Is this what it looks like?

[infernalis]

I will not say where I got this, but it certainly looks like a hybridization in progress.

Obviously this picture originates in Europe, so IF/When those babies hit the marketplace..:eek:


http://www.thamfriends.com/1/CaliGarts.jpg

[kain]

Yep sure looks like it, I don't think its too much of a problem as long as the babies are correctly labeled and not sold as pure San Frans. San Frans have such a small gene pool that its very hard not to get pairs that are related

[chris-uk]

Two tetras and an infernalis?

[infernalis]

Look in the hide log...

There is a pair of each in there.

[chris-uk]

Considering I'll be in the market for some San Frans next year I'd be interested to know where the pics was taken. PM me if you don't want to post, because there's a good chance they won't be sold as hybrids.
I don't disagree with hybridisation per se because the problems from inbred tetra bloodlines are probably more significant than the dilution of the tetra genes by hybridisation. It's a polar debate though isn't it? Some are dead against anything but pure species, others would accept it. What I wouldn't accept is paying for pure San Frans and getting hybrids.

[Stefan-A]

the dilution of the tetra genes by hybridisation
It's not dilution, it's eradication of everything that made it a tetra. What's the point? The end result is basically... nothing. Neither tetrataenia nor whatever the hell else that is. Infernalis, parietalis, concinnus? Whatever. There's no justification or excuse for it.

[Stefan-A]

I will not say where I got this, but it certainly looks like a hybridization in progress.

Obviously this picture originates in Europe, so IF/When those babies hit the marketplace..:eek:

PM me who's doing that, so that I can avoid anything from that person's collection.

[chris-uk]

It's not dilution, it's eradication of everything that made it a tetra. What's the point? The end result is basically... nothing. Neither tetrataenia nor whatever the hell else that is. Infernalis, parietalis, concinnus? Whatever. There's no justification or excuse for it.

I agree it's no longer a tetrataenia, and if I had a breeding pair one of my aims would be to keep the subspecies healthy in captivity. However, if there is a market for snakes that look like a tetrataenia, but aren't pure, then there is a point - the point being that a breeder can increase yields of viable offspring and make more money from fewer tetras, and also produce snakes that look like tetras but perhaps have a lower risk of developing genetic problems.

It's not for me to produce hybrids. To me breeding morphs is close to the limit of what I would be willing to do personally (I like to see the natural beauty of the animals, not some a colouring that has been artificially selected for). But playing devils advocate, I can see the appeal of a "tetra-alike"snake that wasn't inbred back through 10 generations.

[mb90078]

It's not dilution, it's eradication of everything that made it a tetra. What's the point? The end result is basically... nothing. Neither tetrataenia nor whatever the hell else that is. Infernalis, parietalis, concinnus? Whatever. There's no justification or excuse for it.

A tetra isn't a tetra anymore though, that's the problem. The overly-restricted gene pool of purebreds in captivity makes the pure bloodline as undesirable as a hybrid to some people (so long as it's correctly advertised as one).

[Stefan-A]

A tetra isn't a tetra anymore though, that's the problem. The overly-restricted gene pool of purebreds in captivity makes the pure bloodline as undesirable as a hybrid to some people (so long as it's correctly advertised as one).
A tetra is a tetra regardless of how inbred or undesirable it is.

[Char361979]

I'm with Stefan on this one. Tetras should be tetras. End of.

[chris-uk]

I don't disagree that a tetra hybrid is no longer a tetrataenia. If I ever have tetras they will be pure (albeit inbred) snakes. If the purpose of breeding a hybrid is to preserve tetras then the breeder would be mistaken, as they have just lost a breeding cycle that could be used to breed pure tetras.
Let's not forget that cross-breeding can occur in the wild where two sub-species cross ranges. Are the hybrids desirable as an example of either parent? No. Could they be pretty snakes? Maybe. Will hybrid offspring be able to breed? Possibly not, as hybrid animals can be sterile.
Interesting debate.

[PINJOHN]

Chris is right when he says "this is a polar subject", so there is no way a purist can be talked round, but it doesn't mean we shouldn't have a debate on it , for myself there is nothing i would like to see more than some of the mainland Europeans take on the job of strengthening the tetra bloodline with out crosses, i say this for several reasons, first it should be understood that for me this is about the European population and not tetra in general, in an earlier thread i posed the idea of using a melanistic eastern to do this job, in my view this allowed the vigor to be put back without totally mixing the genes when young are born they would be one or the other, that is expressing tetra colors or melanistic and not some intermediate form, they would be in my opinion inter grades and not hybrids, ah yes the purists will say but you have messed with the genes they may look like tetra but they are not pure, well as we don't have superman's microscopic vision and we cant actually see genes we must judge with our eyes and its our eyes that make this snake so attractive to us, please understand that i as much as anyone dont wish to see the kind of mixed up genes that you now get in so many other types of snake we all wish to keep our garters true to type BUT the san fran is a unique situation, arguably the most striking of all the thampophis highly endangered in its home range, due as much as anything to the total disinterest of the powers that be, one natural catastrophe in its tiny home range and the snake is no more, and because of federal laws there wont be any more introductions into Europe, so folks just two ways to go let the European stock die out through increasingly more sickly snakes or take measures to strengthen them by whatever means,
i think what might also help would be to give these euro snakes a specific name so that we all know where we are at, that is to say on this side of the pond there is to all intents and purposes visually at least a san fran but the pure blooded snake remain in the USA UNAVALABLE to all

[d_virginiana]

Hm... Just my guess, but the offspring would probably still be able to breed. That wouldn't be a true 'hybrid' but an intergrade (I believe that's the right term?) kind of like a coyote and a wolf.
These things do happen in nature though. As long as the offspring aren't sold as pure-bred Tetras, I can't say I'm 100% opposed to the idea. My main reason for being against crossing garter subspecies is that often the babies are 'muddy' and not desirable as pets. This means that a lot of these undesired babies end up released into the wild to alter the natural gene pool, and not just in areas where intergrades between two subspecies might naturally occur. In a situation like that where the captive bloodlines are so inbred and there is no way the offspring would be able to form a stable population if released, then idk...

I don't know for sure since they aren't even available here, but the Tetra population in Europe seems like it might headed for a dead end either way the way people are describing the inbreeding problems.

[chris-uk]

You make good sense there John. If you take an absolute purist attitude, assuming no illegal wild caught San Frans reach Europe, we would eventually inbreed the EU San Fran stock to death. So is it better to have a European strain that looks like the most beautiful garter, but isn't pure, but doesn't have inbreeding issues. Or to end up with genetically pure tetras in Europe with low survival rates and increasing problems to get them to breed in the first place.

[mb90078]

A tetra is a tetra regardless of how inbred or undesirable it is.

