Milk snakes and garters.

[Bart]

How often do milk snakes eat garters? Do garters have any strategy to avoid being eaten? Do adult milks eat adult garters? Do they compete for food resources? I like such threads, so let's go. ;)

[Stefan-A]

Flight response to Lampropeltis scent.

[Bart]

Any source?

[Stefan-A]

Rossman et al.

edit: I seem to have the original article in my library.
Weldon, P.J. (1982). Responses to Ophiophagous Snakes by Snakes of the Genus Thamnophis. Copeia, 4, 788-794.

It's mentioned there as a personal observation.

[infernalis]

http://www.reptard.info/2011Herp/duo.jpg

http://www.reptard.info/2011Herp/face.jpg

http://www.reptard.info/2011Herp/stare.jpg

I have found several milks and garters hiding together, One night I flipped over a board, there was 2 milks and a garter snake, next morning one of the milks had recently fed, and the garter snake was gone, however I cannot confirm that the milk ate the garter, The bulge in the milk indicated a strong MAYBE, as it was a long slender bulge unlike that of a rodent (feeding) bulge.

[Stefan-A]

Other presumably defensive tactics exhibited by crotaline snakes to snake predators are escape (Bogert, 1941), biting (Cowles, 1938; Klauber, 1972; Meade, 1940), head-hiding in coils (Carpenter and Gillingham, 1975; Cowles, 1938), "freezing" (R. F. Inger, pers. comm.), and, in some young snakes, body flips (Carpenter and Gillingham, 1975). Marchisin (1980) provided a detailed inventory of the responses of seven crotaline species to ophiophagous snakes.
From that same article. I marked a few key words that might be relevant.

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

the times i do find wild thamnophis and lampropeltis under the same board or rock, they are not "cuddling" together... they are separate. This might indicate that the garter snake purposely avoids coming too close to the milk snake, or that they both slithered under the rock from separate entrances and did not even realize they are only inches apart!

[EasternGirl]

Very interesting thread...in what states can you find milk snakes?

[infernalis]

I think that big eastern girl in my pics "saving grace" was her sheer size compared to the milk.

[Bart]

What kind of milk is that? Honestly speaking, it looks like my anery corn... :rolleyes:

[EasternGirl]

I'm wondering where milk snakes are found because I don't believe I have ever seen any around here.

[infernalis]

Lampropeltis Triangulum Triangulum, Found anywhere east of the rocky mountains, from Mexico all the way up into Canada.

http://www.thamnophis.co/Milks/milk2.jpg

http://www.thamnophis.co/Milks/milk3.jpg

http://www.thamnophis.co/Milks/milk4.jpg

http://www.thamnophis.us/snakers/milksnake.jpg

[EasternGirl]

I definitely have to find some good places to go herping around here now that I know more about snakes...there are a lot of places that I can think of that I imagine would be good places to find snakes, I have just never had the desire to look for snakes before now. This spring I will have to venture out and look around at some of these places.

[infernalis]

I have two as captives, and I believe Shnnon keeps one as well.

[Bart]

At least you have some variety snakes in your area. ;) In my area there are only Natrix natrix and Vipera berus (never saw one).


Wayne - I never doubted they are Lampropeltis. They are just so similar to anery corns!

[EasternGirl]

Since I am new to herping...I have only seen eastern garters, which all looked pretty much the same in pattern and color, a couple of black snakes, and a hognose. In fact, I am not even sure which snakes are native to this area. Okay...wait...I have seen many water moccasins...in the swamp areas...I was not actually looking for those! You get away from those pretty quick. And I have seen a copperhead when I was little. I have heard that corns are native to Delaware, but I have never seen corns or milksnakes in the wild. I do not know of any other species of snake native to Delaware. I think I'm going to research that right now...

[EasternGirl]

Very interesting...in addition to the snakes that I named, we apparently also have: the northern scarlet snake, the eastern kingsnake, the eastern milksnake, the redbelly watersnake, the rough greensnake, the pine snake, the queen snake, the brown snake, the redbelly snake, the eastern ribbon snake, the smooth earth snake, and the timber rattlesnake (which, like the copperhead, is a pit viper and venomous) the water moccassin is also venomous. Also interesting, is that nowhere was the garter snake mentioned. There may be more snakes that were also not mentioned. Now I really must get out there herping! Of course, I need to get pictures of all of these snakes so that I can identify them.

[Bart]

Wow. Not bad. Those are snakes of Poland:


Coronella austriaca - very rare
Elaphe longissima - extremely rare (only in the mountains)
Natrix natrix - pretty common
Natrix tesselata - recorded ONCE in Poland
Vipera berus - uncommon

So - I envy you, Marnie. I have a chance to see only 2 species and MAYBE 3.

