anytime girls!!!

[otis lee]

wc albino eastern garter.
http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b318/otis1976/garters/march07076.jpghttp://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b318/otis1976/garters/march07078.jpg[/IMG]
het albino checkered .her 2nd year!hetXhet.
http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b318/otis1976/garters/garters007.jpg
http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b318/otis1976/garters/garters006.jpg

[otis lee]

albino checkered garter.this is her 3rd year!!albinoXhet
http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b318/otis1976/garters/garters008.jpg
http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b318/otis1976/garters/garters011.jpg
http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b318/otis1976/garters/garters014.jpg

[Stefan-A]

This is so exciting. :D

Is that how you normally house them, or is that just where you keep them where they are about to give birth?

[adamanteus]

Looks like you're going to be another one with millions of babies soon! Congratulations.

[Snaky]

Be sure to post some picture's of the outcome;)
Good luck with it :)

[otis lee]

i put them in this to bring them in the house.i do keep a male/babys in them sometimes.they clean fast and i can see in them great.i have a metal stand that holds 6 20gallon long tanks for pairs and trio's.i also like the half tall 10 gallon tanks too.
the albino Xered had 8 1st year,7 the next and i think she will have like 10 this year.i candle light the albinos like you would a egg.
do any of you that breed the albino Xereds have albino's that dont start out as the better feeders.they seem to take a little longer to get started. i have only breed hetXalbino to make albinos.

[otis lee]

the eastern had them at 4 o'clock today!no albinos.
2 or 3 slugs
1 very sm. that opened its mouth a few times but did not move or breath.
the last 1 was dead probly from the pushing.
1 with a sm kink on neck and a sm. left eye.
aaaannnndddd
13 perfect baby hets!!!!some ate worms 2 hours after birth!!!

[abcat1993]

Wow, congrats. What are the chances of not having any albinos with a het (proven?) and an albino?

[KITKAT]

Wow, congrats. What are the chances of not having any albinos with a het (proven?) and an albino?

The genetic symbol for albino is c, and non-albino is C.

Cc is a het

cc is an albino

Cc x cc = 50% (chance of) Cc and 50% (chance of) cc

HOWEVER... I have a current theory that perhaps some of the garters that are identified as albinos, are not albinos. Bear with me...

Scott Felzer, for example, has two strains of "albino". Yet, when one strain is bred to the other, non-albinos are produced.

I assume he has identified his two strains as albino because they have red/pink eyes, as well as lighter body color. However, there is another gene that can make red eyes in some animals (such as mice). This gene is called "Dilute".

In a dilute mouse, the eyes are red, and the coat color is lighter than normal, but the mouse is not white.

Dilute is notated d and non-dilute is notated D.

If a dilute garter exists, and were bred to a non-dilute, the results would be like this:

DD x dd = 100% chance Dd (hets).

However, if a dilute (non-albino) were bred to an albino (non-dilute), the results could look like this:

ccDD x CCdd = CcDd 100% chance

And since only the capitalized letter (dominant trait) is visible in the young, all babies would appear to be "normal", but would all be double het.

(Which is what I suspect is happening to Felzer's two "albino" strains, when bred to each other).

Of course, since ODNR thinks I should not be allowed to ever own a plains garter, even though the source is provable as non-Ohio... I guess I'll never get to experiment to see if I can prove my theory!:mad:

[otis lee]

both parents where WC from the same ky horse barn . i was just hoping the normal male was het.scotts albinos are not compatible,but are true albinos just diff.lines .its like the hypo/ghost morph in ball pythons.

[otis lee]

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b318/otis1976/garters/garters015.jpg
http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b318/otis1976/garters/garters017.jpg
http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b318/otis1976/garters/garters016.jpg
http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b318/otis1976/garters/garters018.jpg

[otis lee]

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b318/otis1976/garters/garters019.jpg
http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b318/otis1976/garters/garters021.jpg
http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b318/otis1976/garters/garters023.jpg
http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b318/otis1976/garters/garters022.jpg

[adamanteus]

Otis, you're a Daddy! Congratulations. how many did she have? Are they all okay? Great photos, lucky you were there at the time. Well done you!

[Stefan-A]

Congratulations, Otis! They look great! :)

[KITKAT]

Amazing photos!

Congrats!:cool:

[Snaky]

Congrats with the babies! How many where it?

[mikm]

CONGRATS to you Otis !!! ... :D Getting the pics is amazing, thanks so much for sharing and yes, how many ??? All normals ???

best of luck

[drache]

congratulations, Otis
so cool you were there to see it
thanks for the pics

[Serpentine99]

Not sure if any of you noticed, but I've made a new album for baby garter pics. Seeing how excited all of you get over the cute things I couldn't resist making an album where people can see all the newborns in one. Feel free to add to it.;)

[Thamnophis]

Well Otis, congratulations!!!

[Odie]

Congratulations, From Oregon, Otis :) They look mighty fine mon ;)

[otis lee]

she had all hets
2 or 3 slugs,
1 sm one that did not make it,think it did not clear its lungs,
the last 1 was a big still born,probly from all the pushing,
aaaaannnnndddddd
13 perfect baby hets,
and 1 more that has a sm kink/bump on its neck and its left eye is smaller.
some ate cut worms 2 hours after birth!!!thanks for all the great replys!!!

