Could it be possible??

[EasternGirl]

For female snakes to have sexual behavior or for us to have been wrong about Selena being female? I just saw what looked like some snakey sex going on in the enclosure...tails entwined...Selena's tail throbbing and twitching...ummm..???

[BUSHSNAKE]

lol...whats going on over there?

[EasternGirl]

Sexy snakey lovins...apparently the girls like their home too much...I swear I just saw snake lovins...I'm trying to figure out if that is actually what I saw...if Selena might be a male..and if I need to get ready for snake babies...

[katach]

Sounds a little suspicious....

[BUSHSNAKE]

Sexy snakey lovins...apparently the girls like their home too much...I swear I just saw snake lovins...I'm trying to figure out if that is actually what I saw...if Selena might be a male..and if I need to get ready for snake babies...
check the females cloaca, if they "did it" there will be evidence

[BUSHSNAKE]

like this

[EasternGirl]

Okay here...34273428 these are the pics I had posted last year of Selena when I found her...is it possible that she is not a female?

[EasternGirl]

Eww...okay...going to check...she won't be happy about this...

[katach]

Looks female to me. There is a very distinct taper at the cloaca.

[EasternGirl]

It looked a little different but not like your pic...but she got really mad and then Selena immediately got back on top of her again...and here's the thing...they have been acting like they have been courting lately...inseparable...Selena is always on top of her or wound around her..if I separate them..they get really upset.

[EasternGirl]

So...then what are they doing?

[katach]

You could always try popping. There is a video that Shannon posted a while back showing how. I'll try and find it. I was able to sex all my babies that way.

[ConcinusMan]

I've seen male on male action occasionally, as a response to lipids after a shed, but never a female doing any courting. There can only be one explanation. Selena's a male if "she" is doing the chin rubbing and courting. To my knowledge, females never behave that way. I've seen female birds do the mounting, but never seen that in reptiles.

[EasternGirl]

I mean there is some serious courting going on...she is on top of Cee Cee all the time. They were twisted around each other and Selena's tail was twitching and throbbing. I'm going to have a bunch of snake babies aren't I? What is chin rubbing?

[ConcinusMan]

Selena's a boy. And courting doesn't always result in a mating so obviously they would have to lock up. That's up to the female. She has to open up for him. If that happens, then babies are on the way for sure.

This is chin rubbing. The male will firmly rub his chin on the female to stimulate her.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LfS4N-KVaHs

[EasternGirl]

Ummm..yeah...that looks exactly like what they are doing...wonderful...the last time Cee Cee had babies she had thirty stillborns...and I have no idea how to care for babies...there is no way two females would do that? They have been doing this for a while now and Cee Cee has been eating like a pig again like she did when she was gravid before...so she could already be gravid again right?

[katach]

Found the video. It's a corn snake, but the idea is the same.
Kathy love popping corn snakes - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BJ1g_kv_jko&feature=related)

[EasternGirl]

Thanks Kat...but after watching Richard's video I don't think I need to do it...what I saw on his video is exactly what they are doing...and if two females don't do that...then Selena is not a female. I guess if there are babies in a few months...

[ConcinusMan]

Sometimes they do this right after the female sheds, even if she isn't ready to mate. This activity doesn't necessarily mean they will mate or have babies. Just something to keep in mind. But one things for sure, a female doesn't court, chin rub, etc. Only males respond to the pheromones / lipids.

[kibakiba]

Mama has. Explain that... :p
Mama was courting with Runt, who is also a female... And, she's courted with Snakey... Chin rubbing, twitching and all.

[ConcinusMan]

Not doubting you. I suppose it's possible but in all my years I've never seen it happen.

[kibakiba]

Maybe she's confused. She did it with snakey a while afer giving birth... Runt was a random one, though.

