T. eques cuitzeoensis behaviour

[chris-uk]

I think these guys are different enough, and relatively undocumented enough to start a thread with some observations.

I'll start with one that worried me, but I'm now putting down as normal behaviour.
1 - Staying submerged.
I've seen our checkereds in their water bowl, moving around submerged for maybe 20 seconds. I'm currently watching our female in her tub of water. Her body is completely submerged in a tub that is a little under half her body length long and half as wide again. She's laying motionless in the water fully submerged. I watched her for a while before thinking she'd drowned herself... It had been between 5 and 10 minutes with no movement, so I gave her a poke and she moved.
Since then I have timed a couple of spells where I can see her head is definitely submerged. First spell was 7m 48s before she casually stuck her nose up for 10s, then back down for 3m 38s, nose up for a few seconds, then back down for 3m 25s. She's now laying motionless in the water with her nose above the surface.
The water is at night time room temperature of 20.5 centigrade.

So my first conclusion, is that these guys need a lot of water in their permanent viv. This evening the female had spent a lot of time in the water, this latest observation is at 2:30am, after I decided to sleep on the sofa - the snakes are on a table in the living room until their viv arrives, and 20 minutes ago I woke up when the cat knocked something off the table. I'll sleep here tonight to deter him from investigating the new arrivals too closely.

Has anyone else seen this sort of submarine behaviour in other garters?

[guidofatherof5]

Yes. I have some radixes that like to just sit on the bottom of their water dish for what I think is an extended period of time.
They know what they're doing so I don't worry anymore.

[chris-uk]

Thanks Steve, so it's not just the cuitzeoensis. I'll have to try harder to find something unique about them. :-)

Around seven and a half minutes seems to be her limit, I've now timed her for that long 3 times. She seems to show no sign of moving from the water. I'm looking forward to watching them through glass, rather than the slightly opaque plastic that they are in at the moment.

The female has been out lots so far, the male has stayed hidden most of the evening.

The other thing I will try with them is tong feeding in the water to see if I can encourage aquatic hunting behaviour. One of our checkereds will take food in her water bowl, so I'm sure that this girl will too.

[guidofatherof5]

T. eques cuitzeoensis. That's pretty unique. ;)

[chris-uk]

Good point Steve. They're bringing out the suppressed biologist in me. I'd love to be able to stimulate their tail hunting behaviour in captivity. :-)
Now I'm supposed to be sleeping not watching the new snakes, they're just too exciting. At least the cat has decided to sleep on his cushion since I came downstairs and has stopped watching the new snakes.

[guidofatherof5]

Don't forget to update your signature.

[katach]

Our baby NW likes to submerge as well, thus his name Fish Bait. Also, I read somewhere that if they have mites they tend to soak more, not sure if it's true our not as I have never dealt with mites before.

[chris-uk]

I don't know about mites and soaking more. There's no sign that they aren't 100% healthy, so I'm happy that soaking in the water is because they are amongst the more aquatic garters. Char read on Steve Bol's website that they can even be kept in a viv that has majority water and relatively little dry land, and that they don't appear to suffer from the skin complaints that other garters do in higher humidity. I'm not sure we'll go with a lot of water, but will definitely give them more water to play in than the checkereds will have.

[guidofatherof5]

Check the bottom of the water bowl for little round specks.
Snakes will soak to drownd the little buggers.
If you find something place it on a white paper towel smash and smear it.
If it's a mite it will leave a blood trail or dark brown/red stain.
It's probably nothing but it's better to check and make sure.;)

[zooplan]

Do you remember this?
Thamnophis eating a fish (underwater) - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L2pZ9bWVZpU)

It´s another but Meso American specy!

[RedSidedSPR]

My snake has held his head under water too... at first i worried, but like Steve said, they know what they're doing so i don't anymore.

[chris-uk]

Today they've been reclusive, and spent most of the day under their bark hide. I did peer under the log when I offered them a pinky each. They didn't eat them, it's probably too soon after being translocated. They both seemed happy enough with me sticking my hands in the RUB.
I'm not so worried about the submarine act now, 7.5 mins seemed like a long time when I was watching.

[chris-uk]

Observation number 2
These Mexican snakes like Strictly Come Dancing (I'll translate into American - "Dancing with the Stars"). We've barely seen them all day and Char has put Strictly on the TV, the snakes are temporarily in the living room and since Strictly has be on they've been craning their necks to see the telly. Very strange behaviour. :)

[kibakiba]

They probably see the movement on the tv and wonder what it is. My snakes all seem to try watching tv with us, too. They're very curious little snakes.

[hjelte]

Thanks for sharing the observations, interesting read! Here´s a pic of my Infernalis soaking underwater, he was under for at least 5 minutes before coming up. I´ve heard that they can do this if they are somewhat displeased with the temperature (too hot or cold), and I unfortunately have to admit to having that factor a bit out of control at the time he went for that bath. I was living temporarily with a friend, and had a really drafty and cold room where I also had to keep the snake. We´ve sinced moved into to a more properly isolated apartement.;)


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[RedSidedSPR]

Love that snake, man!!!

[hjelte]

the snake says thanks! ;)

[chris-uk]

Temperature control for our new Mexican guys isn't ideal, as they're in a large RUB until their viv gets delivered. The temps in the living room are pretty constant though at around 21-23C, I've got them sat on a heat mat plugged into a habistat as well so one end is at 28C and cooler at night.
The humidity has been a problem, I've been drilling an increasing number of holes in the RUB, but they're love of water and lack of good airflow is increasing humidity at times. They get wet and make the paper towels wet, which then dry and up goes the humidity. They'll have proper front to back air circulation in their Exo Terra vivs, and we'll move them onto aspen in there.

I'll be getting more pics when they have settled and somewhere it's easier to shoot them.

[guidofatherof5]

Here is one awsome article. Check this out Chris.
http://digitallibrary.amnh.org/dspace/bitstream/handle/2246/2832/v2/dspace/ingest/pdfSource/nov/N3406.pdf?sequence=1

[dieselbaby]

Those are some neat looking snakes, love the pink worm tail.. i can just picture them fishing with that lol Congrats on the new additions.

[chris-uk]

Behaviour observation number 3 -
I came downstairs this morning to find the two of them twisted together. I could see the tail ends and they look like the were twisted all the way to their heads, it was hard to tell as their temporary RUB is slightly opaque and the room was still dim. I snapped a couple of pics from my phone as it was in my pocket, but they really aren't clear.

Two snakes twisted together... Means what I think it does, right? Or at least they're trying.

[chris-uk]

Steve thanks for the link to that article, I've been meaning to track down that paper.

[hjelte]

After reading through that article, I´d get those snakes a lake if I were you ;)
No wonder they spend time in their waterbowls! Really nice read, props to Steve!

[guidofatherof5]

I found this info. also.

Steven Bol Gartersnakes (http://www.stevenbolgartersnakes.nl/soorten_gb_bestanden/Page321.htm)

Thamnophis eques cuitzeoensis | Flickr - Photo Sharing! (http://www.flickr.com/photos/fonssleijpen/5556401417/)

I found this very interesting information in the Steven Bol's link above.

"When fed with life fish one should be able to observe a unique hunting technique (that I have personally never witnessed) which the snakes use in the wild (Conant, 2003). The snakes float in a single looped position, head submersed near the tail. They wiggle their tales as a lure to attract fish"

[chris-uk]

Steven Bol was the breeder for our pair, so we've had a good read on his website. I've just emailed him to clarify the parentage of our two, as the way I'm reading his breeding certificate our female's parents were brother/sister, so I'm just trying to clarify that, and get a bit more information from him about the breeding habits of these guys (they've been intertwined at least 3 times today).

[kibakiba]

The twisting would be the end of the courtship, he likely chased her around the tank a few laps and now he's trying to persuade her to do the dirty with him, or they could be doing it right before your eyes... Give them more privacy! :p


If she drags him around the tank, you know they've done it and that's usually when they're done... It's probably the most painful part of a garters courtship.... Ouch!

[guidofatherof5]

To watch the drag factor part of their mating makes me think more then "Ouch"
Talk about taking one for the team.
:D

[PINJOHN]

To watch the drag factor part of their mating makes me think more then "Ouch"
Talk about taking one for the team.

:D
remember this one, i think it covers the situation at hand



said a garter to one of his dates
at sex you are up with the greats
but it has to be said
that my face is still red
since you dragged me past all of my mates

[RedSidedSPR]

Awesome im lovin these guys!

[kibakiba]

Well, I'm not a male so I can't think anything more than ouch. Wouldn't know what that's like.... But I cant imagine I'd like to carry all that extra weight behind me from there...

[chris-uk]

Hopefully they are just getting some practice, we don't really want baby snakes until next year. How long can garters keep up a courtship? I'm sure they haven't locked yet and I'd prefer it if the male took a cold shower.
I watched a couple of Steve's videos on YouTube, and it looks painful for the male...

[guidofatherof5]

Just practicing. Now that's funny. :D Garter snakes don't practice. They don't need it.
Lock-ups can happen quickly and last a short time. I'd mark this date on a calendar.

Looking forward to seeing babies 60-120 days from now.;):D

[chris-uk]

At 15 months is this about right for the first bit of xxx rated snake action?
I read that the female can store sperm for months before using it, is that why you say 60-120 days Steve? To take into account that you can't be sure whether fertilisation happens now or in a couple of months. I'd better do some more reading about what to expect and what to look out for.

[guidofatherof5]

I say 60-120 days only in that there seems to be a wide range of gestation times for garter snakes.
I've personally never had a snake go past 70 days after copulation.
I know other member have had snakes go well past that amount of time.

[kibakiba]

When it comes to northwesterns at least, females can retain sperm until the right time. I don't thing the other species can hold it quite as long as a NW can. Not too sure on that, though. Don't quote me on it

[chris-uk]

Time for another update now that "El Mariachi" (as we call Vlad and Lacrimosa collectively) are settled into their new permanant (until we move them to the 90cm Exo Terra next year) viv.

So they're now in a 60x45x45 Exo Terra viv, with a large water bowl, log hide, silk plants, bit of rock, under-floor heating, over-head spotlight, and aspen floor cover. And a kitchen roll tube. The seem quite comfortable in there and are gradually getting more accustomed to being in the corner of our living room with all the activity that entails.