[Cazador]

It's about darn time that she popped ;). I bet she feels a LOT better now. Nice work with the camera, too.

Rick

[otis lee]

they all ate worms!!!on monday.

[cornsnakesalive]

HOWEVER... I have a current theory that perhaps some of the garters that are identified as albinos, are not albinos. Bear with me...

Scott Felzer, for example, has two strains of "albino". Yet, when one strain is bred to the other, non-albinos are produced.

I assume he has identified his two strains as albino because they have red/pink eyes, as well as lighter body color. However, there is another gene that can make red eyes in some animals (such as mice). This gene is called "Dilute".

(Which is what I suspect is happening to Felzer's two "albino" strains, when bred to each other).

Of course, since ODNR thinks I should not be allowed to ever own a plains garter, even though the source is provable as non-Ohio... I guess I'll never get to experiment to see if I can prove my theory!:mad:
Hello Thamnophis.com,
I just began looking into Garter morphs due to a Den I found on my property. I also breed Corn Snake Morphs, and we have proven 15 mutant genes at this time, so the genetics of Garters interest me. Much of what we have learned about Corn Snake genes, can be applied to Garters as well.

I found it odd that nobody I emailed had any knowledge of any test breedings between the different lines of Albinos, not even Felzer. I have a different opinion about the reason for the lack of Amels in the litter. It is extremely possible that two different non-compatible lines of Amels were opposite each other. Are any of the Amel Garters compatible, or are they all non-combatable. How about a Schuett and Amel Eastern, which I believe this breeding may be a mix of. Are the Schuett’s compatible with the Amel Easterns. If no test have been done, it could certainly go either way, unless the history of the lines is tied somehow.

In Boas, two different Amel lines have proven to be non-combatable, but both are amels. A Sharp Strain Albino Boa X Kahl Albino Boa breeding will result in Normals het for both Albino genes. In Corns we now have six non-compatible hypos. That is right six, and we have proven them out with test breedings. Breed any two of the six together, even though they are of a hypo phenotype, and you will produce NORMALS.

Another possibility with this litter are poor odds. I once produced 10 Amels out of 11 eggs that hatched from a Het Amel X Same breeding. It is certainly possible to produced 11 Normals out of a Het X Same breeding as well.

Some very interesting eye colors have been popping up in double and triple homo Corns. Eye colors that can be mistaken for Amels eyes, ruby eyes, blue eyes, yellow eyes and so forth. Some double stacked hypo genes have ruby eyes as well, but even the most extreme of the hypos eyes can not be mistaken for an Amels.

I think you guys need to start an Amel Test Breeding Project like we did with the hypos. Our Hypo Test Breeding Project took us from two proven hypos to six in two years. All we had to do, is ship different types of hypos to others that could do testing. Through cooperative efforts, most testing was done in the first year. The only difference I see is that most of the different Amel locals in Garters are also different subspecies, so it may not be knowledge that everybody believes is needed.

How do you know, that some of the Albino Garter snake subspecies genes, are not he result of “Basement Breeders“? Almost all Amel Gophers, and Amel Kings are a result of hybridization. This was done many years ago, when morphs came flying at us almost every year. There are certainly different non-combatable lines of some Amel Kings, but most were created in the 80’s. Amel California King Snakes have two different lines of non-compatible Amel genes, so the compatibility or non-compatibility of any Amel gene in Garters, will not necessarily prove if they are hybrids or not, but it will help to make sure the different lines are kept separate for breeding purposes. Amel Corns and Amel Nelsons are compatible, but they were not the result of hybridization. The probably just had a common ancestor several thousands of year ago.

I really don’t know anything about the origins of the different lines of Amels in Garters, and most have a wild caught story. It is certainly very possible for many wild caught lines of Amels to be discovered due to their breeding habits, but how sound are the wild caught stories. Are they from first hand knowledge that has been passed down. Who were the first to produce a certain Amel subspecies anyway? If you can not answer that question, we really don’t know do we.

Wouldn’t a Garter Snake Registry be NICE!

[snakeman]

Almost all of the w/c albino garters I have known to exist were adults.I have not heard of too many albino babies being caught.I have no idea which eastern strains are compatable.I think there are 5 strains right now.I think the plains garter has 3.I know two are not compatable.The nebraska and iowa.

[cornsnakesalive]

Almost all of the w/c albino garters I have known to exist were adults.I have not heard of too many albino babies being caught.I have no idea which eastern strains are compatable.I think there are 5 strains right now.I think the plains garter has 3.I know two are not compatable.The nebraska and iowa.


I saw that when I read Scott’s site more toughly. The photo of the two different Amels and Snows was interesting. Did one “mask” the other, such as Homo Nebraska, Iowa and Anery look like an Iowa Snow? The Iowa seems more extreme. I think the Nebraska Amel looks like some extreme hypos in other species. I would love to see one in person.