I would also disagree with this. I would be shocked if all wild tetras don't have some blood lines from other nearby (sub)species. As I've said before, modern humans have Neanderthal DNA (As we all know, humans did not evolve FROM neanderthals, neanderthals briefly co-existed with modern humans, and then died out). I reject the very idea of "purebred" when it comes to animals who in the wild have or have had access to interbreed with other species or sub species.

[Stefan-A]

You make good sense there John. If you take an absolute purist attitude, assuming no illegal wild caught San Frans reach Europe, we would eventually inbreed the EU San Fran stock to death. So is it better to have a European strain that looks like the most beautiful garter, but isn't pure, but doesn't have inbreeding issues. Or to end up with genetically pure tetras in Europe with low survival rates and increasing problems to get them to breed in the first place.
You know, there's a fairly simple solution to that: Increase the number of breeding pairs and apply selective forces to the offspring. Ideally, all but one or two should be culled out of a given clutch. Inbreeding is not the end of the world, unless you'll breed just anything. Quite frankly, the tetrataenia should be taken off the market for the time being.

I don't give a rat's *** if a snake looks like a tetrataenia. Either it is one, or you might as well just keep a picture of one. Any other can species can replace it, if it doesn't matter whether it is a real one or not.

[Stefan-A]

I would also disagree with this. I would be shocked if all wild tetras don't have some blood lines from other nearby (sub)species. As I've said before, modern humans have Neanderthal DNA (As we all know, humans did not evolve FROM neanderthals, neanderthals briefly co-existed with modern humans, and then died out). I reject the very idea of "purebred" when it comes to animals who in the wild have or have had access to interbreed with other species or sub species.
Yeah, let's just cross all garter species while we're at it. It doesn't matter anyway, since they all occasionally do it in the wild.

[chris-uk]

Stefan the perspective you portray is pretty narrow and idealistic. You ignore that there is a real world situation where there is a demand for San Frans, where individuals are making money from the demand, and there is no organised effort to preserve a tetrataenia as a sub species. Is the market demand for a T. sirtarlis tetrataenia, or is the market for a beautiful snake? And are the buyers willing to subject their purchases to detailed tests and examination to determine what they have is pure? In the case of San Francisco garters I fear that economics is a more significant driving force that genetics.

Lora also makes good points about integrades. It happens in the wild, nothing stopping a sirtalis breeding with a tetrataenia and producing viable offspring that carry the tetras looks. For all we know one of the early EU breeding pairs could have been a genetic intergrade.
What makes a snake a tetra? "Either it is one or it isnt"? Surely, unless we get into DNA analysis the thing that defines a snake is the way it looks and what we can observe.
What you suggest about increasing the breeding pairs and culling most of the young will actually lead to deeper inbreeding. What selective criteria would you apply to the cull? Pick the ones that look most like the parents and appear healthy? They could be carrying recessive health problems that don't express for another couple of generations, by which point you have narrowed the gene pool. Inbreeding is a problem as it elimates genetic variation which is important to combat problems caused by random mutations and the expression of adverse recessive traits. Of course if you start with perfect samples with no genetic issues you simply enhance the positive traits, at least until a random mutation destroys an copy of an essential gene.

Part of this is devil's advocate, because despite my genetics degree being 15 years old and ending up in IT rather than research, I still consider myself to be a biologist, and I can want to keep snakes that are close to wild, natural examples. It's skewed a bit by the wife's albino, but on the whole morphs really don't appeal to me. I wouldn't consider a snake that is a genetic intergrade, but phenotypically a tetrataenia to be any worse than a snake that has been bred selectively to enhance a non-natural phenotype.

Now to talk ideals :
1. Compulsory register of all tetrataenia.
2. Mandatory breeding records for individual tetrataenia, tied to a microchip implanted at birth.
3. Licensing for breeders, who are forced to exchange young snakes with other breeders, with controls to ensure that the exchanges are with different breeders each year.
4. Outlaw one breeder selling offspring from a single pair as a breeding pair.
5. Require breeding documents to be supplied with each sale.
6. Restrict ownership of tetrataenia to licensed individuals, who must inform the register of intention to breed.
...... Maybe that would give tetrataenia (as the EU stock currently exists) a half decent chance of maintaining some degree of sustainability. But it's pipe dream, enforce these sort of requirements across multiple EU member states? Not going to happen.

[RedSidedSPR]

Kinda pisses me off when people cross breed...

[d_virginiana]

Yeah, let's just cross all garter species while we're at it. It doesn't matter anyway, since they all occasionally do it in the wild.

Well, I wouldn't say they all do it. I mean, a Puget and a Florida Blue Stripe would never have the chance to mate in the wild since they both have relatively isolated habitats. But, if you ask me the chance of picking up a Florida Blue Stripe without some Sirtalis in its lineage is kinda low. I imagine the same thing has happened to the wild Tetras in the US.

I don't know if it is an instinct to bring in new genetics or just chance, but it seems like when wild animals are put in a small, fragmented habitat with a small gene pool, you start to see a lot of intergrades popping up. I'd be really surprised if this hasn't happened to the wild US Tetras already. There aren't many, and they share a home range with other species they could easily breed with. Just as an example, NC is home to the last wild population of Red Wolves. There are less than 200, and they are isolated in a swamp wildlife reserve in Manteo. Only problem is, since there aren't many of them, the bloodlines are getting quickly diluted due to coyote crossbreeding. Same thing happens among quite a few amphibian species as well. I just wonder if crossbreeding among the Tetras is the natural next step for a compromised population..

[infernalis]

I have been talking off and on with a Californian who works construction and is involved in the preservation of the species... Meaning that ANY tetrataenia encountered on the job site MUST be relocated to a safer place.

He has indicated to me that the government population census is taken from public lands and completely overlooks the vast privately owned farms, vineyards, orchards and forests.

So with that, I would be inclined to believe there is less of a gene pool problem in the wild populations than most of us speculate.

The sad part about that photo, it was taken by a CASUAL collector who is not a breeder, he does not care about the genetics, all he saw that day was some pretty garter snakes making more pretty garter snakes.

[chris-uk]

The sad part about that photo, it was taken by a CASUAL collector who is not a breeder, he does not care about the genetics, all he saw that day was some pretty garter snakes making more pretty garter snakes.

And back to the original topic... That is one of the main issues with the photo. Casual collector buys one of the babies from this mating, couple of years down the line decides to sell it on to someone who is looking for a new breeding snake without realising or informing the breeder that it's an intergrade.
For all we know, in the European population this could have already happened and quite possibly more than once. If the offspring that are sold as tetras look like tetras it's extremely unlikely that anyone other than a breeder who introduces the intergrade would know they are circulating. Knowing that a tetrataenia/infernalis cross has happened once and assuming if it's happened before it was done quietly without photos, it kind of undermines confidence I would have in buying a tetra.

