Possible spinal problem

[chris-uk]

I've not found a lot about spinal problems (I read that Steve had one with a kink spine, Bethan isn't nearly as bad as Steve's photo), but I expect a few people will have some experience.

Our smallest checkered seems to have a problem with her spine. About 2/3's of the way down her length there's a lump on her spine and her back seems to bend slightly there. Then another 1.5cm down there is another lump. The lumps are small but clearly visible and feel hard.
As she moves she doesn't move as fluidly as our others, most of her movement is driven from her upper body. The lower part has movement, but she doesn't have strength there to support herself. When she slithers her tail twists over then as she moves forward it comes back the right way up. She definitely moves slower and more awkwardly than her sisters.
Kind of worried about her as she hasn't eaten for 3 weeks now, and wasn't a good eater in the first place. She's also the one that had bad problems shedding.

I'm thinking there's some sort of spinal abnormality that has become more visible as she's grown. If she's not eating because she's got a bad back it doesn't bode well. I'm willing to try a live fish with Bethan, she's lovely to handle and I don't want to give up on her.

[guidofatherof5]

She needs some special care and I'm glad she's with you and Char.
Not sure what the cause would be but a genetic issue would be my first guess.
The not eating could be part of the overall problem and needs to be watched.
Once in awhile these special needs snakes come into my care. I love caring for them.
Please keep us posted on your little bent-ones progress.
Any photos?

[zooplan]

I want to name two further possible causes for those spine damages:
First is an accident. When baby snakes are kept in spider enclosures falling front glas plate could hurt escaping snakes.
Second is bad feeding without supplements, especially calcium.
A guy who bought snakes of mine fed them with chicken hart only for month.
His snakes seemed like boneless and where not able to control the rear part of their bodies.
After supplementing their diet with lots of calcium most of the symptoms disaperaed again but lumps at their spines remained.

[guidofatherof5]

Good info. Udo. Thanks for posting it.

[chris-uk]

I'm confident that we can rule out accident, the viv this on is in doesn't have anything that could damage her.
Calcium could be a factor, she's only eaten salmon and has refused to eat anything since we started coating it with calcium power. We have calcium supplement in her water though, so as long as she is actually drinking (she doesn't appear dehydrated) she is getting some calcium from the water.

Steve - I have some video of her moving it's not great as the light wasn't good, I'll try to catch you on Skype later.

[chris-uk]

Update on Bethan. She's not improved at all, she actually has 4 visible bumps on her spine now. I wouldn't say she moves fine by any means, it's more difficult for her to move and her balance slithering through my fingers isn't good (I wouldn't hold her over a hard surface because she falls off my fingers frequently). She can move quickly when she wants to though, so when she's motivated she's fine.
She has probably the nicest face of all our checkereds, so although I'm not expecting her to have a long life we are enjoying having her with us.

[kibakiba]

Could you take her to a vet so you could at least know what may be wrong with her? If I were in your place, I'd want to know what's up. But, that's just me. I would if vets even treated garters here, at least.

[PINJOHN]

Update on Bethan. She's not improved at all, she actually has 4 visible bumps on her spine now. I wouldn't say she moves fine by any means, it's more difficult for her to move and her balance slithering through my fingers isn't good (I wouldn't hold her over a hard surface because she falls off my fingers frequently). She can move quickly when she wants to though, so when she's motivated she's fine.
She has probably the nicest face of all our checkereds, so although I'm not expecting her to have a long life we are enjoying having her with us.
Sorry to hear there has been no improvement, i really hope she continues to have sufficient quality of life to be the focus of your love and attention.
I have been wrecking my head to find a way to tell you that should you wish one of bethans siblings then you just let me know, but i didn't want to make it sound as if i thought bethan was a throw away commodity, after long deliberation i realized that you know me well enough by now to know that's not how i view her. ......so i have given up trying to find flowery phrases and i trust that you will know just what i mean

[EasternGirl]

This is very interesting and very difficult for me Chris as I do not want to sound as though I am implying that she will not make it...but the condition that you are describing sounds exactly like what was going on with the garter Sammy that I found that passed...so sorry. He also had bumps like you are describing and could not move just as you are describing. I kept wondering if he had been injured, perhaps falling out of my basement ceiling...as the snakes crawl under my house to get warm and then fall into my basement. I have been wondering and wondering what it was that happened to him. Now I see that your snake has something very similar going on and it is very curious to me...but I am very sad to hear it. I really hope that you can figure out what it is. Sammy seemed to be doing very well at first, but then I just did not know what to do for him. I guess just being there for him and giving him the best short little life he could have was all I could do...I know you will do the same for her if you can not figure out what it is and if it is not something that can be fixed. You will just love and comfort her...

