALLY smell like worm. :D

My little girl just in fact finished her breakfast of half a pinkie an a full chopped worm :D
Sometimes (like this morning) I only mince the back end of the worm and either put the 'head' of the worm back in the dirt for another day, or chop it slightly bigger so that it gets eaten too. (Worm head will survive back in the dirt. I also believe there is more nutrition in the head then the rest of the worm)

[EasternGirl]

Now I can't get my Seeley to eat...it's been weeks and he hasn't eaten anything. I know he does this now and again but I'm starting to get a little concerned. He hasn't eaten since I separated him from Cee Cee...I swear he is boycotting...but I let them have supervised visits all the time...lol. I have tried pinky, worm and fish....even Wayne's garter goulash....I'm going to try again today...

[kibakiba]

He could be wanting to brumate. Or he's on a food strike til he gets to breed. Snakey does that, too. It's perfectly normal, he'll eat when he's hungry

[EasternGirl]

I think you're onto something with the breeding thing...since he stopped eating as soon as I took him away from Cee Cee. When I let them have visits....he goes straight to her and starts up his antics...he is a little horndog right now!

[guidofatherof5]

I wouldn't place all the blame on him.
She's probably sporting the pheromone that says ♪Come a little bit closer, you're my kind of man ♪

[EasternGirl]

Or...she is putting on that snake perfume again when I'm not looking!

[acovert]

Cuddles ate another worm today! And I found out that no one in my family besides my baby brothers like him >_<

I also picked up some pinkies and silversides from the pet store today, to see if I can get him to take either of those. I had to take my brother there anyways, so I figured I'd finally try to find the well-hidden freezer. The worm he had today was a bit on the larger side. He's still digesting. I may try a piece of mouse tomorrow, to see if he shows any interest. The worms digest fast.

In the meantime, he's decided that I'm not allowed to hold him. Instead, he is curling up next to my leg and watching me type.

[d_virginiana]

I think you're onto something with the breeding thing...since he stopped eating as soon as I took him away from Cee Cee. When I let them have visits....he goes straight to her and starts up his antics...he is a little horndog right now!

That's funny.. Houdini does the opposite. Maybe it's because he's in a different cage and can't actually get to her, but he's started eating much more since Harley's been in my room (it's the warmest room in the house, so she's in there sharing my frog's heat lamps until I'm convinced her mouth infection is cleared up). Whenever she's in the same room, he spends a good 90% of his time trying to get out of his cage and hunt down the female snake. :p

[EasternGirl]

Ashley...give your family time. My family hated snakes...was totally afraid of them. Then I rescued Seeley and told them I was keeping him. Then I convinced them to let me have Cee Cee. They called me a crazy person at first...now they ask me about my snakes and my mother even checks on them to see how they are doing. I just got another one. Slowly they are adjusting and I think my mother actually likes Cee Cee and Seeley. She would never admit it but.... Just give them time. I'm glad Cuddles ate another worm. It is not uncommon for them to not want to be held after eating btw.

[kibakiba]

You shouldn't hold after they eat, it can cause them to puke.

[acovert]

It wasn't right after he ate. And, he actually crawled into my hand, which is why I was holding him. I never try to catch him after he's eaten. I made a wild snake puke once when I was little...it was gross and now I know not to catch them when they've eaten.

The babies are fine with the snake. Which is pretty awesome, since the older one seems to hate anything that slithers or crawls. Grandma is terrified of them, but she doesn't live here. My stepfather and sister could care less. My mom doesn't like him past toleration at this point. He's not a constrictor, so she's willing to let him stay for now.

[EasternGirl]

Well...let's hope your mom gets over it or at least learns to live with it.

[chris-uk]

Non-venomous. Non-constrictor. And your young brothers get to grow up with really cool pets in the house. It's a winner all round with no downside. :)

[kibakiba]

Garters technically do have venom, just not a potent kind ;) At most you'll be itchy, unless you're sensitive to it or allergic to it.

[guidofatherof5]

http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/general-talk/5277-duvernoy-gland.html

[RedSidedSPR]

http://img221.imageshack.us/img221/3995/avatar92641gif.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/221/avatar92641gif.jpg/)

Watch that aspen.

[EasternGirl]

I've never had one of my snakes draw blood. Cee Cee nips me from time to time but she has never drawn blood...great...I'm allergic to everything! First time one of them draws blood I'll probably have an allergic reaction.

[RedSidedSPR]

I've never had one of my snakes draw blood. Cee Cee nips me from time to time but she has never drawn blood...great...I'm allergic to everything! First time one of them draws blood I'll probably have an allergic reaction.

Mine makes me itch like crazy with his venom... I swear, that little 6 inch (first pic) snake hurts more then this guy (second and third pic). love it.XD

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b283/chucknkelly/be491d49.jpg

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b283/chucknkelly/nerodiaattackPNG2.png

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b283/chucknkelly/nerodiaattack8bite.jpg

[EasternGirl]

Ouch! Cee Cee didn't even put a mark on me like that when she nipped my finger...just a little tiny red mark...she just nipped the tip of my finger because she thought it was food. I barely felt it....guess I am still technically a snake bite virgin...lol. One of these days one of my snakes will get me good...or a new snake, and you guys will get to hear me whine about it! Lol....

[RedSidedSPR]

Well that wasn't my snake, the bottom shots, that's a water snake i caught. Just saying that MY snake, the top one, who doesn't even break the skin, hurts more then the water snake, which is huge, bit me a million times, and draws a lot of blood. I find that funny.XD

[acovert]

I've never been bitten by a snake. As many wild ones as I caught when I was younger, that's a bit surprising. I would catch 3, maybe 4 at a time and keep them until mom would make me let them go. Not one ever bit me.

I do know someone who was bitten on the nose by a wild garter, though!

[EasternGirl]

Cee Cee was doing her false strikes at me today again...when she gets in a particularly skiddish or "tough girl" mood she likes to fake strike at me...she darts at me and looks like she is striking but she doesn't open her mouth...she just bumps me in the hand with her nose...it's kind of funny. I'm always like "Oh yeah...you are very scary Cee Cee!". Of course, one of these times she will probably surprise me and bite the bejezuz out of me!

[guidofatherof5]

Cee Cee was doing her false strikes at me today again...when she gets in a particularly skiddish or "tough girl" mood she likes to fake strike at me...she darts at me and looks like she is striking but she doesn't open her mouth...she just bumps me in the hand with her nose...it's kind of funny. I'm always like "Oh yeah...you are very scary Cee Cee!". Of course, one of these times she will probably surprise me and bite the bejezuz out of me!

Next time she does that drop to the floor and play dead.:D That will probably scare the crud right out of her.

[EasternGirl]

Really? Do you think she would actually notice and think that she caused me harm? I'm going to try it....she always tries her tough girl false strike stuff with me...She'll probably just slither right over my "dead" body and go for the big escape!

[kibakiba]

Snakie masterminds!

[EasternGirl]

Yep...she'd probably laugh to herself as she slithered away, thinking " And this was my plan all along...ha ha ha...".

[EasternGirl]

Ashley...any updates on Cuddles? How is he doing?