[PINJOHN]

i have tried to get this debate going before but it just didn't happen, this time however its a lot better, it needs to be said that this is not about absolute right or wrong, its about your opinion on whether its right or wrong,
during any debate/discussion/argument what tends to happen is the waters get muddied as discussion veers of topic, so its important to stress the one overriding principal that we all hold dear is that we dont wish to see garters go the way of corns and others with mixed gene pools, and yes i know i have already made this point but its worth repeating as we can then restrict our arguments to the tetra and the unique set of circumstances that pertain to that snake, and this snakes circumstances really are unique in fact you just could not make them up we start with a snake that is thought by many to be the most colorful and attractive serpent in the whole of the USA and beyond, that is followed by its endangered status followed closely by rules that on face value are supposed to protect it but in reality prevent the people who could achieve this from doing so.
the next [you couldn't make it up fact ] is that here in Europe we are perfectly free to own them/ LOOK....... there are many more facts to relate on this but the message i am trying to drive home is every single thing about this snake and its circumstances is UNIQUE, for me the rules we impose on ourselves for other garters just don't apply to the European population of these snakes,
there are lots of members who's opinions are read with interest and respect on this forum so i hope they will all take the time to share those opinions,

[infernalis]

It is of my firm opinion that this pairing is not a unique situation, and it is extremely likely that it has happened several or more times in many snake collections by many casual snake keepers who could care less if those tetras bred another tetra or any other garter snake for that matter.

[PINJOHN]

It is of my firm opinion that this pairing is not a unique situation, and it is extremely likely that it has happened several or more times in many snake collections by many casual snake keepers who could care less if those tetras bred another tetra or any other garter snake for that matter.
i would have no problem accepting what you say Wayne as it seems to be a likely scenario, but for one nagging doubt, if many casual keepers had indeed committed this deceitful act then would the Euro tetra be exhibiting such inbred tendencies,

[infernalis]

i would have no problem accepting what you say Wayne as it seems to be a likely scenario, but for one nagging doubt, if many casual keepers had indeed committed this deceitful act then would the Euro tetra be exhibiting such inbred tendencies,

Judging by my conversation with this bloke, Money was not of any interest here, he's very fluid financially.

That's where things get "tricky", if several casual keepers allow this to happen, then give away the offspring, or sell them cheaply in bulk... well you get the idea.

We are a unique lot here, most of the general public (who like snakes as "pets") could give a rats arse about genetics or purity of the bloodlines.

One reason why albino chequered garter snakes are so popular in the trade is they are cheap to buy.

As fanciers of all things Thamnophis, we all know that snake is another heavily inbred animal, but the people who frequent the pet shops only see a pretty snake that is small, cheap and easy to care for.

Then take it home and feed it goldfish.

[PINJOHN]

i take your point Wayne that this wasn't necessarily done with nefarious aims, but it still remains that the tetra being bought over here are allegedly having health problems which shouldn't be happening if their gene pool had been widened to any significant degree.

[infernalis]

i take your point Wayne that this wasn't necessarily done with nefarious aims, but it still remains that the tetra being bought over here are allegedly having health problems which shouldn't be happening if their gene pool had been widened to any significant degree.

I get you point mate..

I just wish that our government would ease up and allow private keepers to breed tetras in the US, it would certainly keep the species alive and well on the planet long after all suitable habitats are finally gone.

I also realize that as soon as that happened, poaching them from the wild would suddenly become a viable means of income and temptation in today's economy would be too great.

[PINJOHN]

poaching from the wild would only happen while tetra's fetch a high price, the answer might be for the government to [for a short period ] subsidize licensed breeders to produce large numbers for release on a given day to the hobby at reasonable prices ............do you know what Wayne reading what i'v just written doesn't even convince me ,so forget that idea i'm stumped:confused:

[infernalis]

poaching from the wild would only happen while tetra's fetch a high price, the answer might be for the government to [for a short period ] subsidize licensed breeders to produce large numbers for release on a given day to the hobby at reasonable prices ............do you know what Wayne reading what i'v just written doesn't even convince me ,so forget that idea i'm stumped:confused:

No worries..

High price or not, even at $50 a snake, the chance to make a couple hundred for just catching some garters is too tempting with our crumbling economy.

There is a person who is well known for scooping up puget (blue stripe) garters, gravid or otherwise and shipping them all over at $100 per snake, and he makes some serious money doing it.. so something "new" to the hobby with the desirability of a tetra would certainly have people out hunting for them.

[chris-uk]

Making me think about why I want a tetra... :(

1. Is it because I want a beautiful snake to look at and admire?
2. Is it because I want to feel like I'm helping to keep a species alive in captivity?

My thinking was originally option 2. But then I realised that if it was a dog ugly snake (negating option 1) then I probably wouldn't give a toss about option 2. My feeling is that tetras are a species worth preserving for as long as we can. But I'm increasingly feeling that the EU-bred tetra isn't going to satisfy option 2 unless I have complete confidence with where I source the snake from.

We've talked about inbreeding and health problems. I'm aware that I, for one, have made an assumption that if there's inbreeding in the tetra population there must be an impact on the health of the population - simply because that's the biological consequence of inbreeding.
I'm not aware that anyone contributing to this thread actually keeps/breeds tetras, so it would be useful to hear about first hand experience of low breeding yields, high mortality in young, mutations away from the tetra phenotype, etc. Is it really a problem, or one assumed because the EU stock all came from handful of snakes?

In the US controlled breeding with chipped specimens, and all offspring being chipped, and only sold to keepers who are licensed, may help.

[PINJOHN]

not sure as to the feasibility of chipping a small snake like a garter, not even sure about the possibility's for large snakes :confused:

[infernalis]

I'm not aware that anyone contributing to this thread actually keeps/breeds tetras, so it would be useful to hear about first hand experience of low breeding yields, high mortality in young, mutations away from the tetra phenotype, etc. Is it really a problem, or one assumed because the EU stock all came from handful of snakes?

In the US controlled breeding with chipped specimens, and all offspring being chipped, and only sold to keepers who are licensed, may help.


Stefan has contributed to this thread and he keeps them.

I may not be allowed to keep them, but I follow all of this with great interest and am in contact with several of Europes best known breeders, all of them are members here as well.

Just to give you an idea, both of these snakes came from the same litter born in Holland by Fons, a former moderator here (used with gracious permission)....

http://www.thamfriends.com/tetra/1.jpg

http://www.thamfriends.com/tetra/2.jpg

[chris-uk]

not sure as to the feasibility of chipping a small snake like a garter, not even sure about the possibility's for large snakes :confused:

Not talking about garters here, but I read that there are some protected species of snakes that can only be sold and cross borders legally when they have been chipped. These were snakes that have Cites protection, and more than likely weren't in private hands.


Stefan has contributed to this thread and he keeps them.

I may not be allowed to keep them, but I follow all of this with great interest and am in contact with several of Europes best known breeders, all of them are members here as well.