[EasternGirl]

Yeah...I had no idea we had so many different species here in Delaware! It is very exciting to discover. I hope I get the chance to see some of them at some point and maybe post some pics. I will have to do some research to find out where the different species tend to be found and start looking around when the weather is warm...I am getting a new camera for Christmas...maybe I can get some good pictures!

[snakehill]

We have a wide variety in New England too but I've never found anything other than Eastern garters.

[chris-uk]

Wow. Not bad. Those are snakes of Poland:


Coronella austriaca - very rare
Elaphe longissima - extremely rare (only in the mountains)
Natrix natrix - pretty common
Natrix tesselata - recorded ONCE in Poland
Vipera berus - uncommon

So - I envy you, Marnie. I have a chance to see only 2 species and MAYBE 3.

You have one more than we do in the UK, we don't get the Elaphe here, and I wouldn't really count the tessellata based on a single sighting. However, I have seen all 3 of our native snakes. The smooth snake I've only seen once, grass snake once, and the adders maybe 4 or 5 times. None of them are common enough to go herping here.

[EasternGirl]

Adders are venomous correct? Yes, so we have the smooth snake...I didn't write any of the scientific names...I think I will look up pics of the different species and post today...oh what fun! Am I a snake nerd or what??? :p.

[EasternGirl]

Here is a more accurate list of our snakes: (notice they included the garter on this list)



Eastern Worm Snake Carphophis amoenus amoenus
Northern Scarlet Snake Cemophora coccinea copei
Northern Black Racer Coluber constrictor constrictor
Southern Ringneck Snake Diadophis punctatus punctatus
Red Ratsnake (Corn Snake) Elaphe guttata guttata (Pantherophis gutattus)
Black Ratsnake Elaphe obsoleta obsoleta (Pantherophis allegheniensis)
Eastern Hognose Snake Heterodon platyrhinos (http://www.coastalplainsreptiles.com/Species/Snakes/Heterodon_platyrhinos.htm)
Eastern Kingsnake Lampropeltis getula getula (http://www.coastalplainsreptiles.com/Species/Snakes/Lampropeltis_getula_getula.htm)
Coastal Plains Milksnake Lampropeltis triangulum temporalis *
Northern Water Snake Nerodia sipedon sipedon
Keeled Green Snake Opheodrys aestivus
Northern Brown Snake Storeria dekayi dekayi
Northern Red-Bellied Snake Storeria occipitomaculata occipitomaculata
Eastern Ribbon Snake Thamnophis sauritus sauritus
Eastern Garter Snake Thamnophis sirtalis sirtalis (http://www.coastalplainsreptiles.com/Species/Snakes/Thamnophis_sirtalis_sirtalis.htm)
Smooth Earth Snake Virginia valeriae
Crotalids
Northern Copperhead Agkistrodon contortrix mokasen *
Canebrake Rattlenake Crotalus horridus atricaudatus *

[snakehill]

Yes Marnie! You are officially a Snake nerd!!! ;)

[chris-uk]

Adders are venomous correct?

Yes, they're a viper with weak venom. The last known death in the UK due to an adder bite was mid-70's (unless there's been one in the last few years that I didn't hear about).

[Stefan-A]

Yes, they're a viper with weak venom. The last known death in the UK due to an adder bite was mid-70's (unless there's been one in the last few years that I didn't hear about).
The venom itself is not that weak, but the yield is fairly low and the venom is not exactly tailor-made for humans.

As for how dangerous a bite is:



Scandinavian Journal of Surgery 92: 171–174, 2003

ADDER BITES.
A REPORT OF 68 CASES
J. Grönlund, A. Vuori, S. Nieminen

ABSTRACT
Background and Aims: The adder (Vipera Berus) is the only venomous snake that exists
naturally in Scandinavia. The aim of this study is to estimate the severity of adder bites,
to form a general picture of symptoms of bites and to find out how effective the present
treatment methods of adder bites are.

Material and Methods: 68 true adder bites treated in Turku University Hospital during
the years 1995–2000 were reviewed retrospectively.

Results: There were no deaths in this material. A bite caused severe symptoms to 10 %
of the patients. The symptoms were moderate in 21 %, mild in 34 % and minor in 35 %
of the cases. Children under 10 years were the proportionally biggest age group and
severe poisonings were most frequent among small children. Rapidly progressive oedema,
gastrointestinal symptoms, hypotension and early leucocytosis were signs of more
severe poisonings. Antivenom therapy with specific ovine Fab antivenom proved to be
an effective and safe treatment in severe poisonings.