Last night they ate for the first time since we picked them up, both are still too nervy to tong feed, but neither could resist the tempatation when I set out a bowl of salmon pieces outside their hide. I was a bit nervous for them because with them being nervy I wasn't hovering over them with the viv door open, but I was ready to intervene if they went for the same piece. Fortunately, Vlad was a gent and let Lacrimosa eat first, then when she moved away he ate. There was just one moment when I worried that she was going to try to steal his salmon, but having kept the pieces small they were both swallowing quickly enough that there wasn't any real danger.

I had offered them pinkies a couple of days ago and trout, but they both refused those, although at that time I was just trying to tong feed. Once I have them tong feeding I plan to encourage them to feed in the water as they would do in the wild. Yes, I'm determined to try to stimulate their natural fishing behaviour (but without resorting to feeding live guppies).

So, other than the latest feeding behaviour... We tend to still see a lot of heads poking out that disappear quickly when you move towards them. They are getting braver and staying out longer and coming back out quicker. They've let me touch them without running for cover a few times as well, so the slow process of building up trust is moving along, slowly. I'm hoping after another feed they will start associating me with food ;).

With them being so nervy I've not managed any great pictures. When I do you know I'll share them with you.

[chris-uk]

Just after I posted that last update I did a round of the vivs to check up on the snakes, and found the Cuitzeo pair locked up. That was about an hour and half ago, and it looks like they are still going... although I have to say that Vlad looks like he just wants out. She's dragged him into their half-log hide and he keeps trying to come out before he realises that he now needs to go wherever she is, and he gets dragged uncermoniously back into the hide.
I've filled the two SD cards on my camera, so now I have Char's camera pointing into the hide.

More updates coming when there's something to update you with.

[guidofatherof5]

"The Joy of Snake Sex" wasn't that a book?:D

[chris-uk]

We missed the disengagement, it happened while I was picking Char up from work, and her camera had run out of memory to film it. Reviewing the video there's a lot of, "Oooo", "Ow", and "Poor Vlad" moments. It was like he'd got his tackle caught in a washing machine on a spin cycle...
I'll edit the video clips and post a few highlights. At the moment Vlad is having a bath, he just needs a smoking jacket and a cigarette in a holder. Here he is, not a great picture, but you get the idea:
3165

[guidofatherof5]

Everything back where it belongs on Vlad?

[chris-uk]

Everything back where it belongs on Vlad?
Looked like it, he seems to be slithering OK without any unwanted friction. :-D
Is there any special attention to give them after the act? Obviously I was joking about providing Vlad with cigarettes, but is there anything to look out for other than Vlad's tackle in the wrong place?

[guidofatherof5]

As long as the hemipenis has retracted and is back in its garage he should be fine.
He'll be ready to go again right about...........now.:D

[Char361979]

The poor litle fella looks like he needs lotion to sooth his bits and pieces. Poor Vlad.

[johnc79@hotmail.com]

How are they both doing? Did you seperate them in the end? Dont forget there only last years so its not good if she gets pregnant .

[chris-uk]

They're both doing OK, eating well from a bowl of salmon when I leave them to it. They aren't keen on tong feeding yet, but I think I'll get them there soon. Both are still a bit skittish, slowly getting used to the new home. The male is actually slightly happier to be handled and Char had him out for almost an hour on Friday, and I had the female out for about 15 minutes yesterday.
We've not been able to separate them. It's a case of not having space for an extra viv at the moment (I've got a 3' in the loft, which we'll be able to use once my dad has built a shelving unit for our ExoTerras), so to separate them we'd need to risk having one of them in with our baby checkereds in a smaller viv. Ideally they wouldn't have shown any interest until next year, at 16 months they are young but if they weren't captive nature has decided that she is mature to breed. They haven't shown any interest in courting apart from the one time. Not ideal, but we weren't expecting to have to consider breeding issues until next year, so playing it by ear a bit.

[guidofatherof5]

I think it's great that you have the opportunity to work with this species.
All photos are much appreciated.

[chris-uk]

Photos at the moment are all a bit fuzzy - either they aren't keeping still (I have several deleted photos of rapidly retreating snakes), or when they are still the photos are taken through glass in generally poor light, or snapped on my phone because that was in my hand.

3255
Here's on of Lacrimosa that isn't too bad to keep you going.

[johnc79@hotmail.com]

What about the rub you collected them in? The male would be fine in there for a while. I'm not interfering it's just I'd be gutted if anything happend to them. Even next year would be to soon. There a larger garter snake than others. My female is 09 and I'm not going to breed her untill next year. I keep all mine in single sex groups. If nature has her sexually mature at 16 months still does not mean she could cope with pregnancy . Like I say I'm not interfering but I do feel responsible if she dies as she is only half grown. I'm sure most people would agree it's not ideal.:(

[johnc79@hotmail.com]

Thinking about it I have a spair viv I could lend you if that helps?

[chris-uk]

No, I don't see you interfering John, we're still learning about snakes so advice is all useful. Fair point about her coping with the pregnancy despite being mature enough to mate. These guys are unique enough to warrant some caution, so we'll split them up as soon as possible.

It's not so much the viv, it's the space to put the viv. I'm visiting my dad at the weekend, he's a handyman and has the tools to build cabinets, so my plan is to get him to build some shelves to sit on top of the unit that the 2' viv is currently sat on, and have doubledecker 2' vivs (I've got a plan to build something modular that will allow another 2' to be stcked on top later). I'm sure once I've given him some plans to work from at the weekend I'll have a custom shelf unit in a week or two. If they seem "frisky" in the meantime I'll look at pulling Vlad out into the RUB.

[johnc79@hotmail.com]

That's cool :) the spare viv I have is wooden and could take an Exo on top of it. I won't need it untill a couple of babys are bigger . At least 12 months. Also have a spare 2 ft rub. The offers there if you need it. :)

[dsmdavid22]

Hey Chris, I have a checkered thats roughly 7 or 8 months old and I know exactly what you mean.The first few times I saw this it really freaked me out too.And I also gave nudges and more than once I have actually taken him out of his space 4 a few hours.Eventhough I know it is normal, I find it hard not to worry. We're both gonna be just fine.

Happy Holiday's,David

[chris-uk]

Wow David... checkereds getting it on at 7-8 months. And welcome to the forum. :)

[chris-uk]

Here's a few pictures of Vlad from this evening before he ate. Lacrimosa is still a bit uncooperative, but she tong fed tonight so I think she's learning which side her bread is buttered and who she needs to be nice to.


His better side?
http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//734/medium/Vlad_2021_resize800x329.JPG


Protecting Char's wedding and engagement rings, he's a mummys boy.
http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//734/medium/Vlad_2011_resize900x851.JPG


Yep, the tongue works just fine.
http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//734/Vlad_2009_resize500x342.JPG


Everyone looks better with a bit of soft focus...
http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//734/VLAD_2013_resize397x600.JPG

[guidofatherof5]

Beautiful snake. Love those eyes.

[Char361979]

He is definately a mama's boy. had him out about half an hour ago. He was out for a good 45mins. Best part (and cutest)... he turned and looked at me, slowly came up to my face, flicked his tongue over my nose a couple of times, then just rested his chin on the tip of my nose. Didn't move until I moved him. Very difficult to read with a dirty great black snake on the end of your nose.

Chris is convinced Vlad hates him. Everytime Chris tries to handle him he puts up a fight or gets musky. comedy moment the other day. Vlad was in my hands quite happily minding his own business, had been for an hour while Chris was talking to Steve on skype. the minute Chris touched him he freaked out and musked on the floor. Like I said, a mama's boy.

[guidofatherof5]

Great story.
I have a big female radix(Big girl) that doesn't like my daughter Gabby.
She will bite at her if she tries to hold her but comes right out to me to be held.

[Char361979]

I don't think he'd bite Chris... just make him stink a little.

[katach]

Toothless (female puget) is like that. She will let Bill hold her forever but she doesn't let me.

[EasternGirl]

Lovely looking snakes you have there....I love the pics. I enjoyed reading about them. My easterns like to soak and swim but never stay submerged. My two girls like to wrap around each other all the time and curl up together...Selena even likes to ride on Cee Cee's back around the enclosure sometimes...I'm sure this is very different than witnessing the "act of love" between male and female! Lol...would like to see the video of that if you can post it.

[Char361979]

I'm a girl and I could feel Vlad's pain during the "act of love". She flung him about like a ragdoll by his little boy bits.

[EasternGirl]

Poor Vlad! Alright...someone post a video of snake sex...I need to see this.

[Char361979]

Chris seems to think steve has a good one. Male snake being dragged around by his you know whats.

[guidofatherof5]

Poor Vlad! Alright...someone post a video of snake sex...I need to see this.

AdRhUm1lmuE

Dop7h0YKbJI

[Char361979]

That wasn't as brutal as some.

[EasternGirl]

That was really interesting to watch...I had never watched snakes mating before. Thanks, Steve. Julian thanks you for his birds and the bees...or snakes and the bees lesson, as we had "the talk" earlier this year...and now he got to watch this video. Don't worry...I explained to him that it is a bit different with humans...lol!

[Char361979]

Thank god you told him it was different in humans or I think it's safe to say you would probably never be a grandmother!!

[EasternGirl]

Right? Thank God it is different for humans! I think the population would slowly come to a halt! Lol... What if women dragged men all over the place after sex like that?

[BUSHSNAKE]

we'd still be into it...lol

[EasternGirl]

ha ha...

[chris-uk]

We had our first cuitzeoensis shed overnight. Came downstairs this morning to find a shiney, shiney Vlad and a twisted but complete shed. He'd been getting dull for a while, we saw that his eyes were blue 5 days ago, he stayed blue phase for 2 days, and has shed 3 days later.
Tail and eyecaps are intact. So we can consider the first shed a success. :-)

[PINJOHN]

Right? Thank God it is different for humans! I think the population would slowly come to a halt! Lol... What if women dragged men all over the place after sex like that?

sorry couldn't help pulling this one out

said a garter to one of his dates
at sex you are up with the greats
but it has to be said
that my face is still red
since you dragged me past all of my mates
__________________

[indigoman]

Thanks for starting my day off with a laugh!