I wasn't aware that Stefan keeps tetras, not that it changes the way I read anything posted so far, but I was looking for input (like the two photos you posted) on the breeding issues. Of those two photos it's hard to say which is more disturbing.

I'm finding this whole thread useful, because if I do end up looking for tetras I want to be as well informed and knowledgable as possible when I buy them.

[MasSalvaje]

I would also disagree with this. I would be shocked if all wild tetras don't have some blood lines from other nearby (sub)species. As I've said before, modern humans have Neanderthal DNA (As we all know, humans did not evolve FROM neanderthals, neanderthals briefly co-existed with modern humans, and then died out). I reject the very idea of "purebred" when it comes to animals who in the wild have or have had access to interbreed with other species or sub species.


You know, there's a fairly simple solution to that: Increase the number of breeding pairs and apply selective forces to the offspring. Ideally, all but one or two should be culled out of a given clutch. Inbreeding is not the end of the world, unless you'll breed just anything. Quite frankly, the tetrataenia should be taken off the market for the time being.

I think Stefan brings up a critically important point that for the most part is being overlooked. Mb90078 (I apologize I don't know your name) you brought up the point that humans have neanderthal DNA which is true but did you also know that humans have one of the smallest gene pools in nature? All modern humans share about 98% of their DNA and all present humans can trace their Mitochondrial DNA back to a single female from Africa about 100,000 ybp. So whether you are a creationist, an evolutionist, or somewhere in between you have to conclude humans have been inbreeding with a much smaller gene pool for thousands of years; much longer than what we have seen with captive tetras.

My point in sharing this trivial information is to emphasize the importance of what Stefan stated. The problem in the tetra's gene pool did not come about as a result of inbreeding, the problem is a result of no natural selection. People for either financial reasons or even conservation reasons have been so adamant about building the population of tetras that they ignore the selection pressures that would naturally be keeping the population healthy.

To add "new blood" by hybridizing does not fix anything. You will still see the same problems and deformities that are present now because again there are no selection pressures on the captive population culling those traits out. So what you end up with by doing this is making hybrid tetras that are no better off than the pure line we (may) have.

-Thomas

[kibakiba]

Well, not to go too much off topic and bring up something that could rile people up... But, the bible says the earth started from 2 people. So wouldn't that technically make us all brothers and sisters, cousins, uncles, aunts, etc if that were true? That would be inbreeding at its "finest".

[RedSidedSPR]

Hehe.

[d_virginiana]

I think Stefan brings up a critically important point that for the most part is being overlooked. Mb90078 (I apologize I don't know your name) you brought up the point that humans have neanderthal DNA which is true but did you also know that humans have one of the smallest gene pools in nature? All modern humans share about 98% of their DNA and all present humans can trace their Mitochondrial DNA back to a single female from Africa about 100,000 ybp. So whether you are a creationist, an evolutionist, or somewhere in between you have to conclude humans have been inbreeding with a much smaller gene pool for thousands of years; much longer than what we have seen with captive tetras.

Actually, humans are pretty genetically diverse. We have a HUGE population base and thousands of morphological and genetic differences. 95% of that 98% we all share is also shared with chimpanzees. This is because most of the genome of any animal is made up of either large segments of 'junk' DNA (this can act as a sort of mutation safeguard; if DNA is damaged in a non-coding region like this, it won't affect the organism's viability) or conserved genes. Conserved genes are things that pertain to basic body formation (4 appendages, 2 eyes, organ systems, ect.) and protein production that is the same or similar in almost all vertebrates. Not trying to sound argumentative, but there really is no comparison between human genetic diversity and the issues facing the European Tetra stock right now.


My point in sharing this trivial information is to emphasize the importance of what Stefan stated. The problem in the tetra's gene pool did not come about as a result of inbreeding, the problem is a result of no natural selection. People for either financial reasons or even conservation reasons have been so adamant about building the population of tetras that they ignore the selection pressures that would naturally be keeping the population healthy.

To add "new blood" by hybridizing does not fix anything. You will still see the same problems and deformities that are present now because again there are no selection pressures on the captive population culling those traits out. So what you end up with by doing this is making hybrid tetras that are no better off than the pure line we (may) have.

-Thomas

Again, sorry for nit-picking, but that doesn't make a lot of sense. Yes, like Stefan said, there are certainly problems that have arisen from irresponsible people breeding unhealthy Tetras just because there is a market for them. Adding 'new blood' to the line, even just bringing in some unrelated snakes would go a long way toward solving these problems. Regardless of how responsible a breeder is in culling unfit offspring, if you start out with a compromised gene pool you will eventually end with results like the ones Wayne showed. The likelihood of ANY animal you come across being completely free of ANY genetic mutation is incredibly low. It's just that most of these mutations are rare or underexpressed and do not end up being passed on to future generations in a form that will lead to noticeable expression of these 'bad' genes. If you're working with a very small group for many generations, this becomes almost impossible to avoid.
That's why you don't see problems like that in other Thamnophis species like Sirtalis. There is such a large number present and on the market (or in someone's back yard) that it's simple for breeders to bring in new genes, often without even having to compromise the appearance and desirability of the offspring.

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

Well, not to go too much off topic and bring up something that could rile people up... But, the bible says the earth started from 2 people. So wouldn't that technically make us all brothers and sisters, cousins, uncles, aunts, etc if that were true? That would be inbreeding at its "finest".

And a talking snake convinced one of them, a rib-woman to eat a forbidden fruit out of a magical tree and that's why we get periods and snakes are "evil". It's probably a good idea to not bring that up here. :cool:

Anyways...... there is so much I could say here... but i don't feel like typing 6 paragraphs. so... to summarize...

- I don't like it when people want to make garter hybrids or intergrades. (btw, the offspring of this pairing would be intergrades) I like garters in their pure form.

- I will tell people I don't like it but I also respect their right to do what they want with their animals. I don't like it one bit and i'm not afraid to tell people that, and why I think they shouldn't do it.... but anyone who doesn't respect a keeper's freedom is being hypocritical. We as herpers get all up in arms when our government tries to pass laws to ban this and that and we don't want the government and the "not snake people" telling us what we can and can't have... what we can and can't do. The same should apply within our community, as long as the animals are not suffering, it's not really my right to say "you can't do that!". I can state my opinion but I should not try to force it down your throat.

- Many qualified people in the scientific community do not even consider subspecies to be valid. To some, those two snakes are the same snake in different color forms. Not that I agree with that... but, it is what it is.

- A personal observation of mine. Take the striped morph of plains garter snake, you know... the one that is lacking those checkers that break up the patterning on the snake. I used to own one myself. Compare it to a normal plains garter of similar coloration. Now. Take a tetrataenia..... and compare it to an infernalis of similar coloration. What do you see? You see the exact same differences and similarities, right down to the fact that the tails on both striped individuals is often barred after the vent! Why do not more people consider that tetrataenia is an offshoot population of infernalis that for some reason, favored the striped morph pattern mutation of infernalis and they just kept breeding and this trait became favorable and thus.... the san-fran became what it is today! This is not unknown to happen... it's a bit similar to how we see populations of sirtalis that lack any striping whatsoever, except the san-fran is apparently far enough along into it to have made it to subspecies.

