Coloring Questions

[katach]

So, the more Maria grows, the more I wonder if she is a little.... different. She has no yellow or green coloring like Willow or Fish Bait. Her dorsal stripe is a very bright white color. Here is a couple pics of her.

T.ordinoides
http://desmond.imageshack.us/Himg577/scaled.php?server=577&filename=dsc02910l.jpg&res=medium
http://desmond.imageshack.us/Himg847/scaled.php?server=847&filename=dsc02915t.jpg&res=medium


One more thought on sort of a similar topic.

Blade is a red stripe. I know as a rule being a red stripe is not a morph, but Blade is soooooo red. I'm wondering if she may be a morph after all. I know there is a term for the red coloring, just can't think of it right now. Notice how it isn't just her stripe that is red, but it's everywhere, even her belly.

T.ordinoides
http://desmond.imageshack.us/Himg268/scaled.php?server=268&filename=dsc02301j.jpg&res=medium
http://desmond.imageshack.us/Himg214/scaled.php?server=214&filename=dsc02294d.jpg&res=medium

[EasternGirl]

Wow...she is red! What an amazing color! Maria looks a lot like Cee Cee...I don't want to wake her up right now to take a close-up...let me see if I have any good close-up pics....

[guidofatherof5]

Both are awesome but Blade is smokin'.

[EasternGirl]

Okay this is a terrible pic...but just to show you how Cee Cee has a stripe like Maria's down the middle:

3386 I don't know...Cee Cee looks a bit more checkered...but I think they look a little similar to me: 3387

[BUSHSNAKE]

nice easterns Marnie

[BUSHSNAKE]

KAT whats your question?

[katach]

Well. I'm wondering if Maria is like Steve's B/W radix, and if Blade is a red morph?

[BUSHSNAKE]

i think theres only one way to find out...........:)
i gotta get going w the ones i got from you and see how they develop

[katach]

Well.........

[BUSHSNAKE]

lol.....breed it

[katach]

I can't breed Maria. She has a really big scar on her abdomen and don't want to risk her health with breeding.
I'm trying to breed Blade, but I think I'm going to have to brumate her first.
http://desmond.imageshack.us/Himg843/scaled.php?server=843&filename=dsc02922u.jpg&res=medium

[BUSHSNAKE]

i think blade will have some pretty babies

[katach]

I think so too. What do you think, could she be a morph?

[BUSHSNAKE]

"morph?" you could call it a "red morph" for sure

[EasternGirl]

All I know is that Steve and I were just saying how awesome she is...her coloring is magnificent...

[katach]

Thanks! What about Maria do you think she is? I can't remember the name... the one that lacks yellow pigment?

[EasternGirl]

Are you talking about axanthic? Here is a link: Garter Snake Morph (http://gartersnakemorph.com/New-Acquisitions.php) Scroll down on the page and there is a pic of a female axanthic...It's one of Jeff B's pages...

[katach]

Yeah! that's the word!! Thanks!!

[kibakiba]

I have some babies that look like Maria. If they stay like that when they're adults, we could breed them to see.

[katach]

I just don't know about that past injury. I would love to breed her, but I think I'll have a vet check her out first, just to be safe.

[chris-uk]

Kat, back to your first post... The term for redness you couldn't remember is "erythristic".

[katach]

Yes thank you.

[EasternGirl]

She does kind of look like the snake in the pic on that link I posted...

[katach]

Yeah she does. I'm going to have to start saving for a vet visit. I have time though she is still young. I think she is only about a year and a half old so she has a little while before she can start breeding.

[EasternGirl]

I thought you weren't going to breed her because of the scar...

[katach]

I'll have her checked by the vet first. If he says she is safe to breed then I'll go ahead and find her a boyfriend. There is a reptile vet about 15min away from me. They are great!!

[EasternGirl]

That's awesome...there are a couple listed around here but I have never tried any of them. In fact, my vet says they will see reptiles but I've never asked about it.