[EasternGirl]

Good news Chris!

[chris-uk]

Lacrimosa has spent about 9 hours straight in her water bowl today. Vlad has stopped in for a couple of short baths as well, but it's Lacrimosa that is setting the record. I've heard about T. equis spending a lot of time in water, but today is the first day I've actually seen it. She's still in there now, with her chin propped on the side (I think she's just been watching the end of the Brazillian Grand Prix, and doesn't look impressed with the Red Bull 1/2 but is happy to see Mclaren on the podium).
I've got to the point where I'm hoping she gets out of the water before I go to bed, because I may end up staying up just to see how long she stays in there.

[johnc79@hotmail.com]

Lacrimosa has spent about 9 hours straight in her water bowl today. Vlad has stopped in for a couple of short baths as well, but it's Lacrimosa that is setting the record. I've heard about T. equis spending a lot of time in water, but today is the first day I've actually seen it. She's still in there now, with her chin propped on the side (I think she's just been watching the end of the Brazillian Grand Prix, and doesn't look impressed with the Red Bull 1/2 but is happy to see Mclaren on the podium).
I've got to the point where I'm hoping she gets out of the water before I go to bed, because I may end up staying up just to see how long she stays in there.

My female spends most her time in the bowl aswell but the male hardly goes in.

[chris-uk]

Must be a girl thing. I'll get her some bath bombs from Lush for Christmas.

And as Sod's Law would have it, she got out of the water just after my last post. Still 9h straight in water... that can't happen often for other species.

[kibakiba]

I love Lush! :D

[chris-uk]

Had some more courting behaviour this afternoon. So Vlad has ended up in a temporary home in a RUB for now, before he gets to forth base. It's going to be a week or so before we get his viv (or the what will be the "grown male" viv) in place. I hope he won't be too upset with us moving from his Hilton viv, to a flee pit motel. :)

[EasternGirl]

Lol...

[guidofatherof5]

I hope he won't be too upset with us moving from his Hilton viv, to a flee pit motel. :)

He wouldn't mind at all as long as he had his lady with him. :D

[chris-uk]

He wouldn't mind at all as long as he had his lady with him. :D

Poor lad. He seems to be fine, I did give him a few home comforts, she didn't get to keep both houses in the settlement, he got one hide, some of the greenery and one of the toilet roll tubes. And he has a better view of the TV from his bachelor pad.

[guidofatherof5]

Poor lad. He seems to be fine, I did give him a few home comforts, she didn't get to keep both houses in the settlement, he got one hide, some of the greenery and one of the toilet roll tubes. And he has a better view of the TV from his bachelor pad.

And yet, he would trade it all for................... :D

[chris-uk]

She did get to keep the swimming pool, he's not so impressed with the small paddling pool in the new pad. He will have his day.

[Char361979]

She did get to keep the swimming pool, he's not so impressed with the small paddling pool in the new pad.

It was quite funny watching him trying to get into the tiny pool he has now. It was a case of "well I've got my neck in, so if I Just... but now my neck is out... maybe if I... ok, so now my neck is in and my but is out.... oh to hell with this, I'm going back in the hide!"

[chris-uk]

We had our second Cuitzeo shed today. Lacrimosa, the female, had a good shed just when we were starting to worry.

1 Dec it looked like her belly was going blue, then on the 2 Dec it had an obvious bluishness and her eyes looked blue.
3 Dec her eyes were definitely blue and she started hiding even more than usual. Her viv has been struggling to keep humidity over 40% so I started misting a few times a day, and festidiously keeping the moss in her cold hide moist.
5 Dec her eyes had cleared in the morning.
8 Dec she finally decided to shed this afternoon. She broke the skin on her face using the edge of her bark hide. Then got shy when I started watching, so I wandered off and looked back every 5 munutes, I couldn't see much because she chose to hide under her foliage. After about half an hour Char thought she was done so went to take the skin out, only to find that the last couple of inches were still attached, not for long as Lacrimosa pulled against the shed and freed her tail.

Both eyecaps in place, full tail (I'd hate for either of these guys to loose any tail at all). I had a fun few minutes blowing into the shed to inflate it, shame I had no way to keep it inflated while it dried.

[Char361979]

For a moment it looked like you were going to make ballon animals out of it.

[EasternGirl]

Rofl...

[chris-uk]

Both cuitzeoensis are eating well, particularly Lacrimosa. She took a pinky from my hand last night, the first to take anything direct from my hand rather than the tongs or a bowl. To be honest it was just me being lazy, I'd left the tongs downstairs with the checkereds and wanted to get her focused on her food. I wouldn't do it for anything smaller than a whole pinky...

[EasternGirl]

Good to hear they are eating well.

[chris-uk]

Snake in a bath...
3571

Lacrimosa doesn't seem to have got the idea, she's in there for some exercise, and although you can't tell from the photo... She's not actually swimming that much. I should expect it really, these are snakes that can happily spend 7 hours in a bowl of water, including those worrying spells completely submerged for 5-10 minutes. Oh, she's moved a bit while I've been typing, she's facing the other way now.

I'll give her a bit longer, but the bath was really poured for Lightning who is the resident Miss Pigg, so Lacky just got the leftover bath water. She could be there all night if I let her.

[guidofatherof5]

Some of them do like their water. ;)

[chris-uk]

These guys are growing nicely. I realised I hadn't weighed them since the 3 November... so just had a weighing session with them.

Lacrimosa has porked up, going from 98g to 134g (36% increase) in 2 months. She's had one shed in that time.
Vlad has grown a bit slower, going from 68g to 86g (26% increase) in the months. He's also had one shed in between weighs.
They're feeding pretty much the same amount since they've been in seperate vivs, a mix of pinkies and trout once a week (generally it's about the equivilent to 2-3 pinkies), plus they get the leftovers from the checkered/blackneck midweek feed.

Both are still pretty skittish, Vlad is only happy when Char holds him, I think these are definitely going to be watching rather than holding snakes in the longer term. That means when they go into their 90cm viv next year I'll put some effort into providing a really nice environment for them, I've got plans for a pumped/filtered water zone which will cover about a third of the 90cm ExoTerra we have for them. Ideally I want to find some photos of the enviornment that they are found in, the photos I've seen of Lake Cuitzeo so far have been general landscapes, but I'm sure there must be photos out there.

[EasternGirl]

I have found that although my easterns do like to swim in their water dish...when I have tried to offer them a bath in the sink, they are so skiddish they just flip out and flop all over the place and try to jump out of the basin. I have also tried putting a large bowl of water in their enclosures for swimming, but they don't go near it...so I have given up for now on offering swim time. I'm not sure about Hermes yet...I will have to see how he feels about it when he is a little bigger.

[chris-uk]

Both our Cuitzeos have taken to spending all night in their water, they tend to be in their bowls when we go to bed and still there in the morning. Vlad spends longer in than Lacrimosa, Laci is sometimes out and in her hide in the morning.
I'm finding that Laci will come out to check out my fingers consistently, which is nice.

I nearly lost Laci this evening. In my jumper. I had her out while we watched Sherlock on TV for an hour and a half. She was out and about for just under an hour, then disappeared up my sleave and curled up to sleep around my shoulder for half an hour or so. She didn't want to come out, but I coaxed her out and she's back home in her viv. It's good that she's getting calmer and seems to enjoy contact with me, she doesn't settle as quickly with Char as she is with me.

Laci is becoming my favourite of the seven.

[Char361979]

I'm fine with this because Vlad is still a Mama's boy.

[kibakiba]

Snakey's a mama's boy too... In two ways! He loves being around B
ig Mama, and he loves being held with me. I hate having the little guy in brumation right now... I just want to pick him p and love on him, but I cant!

[chris-uk]

I think we'll be brumating the two Cuitzeos next Autumn.
All of ours are young enough to be awake at the moment, next year I think the Cuitzeos for sure, and the blacknecks. That will leave us with just the checkered girls out over the winter.

[chris-uk]

We have both Cuitzeos about to shed.

Vlad last shed on 26 November, and his eyes are clear today after being blue for the last few days. He'll shed at some point over the weekend. Vlad stops eating for a week before a shed so he should be hungry when it comes to his next feed (it's feed day today, but I won't even bother trying him today). I got a photo of him yesterday with white eyes, I'm sure his eyes went whiter than the checkereds' eyes do, and against the black skin... I'll upload the pic when I get a chance.

I just looked at Lacrimosa and he eyes are starting to cloud, she was clear yesterday evening. So it looks like she's a few days behind Vlad in the shedding stakes. She last shed on the 8 December, so we're seeing good growth rates from her considering she's 18 months old. Size-wise, she was 140g when I weighed her a few days ago, and she's around 90cm (so knocking 3' already). She's a good eater, and last ate on Monday, I'll skip her feed today because she didn't eat at this point in her last shed, and she was incredibly skittish when looked at her to check her eyes.

I'm really encouraged by the way these two are growing. I expect Lacrimosa is already the sort of size that we can expect the checkereds to get to in 3 years time, if she keeps growing at this rate we may have a female to compare to Steve Bol's largest (128cm).

[guidofatherof5]

A good update. Always nice to hear.;)

[chris-uk]

I love our Cuitzeos, Lacrimosa is definitely my favourite (closely followed by Eskerina because she has bags of personality). Laci was really jumpy today, worst I've seen her, but then she couldn't see properly so that's understandable. Most of the time she's great when I get her out.

[johnc79@hotmail.com]

They really grow fast don't they Chris. I will dig out the photos when I got them last year, not much bigger than your black necks.



We have both Cuitzeos about to shed.

Vlad last shed on 26 November, and his eyes are clear today after being blue for the last few days. He'll shed at some point over the weekend. Vlad stops eating for a week before a shed so he should be hungry when it comes to his next feed (it's feed day today, but I won't even bother trying him today). I got a photo of him yesterday with white eyes, I'm sure his eyes went whiter than the checkereds' eyes do, and against the black skin... I'll upload the pic when I get a chance.

