An old dilemma ? pickeringii or ordinoides ?

[WBR]

Folks,
I indicated earlier tonight (in my Welcome Lounge posting) that within my collection I had 6.4 (blue phase) T. s. pickeringi.
Well in truth, I am not quite so sure !!
I acquired the animals as such, but I am beginning to suspect that I have a mix of T.s.p. and T. ordinoides.
I realise that I need to complete some scale counts to be sure, but (as with advancing age comes failing sight !), that is going to have to wait until each of the little beasties next has a shed (and I get myself a very effective magnifying- glass) ! Of course, it will also be beneficial to have the physical evidence of the shed to retain in the individual specimen's records.
I know some of you have already struggled with this problem, so if any of you out there have words of wisdom to impart I am more then ready to receive.
(And, yes, the specimens originated from "Bob" !!),
Cheers,
Brian.

[adamanteus]

so if any of you out there have words of wisdom to impart I am more then ready to receive.


That's not a difficult one Brian. pickeringii (like all the sirtalis) has a mid-body scale count of 19, while ordinoides has only 17.:)

[WBR]

Thanks James,
I am 100% clear on the mid-body scale counts for the 2 species - but I think I will wait to retrieve the next sheds !! It saves wrestling with the little darlings (some of whom are very obviously gravid), and in the interim I'll just segregate any offspring that happen to pop out - and whatever they are today they will still be the same next time they shed.
Have an enjoyable evening.
Cheers,
Brian.

[adamanteus]

Brian, If your T. ordinoides and T. s. pickeringii are gravid, please put me on your preferred customer list! These are both species (sub-species) I want.

I had a small group of T. ordinoides about 15 years ago, which I found amongst a mixed North American shipment in a reptile wholesalers'. Lovely little snakes.

[ssssnakeluvr]

put me on the list too!!!! :D Ordinoides will have small rows of spots along the stripes where the pickeringi will have the larger checker pattern.

[ssssnakeluvr]

pics would help too!! :D

[KITKAT]

I am still confused about my pair from Bob. I know the female is a T s pickeringii, but am not sure about the male... he is a wiggly little beastie, photos have not come out clear either, and when I found a shed today, I was not sure which snake had shed!

Eventually I hope to get some clear pics of the male and post them for help...

But here is what I have so far:

FEMALE

19 scale rows
Body is solid black with very THIN dorsal stripe that encompasses only one row.
Side stripes are very THIN also, with no speckling or scalloped shape at the edges of the stripes.
Stripes are yellowish blue.

MALE

unsure scale count (17?)
Body is solid black with wider dorsal stripe that encompasses the dorsal row and half of the first row on either side of the dorsal row.
Side stripes are wide, with speckling that extends upward towards the sides, making a "scalloped" edge to the stripe.
Stripes are clear blue.

(The male is more colorful and more attractive overall)

[ssssnakeluvr]

sounds like the male is a blue phase ordinoides....pickeringii have very narrow stripes. Are there small spots along the stripes on the male? The ordinoides generally have small spots along the stripes. My adult ordinoides in the pic below has a narrow stripe, but it starts out wide...you can see the small spots along the stripes... hope this helps! :cool:
http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//504/ord_2.jpg

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//504/medium/northwestern_1.jpg

[KITKAT]

Here is my male:

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/medium/ordinoides_male_0407_6.jpg

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/medium/ordinoides_head_1.jpg

Here is the female:

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/medium/looking_glass.jpg

[ssssnakeluvr]

both are pickeringii. ordinoides tend to have a shorter head. you can see the tiny rows of spots on my pics, but on your pics, both have larger checkers, although not real distinct.

[mikm]

Hello KITKAT, IMO ... that male is pickeringii . My male looks exactly like yours. I found Don's ordinoides pics & explanation very helpful, thanks Don.

_ Question for you ... In person does that male display any green ??? At times has he appeared more of a greenish blue and at other times just blue ?? Look closely at his 'blue' side scales for any green coloring particularly around the edges of of those 'sky blue' scales.

Sounds silly I know but my male has and does. I have read an early
field journal wherein pickeringii is described as 'seafoam green'. Interestingly enough when I research that color I find various color pallettes where 'it' is visually depictated as either a soft green or yes, a pastel blue.

This all began for me last weekend when I had a group of friends over for a cookout. While looking right at my male PUGET, someone asked what I had done with the 'green snake'. Five out of five people felt that he was not the same snake as 'this snake' they were now looking at was 'blue'. One last factor was that he had just shed a few days prior.

I intend to try and capture this with pics as I believe it may be attributing to the confusion. I suspect the majority of 'bob's' snakes to be pickeringii and unbeknownst to him, he occasionally scores a few ordinoides within the mix. I suspect the ordinoides color to be a static 'blue'. :cool:

those are my thoughts anyway ... enjoy your day !!!

[mikm]

For example ... both of the following examples from different color palette sources labeled seafoam green ===>

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/seafoam_g_mint.jpg

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/seafoam_g_blue.jpg

I'm just sayin' ... LOL :p

[KITKAT]

Well, I am glad I do not have a male of one and a female of the other!:D

Now I will just add ordinoides to my wish list... :rolleyes:

And my male has never looked even slightly green, IMHO. He is always robin's egg blue... but I rarely, if ever, have him outside in natural light.

[Cazador]

Though I'd post this blue T. ordinoides from Bob in the same thread with Don's normally colored ordinoides for comparison.

As for advise, Brian, I think the only way you're going to be able to do nearly simultaneous scale counts is based on photos. One thing that might help is to verify which scale rows the light blue stripes are on. They should be on rows 2 & 3. Then you can take your picture from above the scale rows and use the top of the blue stripe as "row 3." You know to take the picture in the middle of the snake (1/2 way from head to tail), then zoom in on the picture and count upward, starting at row three to the middle (vertebral) stripe. Just to be safe, I'll mention to include the vertebral strip in your count; double the number, and subtract one.

If you wait till they all shed, I'm sure you'll lose track of which skin belongs to which of your ten snakes. Best wishes,

Rick

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/medium/DSC05997.JPG