[katach]

Well seeing reptiles and knowing what they are looking at are two very different things. Our vet is very knowledgeable about snakes and even garters. He even knew they have live birth. Not many outsiders know that. :)

[infernalis]

You have me wondering... How do I say this?? your hand has a reddish tint to it in the red stripe picture, the overall hue of the photographs looks "red enhanced" have you doctored those photos?

[katach]

No, only adjusted the brightness. My hands get really pink sometimes. I have circulation issues.

[EasternGirl]

Exactly Kat....exactly the reason I have never taken them to any of the vets that say they will see reptiles...I figured I would actually talk to some of the vets that I know where I take my other animals and find out how much they actually know about garters first.

[katach]

Not many vets do. I am lucky to have one that does so close.

[EasternGirl]

Yes you are!

[katach]

You have me wondering... How do I say this?? your hand has a reddish tint to it in the red stripe picture, the overall hue of the photographs looks "red enhanced" have you doctored those photos?

No worries on asking. I understand. It's hard to believe how red she is. Chantel can attest to how red she is though. I brought Blade with when we went to pick-up Snakey.

[infernalis]

Exactly Kat....exactly the reason I have never taken them to any of the vets that say they will see reptiles...I figured I would actually talk to some of the vets that I know where I take my other animals and find out how much they actually know about garters first.

Just don't discredit a vet right away, a few years ago my Puget was sick, The vet had never seen one, she even called in a few vet techs to see the pretty blue garter.

She set me up with antibiotics, Metacam (Animal pain killer) and Silvadine, the regimen worked, and the snakes cystic boils healed and he was once again healthy.

Just because a vet may not have Thamnophis experience, they know more about animals than anyone else.

[EasternGirl]

Good point Wayne....surely if one of my snakes were ill I would take her to a vet and see what the vet had to say...I do want to talk to the vets at the animal hospital where I take my pets though, just to see if they do have any experience with garters.

[guidofatherof5]

http://3243976692333794668-a-1802744773732722657-s-sites.googlegroups.com/site/reptiletradingcards/polymorphism-poster/northwestern-gartersnake-polymorphism-thamnophis-ordinoides.jpg?attachauth=ANoY7crvZWs6AUpmoQ_Qh8fA z2mPUVWuOTz9vgWRpHkZ6gRGcmtKsQKDcZIDtOb2OyAy0IHsBc YJ7ecCcKsI5JiiKA2FZnvQvGLrIMYPb5CGJiQ0h5Mzxi6tadVz 5g1jJO5vhETUdC0F9oQqt9SXCuAG_VsgqAnsIHDXcP6s4qIuIZ MDZOf2gTDePVeDZXCvcXume9ljwuHZggSf4YN84I9OeQ0yHwBX zbQRkCeGeqW1_txrRlPSiCdfEHLDWkWq8hiFmOkW0av0iJQ86E YymwFGFdgxyASCIsTZ2MH4Pllq6uW8dbkQgjs%3D&attredirects=0

http://www.thamnophis.co/poster.jpg

Nice poster.

[BUSHSNAKE]

that poster is sweet, do you know how to obtain one Streve?

[guidofatherof5]

Posters - Diamondback Trading Cards (http://www.diamondbacktradingcards.com/polymorphism-poster)

[infernalis]

Thanks so much Steve, I remember Richard showing that, But I couldn't find it.

Sadly the "purchase" link on the site is broken. I would love one of those in my snake room.

[guidofatherof5]

Same price as the other link.

» Polymorphism Poster Herp Nation Magazine – Reptiles Amphibians Herpetology Husbandry (http://www.herpnation.com/herp-nation-store/polymorphism-poster/?simple_nav_category=herp-nation-store)

[EasternGirl]

Thanks Steve...just bought myself a little Christmas present....awesome poster!

[guidofatherof5]

It's an awesome poster. I have it framed and hanging in the big snake room.

[infernalis]

Thank you for posting that link Steve.