- I completely agree with keeping tetrataenia illegal in the US. Keep them as illegal as possible... and make it a HUGE offense to be caught with one. it's the ONLY way people will somewhat leave them the hell alone in the wild. And I agree with whoever made the point of... if this was a butt ugly, drab looking snake... people would not make nearly as big of a deal about not being able to keep them. You hardly ever hear anyone saying how they wish they could contribute to conservation of T gigas by keeping them in captivity. You only hear that once for every 20 times you hear someone say it about tetrataenia... the truth is that keeping and breeding animals in a private collection does not contribute in any way to conservation of a species. They are ina private collection and will remain so. They are about as natural as the glass box they live in. Sure, maybe after they are all dead in the wild then you can cling to them a little longer but they will eventually die out in the hobby as well due to inbreeding. If we want to contribute to the conservation of species, then we support programs who actually do this by working to protect natural habitat and fend off destruction of it.

- IMO.... tetrataenia is doomed... because people suck on a lot of levels.... from doing things like mixing them with other snakes in europe, to the fact that the general population does not give a damned about any snakes, let alone a garter snake and is never going to change. The world is rotten to the core and it sucks but it's reality. Species die out all of the time because people don't care. I feel that at this point, the only thing people can do is slow down how long it takes for them to die out. When it comes down to it.... everything will die out some day, including humans.... as our earth's time is not infinite.

I still wrote 6 paragraphs anyways... go figure.

Stefan.... you WOULD be a foul bachelor frog.

I see what you did there.

[mb90078]

Great points aSLB. It's nice to see someone who can speak to both sides of an issue, even if they personally see it from one side. I really agree with your discussion of tetrataenia and infernalis. I would absolutely love to one day see their DNA mapped to see how closely they really are related. I would put a lot of money on them being almost genetically indistinguishable (wild ones this is, not the genetically deformed ones in captivity).


Also, those photos posted above really bring up an interesting question, is it really more moral (or even efficient) to create "that" than re-create a naturally occurring intergrade?

MasSalvaje, you can call me just "mb" or Mike if you like.

[chris-uk]

I really can't improve on the points that Lora has made (thanks Lora, I was looking to write a similar post but wanted to dive into some of my books first to check my facts), and Shannon makes some very good points as well.

I also agree with Mike about mapping the tetras and other sirtalis genomes, I'd probably go a step further and suggest that mapping the genome and engineering out defective genes would provide a more robust European tetra. That opens up the whole genetic modification debate. I don't have any moral or scientific issues with engineering to repair defective genes, but I will attempt to close off lengthy debate about it by saying that it will never happen because genome mapping and genetic manipulation is expensive and time-consuming, and nobody that would pay for it gives a rats sphincter about San Francisco garters.

I don't think there's much more I can contribute on this topic without circling back on ground we've covered.

[PINJOHN]

this has been a very enjoyable thread for me, when people take the time to get fully into a debate then you can't help but pick up info that you were previously unaware of, also once again one of thamnophis.com's characteristics has been demonstrated, a topic that divides opinion, YET no insults no blaspheming no sarcasm's, i love this site :).
i was hoping that the thread had not run it's course and that others might have a view on this, as expected it did veer off course away from the future of the euro san fran and whether its desirable to have a pseudo san fran and into the more broader problems of american stock, but i have to say i was just as responsible for this as anyone else, and any way it made the thread even better,
a thread of this importance deserves it's own limerick [apologies it's a compulsion i have :D ]

just what should we do with the San Fran
is a question much studied of late
should we mess with his genes
by nefarious means
or leave this poor snake to his fate

[chris-uk]

just what should we do with the San Fran
is a question much studied of late
should we mess with his genes
by nefarious means
or leave this poor snake to his fate

Excellent summary of the topic. :)

[kimbosaur]

the truth is that keeping and breeding animals in a private collection does not contribute in any way to conservation of a species. They are ina private collection and will remain so. They are about as natural as the glass box they live in. Sure, maybe after they are all dead in the wild then you can cling to them a little longer but they will eventually die out in the hobby as well due to inbreeding. If we want to contribute to the conservation of species, then we support programs who actually do this by working to protect natural habitat and fend off destruction of it.

I totally agree with this point. Keeping these snakes as a pet, or in a private collection does nothing for conservation of species because there are too many factors that come into play. If we think of the European line as a man-made "pet-only" type species (i.e. not found in the wild), would that justify the inter-breeding? As in, since they are not being kept for conservation anyways, what is the harm in taking it for what it is? If you think about it, there are so many man-made pets: our dogs, cats, and goldfish are all "made" through selective breeding.

At the same time, when I think about hybridizing animals for pets, the first thing that comes to my mind is the Blood Parrot Cichlid. They are a highly hybridized "species" from Taiwan, and the exact "formula" is kept a secret (although there are many guesses as to how it's done). Most of the time, they are infertile so they can't usually breed with each other. Everything about them freaks me out. They are so deformed and weird looking, it just goes totally against nature. To make matters even worse, they have a "jelly-bean" version that literally has a deformed spine so that it's more compact. I would say that these would be an extreme "hybrid," but at least around here, they are super, super popular pets.

Now, the interbred tetras won't be/aren't on the same level as a squished-bodied, big-eyed, bird-fish with mouths that don't close, per se, but wouldn't accepting the act in this special situation just open doors for more hybrid man-made garters?

*Shudders* (not my picture):
http://www.aquarium.deartz.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/red_parrot_Cichlid.jpg

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

Ugh!!!!! Being a fish hobbyist I can totally relate to this... Those damned blood parrots are an absolute abomination!!! Everything about them is just sad. Their mouths don't even close properly... And have you seen the "heart" shaped form? This form is even more deformed... It is completely missing it's tail. Oh and then there are the sickos who take these poor fish a step further and dye them every color of the rainbow!!! some even tattoo them.... I know at our store, I refuse to carry any fish that has been painted, dyed, or tattooed.... I control the fish inventory...

[PINJOHN]

fish that are painted, dyed, and tattooed ??? has the world gone completely insane ??......wait don't tell me....i think i know the answer to this one :mad:

[kimbosaur]

Yes! I totally forgot about those "heart-shaped" ones. I've seen them tattooed with flowers on their sides too.

Again, not my picture:
http://aquariumfishexporter.com/wp-content/uploads/Photos/ProductofTheMonth_13DF7/tattoo_parrot_i_love_u.jpg

But back to garter snakes, the point is, where is the line when it comes to human manipulation of natural species for the sake of a hobby? Because if you really think about it, that's what it's really about. How much is too much?