I just looked at Lacrimosa and he eyes are starting to cloud, she was clear yesterday evening. So it looks like she's a few days behind Vlad in the shedding stakes. She last shed on the 8 December, so we're seeing good growth rates from her considering she's 18 months old. Size-wise, she was 140g when I weighed her a few days ago, and she's around 90cm (so knocking 3' already). She's a good eater, and last ate on Monday, I'll skip her feed today because she didn't eat at this point in her last shed, and she was incredibly skittish when looked at her to check her eyes.

I'm really encouraged by the way these two are growing. I expect Lacrimosa is already the sort of size that we can expect the checkereds to get to in 3 years time, if she keeps growing at this rate we may have a female to compare to Steve Bol's largest (128cm).

[chris-uk]

Thanks John. Would be good to have some baby photos of them. :)

[EasternGirl]

Thanks for the update...guess the impending shed explains all that soaking in the water dish. Good to hear all are doing well!

[chris-uk]

Thanks for the update...guess the impending shed explains all that soaking in the water dish. Good to hear all are doing well!

Actually, with the Cuitzeos the change in behaviour was that Vlad was spending more time in his hides and less time in his water bowl for the last few days. Since his eyes clouded we've not seen him in his water. He shed when we were out but we must have got home within half an hour of him shedding, and he was half in his water already. Now he's doing his submarine impression, so it's back to business as usual.

[chris-uk]

So we just had both Cuitzeos shed on consecutive days, Lacrimosa shed this afternoon. She was subtle and quiet, because she hadn't shed when I sat down at my desk but had when I finished working. It looks like she pretty much shed underneath her bark hides, I could see the shed in a pile at the back entry to the hide. Everything intact, so no worries about shedding problems for her.

She's eaten well today, I may have overfed her slightly because Vlad didn't eat his pinkies (he's fussy and just ate the fish) so Lacrimosa got his two pinkies as well as her own. She's not eaten for over a week though.

Behaviour-wise, it's interesting to note that both of them behaved the same with respect to sleeping in their water bowls around shed time. It seems that popular conception is that garters spend more time in water when they are due to shed (is this anecdotal, or does anyone have species that soak before a shed?) but Vlad and Lacky both stopped sleeping in their bowls. Vlad returned to his to sleep last night, and currently both are back in their bowls. Based on garters feeling more vulnerable during shedding and therefore seeking their most secure hiding spots, I'm dismissing my earlier thought that they slept overnight in water for security. If sleeping in water was where they felt most secure then they would have hidden in their water during the shedding phase.
Which then leads on to the question, do Lake Cuitzeo garters in the wild actually prefer sleeping in the lake?

It could be a thermoregulation thing, their water stays at a more constant temp than the air in their vivs. But it stays at the same sort of temps as our nighttime air temperature in the house so it's of less benefit at night compared to day.

Curious little things these Cuitzeos. :)

[guidofatherof5]

Always love reading your updates Chris.

[chris-uk]

Always love reading your updates Chris.

Thanks. You'd better hope that the Cuitzeos keep doing interesting things so I post more updates on them. :) They're interesting enough, and raising enough questions, that I want to go and observe them in the wild. Too far and too expensive at the moment though. :(

By the way, if other Cuitzeo owners have any observations to add feel free, don't worry about hijacking the thread because I intended this to be a Cuitzeo thread, not a "my Cuitzeo" thread.

[guidofatherof5]

After our Skype conversation and background goings-on I think it might be time for an update. Full details and photo would be great.
Don't mean to put you on the spot but come on. :D

[chris-uk]

Update will come over the weekend. Maybe not until Sunday though as we have a busy weekend and the photos need transferring to the PC and cropping.
You just want me to tell stories about a snake's manhood, don't you Steve?

[guidofatherof5]

Spill it all Chris.

[EasternGirl]

Just to answer one of your questions...Cee Cee, my eastern female, soaks in her water dish before a shed. I have not seen Seeley or Hermes do it...I have seen them swim around in their water dishes a bit before a shed...but Cee Cee will actually sit in her dish for long spells before a shed. I have seen her sitting in her dish for several hours right before she sheds. Thanks for the update...always enjoy reading them!

[chris-uk]

I've still not had the chance to transfer the pics Steve wanted to see from my camera (been busy with work and lots going on other than the snakes, yes I suffer from thamnophisphilia but still have other things to do). The photos will come, I promise Steve.

Just thought I'd quickly share that Lacrimosa gave me my first nibble today. I think I've mentioned that she will come out of her hide to check out my fingers and hand, and I've always had the uneasy feeling that she's trying to work out if I'm food or not. Today, after I fed her a leftover pinky head she went hunting around her viv for more, and I left both hands in the viv as an opportunity for her to become more accustomed to me. Five minutes later, she had been all round the viv and approached my hand through one of her kitchen towel tubes, came up to my fingers and flicked at them with her tongue, then rested her nose on my index finger for a second before drawing back and slowly biting down on my finger as I was moving it away.
Either she was finally checking whether my fingers were edible, or it's an incident like Steve had a month or so back where his radix (I think it was the Enforcer?) struck at his nose a couple of times because he hadn't brought enough food. I like to think Lacrimosa was telling me off for not bringing her more than a single pinky head (I'd intended it for Vlad anyway), but more likely I still had a bit of salmon/pinky smell on my fingers despite having washed my hands after chopping the little ones' food.

[EasternGirl]

Cee Cee attempts that every single time I feed her now. I think she is just crazed over food and trying to eat everything in sight. She also tries to eat the dish the food is in, the plants, the log hide, and the glass tank walls!

[guidofatherof5]

Cee Cee attempts that every single time I feed her now. I think she is just crazed over food and trying to eat everything in sight. She also tries to eat the dish the food is in, the plants, the log hide, and the glass tank walls!

Good survival skills.

[BUSHSNAKE]

Cee Cee attempts that every single time I feed her now. I think she is just crazed over food and trying to eat everything in sight. She also tries to eat the dish the food is in, the plants, the log hide, and the glass tank walls!
Marnie, is that the female that bred? increase in appitite is a sign a female is gravid

[chris-uk]

Okay, as Steve knows I've been sitting on this for almost two weeks. Hopefully it won't re-open the debate about whether our Cuitzeos are large enough to mate. We decided to put them back in together because both of them seemed to be a lot more miserable on their own, especially Vlad. Vlad had become very reclusive and very jumpy since they'd been separated. Lacky is now heavier than many females of other species when they are sexually mature, and going from information in the Connant article where he describes discovering the Cuitzeo's, she is also the same size as the gravid sample he captured. Maybe another year would find her better sized to breed, but I really think that neither of them were thriving in isolation so the chance that she may become gravid earlier than ideal is a small price to pay for two happier snakes.

Initially we just intended to give Vlad half an hour with Lacrimosa as a "supervised visit" because Char had brought him up to the office and he and Lacky were showing signs of recognition through the glass.
So we let Vlad into Lacky's viv and within 30 seconds they were all over each other. Literally 2 minutes later we realised that they'd actually locked up, I'd expected a period of courting before we'd have to separate them but it was too late.
So we watched them for an hour, and during the end phase I felt sorry for Vlad and tried to steer Lacky away from some of the tighter spaces in her viv where it would be more difficult for Vlad to keep up with the twists.
Anyway, they disengaged, and I could see Vlad's manhood hanging out for all to see and snapped some photos while he was over the water bowl. I also have to confess to having had a feel of Vlad's manhood, so I can describe the texture as well as showing you the photos Steve asked for a couple of weeks ago...

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//734/Vlad_hemipenis_6_-_IMG_2152_cropped_resized.JPG

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//734/medium/Vlad_hemipenis_5_-_IMG_2147_cropped_resized.JPG


(http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/showphoto.php?photo=10334&title=te-cuitzeoensishemipenis&cat=734)You can clearly see some of the spikes that keep the male in place during mating. The whole hemipenis (yes, the photo does just show one hemipenis, not both hemipenes) has a surface texture a bit like a lychee skin, you can see the smaller spikes over the whole surface. The other way I've described it is like a medieval mace, a big spiky ball. In both photos you can see two larger spikes these feel like they have something sharp bony under the surface, a bit like a cocktail stick. These two spikes are obviously the main anchors for securing the hemipenis for semen delivery, but I'm sure the smaller spikes also help keep it in place. You can see that there is a bit of blood on the larger spikes, obviously from Lacky (I checked her immediately as well and she showed no signs of injury or bleeding from the vent).
It took Vlad about 2 minutes to retract the hemipenis, and while he was pulling it back in I spotted a small piece of aspen that I picked off, while I held him off the substrate. I think that is something to bear in mind during mating, I don't know if the substrate would have come off before the hemipenis was retracted, but there has to be a small risk that substrate will be pulled into the male's inverted hemipenis.
The big white glob you can see in the photos is clearly snake semen. There was no sign of a semen plug in Lacky, so it looks like Cuitzeos are one of the majority of species that don't use a plug to prevent other males mating with a recently inseminated female.

I wanted to share these photos with you because I'm aware that there aren't too many photos of mature, healthy, hemipenes around. Most of the photos I've seen online are either babies being popped, or injured hemipenes. Interesting to see that the Cuitzeo has quite a bulbous hemipenis, if you check "The Text Book" it doesn't look entirely like any of the 3 different examples the book shows but a little like the shorter example.

Anyway, I thought I'd share this with you.

[guidofatherof5]

Medieval torture/pleasure device looking thing.
As long as it gets the job done and you have some beautiful little scrubs in the end.
Thanks for posting the photos Chris.

[EasternGirl]

For the love of all that is holy...I just went celibate! There are just no words...no words. You know how you men feel when someone discusses getting kicked in the jewels? That is the theoretical pain I am experiencing right now. Or sympathetic pain, you might say...poor Lacrimosa! I had no idea the hemipenis was so large...and you say that is just one? Copulation must be extremely painful for the female. It really does look like a mace.

And Joe...yes, I was speaking of the female that possibly mated with my male. I have noticed the increase in her appetite and how crazy she acts over food...I need to check her weight again.

[mikem]

great pics! thanks for sharing that! and hemipenes are scary. :eek: not trying to get off topic here, but if you want to see some close ups of corn snake hemipenes, click here (http://cccorns.com/forum/showthread.php?t=722). you can compare it to what you saw and see similarities and differences. scary indeed!

[EasternGirl]

It's purple! I think the garter hemipenis is actually more frightening than the corn snake's. Now is that one or two in the corn snake pic? How many do they have?