[chris-uk]

Thanks John. I know what you're saying and we appreciate the offer, let's see how we get on with Bethan (she was one of the two "extras" that Char picked out.

Marnie - interesting to hear that my description of her condition rings bells with someone else, but sorry to know that you experienced the same situation. Perhaps there is some sort of disease that attacks the spine, like snake arthritis... How long did Sammy live for?

Chantel - our vet has said he's happy to treat our snakes, but he's a general small animal vet, so would be good with respiratory infections etc where you treat with antibiotics, but not so useful for specific snake diseases. I'd fear that a vet would immediately assume it's not treatable and the animal is in pain, and having read how tricky it can be to put a small snake down I don't want to cross that bridge.

I'll keep looking out for Bethan and trying to find more info about her condition, I'll look for signs that she is deterioting and if she seems to be suffering unreasonably I can make a call in the future. I'm pretty sure I know how things will go with Bethan although I hope she will stabilise and not get worse.

[guidofatherof5]

This was a great snake and I miss him. My Krinkleback.

http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/general-talk/4206-rheumatoid-arthritis-young-one.html

[chris-uk]

Thanks for the link Steve, I know you feel each and every one of your snakes. Sounds like Krinkleback had as good a life as he could with arthritis. Reading your thread gives me some encouragement that Bethan may live longer than I initially thought she would.

[EasternGirl]

Chris...Sammy did not live long after I found him...only two days. But he was also very cold when I found him as he had been in my freezing cold basement in November. Being that he was wild, it is impossible to know how long he was alive before I found him, how he came to be like he was (whether he was injured or sick) and what exactly caused his death. I really hope that Bethan can stabilize and live a long and happy life....my prayers are with you for that.

Steve...I remember seeing the link for krinkleback...cute little guy he was...had the best home :).

[kibakiba]

I guess the best thing you can do is just shower the little one with love and treats. A happy snake is the best kind of snake. :)

[ConcinusMan]

she is getting some calcium from the water.


I might add that calcium alone does nothing. It must be ingested along with phosphorus and D3 in proper proportions or it will not be absorbed. It's even possible to oversupplement certain nutrients, causing calcium absorption to be blocked. That's right. Supplementing can actually cause deficiencies, if not done properly. It's important when supplementing calcium, to use a supplement specifically formulated for reptiles. Even better to skip the supplement altogether and feed them foods rich in calcium, such as whole rodents. It's just not good to get reliant on supplements. Ideally, their diet should be complete enough so that they don't need supplements at all.

[EasternGirl]

How is she doing these days Chris?

[d_virginiana]

That's so strange.. Hopefully she'll start to improve and you can have her with you for awhile longer. Working with special-needs animals can be really rewarding. With all the extra time you have to put in, you end up learning so much more about them than you otherwise would.

[chris-uk]

The calcium supplement is a liquid one designed for reptiles so has D3 to enable absorption. I use it every other water change. I can't skip the water supplement - she isn't getting a lot of nutrition from food because she doesn't eat well, and won't touch pinky pieces. In the last month she's eaten 2 small pieces of salmon, at the end of Oct it looked like she was going to start eating well when she ate a small amount in 3 consecutive feeds but that has gone by the wayside for the last month. So yes Richard, in an ideal world I'd drop the supplements but she needs to be eating pinkies before I do that (the other snakes get powder supplements every 4 feeds, bit they all eat normally and eat pinkies).

We don't see her out of her hides much unless I wake her up to check on her (and I look in on her viv every hour or so to see if she is out). Yesterday she was out of her own accord, it looked like she was having a drink when I came in. I take that as positive, so we'll see if she will eat today.