[MasSalvaje]

Actually, humans are pretty genetically diverse. We have a HUGE population base and thousands of morphological and genetic differences. 95% of that 98% we all share is also shared with chimpanzees. This is because most of the genome of any animal is made up of either large segments of 'junk' DNA (this can act as a sort of mutation safeguard; if DNA is damaged in a non-coding region like this, it won't affect the organism's viability) or conserved genes. Conserved genes are things that pertain to basic body formation (4 appendages, 2 eyes, organ systems, ect.) and protein production that is the same or similar in almost all vertebrates. Not trying to sound argumentative, but there really is no comparison between human genetic diversity and the issues facing the European Tetra stock right now.



Again, sorry for nit-picking, but that doesn't make a lot of sense. Yes, like Stefan said, there are certainly problems that have arisen from irresponsible people breeding unhealthy Tetras just because there is a market for them. Adding 'new blood' to the line, even just bringing in some unrelated snakes would go a long way toward solving these problems. Regardless of how responsible a breeder is in culling unfit offspring, if you start out with a compromised gene pool you will eventually end with results like the ones Wayne showed. The likelihood of ANY animal you come across being completely free of ANY genetic mutation is incredibly low. It's just that most of these mutations are rare or underexpressed and do not end up being passed on to future generations in a form that will lead to noticeable expression of these 'bad' genes. If you're working with a very small group for many generations, this becomes almost impossible to avoid.
That's why you don't see problems like that in other Thamnophis species like Sirtalis. There is such a large number present and on the market (or in someone's back yard) that it's simple for breeders to bring in new genes, often without even having to compromise the appearance and desirability of the offspring.

I don't think we are as far off as you seem to believe. First you did not understand what my reference to the human genome. We are actually virtually identical to chimpanzees, my use of 98% in my original post was referring to the small portion of sequences we don't share with other primates, but this is a garter forum not an anthropology forum so I will close that point by saying that your right when you say that you can't really compare humans to captive garters, however I believe you can make parallels to illustrate the processes that are going on; the very processes you describe in your final paragraph. I don't want to discount the importance of gene flow, but I don't think we are giving the natural selection process enough love. I don't want to speak for Stefan but what I got out of his posts was that there are multiple factors causing the dilemma the European tetras are facing, yet whenever it comes up the only solution that seems to be brought up is crossbreeding with infernalis when there may be a better, with less human control, solution that may work.

I don't know enough about the stock in Europe to say we should let nature take its course and all will be well, but if it is too far gone is the point to preserve a cool looking designer snake or is it to preserve the integrity (definitions of this differ greatly, I realize that) of a species?

-Thomas

[MasSalvaje]

just what should we do with the San Fran
is a question much studied of late
should we mess with his genes
by nefarious means
or leave this poor snake to his fate

Short and sweet and better than anything I could ever dream about coming up with. Well done!

-Thomas

[BUSHSNAKE]

What should we do with the San Fran? Respect that they are a critically endangered and protected species and accept that the situation in captivity isnt gonna change. With out the collection of wild specimens all species will have the same fate...critically endangered or not.

[RedSidedSPR]

Exactly! We got 70 other species, we'll be just fine without 'em in our possesion.:D

[Stefan-A]

Stefan the perspective you portray is pretty narrow and idealistic. You ignore that there is a real world situation where there is a demand for San Frans, where individuals are making money from the demand, and there is no organised effort to preserve a tetrataenia as a sub species. Is the market demand for a T. sirtarlis tetrataenia, or is the market for a beautiful snake? And are the buyers willing to subject their purchases to detailed tests and examination to determine what they have is pure? In the case of San Francisco garters I fear that economics is a more significant driving force that genetics.
It doesn't matter one bit what the demand is for, or what people will do in the name of economics. You know as well as I do, that the market doesn't decide what should or shouldn't be done.


Lora also makes good points about integrades. It happens in the wild, nothing stopping a sirtalis breeding with a tetrataenia and producing viable offspring that carry the tetras looks.
Except the fact that for example tetra x infernalis hybrids don't generally end up looking like tetras.


What you suggest about increasing the breeding pairs and culling most of the young will actually lead to deeper inbreeding.
Actually, it will address the problems associated with inbreeding, not inbreeding itself. Inbreeding is inescapable. If it leads to the extinction of the captive population, so be it.


What selective criteria would you apply to the cull?
Make a list of the problems tetrataenia suffers from due to inbreeding, and you have your criteria.


They could be carrying recessive health problems that don't express for another couple of generations, by which point you have narrowed the gene pool.
What gene pool? There's no widening a gene pool that can be traced back to one possibly related pair, except through increased numbers to increase variation and selection to weed out the ones that shouldn't reproduce. That's a process that occurs in nature, every time a species colonizes a new area and it always starts with massive inbreeding and the samples are never perfect.


Now to talk ideals :
1. Compulsory register of all tetrataenia.
2. Mandatory breeding records for individual tetrataenia, tied to a microchip implanted at birth.
3. Licensing for breeders, who are forced to exchange young snakes with other breeders, with controls to ensure that the exchanges are with different breeders each year.
4. Outlaw one breeder selling offspring from a single pair as a breeding pair.
5. Require breeding documents to be supplied with each sale.
6. Restrict ownership of tetrataenia to licensed individuals, who must inform the register of intention to breed.
...... Maybe that would give tetrataenia (as the EU stock currently exists) a half decent chance of maintaining some degree of sustainability. But it's pipe dream, enforce these sort of requirements across multiple EU member states? Not going to happen.
Talking ideals:
1. Eradication of the entire captive (in)bred population of tetrataenia in Europe.
2. CITES Appendix I-listing the subspecies.

[d_virginiana]

I don't think we are as far off as you seem to believe. First you did not understand what my reference to the human genome. We are actually virtually identical to chimpanzees, my use of 98% in my original post was referring to the small portion of sequences we don't share with other primates, but this is a garter forum not an anthropology forum so I will close that point by saying that your right when you say that you can't really compare humans to captive garters, however I believe you can make parallels to illustrate the processes that are going on; the very processes you describe in your final paragraph. I don't want to discount the importance of gene flow, but I don't think we are giving the natural selection process enough love. I don't want to speak for Stefan but what I got out of his posts was that there are multiple factors causing the dilemma the European tetras are facing, yet whenever it comes up the only solution that seems to be brought up is crossbreeding with infernalis when there may be a better, with less human control, solution that may work.

I don't know enough about the stock in Europe to say we should let nature take its course and all will be well, but if it is too far gone is the point to preserve a cool looking designer snake or is it to preserve the integrity (definitions of this differ greatly, I realize that) of a species?

-Thomas

Sorry if I misunderstood you. It seemed like you were saying that there was very little genetic variation in the human population, which there is. That's why the majority aren't born with two heads or other incredibly bizarre things. In the European Tetra stock, I would be willing to bet that most of those animals are nearly genetically identical, which is what causes the problems we've been seeing.