[mikem]

i believe it's just one.

yea, those pics chris posted look... menacing, lol! the two larger spikes look like fangs!

[chris-uk]

The two larger spikes felt vicious. So when you see videos of garters mating and feel sorry for a male being taken through a spin cycle... think about the female with that stuck inside her.
There are numerous evolutions of the hemipenes, and there's a few photos floating around the web, but the Cuitzeos are the first I've seen with the big spikes. Not that I've spent a lot of time looking for photos of snake tackle.

[kibakiba]

Admit it, Chris, you love snake tackle.

[chris-uk]

Admit it, Chris, you love snake tackle.
It was quite funny, I started a conversation with Steve on Skype talking about having touched a snake hemipenis thinking that it was something that everyone (that had lots of snakes) had done at some time. And I'd pinged him a message saying "Does it sound wrong if I say that I just touched a snake *****?", it's one way to get someone's attention.
It was definitely one of my most interesting garter moments.

[kibakiba]

Haha. I've never even seen a hemipene. Snakey almost always had his stuffed in Mama.. Haha.

[EasternGirl]

Lol...I would be afraid to touch it. Maybe the reason the female throws the male all over the place during mating is because she is in pain.

[PINJOHN]

For the love of all that is holy...I just went celibate! There are just no words...no words. You know how you men feel when someone discusses getting kicked in the jewels? That is the theoretical pain I am experiencing right now. Or sympathetic pain, you might say...poor Lacrimosa! I had no idea the hemipenis was so large...and you say that is just one? Copulation must be extremely painful for the female. It really does look like a mace.

And Joe...yes, I was speaking of the female that possibly mated with my male. I have noticed the increase in her appetite and how crazy she acts over food...I need to check her weight again.
I have just had an epiphany moment, now i understand just why all those ex girlfriends used to scream.....:D

[EasternGirl]

Oh dear lord...if that is what you have, you can just stay over there in the U.K. Can you imagine? Men would never get any.

[guidofatherof5]

Oh dear lord...if that is what you have, you can just stay over there in the U.K. Can you imagine? Men would never get any.

or any thing. :D

[chris-uk]

I've been making some progress with the Cuitzeos at feeding time.

Lacrimosa is a voracious feeder, always has been. She just needs to get a whiff of food and she's out looking for it. I've decided that I want to use food (one of her base instincts) to build up more trust between us. So I want her to be quite clear that it is ME that provides her food, and not the metal tongs. She reacts to the tongs, so I figure I need to use them in a way that the realises that I am attached to them. Previously I'd start pulling away if she worked her way up the tongs sniffing, now I let her sniff up the tongs all the way to my fingers, she seems to know that they aren't food.
I've also started getting her to come up to the bottom of the open doors to receive some of her food. At the moment I'm still having to tong feed her a piece to get her feeding response going, then draw her over to the doors with another piece. Last night she stayed with he head resting on the bottom lip of door for three successive pieces of fish/pinky. I'm hoping with time she'll start coming to the front when she smells food.

The final success last night is that I want them to associate my hands with good things (i.e. food) and decided on a slightly risky strategy. I put my hand in the viv and hled the food on the other side of my hand, so that the easiest way to reach the food was to use my hand as support... there was the risk of a bite here, given Lacrimosa's enthusiastic feeding response, but I did get both her and Vlad to rest on my hand to feed - the food was about 10cm from my hand, so far enough that they shouldn't confuse the scent. I had a hairy moment when I had Vlad resting on my hand and Lacky started "nosing" my little finger, I know this is one of the things Vlad does when he's preparing to eat a piece of food (but Lacky has usually struck at it from several inches away) so I braced myself for a bite that never came.

On the whole Vlad is a more nervous feeder, he prefers feeding near his hide. However, this is a good thing as he had stopped eating before we put him back in with Lacky, so seeing him feeding at all is a good thing. He's miles behind the learning curve that Lacky is on, but I'm sure he'll come around.

Their next feeding should be interesting, I'll be continuing the same sort of reward-based feeding.

[guidofatherof5]

Sounds like a good plan. Keep us posted.

[EasternGirl]

Very risky indeed...if it were Cee Cee, I would have been walking away missing a couple of fingers! And Cee Cee would have a full belly and would be licking her chops...:D

[chris-uk]

Very risky indeed...if it were Cee Cee, I would have been walking away missing a couple of fingers! And Cee Cee would have a full belly and would be licking her chops...:D

Even Lacrimosa isn't big enough to do a lot of damage. The one little bite I got from her a couple of weeks ago was enough to draw two specks (not even enough to call "pin-pricks") of blood. Of course, "next time" when she's in feeding mode she may have a chew before she realises I'm not food.

[aquamentus_11]

just finally took a look at some pics of these. they look awesome.

p.s. lacrimosa is the coolest name i've ever heard

[EasternGirl]

Chris and Char do have some very cool names for their snakes. Of course, I really like Binky because I had a dog named Binky when I was little. Lacrimosa may have to be the name of one of my vampire larp character's in the future...it sounds like an evil vampire queen to me. I think Cee Cee could really do some serious damage with a bite if she wanted to...she's no small snake.

[chris-uk]

Chris and Char do have some very cool names for their snakes. Of course, I really like Binky because I had a dog named Binky when I was little. Lacrimosa may have to be the name of one of my vampire larp character's in the future...it sounds like an evil vampire queen to me. I think Cee Cee could really do some serious damage with a bite if she wanted to...she's no small snake.

She's a bit of a nasty vampire...
"Lacrimosa de Magpyr, AKA Lacci is one of the least personable characters in the entire Discworld (http://wiki.lspace.org/wiki/Discworld) canon. We first see her (in Carpe Jugulum (http://wiki.lspace.org/wiki/Book:Carpe_Jugulum)) just after she's rolled rock onto pictsies (http://wiki.lspace.org/wiki/Pictsies). Delightful. She is castigated more than once for torturing cats, wishing to kill almost everybody and every creature she comes across, and just for being too thin and too pale. " http://wiki.lspace.org/wiki/Lacrimosa_de_Magpyr

[PINJOHN]

She's a bit of a nasty vampire...
"Lacrimosa de Magpyr, AKA Lacci is one of the least personable characters in the entire Discworld (http://wiki.lspace.org/wiki/Discworld) canon. We first see her (in Carpe Jugulum (http://wiki.lspace.org/wiki/Book:Carpe_Jugulum)) just after she's rolled rock onto pictsies (http://wiki.lspace.org/wiki/Pictsies). Delightful. She is castigated more than once for torturing cats, wishing to kill almost everybody and every creature she comes across, and just for being too thin and too pale. " http://wiki.lspace.org/wiki/Lacrimosa_de_Magpyr
just your average mother in law then :D

[chris-uk]

Just a brief update -
I did a full tank clean on Sunday, had everything out for cleaning, removed all substrate, repositioned a few things, and added a shelf in the corner over the warm side. The biggest change was switching the position of their warm log hide and a rock that was on the warm side.
They had a a lengthy explore before settling in some hidey holes.

Monday night, Lacci refused to tong feed for the first time. Vlad was OK and took some from the tongs before deciding he'd had enough. I ended up leaving the food in on a tray, it was gone an hour later.

It's almost as if Lacci was sulking because her house had changed. There was some familiar stuff in there, but the majority of the familiar smells must have gone.

[BUSHSNAKE]

you have 2010s dont you? cuitzeoensis is a shy species but they do grow out of it, i have 6 2010s. Only a couple will eat of tongs but my bigger 2009s i can hand feed.

[chris-uk]

Yep, they're 2010s.
The female has been feeding really well from tongs up until Monday. I was making good progress getting her to come up to the front of the viv to feed from them. I have hand fed her a pinky as well, but her feeding has been quite aggressive lately, so I've not done that for a couple of months.
The male will tong feed, but prefers not to expose too much of himself outside the hide, although last night he was tong feeding with just a plant as cover.

Are any of yours breeding this year Joe? I heard that the 2009 pair that JohnC has (the only other person I know with Cuitzeos in the UK) were looking like breeding after their brumation. I'll be brumating these two in the autumn and seeing how we get on.

Out of interest, what sort of size are yours? Our female is 164g and about 1m long maybe a little longer, the male is 82g and about 75-80cm long (as of their March weigh in).

[BUSHSNAKE]

our 2010s could possibly be sibs, did you get paperwork on yours, mine are 1 x 15. I dont know exactly how big they are...average size for their age. My 2009s were showing breeding interest recently...

[chris-uk]

our 2010s could possibly be sibs, did you get paperwork on yours, mine are 1 x 15. I dont know exactly how big they are...average size for their age. My 2009s were showing breeding interest recently...

My male is tec47 (1 x 15) - so a sib of your 2010s (are all of yours from the same litter?).
My female is tec77 (12 or 13 x 14) so not related to yours.

Are Cuitzeos so difficult to get hold of in the US that you needed to get them shipped back across the Atlantic? I'd assumed that they'd be relatively easy to bring up from Mexico, although the fact that they are so good looking and not so common is probably the proof I need that I assumed wrong.

[BUSHSNAKE]

my 2010s are 1 x 15, my 09 is 1 x 15 and my 09 female is 2 x 3. AS far as i know all mexican flora and fauna are protected from collection. I hope peolpe understand what a privledge it is to own this species.

[BUSHSNAKE]

...only the best is good enough for me chris-uk

[chris-uk]

my 2010s are 1 x 15, my 09 is 1 x 15 and my 09 female is 2 x 3.
A good selection you have there, I hope you have some success breeding them so that others on your side of the pond can be lucky enough to experience them.


AS far as i know all mexican flora and fauna are protected from collection. I hope peolpe understand what a privledge it is to own this species.
My pair will want for nothing, and I know John takes very good care of all his snakes. I didn't realise that they couldn't be collected in Mexico any more, I assume Steve Bol either obtained a permit or collected his WC before the restrictions came into place. That makes looking after the CB Cuitzeos all the more important.

[BUSHSNAKE]

well if you ever breed yours its very possible they may end up in my hands lol

[chris-uk]

well if you ever breed yours its very possible they may end up in my hands lol

You're assuming that there aren't enough people asking for them in the UK, but if you need different bloodlines I'm sure we could swap some over. :) I'm hoping between myself and JohnC that we can establish a good population of them here in the Midlands.