[EasternGirl]

It's going on my bedroom wall.

[guidofatherof5]

It's going on my bedroom wall.

I bought a frame at Walmart for under $10.00

[EasternGirl]

I can't put nails in my walls because of the kind of plaster we have....but it will look nice on the wall even without a frame!

[infernalis]

I can't put nails in my walls because of the kind of plaster we have....but it will look nice on the wall even without a frame!

Easy, Don't use nails. ;)

http://proswhoknow.files.wordpress.com/2010/01/wall-anchors-1.jpg

[katach]

So morph or polymorph? And what are the the thoughts about Maria?

[infernalis]

So morph or polymorph? And what are the the thoughts about Maria?

Poly - As a prefix, often meaning more than one or many.

Polymorph = "Many Morphs"

[chris-uk]

So morph or polymorph? And what are the the thoughts about Maria?
I've not heard polymorph used to describe a snake, if it's a morph its a morph isn't it? Regardless as to how many mutations it has.
Speaking of polymorphs takes me back to the Emohawk... John may know where that comes from, the rest of you may need this link emohawk - Google Search (http://www.google.com/m?hl=en&gl=gb&&q=emohawk)

[kibakiba]

NWs are best known for their polymorphism. Two NWs don't equal one morph of offspring. They can all look completely different. That would be why Mama and Snakey had babies tat ranged from white to orange, to blue and green.

[PINJOHN]

Steve perhaps you could post a picture of the thamnophis picture poster project for the newer members if they think that the northwestern poster is good [which it is] then wait till they set eyes on that :eek::eek::eek::eek:

[EasternGirl]

There is a thamnophis picture poster??? What? Who? Where???

[Stefan-A]

There is a thamnophis picture poster??? What? Who? Where???
http://koti.mbnet.fi/thamnoph/photos/snakesies08/poster1.jpg

[EasternGirl]

Thanks Stefan...already got one comin!! So awesome!!

[ConcinusMan]

Well. I'm wondering if Maria is like Steve's B/W radix, and if Blade is a red morph?

There are only 3 types of northwesterns that I would consider a "morph". Blade is one of them. He's erythristic. Then there's melanistic ones (all black or dark charcoal grey, with very faint or no stripes/markings at all) and then of course, there's albino.

Albino and melanistic are mutated, recessive genes. Erythristics are not. That morph is a result of polygenic inheritance and is pretty common compared to melanistic or albino.

I guess you could also call stripeless ones a morph, but really, it's just polymorphism and they actually have stripes. It's just that once in a while a northwestern will have it's base color and stripe color exactly the same, so you don't see the stripe.

There's also laterally striped (has side stripes) and single stripe(dorsal stripe only) , but again that's just polymorphism.
Lab Manual Exercise #5 (http://waynesword.palomar.edu/lmexer5.htm)

To simplify, the only mutations known are albino and melanistic. Anything else is just polymorphism. Maria is perfectly normal.

You would probably like this Thamnophis ordinoides polymorphism poster: Posters - Diamondback Trading Cards (http://www.diamondbacktradingcards.com/polymorphism-poster)

[katach]

Thank you Richard.

[ConcinusMan]

Thanks Stefan...already got one comin!! So awesome!!

I bought mine from Drache (Rhea). You'll like it. Its high quality, and quite large.

[EasternGirl]

I got the other one too...the NW poster...can't wait to put them both up!

[katach]

I would love to get both of those posters. Two things are stopping me though. The money and I have no wall space to put them up. Maybe if we get a bigger place.

[ConcinusMan]

Thanks so much Steve, I remember Richard showing that, But I couldn't find it.

Sadly the "purchase" link on the site is broken. I would love one of those in my snake room.

Try going to the main page. There's a message there stating that they have changed the name and it will direct you to a new site. Maybe you can then purchase there if it's still available.


I'll have her checked by the vet first.