[katach]

Thanks Kat...but after watching Richard's video I don't think I need to do it...what I saw on his video is exactly what they are doing...and if two females don't do that...then Selena is not a female. I guess if there are babies in a few months...
No problem. Still a good watch if you want to know without a doubt.

[ConcinusMan]

It's harder than it looks, to "pop" adult garters. Easy with babies though.

[EasternGirl]

So...is Selena a he or a she then? I guess I wait and see if there are babies in a few months...Cee Cee just shed which makes me think that given the response to phermones thing that Richard was saying...it would further suggest that she is a he....right? I don't know about the popping thing...makes me nervous...I'm afraid of hurting her/him...

[EasternGirl]

Oh I watched it Kat...thank you...I just get nervous at the idea of trying it...afraid I might hurt her...

[katach]

I was nervous too. Took me a few tries, but the snakes didn't seem to mind too much. They were a little irritated with me but a plate of worms changed their minds rather quickly. :)

[kimbosaur]

like this
http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/attachments/general-talk/3425d1322803493-could-possible-joes-pics-005.jpg

:eek: I don't understand why everybody feels so bad for the males. That looks pretty...unpleasant...to me.

[Bart]

Just do it, Marnie. ;) We are too curious right now to keep us waiting! :eek:

[kibakiba]

The male gets dragged around by his man parts, twisted around and around in deathrolls and the woman is trying desperately trying to drown them in the water dish. If the girl snakes don't like it, they shouldn't open their "legs"... Lol.

[EasternGirl]

I tried...couldn't do it and now I'm afraid I might have hurt him...but look at these...they are blurry because my mother doesn't know how to hold a camera...but do you see any tapering? I don't! 342934303431

[kibakiba]

Looks male, when he got sexed originally, he may have been too young.... At least with NWs it can be kind of hard to tell... Maybe it just took him a little longer to "develop"

[EasternGirl]

yeah...Chantel...lol...I've seen videos...I didn't see any of that...just the chin rubbing and throbbing and stuff...the courting stuff I think...maybe they haven't actually done "the deed" yet....

[kibakiba]

Watch for them smoking a cigarette, that's when you know they've done the deed! :D

[EasternGirl]

Oh good grief! Want an eastern baby? I hope I didn't hurt him trying to pop him...I was pushing on his little butt area...I tried not to push to hard...do you think I could have hurt him?

[EasternGirl]

Oh No! Biebs was wearing a smoking jacket and had a pipe in his mouth! Do you think this means something??? :D...

[kibakiba]

He should be fine ;)

The trick is to roll your thumb over the tail I believe, with firm pressure. Someone said that at least.

[Bart]

I also would say it's a male but hey, who would ask me? :P Especially I never had one. :)

[EasternGirl]

Yeah...I tried rolling with firm pressure several times...he just got upset and started playing dead...I was afraid I was hurting him so I stopped. I was afraid I was crushing something or causing internal damage. I always had doubts..always thought that I didn't see tapering...the thing is I should probably separate them but I don't have the heart to...they are so attached to each other.

[kibakiba]

Snakey stops eating sometimes when I don't let him and Mama together... But, it could be that he's going on strike until he gets to get it on with her. They'll be fine ;)

[guidofatherof5]

From what I can see I would say male.

[BUSHSNAKE]

Oh good grief! Want an eastern baby? I hope I didn't hurt him trying to pop him...I was pushing on his little butt area...I tried not to push to hard...do you think I could have hurt him?you dont wanna do that to a mature male, the picture was good enough...like Steve said that looks male

[EasternGirl]

Okay...well I hope I didn't hurt him...he seems okay now...they are resting...they had a very busy night...

[ConcinusMan]

you dont wanna do that to a mature male, the picture was good enough...like Steve said that looks male

I agree. I've seen people with plenty of popping experience that were not able to pop a mature male garter. Usually by the time they're that age you don't have to pop anyway since it's obvious just by looking at them. Not sure what happened there, but the latest pic says "male" to me too. Mystery solved.