[BUSHSNAKE]

no what im saying is...its a small world

[chris-uk]

Lacci has blued up her eyes, so another shed coming... I'd say she'll shed next Tuesday if she sticks to her usual schedule. It's bad timing because I went to a reptile enthusiasts meeting in Birmingham last night, I had planned to take her but the bluing eyes put paid to that. At the moment she's hiding away in the warm hide while I try to bump the humidity up a bit from the low 40's.

I ended up taking Vlad instead, and whilst he's normally more jumpy he was very well behaved. Unfortunately he didn't win the competition for best animal in the room (he scored several votes though) but I'm pleased to say that the competion was won by a garter... a San Fran.

[EasternGirl]

So I was right on the mark about the vampire name huh? That's interesting. You know Chris...I'm back a couple of posts here...but my snakes absolutely do sulk when I change their enclosure around. They actually pout in the corner and refuse to come out. I was just telling my mother last night how incredibly picky and particular garters are...just changing their enclosure around can completely throw them off for some time, I have noticed. I realized that this whole thing Hermes has been going through, hiding all the time and not being as active as he was, began when I switched everything around in his enclosure and tried to put that platform in for him. Now I am wondering what will happen when I put Hermes and Possum in together. Hermes is very particular about his arrangement and Possum seems to be very particular about his as well. I need to figure out a way to combine their enclosures and keep things set up in a way that they both like...keeping certain hides and plants that Hermes must have and certain plants that Possum must have...it's definitely going to be tricky!

[chris-uk]

Lacci has blued up her eyes, so another shed coming...


Lacci shed ahead of schedule on 11 March, so just a day after her eyes cleared. Previously she's taken 2-3 days from her eyes clearing to shedding. So she was 5 and bit weeks between sheds, looks like she's a growing girl.

Vlad looked like his eyes were bluing up yesterday, and sure enough, today they are definitely clear. He shed a few days before Lacci last time, so it looks like he's on target for 6 and half weeks between sheds.
Even with his eyes blue he's been quite active, and he's started spending time on top of the warm hide (closest he can get to the heat light), so I'm wondering if he's feeling a change of season and thinking about topping up the tan before summer.

Soon Vlad and Lacci will each be gaining some company in the form of T. radix, as long as there isn't a significant difference in size.

[EasternGirl]

Thanks for the update, Chris. Everything sounds like it is going nicely!

[chris-uk]

Yep, going nicely. Lacci just ate this evening, normally I only feed her once at the weekend, but she didn't eat last time when she was about to shed. She has a good appetite. :)

[chris-uk]

I'm missing out...
Last week I'd noticed that both Vlad kept climbing up the plants to get closer to the overhead lamp, I guess he wanted a bit more heat. Meanwhile Lacci was basking a lot on top of the hide directly underneath the lamp as well as trying to get to the light occassionally. So I figured with them sensing Spring they were wanting to warm themselves up a bit more than the 30C of the heatmat. Maybe they prefer overhead heat to belly heat?

Anyway, I built them what I'm calling "The Hammock". The idea being that they were climbing the plant, and hanging off their small platform, and falling down trying to stay up there. So my idea was to build a net hammock, cum cargo net that they could use to support themselves up there. So a couple of metres of string and sisal later and I had rough sort of net two thirds about 30cm above the floor of the viv (and about 15cm from the top of the viv). I'll post photos when I get a chance.

I saw both of them checking it out on Sunday, but as I'm working away this week I've not seen it in use properly. Char tells me that they were both coiled around the new net taking in the heat this afternoon.

I'm assuming that they will thermoregulate themselves and go up there and come back down when they've had enough heat - in the same way as switching from one side of the viv to another. :)

[guidofatherof5]

Are your garter snakes tired of just sitting in their hide or stretched out on the substrate?
Introducing "The Tham Ham". Custom relaxation for your garter snake buddy.
Call in the next 10 minutes and we'll double your order.
That's right, 2 thamnophis hammocks for the incredibly lower price of just $19.95
Operators are standing by. Call 1-800-tham-ham:D

[BUSHSNAKE]

Forget to take your meds this morning?

[EasternGirl]

Ha ha ha! I love it Steve!

[chris-uk]

At $19.95 (plus $7.95 post and packing ;) ) I could probably make a profit. I'll accept orders by PM as well.

[BUSHSNAKE]

Hehe sorry Steve;)

[Char361979]

The "Tham Ham" is a massive hit. Every time I've checked in on the love birds (yep every time my back is turned Vlad has put on the Barry White and popped open the chardonnay... then he notices I'm there and takes off a the speed of lightn while Lacramosa gives ne filthy looks)one or both of them is curled up in it. Laccy was in it when I went to bed last night and was still there in exactly the same possition this morning.

[EasternGirl]

But are they selling on the infomercials??? :D

[chris-uk]

I need to get home and take some photos to get the advertising campaign rolling. On my way home from Scotland at the moment, and a busy weekend ahead. I'm looking forward to seeing the Tham Ham in use.

[Char361979]

Oh and Chris told me last night that he has a better name for the "Tham Ham" he's suggesting the "Thammock"....

[chris-uk]

Oh and Chris told me last night that he has a better name for the "Tham Ham" he's suggesting the "Thammock"....

I was saving the brand name until I'd got the patent in place. :mad: ...

[EasternGirl]

Thammock! Now that is catchy!

[Char361979]

I really am exceptionally proud of my husband.

[Light of Dae]

:mad: I still don't see any pictures!!!! Your slacking lol :rolleyes:

[chris-uk]

I give you one happy Lacrimosa in the Thammock.
4599

She seems to go up there every morning as soon as the lamp comes on, gets a quick warmup, and then gradually moves down away from the light.

[guidofatherof5]

Looking good.

[chris-uk]

4812

Lacrimosa is coming up for a shed. With eyes like these you can see why they got a reputation for being evil in more superstitious times.

[gregmonsta]

It's always accented in darker snakes too. Looking forward to seeing her post-shed ;)

[guidofatherof5]

Lacrimosa is awesome looking, even in blue phase.

[chris-uk]

Lacci shed today while I was out (I think CuitzeoCam was pointing up at the Thammock, so probably nobody saw it).
She's not playing ball with photos this afternoon, I'll try her again later.

[chris-uk]

Lacci and Vlad had their first food fight today. Lacci has always been a good eater, but recently has been a bit off her food.
I found Vlad in the water and Lacci half in a tube when I brought their dinnertime them today. Lacci wasn't really interested, but Vlad was quite happy to take bits of salmon that I dangled over the water. Eventually Lacci relocated to the hide next to the pool, and showed some disinterested interest.
She often comes up to the lower edge of the door to get food, and was checking out a piece of salmon I was offering her at the door. When Vlad snaked up and homed in on that piece, got close and grabbed it from under Lacci's nose, and pulled it down and under water where he ate it.
A few minutes later Lacci was homing in on a another piece of salmon when Vlad caught a whiff of it. Just as Lacci took it and I let go of it Vlad struck at the loose end and ripped away all except the bit Lacci was biting down on, took it into the water bowl and ate it underwater.

Considering that in the past Vlad has tended to let Lacci (who is almost twice his weight) eat first, this is a ballsy change of attitude for the little guy. Interesting to see, and probably not a bad thing as he will be rooming with a male radix next month when I get the new snake room setup.

[guidofatherof5]

Good story Chris. Nice to hear they are both eating.

[chris-uk]

Good story Chris. Nice to hear they are both eating.

These two have both always eaten, it seems that one is always more enthusiastic than the other. And they change between themselves, almost as if they have agreed to always challenge me with having one fussy eater, and swapping just when I think I know what the deal is.

[EasternGirl]

I love that pic of Lacrimosa...so sinister!!! She is a big gorgeous girl! Thanks for sharing the food fight story...must be food fight day because my babies were going at it too.

[johnc79@hotmail.com]

Are you not worried they could mate and be Gravid to young? Ive also read females of some sub species of Eques will kill the males if they do not want to mate. Is it a risk worth taking?

[chris-uk]

Are you not worried they could mate and be Gravid to young? Ive also read females of some sub species of Eques will kill the males if they do not want to mate. Is it a risk worth taking?

It's a concern, but a risk that I've balanced and will continue to take until the radix come out of quarantine. I've not read about females killing males when they aren't interested in mating, that raises my concerns a little more - can you point me at the article?
At the moment I'd assessed that the risk of courting was mitigated by a few factors:
- Lacci is already the same weight/size as gravid wc Cuitzeos in the literature.
- These two are in a viv in front of my desk, so I can see them for most of the day.
- They haven't shown interest in courting for months, so it seems that Lacci isn't receptive at the moment.
- If I do see them courting I'm ready to remove Vlad.
- Other than Vlad snatching food from Lacci yesterday they haven't shown any aggressive behaviour, most of the time they just like to curl up on their basking shelf together.

The reason I have them together at the moment is because both of them, and particularly Vlad, are miserable when they are on their own. When I housed Vlad on his own he stopped eating and just hid away for the 2-3 weeks. So having him with Lacci where he is eating, basking and exploring seems to be a better option than having him starving himself and hiding.

In 4 weeks I will be able to move Lacci in with Adora, and Vlad in with Lipwig. So both will have same-sex radix company. With us having a baby in August I don't plan to let any of our garters breed this year, so it will be next Spring before Vlad and Lacci see each other again, by which time they should both be mature enough for breeding.

[guidofatherof5]

Sounds like a well thought out plan Chris.
Thanks for holding to a quarantine period in the face of housing difficulties.;)

[chris-uk]

Sounds like a well thought out plan Chris.
Thanks for holding to a quarantine period in the face of housing difficulties.;)

Soon housing difficulties will be over, and I'll be able to post some drool-inducing pictures of a nice snake room, rather than having the garters scattered around the house on available surfaces. Instead I'll have more time constraints, but at least Char will be able to handle the snakes more once the pregnancy is over.

[johnc79@hotmail.com]

I will dig the book out later when home. I'm not sure about snakes been miserable , you can't give snakes human emotions. I Only put mine together for a month and there full grown. With the weight you say, I'm sure it does happen in the wild but that does not mean its good for the snake. I'm sure you know there much bigger than other garters so the ideal breeding weight is different . You can not keep an eye on them 24/7. I'm not trying to be funny but having sold them I feel reresponsible that there looked after.