That may be impossible. Northwesterns are native wildlife. No vet in WA or Oregon can knowingly treat or examine native wildlife by law. I don't mind admitting I had to break another law to save Big Bertha's life. I had to obtain prescription antibiotics for her from out of state, without a prescription. I had no choice. It was that or let her die since no vet would diagnose or treat her. Technically, in WA its also illegal to keep them, (native garters) although when it comes to garter snakes, the law is rarely enforced. They would only take them from you if they got a complaint and you weren't taking good care of them and that's about the extent of it. I really don't think that the scar would cause any problems. I've seen snakes in much worse shape give birth just fine.

[katach]

Just the other day Steve checked with WA Fish and Wildlife and there are no restrictions or regulations on native garters. The guy said that they could be kept. I guess the law has changed. I was soooo happy!

[ConcinusMan]

I have an email that came directly from WA Dept of wildlife stating otherwise. Nothing changed. It's always been that way. Native wildlife is just that - wildlife and the law applies to all native animals. Its illegal to import, export, collect, or keep them under the umbrella restriction regarding keeping native wildlife. It doesn't apply to non-native garter species though, such as plains garters, checkered, etc. Enforcement is another matter altogether. There is none when it comes to garter snakes. They don't give a damn so don't worry about it. I delt with WA wildlife officers before. They overlooked the garters but took my rubber boas. At the time, the boas were on WA's "threatened" list.

[Jeff B]

I think there are a few things that need cleaned up or cleared up from this thread.
1. polymorphism-in the case of the ordinoides poster, polymorphism is refering to a characteristic of T. ordinoides, that species exibits many morphs occuring natually in the wild populations. Hense the term polymorphism describes what occurs in the species not the individual animal.
2. all of the snakes in that poster are a "morph" and that are all variant of the others, that is what polymorphism is refering to; the many different morphs that occur, displayed on the poster.
3. when you guys are asking is this a morph, the answer is yes. You could call that black and gray one axanthic (because it lacks red and yellow) and you could call the red one erythristic because it has increased red. HOWEVER, I think the question that you are really trying to ask is, " is this a simple single point gene that will be predictibly heritable, using the simple inheritance patterns of Medelian genetics to pass on the gene to the next generations?" or "is this a simple recessive or co-dominant, dominate trait?" or "will it make babies in the next generation or the generation after that which look identical?" The answer to that question is as Joe stated "breed it". See what, if any, inheritance patterns exist in subsequent generations. Keep records of numbers and ratios and then you can make a hypothesis, and see if it proves out over several generations.
4. T. ordinoides has historically produced extremely wide variability within and amoung litters, which creates some difficulties to isolate single genes and inheritance patterns to say the least, because so much variation occurs in wild populations.

[guidofatherof5]

Good explanation Jeff. Thanks

[katach]

Thank you Jeff. That is just the information I was hoping to get when starring this thread.

[ConcinusMan]

I always like it when Jeff steps in and explains it. He has a very good understanding of genetics and a knack for stating it in a way that allows us laymen to understand it better. I just suck at it. I guess what I was trying to say that if we define a "morph" as a single point mutation then no, the snake in question isn't a "morph". By Jeff's definition, (and the definition of "polymorphism") they are all "morphs".:cool:

And I have to say, that after years of breeding them, the answer is not just that there is polymorphism within a population, but that they can throw different morphs even in a single litter. Sometimes, just sometimes, the offspring in a litter turn out to be completely different than either parents and have more than one morph in the litter. Also, in my experience, you can definitely increase the occurence rate of a particular morph by selective breeding. This is demonstrated by observing different populations. Usually there is a high prevalence of one or two particular color/patterns in a population but you can go to a different population and find a different dominant color/pattern.

I think that no matter how much selective breeding / line breeding you do, there will still be variation, even though one particular morph will eventually occur most often.

This is why I was saying you would probably have better luck producing this particular morph, if you bred the snake to another of that particular morph, but make sure you get the two from the same population. That way, local natural selection has already done much of the work for you.