[chris-uk]

I think my earlier post may have been a little optimistic. I've tried shifting her feed time to earlier in the day and when I moved her to the feedbox I noticed that she has folds of skin that make me think she's dehydrated and therefore not drinking. Her skin feels incredibly dry, she doesn't feel anything like her sisters.

I've dropped a few photos on Picasa as I haven't seen any pics of snakes where anyone has said "Yep, that's what dehydrated folds of skin look like". The forum won't embed images from Picasa (maybe something to do with Picasa insisting on an HTTPS link), but I've uploaded the same images to the forum:
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https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/cosjm0hlidgAObvwjHtgFM09XtP8c_dxF6arpDgKV7c?feat=d irectlink
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https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/0PdLBasw0F8glbXptaV7Ac09XtP8c_dxF6arpDgKV7c?feat=d irectlink (https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/0PdLBasw0F8glbXptaV7Ac09XtP8c_dxF6arpDgKV7c?feat=d irectlink)
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https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/sqRdpLCgXpPMyPmIM4u8HM09XtP8c_dxF6arpDgKV7c?feat=d irectlink

(https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/sqRdpLCgXpPMyPmIM4u8HM09XtP8c_dxF6arpDgKV7c?feat=d irectlink)Can someone with experience of dehydrated snakes tell me if this is what the "folds of skin" look like when you talk about dehydration causing folds of skin?

[guidofatherof5]

Looks like it a retained shed. Get her in a shed box ASAP.
You may need to manually shed her after the shed box.
Hold her under warm running water and get the shed started anywhere.
The running water will help you by getting under the retained shed.
Keep us posted on this situation.

[chris-uk]

Damn. She retained her first shed and I had to assist her with that one, her last shed was successful on her own on 23 Oct, so she'd be due a shed by now and hasn't shown any signs of one coming.
I've got her in a shed box at the moment Steve. I'll update again later.

Curiously, when I had her in the feedbox this morning she did eat 2 small pieces of salmon. She went off her food completely when she was shedding last time.

[guidofatherof5]

Glad she ate and I hope this shed comes off without too much difficulty.

[chris-uk]

Well, she's been in and out of her shed box all afternoon. And showing no sign of the skin coming away. Thanks for the advice through the afternoon Steve, I know we'll get her through this. She's tired and stressed though so back in her viv now, if I'm lucky she will use one of her rocks to get her shed started herself.

[katach]

Good luck!

[EasternGirl]

I'm so sorry that she is going through all of this Chris...positive thoughts coming your way.

[chris-uk]

She still hasn't done anything to help herself with her retained shed. We've both had a stressful couple of hours, as she had dried overnight I had another look and decided that if she has a retained shed it's one that's stuck like a layer of varnish. While she was still dry I took the desperate step of using a scalpel to get the shed started, trying to cut a single layer of skin without cutting into a moving snake is a challenge.
After half an hour in a shed box I was able to peel some shed away fat the point I cut. I know when I was Skyping Steve yesterday I had my doubts as to whether this was a retained shed, but it looks like you were spot on Steve. Unfortunately, the shed is coming off in very small pieces, so far I've cleared about 5cm above the vent, and the loose ends of shed has disappeared. It doesn't help that most of the time the edges of the shed are only visible from the right angle when she is under water.
I've put her back in her viv for a rest now. I know a retained shed will kill her if I don't get it off, how long do I have to remove it completely? It something that will kill her over weeks or months rather than days?

[guidofatherof5]

Could be days.
It might be good to find a faucet that will allow you to shed her under running warm water.
The running water will catch that edge of shed and actually do some of the work for you.
Best of luck. I've been where you are at and don't envy the job ahead of you.
Stay with it as she needs your diligence.

[EasternGirl]

Oh...this is just so hard Chris...I'm sorry that she is having such a hard time. I really hope you get the shed off.

[chris-uk]

After both of us having a break this afternoon I've got back on the job at hand this evening. I'm hoping that the stress of the experience isn't too detrimental to her.
Contrary to common wisdom, I actually find it easier to get the shed open when she's dry. When the retained layer is dry I can get the scalpel blades between the layers and open it up a few mm. How far I open is a judgement call as I'm trying to leave as large a loose flap as possible. I've managed to get a split running along half her spine now, and this morning I managed to clear the section running 4cm north of the vent. She's back in the shed box where I'm hoping the humidity will soften under the edges so that the snakes comes away larger pieces now that I have a longer split in her shed.