[chris-uk]

I will dig the book out later when home.
Thanks, I'm interested to read anything about Cuitzeos as there's not much written about them (Steve Bol is one of the few people that has written about Cuitzeos).


I'm not sure about snakes been miserable , you can't give snakes human emotions.
I tend to write in a way that people can relate to, I'm not anthropomorphising them, I know that they don't have emotions. When an animal that was eating well, was active and reasonably sociable is moved and then becomes reclusive and stops eating saying that he was miserable in his new surroundings isn't an unreasonable description.


I Only put mine together for a month and there full grown. With the weight you say, I'm sure it does happen in the wild but that does not mean its good for the snake. I'm sure you know there much bigger than other garters so the ideal breeding weight is different .
I was basing the statement about weight on the Connant article on T. eques species where his gravid sample was 1020mm. They're both at the bottom end of the breeding spectrum, and I don't want to see them breed for another year (maybe two), by which time they should be plenty big enough. What happens in the wild is a good guide as to how we should treat our captive animals, natural selection is a powerful mechanism to propagate beneficial traits and remove harmful ones - granted, we have it in our power as their keepers to influence their environment in the most positive way, and that includes breeding them when they are older.


You can not keep an eye on them 24/7.
I can have a pretty good go, between them living right under my nose and having a webcam constantly watching them... ;) But you are right, I can't watch them 24/7.


I'm not trying to be funny but having sold them I feel reresponsible that there looked after.
If I'd not met you I'd think that was a veiled implication that you thought that these two weren't being looked after - I know that's not what you meant though. There's others that could have bought these snakes, taken them away and not cared for them - that I belong to a forum where I tell other members what I'm doing with my snakes means that you know what is happening with these two. They aren't in ideal enclosures right now, but I've made a conscious decision that I'd rather that they were both in a comfortable viv where I can control the temperature, humidity and give them an interesting environment - that's how they seem to be more relaxed, whether it's the species or these individuals they seem to be more active when there is another snake with them.
The minute I see any courting behaviour I'll have one of them in a RUB (as I did when they courted in the Autumn). I take onboard your view about housing this pair separately, if it wasn't for your opinion I wouldn't be separating them in the new snake room.

I think that's enough about my two Cuitzeos for now. How are your pair doing John? Any interesting observations?

[johnc79@hotmail.com]

Thats fair enough, I just worry about them as I think we have the only 2 pairs in UK (as far as I know) and I would feel terrible if something happened to them that could be avoided. Its more the long term affects of giving birth to young, ie stunted growth and shorter lifespan. I'm only going on what more experienced keepers have passed on to me & not personal experience but it does make sense.

Found that book and apologies its T elegans that it talks about males been killed by females.

Mine are doing great, female is definitely the biggest garter I have kept. She seems more edgy and shyer in the past few weeks so its all good signs. I am 80% she is gravid. Should be due in June. The male is so much smaller!

[chris-uk]

I feel quite privileged to to have these Cuitzeos, so I keep a much closer eye on them than any of the others I have. I thought I'd read about someone else that had a pair, but that could be someone who bought the "Cuitzeo" from Blue Lizard, that wasn't actually a Cuitzeo... I certainly think that if your girl has a litter she's going to quadruple the number of this species in the country.
I may well not breed from Lacci for another 2 years, I'll brumate her in the Autumn so that we have the option, but whether I breed anything depends on how much time I think I'll have after this year's human breeding project... Your bloodline may be the only one in the country still for the next few years.

Vlad is maybe half the size of Lacci, I need to have a mass weighing session and get up-to-date weights on all of our garters.

[johnc79@hotmail.com]

The brumation side is different when I asked Steve Bol . Heat lamps on in the day but a lower night time drop. I'm not sure if brumation is important for these . I guess trial and error.

[chris-uk]

The brumation side is different when I asked Steve Bol . Heat lamps on in the day but a lower night time drop. I'm not sure if brumation is important for these . I guess trial and error.

That would make sense given the altitude and climate of Lake Cuitzeo. If they need a lower night time drop I may need to move them into the loft of garage, and manage the temps. You put your Cuitzeos in the loft this winter didn't you? Did you give them daytime heat, or is this something you've learned recently?

[johnc79@hotmail.com]

I did put them in the loft for a couple of weeks but was to cold day and night. So I put them in the spare room. The temps dropped at night but were still sutable in the day time. Now the new snake room is done Iwill have more control on tempreture.

[chris-uk]

I mentioned this in a thread about feeding worms to garters, but worth making the observation that when I offered worms Vlad ate them and Lacci refused (but she was being fussy about fish that feed as well.). Vlad has actually been eating better than Lacci over the last few weeks, she's still eating but Vlad is far more active in hunting the food down when I offer it.
I'm finding that with the lighter days they are both sunning themselves in the Thammock more often.

[guidofatherof5]

Sounds like they are on holiday.:D

[chris-uk]

Every day is a holiday for my slithering little charges. But not such a great holiday as the radixes who check into the Ranch. :)

[guidofatherof5]

You got a great B&B going on there Chris. Both you and Char do a very good job.;)

[chris-uk]

Thought it was time for an update on the Cuitzeos.

Vladimir is shacked up in the new snake room with Lipwig (male radix, about 25% smaller than Vlad). He took his time adjusting after the move, his eating wasn't too bad and the last couple of weeks he's been getting back to normal. He doesn't seem to be out as much as he was before but I am seeing more of him recently.

Lacrimosa is in with Adora (female radix, about 15g heavier than Lacci). Lacci isn't as active as she was when she was living with Vlad in my office, but she's still an aggressive eater and comes out looking for the food when I open the viv nndshe smells fish. For the last couple of feeds she's started coming out of the viv door to get more, which can be quite disconcerting when she's recently struck at the hand I was holding the tongs with - when I'm offering to Adora I'm watching Lacci trying a sneak attack. The two of them seem to be happy curling up together, 'Dora hasn't been eating well so it's going to be interesting to see Lacci copes when she has competition for food.

"Tiddler", as we're calling him for the short term, is doing well. He had his forth shed today, eyecaps and tail intact. He's still eating every 2-3 days, and never eats around his shedding time. He's spending less time hiding, and is getting happier being held. He's still very, very quick and I only handle him sat on the carpet so I can let him drop rather than risking grabbing him too tight.
We also think that he may be female... :)

[guidofatherof5]

Good to hear things are going well.

[chris-uk]

There's intelligence behind those eyes.

That's Lacci's eyes, not Vlad's (although I suspect he's not as dim as he pretends to be). I had a bit of a breakthrough spell with the big girls today. For the last few weeks I've been watching Lacci watching from a safe distance, and gradually getting closer as Adora Belle hasn't been coming up to my hands. I think the turning point was two feeds back when 'Dora started feeding properly after fasting for a while. With Dora taking food it has meant Lacci can't take feeding time for granted. Last night I had some spare salmon, so hand fed it to Lacci.
This evening both were out and about, and Lacci was watching from her tube at the back of the viv as usual. I think Lacci suspects that Dora has found a secret stash of food... Anyway when Dora came up to my hand for the second time Lacci edged up to it as well. Then she backed away and watched as Dora came all the way out of the doors into my hands, but was watching for the secret food stash. When Dora wandered off Lacci decided to slither straight out of the doors into my hands. And continued to do it for the next 20 minutes when I tried to put her back.
So Lacci has learned from watching a radix that my hands are safe and it could be worth investigating. I'll see if she is as amicable tomorrow. Both Cuitzeo and radix are acting like little piggies, they aren't due another feed until the weekend but both are prowling for food when they spot me looking at them.

[guidofatherof5]

Good radix, good radix.

[chris-uk]

Good radix, good radix.

Credit where radix is due.

[reptileparadise]

Thinking about it I have a spair viv I could lend you if that helps?

Just browsing through some old topics and i now remember why i love this hobby so much.... and a great piece of advice AND offering to lend a viv....

I wish more people where this open!

[chris-uk]

I wish more people where this open!

I try to be open about my snakes and share what my observations when I think they might be useful or interesting to others. I've not shared as much recently though, so I'll give another update on the Cuitzeos.

Lacci is shacked up with Adora Belle and Nobby. She's now our largest garter, having passed Adora at the last weigh in - Lacci is 230g now and somewhere around 100cm long. She's still my favourite snake and probably gets spoiled a bit at feeding time. Lacci runs the girls' viv, at feeding time she sends the minions forward to check that I actually do have food, then she comes forward herself and will feed out of my hand. Recently, even without food, she's started coming out to my hands. She's still not as outgoing as Adora or Nobby though.

Vlad has to put up with a really active radix, he's definitely more reclusive than Lacci now, but he's eating pretty much every feed day.

Neither of the Cuitzeos are spending a lot of time in their water bowls anymore. I don't know whether that is a good or bad thing, I kind of miss seeing them in their water for hours on end.

[-MARWOLAETH-]

What about baby C?

[chris-uk]

What about baby C?

Unfortunately he stopped eating in August and I found him dead one morning a week or two after he first refused food. With everything else I had going on at the end of Char's pregnancy I wasn't in a hurry to share the bad news.

I'd tried to keep him hydrated and he did still drink. There were no external signs of any problems, so finding him dead was quite a shock, he hadn't been refusing food for long enough for that to have been a major concern, so I can only guess there was something more going on inside. No lumps or swelling and he was still passing urates. I did consider a necropsy, but was advised that such a small snake would be unlikely to reveal any definitive results.

Not the result I wanted with my first baby snake, it's something I try not to think about too much - I lost 2 checkereds that came from Pinjohn, but "Tiddler" meant a lot to me.

[-MARWOLAETH-]

So sorry to hear it.

[guidofatherof5]

Sorry about your loss Chris. It's tough losing older, more adult snake but losing little scrubs is worse.

[Stefan-A]

Sorry about the loss.

[ProXimuS]

Sorry to hear about the baby.

[Invisible Snake]

Sorry for your loss :(

[chris-uk]

Just a quick update on the Cuitzeos...