Conclusions: An adder bite may also cause severe symptoms for adults. All patients
should be observed at least few hours after the bite and parental fluid therapy should
be started at an early stage. In the treatment of severe poisonings an antivenom therapy
should be considered. Rapidly progressive symptoms and early leucocytosis may serve
as a warning signal for higher probability of severe reactions.

[EasternGirl]

Interesting. I forgot one on the list that I did mention earlier...Agkistrodon piscivorus...the water moccasin, or cotton mouth. These are venomous, pit vipers, and they are all over in the swamp areas in Delaware. I lived in a town briefly where every day around dusk the tide would come in and water would fill the roads and you couldn't drive through town...you were basically stuck in or out of town until the tide went out...when the water filled the roads, it would be filled with water moccasins...You did not want to go anywhere near that water as they are pretty aggressive.

A little album I put together of the snakes in Delaware is attached.

First is the canebrake rattlesnake, the coastal plain milksnake, the eastern kingsnake, the eastern hognose, and you know the last.

[EasternGirl]

More pics:
3486Eastern worm snake. 3487 Black rat snake. 3488 Keeled green snake.

3489 Northern scarlet snake. 3490 Copperhead.

[EasternGirl]

3491 Northern black racer. 3492 Northern water snake. 3493 Northern brown.

3494 Red rat snake (corn snake). 3495 Northern red-bellied snake.

[EasternGirl]

3496 Smooth earth snake. 3497 Southern ringneck. 3498 Timber rattlesnake

(which is the same as the canebrake but this is a cool pic) 3499 worm snake. 3500 Water Moccasin.

[Bart]

As for Natrix natrix, I see them pretty frequently around here. A few years ago I even found a baby under a stone along with a slow-worm (legless lizard, even more common); today I would probably grab this baby and run like crazy to make a viv. ;) They are protected species, BTW., just as every amphibian or reptile in Poland. Though I would happily keep a male (females are too big for my taste) - they are very common and I can't imagine how taking one male would harm natural enviroment. Oh well, I have criminal thoughts. :(

Never saw a smooth snake nor adder though, but according to sources, they do occur in my area; smooth snakes eat lizards and, like I said, there's plenty of legless lizards and sand lizards around here. I wouldn't take one though, unless I find out there's a big population around (which I doubt), not to mention problems with food supply.

[EasternGirl]

Isn't it very cold for snakes there in Poland?

[Bart]

Nah, Poland isn't Siberia, you know. ;) I never saw a white bear around anyway. :D It's December and it's 15 degrees (C) at night. No snow either - hope it will change at christmas though. :)

The reason there's not much snakes around is because Poland is surrounded by mountains from south (Carpathians; Tatry) south-east (Beskidy) and south-west (Karkonosze). It's hard for animals to cross this natural border and thus adapt to little lower temperature I guess. But sporadically, you can find some species from southern Europe in here - the problem is they fail to establish a fair population because of small number of speciments that can't survive winter, can't find a partner or population is too sparse (which means they can't adapt quick enough).

[Bart]

http://www.reptard.info/2011Herp/face.jpg




I can't help myself - the garter is like: hurrrrrrr, me not edible. ;) I'm always suprised how many faces they have... Cute, evil, and so on.

Anyway - I'm wondering, Wayne - do corns occur in your area? I mean, my Nefri looks just like those milk snakes. Anery to be specific? Thanks in advance.

[EasternGirl]

I am hoping that we get snow here for Christmas too! We haven't had any snow in Delaware yet either.

[infernalis]

I can't help myself - the garter is like: hurrrrrrr, me not edible. ;) I'm always suprised how many faces they have... Cute, evil, and so on.

Anyway - I'm wondering, Wayne - do corns occur in your area? I mean, my Nefri looks just like those milk snakes. Anery to be specific? Thanks in advance.

No, Corns only exist in private collections around here. no naturally occurring wild specimens out there.

[Bart]

Hmm, it's a shame. :( I was thinking that if those milks look like anery corns - corns would also have smiliar colour, because it seems this one is preffered.

[EasternGirl]

We have corns around here...the pretty yelow/orange kind and a black kind. I have never seen any in the wild though. But Joe told me that his friend got his W/C's from Delaware I believe.

[Bart]

So my Izy keeps herself burrowed since my sinaloe milk snake has arrived. This can be caused by little lower temperature though. Anyone has both garter and milk/king snake and observed strange behaviour of one of them?

[kibakiba]

She could be scared, so she's hiding herself.

[infernalis]

So my Izy keeps herself burrowed since my sinaloe milk snake has arrived. This can be caused by little lower temperature though. Anyone has both garter and milk/king snake and observed strange behaviour of one of them?

I keep several garters in close proximity to (2) easter milk snakes and (2) Pueblan milk snakes, and no substantial differences in behaviour that I have noticed.