Taking a scalpel to a baby snake is amongst the most stressful things I've had to do for a long time, she keeps still for spells then wriggles for a while making this a painstakingly slow process. I'm hoping to be done in the next few hours.

[PINJOHN]

After both of us having a break this afternoon I've got back on the job at hand this evening. I'm hoping that the stress of the experience isn't too detrimental to her.
Contrary to common wisdom, I actually find it easier to get the shed open when she's dry. When the retained layer is dry I can get the scalpel blades between the layers and open it up a few mm. How far I open is a judgement call as I'm trying to leave as large a loose flap as possible. I've managed to get a split running along half her spine now, and this morning I managed to clear the section running 4cm north of the vent. She's back in the shed box where I'm hoping the humidity will soften under the edges so that the snakes comes away larger pieces now that I have a longer split in her shed.

Taking a scalpel to a baby snake is amongst the most stressful things I've had to do for a long time, she keeps still for spells then wriggles for a while making this a painstakingly slow process. I'm hoping to be done in the next few hours.

well done Chris you are a braver man than me

[chris-uk]

I think I've broken enough of the shed that she's not in danger - I've cleared most of her spine, getting around to her belly isn't so easy, but at least I have her lungs and heart area freed up.
I'm keeping her viv warm and humid, and hoping that she now realises what she needs to do to help herself. When she went back in she went into her water then had a slither over one of her rocks, so it looked like she was trying to free up the return of the shed.

[BUSHSNAKE]

id get that remaining skin off yourself, and if you just leave it and it just flakes off, not all of it might not come off and you wont know it, if you do it manually youll know what came off. it all has to come off

[ConcinusMan]

Yeah, remove manually asap. The longer it stays on, the more likely it is that it won't come off no matter what you do. If warm water doesn't help, try a little light mineral oil.

[EasternGirl]

That you are doing this for her...is just so amazing...that you would take the time to do that and care so much for her...you are truly a very caring person, Chris.

[chris-uk]

I think I got most of the remaining shed off over the weekend. I'm sure there may be small patches still attached, but I can't see any so they should be small and inconsequential. She's also been slithering around the rough rock in her viv, so it may be that she is actually helping herself instead of relying on me.

[EasternGirl]

That is great news, Chris! I hope she continues to do well.

[chris-uk]

The proof of the pudding will be in her next shed. I'm going to be checking her every day for blue eyes, because I obviously missed the signs of shedding last time and didn't realise until the shed was retained and stuck with superglue.

[EasternGirl]

Right...but thankfully you got her through this!

[guidofatherof5]

Nice work Chris.
Thanks for being patient with her.

[chris-uk]

She's just eaten some pinky guts and trout as well. She's had spells of eating and not eating since she's been with us, so I will wait a few feeds before deciding that her eating is better. At least I can believe that she's not trying to starve herself.

[EasternGirl]

Yes...it is good that she ate.

[chris-uk]

She still eats just enough. She isn't very mobile, and tends to stay in one place when she gets comfy. So imagine our surprise when I spotted her here:
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As Bethan was in Lightning's viv temporarily, and Lightning is about to move out to the friends we've been growing her for, Bethan has moved in with the other checkereds and Blacknecks. We were worried that she wouldn't settle quickly, but considering where she got to here her back problem may not be as bad as I thought. I'm more worried about how she will get down.

[EasternGirl]

She must be doing well then! Well...you can just keep an eye on her and if she looks like she is having trouble getting down you can just give her a hand.

[chris-uk]

We went out for a few hours and she was back down in a hide when we got home. She either climbed down or jumped.

[ConcinusMan]

Gravity can be a great help in these situations.:rolleyes:

[chris-uk]

Thought I'd quickly update on Bethan. She's eaten from tongs this evening, it's the first absolute confirmed food she's eaten for a long time. She pooed in the water just before she ate, so that shows that she has been eating when we haven't been watching. She took a pinky leg from the tongs, then another pinky leg, then a tiny piece of salmon, then went to the bowl and took a piece of trout that was as big as her head. That was the last shed ate, it took her a good couple of minutes to get it down.
We know she's been drinking because she comes out and drinks almost every evening. It's just good that we have a confirmed meal inside her. She's never going to be a great looking snake with her bumpy spine and shedding problems, but she's not giving up. We occassionally catch her up the plants, but generally she's in a warm hide.