In the European stock, the ONLY method of modifying the genetics is through human control. Natural selection doesn't have anything to do with it. All I'm saying is that, even if all the visibly unhealthy offspring were culled or not allowed to breed, that wouldn't fix this problem. Even the healthy specimens are probably inbred to a certain degree, and if they continue to breed with each other more problems are only going to crop up. The only way to avoid this in a population that small is to bring in new blood (which won't happen due to US laws regarding the San Frans). Even with responsible breeders who know what they're doing, my guess is that it is only a matter of time before this stock stops producing any significant number of healthy offspring.

In my opinion, the European Tetras ARE designer snakes; a population completely different from the wild one here in the US. They aren't in a position to help preserve the integrity of the species as a whole, but the integrity of the species in the pet trade. Which is fine, I have no problem with that. I also have no problem with people who only want to preserve the appearance of these captive snakes. Mostly because I will never own one, and what people do with there pets is their own business so long as they're healthy and they don't release them into the wild to mess with natural gene pools. Kind of like what Shannon said, I just think there's a clear line between 'preserving the species' and 'preserving the species for the hobby', which is really what we're talking about doing here.

[infernalis]

Just to toss this out there, as it has already been said... ALL european stock trace back to one single pair of snakes.

F10?? F20?? who knows at this point.

[MasSalvaje]

Well said Lora.


Sorry if I misunderstood you.

I did not articulate it very well at all, nothing to be sorry about.


What gene pool? There's no widening a gene pool that can be traced back to one possibly related pair...

This will show how nieve I was to the situation. I have heard in the past but it did not register that all European stock came from a single pair. This just emphasizes the point that Lora made:


In my opinion, the European Tetras ARE designer snakes; a population completely different from the wild one here in the US. They aren't in a position to help preserve the integrity of the species as a whole, but the integrity of the species in the pet trade. Which is fine, I have no problem with that. I also have no problem with people who only want to preserve the appearance of these captive snakes. Mostly because I will never own one, and what people do with there pets is their own business so long as they're healthy and they don't release them into the wild to mess with natural gene pools. Kind of like what Shannon said, I just think there's a clear line between 'preserving the species' and 'preserving the species for the hobby', which is really what we're talking about doing here.

I also really liked Stefans list of ideals, let me just add #3. Restore all original habitat and eradicate the human population in that area. Following these 3 steps would not only solve the little discussion we have going on, it might also solve some of the budget issues the state of California is having.

-Thomas

[mb90078]

Just to toss this out there, as it has already been said... ALL european stock trace back to one single pair of snakes.

F10?? F20?? who knows at this point.

I've heard that before, but I thought there was some debate over whether that was absolutely accurate.

[infernalis]

let me just add #3. Restore all original habitat and eradicate the human population in that area. Following these 3 steps would not only solve the little discussion we have going on, it might also solve some of the budget issues the state of California is having.

-Thomas

I'd say eradication of human populations everywhere would solve a lot of the worlds problems.

[kibakiba]

Indeed. I opt for most of granite falls' residents eradicated first.

[infernalis]

No other species in the history of the planet has caused anywhere near the negative impact as the homo sapien.

[d_virginiana]

Holy crap. I knew the European Tetras were from a pretty limited stock, but I had no idea it was THAT limited!



I'd say eradication of human populations everywhere would solve a lot of the worlds problems.

Agreed. The population of my hometown is pretty limited, and no new stock has been brought in since the crossing from Europe. What's worse is that most of the capable offspring produced in that environment have found mates elsewhere and moved away! Can't imagine why :rolleyes:

[chris-uk]

It doesn't matter one bit what the demand is for, or what people will do in the name of economics. You know as well as I do, that the market doesn't decide what should or shouldn't be done.

I disagree somewhat, the market itself doesn't decide what should be done. It's people who don't share the same ethics as you, that own pairs of tetras and realise that there is a market for them and that they could be making money - it's the individuals that own San Frans that will decide which snakes they are willing to breed from.



Except the fact that for example tetra x infernalis hybrids don't generally end up looking like tetras.

I have not evidence to either agree or disagree with this statement.



Actually, it will address the problems associated with inbreeding, not inbreeding itself. Inbreeding is inescapable. If it leads to the extinction of the captive population, so be it.

It wouldn't actually address the problems associated with inbreeding, but it would extend the number of generations where inbreeding is viable, eventually inbreeding will kill off the captive population. Inbreeding is a problem, for all the reasons that Lora and myself have mentioned already. There may be two solutions to the inbreeding issues the EU population has, either new blood (illegal) or genetic engineering (expensive and therefore not viable). It may also be that the EU snakes are so inbred already that new blood wouldn't make a lot of difference.



Make a list of the problems tetrataenia suffers from due to inbreeding, and you have your criteria.


What gene pool? There's no widening a gene pool that can be traced back to one possibly related pair, except through increased numbers to increase variation and selection to weed out the ones that shouldn't reproduce. That's a process that occurs in nature, every time a species colonizes a new area and it always starts with massive inbreeding and the samples are never perfect.

There is still a gene pool for captive EU San Frans, the size of the gene pool is the issue because you are correct that you can't widen the gene pool without increasing variation. Selection is not going to widen the gene pool, as breeding from existing tetras does not increase variation, at best it increases the number of viable pairs available for breeding that don't have any visible problems. However, culling a snake that doesn't fit the visual criteria (I say visual because I don't imagine anyone would subject baby tetras to any genetic or biochem test) actually narrows the gene pool because that snake may have been carrying the last copy of a useful gene, as well as varying from the criteria.
This is the crux of the discussion, increasing the gene pool - there is no legal way to do it and maintain a pure tetra, so the alternative of using a related subspecies would be the only legal way to introduce new genes into the pool. As you successfully argued, this would then mean you no longer have a tetra, but an intergrade that looks like a tetra.



Talking ideals:
1. Eradication of the entire captive (in)bred population of tetrataenia in Europe.
2. CITES Appendix I-listing the subspecies.

My view as to what should be done with tetras has shifted slightly. I had a naive thought that the somehow the EU population was somehow providing a safety net against the extinction of wild tetras, unfortunately I think I'm wrong there. My lofty ideal of owning some tetras, which I would have sourced from different breeders to try to put together pairs that are more distantly related, wouldn't contribute one bit to preserving a species that is beautiful enough to warrant preserving.

So, my current thinking agrees with both of your ideals, neither of which I'm in a position to influence. And I'll got back to the first paragraph of this post - while there are still people in Europe who want to pay significant amounts for pretty looking snakes, there will be people in Europe that breed them (some with good knowledge and understanding of the issues, others that don't care about anything other than selling them and turning their pair of tetras into a profit, we won't get the latter type on this forum).

So I think I've almost put the final nail in the coffin of tetra ownership in the Chris/Char household, we'll be looking for other garter species to own, appreciate, and maybe study.