Vlad has been on and off his food since end of November, he's eating but missing the odd feed - I'm putting it down to the time of year. The last week or so he's been testing the viv for weaknesses, I've found him behind the polystyrene background twice now.

Lacrimosa is growing well, I weighed her yesterday after seeing her fully stretched. She's around 100cm and weighing in at 380g so I think she's going to be a big girl (Cuitzeos are noted as being a large species). She hasn't missed a single meal in the last 9 months, I like her feeding ethic. She's still coming to the viv doors to feed, but when I've not got food she will still come to the open doors when I show her my empty hand, most of the time she slithers into my hands for a bit of time out, sometimes she checks me to make sure there's no food and turns around.

Overall, they are both still beautiful snakes and I'm glad I'm keeping this species.

[thamneil]

Great update! They seem like great snakes. On my list for sure.

[chris-uk]

Great update! They seem like great snakes. On my list for sure.

I think Scott is selling them at silly cheap prices so add a couple to your order. ;)

[BUSHSNAKE]

I think Scott is selling them at silly cheap prices so add a couple to your order. ;)
more like stupid in the head cheap
I love my cuitzeoensis theyre freeking beautiful.
Mine are much more active at nite, what about yours Chris? Im thinking theyre somewhat nocturnal.

[thamneil]

Low prices are both a blessing and a curse! I'll take it as a blessing for now though. Defiantly going to be a good year for these Mexican snakes!

[chris-uk]

more like stupid in the head cheap
I love my cuitzeoensis theyre freeking beautiful.
Mine are much more active at nite, what about yours Chris? Im thinking theyre somewhat nocturnal.

Mine are more active at night than other species, but I'd say they are more active in the day. I'll often go into the snake room early and find the male climbing in the plants before the heat and lights are on.


Low prices are both a blessing and a curse! I'll take it as a blessing for now though. Defiantly going to be a good year for these Mexican snakes!

Take advantage of the price. I don't understand why you'd breed a rare species and then sell them at the same price as much more common snake, perhaps the logic is to create a market but the low price it discourages other breeders doesn't it? At Scott's prices it would almost be cheaper to import from the US than Holland. lol

Anyway, don't want this thread to turn into one about price - I keep them because they are stunning and unusual garters, and I've grown to love them more because I think they are incredibly intelligent and interesting to watch.

[chris-uk]

These Cuitzeos are aggressive ;)

Lacci just bit me for the second time in 18 months. Maybe that isn't aggressive after all considering most feeds I feed her some of it straight from my fingers and is careful not to touch my fingers.

This afternoon's nip was a nibble on the back of my hand. I was feeding Nobby and Adora more than Lacci and blocking her from getting to the dish of food outside the viv with my hand. I think the nip was a gentle reminder that she was waiting. She's an intelligent girl so she knew she couldn't swallow my hand, she still managed to draw a whole drop of blood.

She's still my favourite.

[chris-uk]

As Vlad did something interesting yesterday I thought it was time for an update.

Vlad stopped eating for a while over winter and lost 15-20g, he seems a bit more fussy now and prefers pinkies over fish. He's currently weighing in at 126g. He's not as outgoing as his radix viv-mate, and last time I got him out he freaked when I got him to the livingroom and musked all over the sofa (leather, so easy to wipe clean). I've decided that he's now a "handle when necessary" snake, not because he's aggressive but because I don't want to stress him. I said he did something interesting yesterday, keep reading - the photos are below.

Laccrimosa on the other hand has not stopped eating, ever. She's the only one of my garters that hasn't refused a meal in the last 12 months. As a result she's put on weight and length, I can never get an accurate length but I know she's over 1m now, and she last weighed in at 376g. She will still cautiously slither up to the open doors and into my hands, so she's one of the first that comes out (saying that all three of the bigger girls are the same, Lacci being the most cautious of the three).


Now photos of Vlad and some opportunistic basking...

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//734/medium/Vlad-baskingOnbackground-18Apr2013.jpg (http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/showphoto.php?photo=11775&title=vlad-basking18-april-2013&cat=734)

And from the side...

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//734/medium/Vlad-baskingOnBackgroundSide-18Apr2013.jpg (http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/showphoto.php?photo=11774&title=vlad-basking18-april-2013&cat=734)

I think he was trying to get behind the backround, not onto it, but once he'd pushed it to an angle where the top was immediately below the lamp he chose to have a bask. The LED light doesn't throw out a lot of heat, but still throws out a bit. When I had ivy suspended from the top of the viv Vlad always liked spending time in the ivy, I had to take that out because he was constantly using it as a route to get behind the background. I'll be adding some more ivy for him when I go through some viv reallocations in the next month.

[guidofatherof5]

Vlad is looking good.

[chris-uk]

Vlad is looking good.

He's better looking than Lacci, I'll have to get some better photos of him.

[guidofatherof5]

Looking forward to those photos.

[chris-uk]

I've discovered that Cuitzeos don't like earth worms. Lacci and Vlad both turn their noses up at them.

[chris-uk]

I got an accurate measurement of Lacrimosa today (she was laid around 3 sides of the water bowl without any wiggles, so I could get an accurate point for her head and tail at the same time). She's now 104cm long and a chunky snake at 407g. I knew she was over 100cm, it was just a case as to how much longer.

She eats like a demon... eating me out of house and home.

[guidofatherof5]

Nice numbers.
Big girl and the photos are where?:D

[chris-uk]

Ask and ye shall receive....


http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//734/medium/Lacci_close-up_while_coiled-_P1000355.jpg (http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/showphoto.php?photo=12024&title=lacrimosatecuitzeoensis&cat=734)

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//734/medium/Lacci_close-up_of_face_-_P1000355.jpg (http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/showphoto.php?photo=12023&title=lacrimosatecuitzeoensis&cat=734)

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//734/medium/Lacci_coiled_round_wrist_-_P1000360.jpg (http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/showphoto.php?photo=12025&title=lacrimosatecuitzeoensis&cat=734)

[guidofatherof5]

Now that's a garter snake. Thanks Chris.

[BUSHSNAKE]

beautiful snake!

[gibble888]

My female infernalis loves to dive deep but the male almost never gets in the water.

[chris-uk]

My female infernalis loves to dive deep but the male almost never gets in the water.

Ah, taking the conversation right back to the first post in the thread :)

My Cuitzeos don't spend much time in the water now. I think the water is where they go when they feel threatened, they'd rather be submerged than hiding under a rock. The only time they've spent much time in water since they got settled has been when I've changed their vivs around substantially. Then they get used to the new place and ignore the water.

[chris-uk]

Today was the day I knew would come one day. Today Lacrimosa delivered a bleeding bite while I was feeding her. Totally a feeding accident, she knows where the food comes from and was lined up on the shelf near the door as I was trying to get fish to Adora who was further back, and Lacci had my finger as it past her head when I took my hand back out of the viv.
She released immediately, and scarpered to the other side of the viv. It bled quite a bit, which makes me wonder how much damage she could do if she chewed.

She's still my favourite and a real sweetie most of the time.

[guidofatherof5]

How's Lacrimosa doing? I hope she's okay.
You are current on your shots aren't you Chris?:D

[gibble888]

Ah, taking the conversation right back to the first post in the thread :)

My Cuitzeos don't spend much time in the water now. I think the water is where they go when they feel threatened, they'd rather be submerged than hiding under a rock. The only time they've spent much time in water since they got settled has been when I've changed their vivs around substantially. Then they get used to the new place and ignore the water. i know thats my bad...i thought i was on the last page when i replied to the first...brain fart!!

[chris-uk]

How's Lacrimosa doing? I hope she's okay.
You are current on your shots aren't you Chris?:D

She's fine. She even got more food before I stopped to wash the bloody finger - when I get bitten I like to let it bleed to flush out any crap that might otherwise enter my bloodstream. A bit of tissue to stop the blood dripping on the carpet is all you need.

[chris-uk]

Interesting experience tonight.


Vlad, my male Cuitzeo, isn't the most outgoing chap, he comes out but tends to dive for cover as soon as his viv is opened. He's one of my "handle when necessary" snakes because it seems to stress him out.

Lacci, my female Cuitzeo, is the opposite, she'll slither out to my hand as soon as I open the viv most times and will happily wind around my wrist and stay out for a while.

I'd cleaned the girls' water and Lacci came out to investigate (and see if I had any food...) so I handled her for 5 minutes or so. I then noticed my male radix was out and about in the viv above the girls, so thought I'd give him a quick check as he's always happy to be held. While I was holding him close to his open viv I noticed Vlad's nose appear from his hide (Vlad is shacked up with Lipwig, the radix) so I put Lipwig back close to the hide and left my hands just inside the viv. Vlad slowly came out of the hide tasting the air towards my hands, and then slithered onto my hands and up my arm as far as my elbow, before turning around and heading back in.
This is unprecedented behaviour for him, and I can only imagine that Lacci had covered my hands with fresh pheromones and that Vlad was feeling like a bit of action. Poor little guy just got to cruise up my arm, not a girl in sight. :)

Just something else that reinforces the production of pheromones in garters, and (following Inga's experience with her San Frans today) also marries up to the principle that Autumn breeding is fairly common place.

[guidofatherof5]

Very interesting. At least he didn't hump your arm.:D

[chris-uk]

Very interesting. At least he didn't hump your arm.:D

No, but Lacci often puts a squeeze on my arm.

[NancyG]

Right? Thank God it is different for humans! I think the population would slowly come to a halt! Lol... What if women dragged men all over the place after sex like that?

Uhhhh isn't that called 'shopping'? ;P

[guidofatherof5]

Uhhhh isn't that called 'shopping'? ;P

Oh, you're going to fit in nicely here:D

[chris-uk]

Uhhhh isn't that called 'shopping'? ;P

In my experience the shopping is a pre-requisite, not a consequence. Have I been meeting the wrong women?

[Char361979]

Oi! Just remember Chris, although I don't post so much anymore I am always watching you and comments might well come back to bite you. Just remember who cooks your dinner.

[guidofatherof5]

Oi! Just remember Chris, although I don't post so much anymore I am always watching you and comments might well come back to bite you. Just remember who cooks your dinner.

Get him Char. His better 9/10th has spoken. Right Chris?:D

[chris-uk]

Dang. Rumbled.