[aquamentus_11]

as far as Ca2+ goes, what's the best way to get it into problem eaters? can the powder be mixed in water or is there a liquid form that might work better?

[EasternGirl]

I use a liquid form...because my snakes won't eat the food with the powder on it. Now, mind you, the liquid form does not have D3 in it. Greg told me how to use it so that you don't overdose...it conditions the drinking water too...but since I am not using as much as you are supposed to, I mix it with bottled water instead of tap water. I put 20 drops in a 2 liter bottle of water. Then I just use that to fill up the water dishes in the tanks. Amazon.com: Hagen Exo Terra Calcimine, 3.3-Ounce: Pet Supplies (http://www.amazon.com/Hagen-Exo-Terra-Calcimine-3-3-Ounce/dp/B0002AR2B8)

[chris-uk]

as far as Ca2+ goes, what's the best way to get it into problem eaters? can the powder be mixed in water or is there a liquid form that might work better?
I have a liquid supplement which does contain D3, I add it water every 3rd water change. I also use the powder once every 2 weeks, although I think this is just helping the good eaters as I haven't seen the fussy ones eat powdered food.

[EasternGirl]

Can you get this liquid supplement in the U.S. Chris?

[chris-uk]

Can you get this liquid supplement in the U.S. Chris?

You may be able to get something similar in the US, this is the stuff I use in the snakes' water:
http://www.vetark.co.uk/Shop/Reptiles/Supplements/Zolcal-D-liquid-calcium.aspx
I emailed the manufacturer (they're based in the UK) and got this reply:


Sorry we do not supply to the USA any more the FDA make it too difficult .

I suppose if any of you really wanted it I could get some and post it.

[EasternGirl]

I think I'll be good...because I have the calcimize and Greg is shipping me some reptasol...so with the two, I think they should get all the vitamins they need. I was just hoping that there was a liquid calcium supplement with D3 available here that I hadn't come across. I don't know why they don't have more liquid supplements available here. I am going to try mixing the powder in with the food again and see if I can get them to eat the food with it on there...it would be so much easier. Cee Cee will probably do it, because she will eat anything. I might be able to get Hermes to do it too. Seeley is the tough one...he barely eats as it is. The last time I tried the powder, he slithered over to his food...sniffed at it, and then literally stuck his nose up at it and turned away! Thanks for the offer, though Chris!

[gregmonsta]

I suppose if any of you really wanted it I could get some and post it.

:( Best not ... it'll be seized and destroyed. My attempt to post reptasol ended at the local post office :o

[EasternGirl]

If you could see me right now...I am making very angry faces at the post office...and mumbling obsenities that I cannot type on here...grumble...grumble....

[chris-uk]

I thought I'd conclude this thread. Unfortunately I found Bethan twitching and struggling to breath today, and decided that it was time.

Her movement has been getting worse and over the last few weeks I've been unable to make any real progress removing yet another retained shed. I started a thread about her shedding problems (http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/general-talk/10035-shedding-disorders.html) and I am convinced that she has a defect (maybe genetic, maybe a metabolic problem) which prevented her producing the enzymes to free the old skin from the new skin. There's nothing I can do to investigate or prove this theory.

As for her spinal problem, I couldn't bury her without checking. It looks like that was the way her spine grew, it was a wavy line rather than straight. There weren't kinks as such, in that there wasn't a specific point that had a sharp bend, it looked more like it was just a steady wave. There was no sign of any soft tissue abnormalities, and there was no sign of any inflammation around the vertebral joints (eliminating my theory about it being an autoimmune problem, like arthritis).
Her ribs were different lengths, that could have been caused or effect of the bendy spine (I lean towards it being an effect of having a spine that curved up in places). The ribs had grown to give her a flat belly so the ones attached to the vertebrae on the "bumps" were noticeably longer.

So it's been another sad snake day here. One that we knew was going to come, but a sad day all the same.

[guidofatherof5]

Sorry to hear this news. Thank you for giving Bethan a chance.