[PINJOHN]

No other species in the history of the planet has caused anywhere near the negative impact as the homo sapien.

HEY Wayne watch it my family are homo sapiens........ well some of them :o

[kain]

No other species in the history of the planet has caused anywhere near the negative impact as the homo sapien.

But then again no other animal has reached the same "level" as us and who's to say if some other species had beaten us in the evolution race, they could have easily done the same amount of damage as we have.

I'm not saying we should continue frivolously destroying our planet etc etc, but I don't like it when people portray the whole human race as some evil cancer that needs to be purged.

[infernalis]

But then again no other animal has reached the same "level" as us and who's to say if some other species had beaten us in the evolution race, they could have easily done the same amount of damage as we have.

I'm not saying we should continue frivolously destroying our planet etc etc, but I don't like it when people portray the whole human race as some evil cancer that needs to be purged.



Generalized statement ;)

I just got done reading the popular science article about what we have done to our oceans, You should see the satellite views of the dead zones and floating trash.

[kain]

Generalized statement ;)

I just got done reading the popular science article about what we have done to our oceans, You should see the satellite views of the dead zones and floating trash.

I know lol, but I just wanted to use my dolphin exaple which i forgot to put in.

But lets say we weren't the "most evolved" creatures on the planet, lets say dolphins beat us, whose to say we wouldn't all be slave creatures in our dolphin overlords fish farms, in a world where its 100% water and they keep us a pets and food source on floating barges.

[Stefan-A]

I have not evidence to either agree or disagree with this statement.
Here's what you can expect:

http://koti.mbnet.fi/thamnoph/photos/snakes2011/hybrid/inf-tetra-hybrid-1zdarsj.jpg
http://koti.mbnet.fi/thamnoph/photos/snakes2011/hybrid/inf-tetra-hybrid-rcrkp2.jpg

I'm using these pictures without having asked for the owner's permission.



And to jog everyone's memory, this is what a tetrataenia looks like:

http://koti.mbnet.fi/thamnoph/photos/snakes2011/tetrataenia-04-01.jpg

[guidofatherof5]

Watered down for sure.

[Stefan-A]

There are infernalis that are less yellow, but it'd still not look like a tetrataenia.

[mb90078]

There are infernalis that are less yellow, but it'd still not look like a tetrataenia.

Right, so breed the hybrid offspring back to a tetrataenia, and selectively breed the ones with the most favorable coloring. I'm not suggesting that merely cross breeding will solve all the problems in the first generation, or even that the results will be perfect...

Out of curiosity, have you seen multiple examples like the one above? I'm a bit curious if that is really what can be expected or if that is just one incident.

[Stefan-A]

Right, so breed the hybrid offspring back to a tetrataenia, and selectively breed the ones with the most favorable coloring. I'm not suggesting that merely cross breeding will solve all the problems in the first generation, or even that the results will be perfect...

Out of curiosity, have you seen multiple examples like the one above? I'm a bit curious if that is really what can be expected or if that is just one incident.
I have seen a few, but not many examples of tetra x infernalis hybrids. None of them have looked "right".

If we're going to start selective breeding for tetrataenia looks, why not start from pure infernalis? It's not like there's really a need to involve tetrataenia at all.

[infernalis]

I have seen a few, but not many examples of tetra x infernalis hybrids. None of them have looked "right".

If we're going to start selective breeding for tetrataenia looks, why not start from pure infernalis? It's not like there's really a need to involve tetrataenia at all.

Precicely, Infernalis is one handsome garter snake as is, crossing the two degrades both.

I claim no rights to this photo, so I left the links intact. Have a look at the gallery there, some great California herping photos, including wild tetras.

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1298/4659469678_64ea85152e.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/vabbley/4659469678/)
Mating, Thamnophis sirtalis infernalis; California Red-sided Garter Snake (http://www.flickr.com/photos/vabbley/4659469678/) by vabbley (http://www.flickr.com/people/vabbley/), on Flickr

[Char361979]

I think I'd rather have one of those guys than a tetra based purely on looks. Glorious animals.

[RedSidedSPR]

Ya know, if i had the choice of a tetra or an infernalis i think I'd choose the infernalis. I just personally prefer their look.

[Stefan-A]

Ya know, if i had the choice of a tetra or an infernalis i think I'd choose the infernalis. I just personally prefer their look.
So would I, but that's just because I've found that the tetra I have, is the dumbest animal I've met so far.

[Char361979]

So would I, but that's just because I've found that the tetra I have, is the dumbest animal I've met so far.
Come meet my cousin's dog... bet it's dumber!! LOL.

[Stefan-A]

Come meet my cousin's dog... bet it's dumber!! LOL.
Does it frequently defecate in its favourite resting spot and does it lie on top of its own piles for days on end?

[infernalis]

Does it frequently defecate in its favourite resting spot and does it lie on top of its own piles for days on end?

That's just a shame.

[Stefan-A]

That's just a shame.
I sometimes have a feeling that it's not quite right in the head. You have to constantly make sure it's not lying in its own **** or doing something else that all my other snakes will avoid naturally. Yesterday I found it lying coiled up in its own **** in the humid hide, with the skin half shed.

Does anyone here watch Family Guy? Anyone remember the horse Peter brought home?

edited much later:
uL37RDS2Qiw

[kibakiba]

Hah. Mama does that a lot... She coils up with her tail en over her head and poops on her self a lot... It's kind of funny, but unfortunate.

[Char361979]

Ooooo that's not good. Sad really.

[infernalis]

I sometimes have a feeling that it's not quite right in the head. You have to constantly make sure it's not lying in its own **** or doing something else that all my other snakes will avoid naturally. Yesterday I found it lying coiled up in its own **** in the humid hide, with the skin half shed.

Does anyone here watch Family Guy? Anyone remember the horse Peter brought home?

I watch it, and yes I remember the horse well.

http://www.reptard.info/duhhhh.gif

[ConcinusMan]

I just love Family Guy. Took them long enough to come up with a show that is EXACTLY my kind of sick humor.:D The day that they changed Ren & Stimpy to a more "family friendly" version was a sad day for me. Family guy almost makes up for it.

Yeah, I think that the inbreeding depression effects does reduce them to mindless drones. Literally mentally 'tarded

[Char361979]

The day that they changed Ren & Stimpy to a more "family friendly" version was a sad day for me.

I loved Ren and Stimpy when I was a kid (my mother hated it of course) oh powdered toast guy, what happened to you? One of my friends has two ginger tom cats named after them.

[ConcinusMan]

I had two betas named after them.

[infernalis]

Yeah, I think that the inbreeding depression effects does reduce them to mindless drones. Literally mentally 'tarded

I was not going to say this, but oh well... I see it in some of the F5+ morphs out there.

Continual sibling breeding to produce litters of snows / Albinos had made for some doofy critters.

[ConcinusMan]

Yup. I've seen it in snow radixes. Total goofballs.