[EasternGirl]

I'm so sorry to hear this Chris. I know you tried your very best for her...you went above and beyond, did all that you could and then some. You gave her love and she knew that she was cared for and that is so important...that is what truly matters. She is lucky to have had you for the time that she had. We will remember her fondly. As Steve said, thank you for giving her a chance to live. Rest in peace special one.

[GarterGuy17]

Well now this has me scared , so I only feed worms and fish fillets but I never got around to the calcium. I just took my fingers and went down both sides of jades body the top is fine but under there is like a little ball not noticeable at all and she moves fine , very fast actually. Should I get the vitamins as soon as possible to avoid any problems ?

[ConcinusMan]

It takes quite a while of feeding a calcium deficient diet to do any harm and the problem is mainly seen in young rapidly growing snakes. Just a little note on the supplements... if your snake eats whole pinkies, even if just occasionally, then he's probably getting enough D3 and calcium. Pinkies have plenty. If you do use a supplement containing D3, go very sparingly on it. They don't need much and overdose isn't good.

[katach]

So very sorry for your loss Chris.

[GarterGuy17]

Well she hasnt eaten a pinky in over a month , I have had her since January 8th. when I first got her she was about 8 in now shes over a foot. Is this too long already of a calcium deficiency or should she be fine ? even so I would like to know what that little ball is under her.

[gregmonsta]

Sorry to hear the news Chris.

[ConcinusMan]

Well she hasnt eaten a pinky in over a month , I have had her since January 8th. when I first got her she was about 8 in now shes over a foot. Is this too long already of a calcium deficiency or should she be fine ? even so I would like to know what that little ball is under her.

I doubt she has calcium deficiency. Don't start taking every little thing as a sign of some sort of deficiency. Deficiency symptoms take a very long time to develop, and require a very poor diet over the long term. Snake sounds fine. Now as far as the lump is concerned, don't worry yourself over it. I've had snakes with anomalies or deformities like that and they lived long healthy lives. Like I said, if nothing changes, and the snake appears otherwise healthy, then I wouldn't worry about the bump at all.

[GarterGuy17]

I doubt she has calcium deficiency. Don't start taking every little thing as a sign of some sort of deficiency. Deficiency symptoms take a very long time to develop, and require a very poor diet over the long term. Snake sounds fine. Now as far as the lump is concerned, don't worry yourself over it. I've had snakes with anomalies or deformities like that and they lived long healthy lives. Like I said, if nothing changes, and the snake appears otherwise healthy, then I wouldn't worry about the bump at all.

Okay just wanted to make sure been paranoid lately :) thanks for your response though !

[chris-uk]

Well she hasnt eaten a pinky in over a month , I have had her since January 8th. when I first got her she was about 8 in now shes over a foot. Is this too long already of a calcium deficiency or should she be fine ? even so I would like to know what that little ball is under her.

A month isn't long enough for calcium deficiency. I wouldn't worry yet.
Bethan developed the lumps on her spine very early, so they were almost certainly there from birth. Over the last 5 months Bethan has eaten maybe a few small pieces of fish once a month, she drank fairly regularly including some calcium supplemented water every few weeks. Bethan hasn't been a well snake from the outset, so I wouldn't want you using her as an example of something to worry about with your little one.

[GarterGuy17]

Well jade is a beast she eats half a worm or some fish fillets every 2 days , She poops so much which is why I feed so often ! This is a sign of being healthy right ?

[EasternGirl]

My vet has told me and I have also read that pinkies do not provide adequate calcium. They do not have the bones for it because of their young age...their bones are primarily cartlidge...it hasn't developed into bone yet...so there isn't the calcium that bones supply.

Sorry to go off topic...and sorry again for your loss Chris.

[GarterGuy17]

yea very sorry for your loss. We know you did your best you will be in my thoughts.

[ConcinusMan]

My vet has told me and I have also read that pinkies do not provide adequate calcium. They do not have the bones for it because of their young age...their bones are primarily cartlidge...it hasn't developed into bone yet...so there isn't the calcium that bones supply.


Horse pucky. They don't have as much as adult mice, this is true, but it's still plenty. I raised Amy (male orange albino radix) up from neonate to adult on pinkies, tilapia and earthworms just fine. He never got any supplements. He's strong and healthy and grew nicely.

[EasternGirl]

Well, that's good to know then.