I guess Scott’s email was referring t the Easterns, because he tested out these two. When I read the Christmas write up, I couldn’t tell if they were a different gene, or a more colorful line of Iowa or Nebraska. Which double het for snow female did the line come from, Iowa or Nebraska, or another line?

The Plains Garter group is a great subspecies. There are a lot of genes to combine to make double homo morphs and beyond.

[otis lee]

the albino checkered is giving birth today !!80%albino sofar.i m getting some bad one.i did get pics of them coming out of her and will post pics and #s!!!!!!!!!!!!

[salzar]

hey guys we need to concider mendelism.
first we have to establish that both snakes we in fact albinos, and not just hybrid, if the parents had just a wisp of color in there genes then a hybrid would result,
secontly albino to albino will not always produce an albino.
thirdly a TRUE ALBINO WILL ALWAYS HAVE PINKskin and eyes , if the eyes are not pink but are hazel or a grey golor it is a dilute , or a hybrid dilute. there are some horses that when bred to a overo colored horse and the mare is also a overo with the same resessive gene, then the resulting foal will be BORN DEAD. do not mix colors of snakes with this resessive gene it me have the same bad results.
I will try to find out more info on mendemism
hope this helps. beautiful snake!!!!

[KITKAT]

hey guys we need to concider mendelism.
first we have to establish that both snakes we in fact albinos, and not just hybrid, if the parents had just a wisp of color in there genes then a hybrid would result,
secontly albino to albino will not always produce an albino.
thirdly a TRUE ALBINO WILL ALWAYS HAVE PINKskin and eyes , if the eyes are not pink but are hazel or a grey golor it is a dilute , or a hybrid dilute. there are some horses that when bred to a overo colored horse and the mare is also a overo with the same resessive gene, then the resulting foal will be BORN DEAD. do not mix colors of snakes with this resessive gene it me have the same bad results.
I will try to find out more info on mendemism
hope this helps. beautiful snake!!!!

Sorry, but I disagree. Albino x albino always produces albino. However, there are other reasons for a pink eye than albino, and in those cases, you may have something that APPEARS to be albino but is not.

Secondly, you cannot have "a wisp of color" in there. The albino gene BLOCKS the color, but the color is still there.

Third, yes, there are certain genetic traits that can be lethal, which means when you get two copies of the same gene in the allele (gene pair), then the offspring will be born dead. But albino is not lethal in snakes (nor in many other genera).

[ssssnakeluvr]

albino X albino doesn't always produce albinos..look at my pic of the babies from my albino nebraska...the albino genes have to be on the same allele to produce albinos...both Iowa and Nobraska albino genes are on different alleles so they produce hets for both. here's the pic of the nebraska albino X Iowa christmas albino babies.... :D

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//504/medium/babies.jpg

[CrazyHedgehog]

wow heavy thread,
can anyone with definate knowledge post a thread on what bred with what to get what>????
ie:
Albino X normal = het albino
Albino X het Albino = 50% albino and 50 % normal

how do you get snow?
Lucistic?
aneristic?


:confused:

[abcat1993]

wow heavy thread,
can anyone with definate knowledge post a thread on what bred with what to get what>????
ie:
Albino X normal = het albino
Albino X het Albino = 50% albino and 50 % normal

how do you get snow?
Lucistic?
aneristic?
Leucistic and anerythristic are both separate mutations from each other and from albino. Look up Punnett squares if you don't know what they are already. If you know what traits are recessive, dominant, co-dominant etc. (Are there any others?) then you can find out the likeliness of having certain things and what percent probable it is for something to be het.

[salzar]

quote fromssssnakeluvr

albino X albino doesn't always produce albinos..look at my pic of the babies from my albino nebraska...the albino genes have to be on the same allele to produce albinos...both Iowa and Nobraska albino genes are on different alleles so they produce hets for both. here's the pic of the nebraska albino X Iowa christmas albino babies....



they are hybrid, the wave lenth of the darker back groung coloring will almost always over power the one void of color. its the law...
this is a color thing not a breed thing albinoism accurc in all forms of life , its a lack of pigment not a breed carictoristic..
bye
michelle

[cornsnakesalive]

both parents where WC from the same ky horse barn . i was just hoping the normal male was het.scotts albinos are not compatible,but are true albinos just diff.lines .its like the hypo/ghost morph in ball pythons.
I was drawn away from the significant of this birth, due to the incompatibly of the other breeding. Finding a wild caught from a horse barn in Kentucky, is very significant, but now you have offspring from her, and hopefully, you can recover the gene in the next generation.

We have had a few wild caught females Corns that have been caught and it is much harder to recover the gene, than if she was a he. Many people will breed a wild caught to another mutant gene, to get a start on a double homo morph, but I really like that you used a wild caught male from the same location. If your Amel proves to be reproducible, you will have established a line of Amels from a very specific local. Did you catch the female, or do you know who did? Have you considered what you are going to call you line if it is reproducible? Kentucky Albino, or the county and state, or perhaps Otis Albino. I know it is really too early, but it is something to think about.

In the Corn Snake World, we have a few very knowledgeable people who have written books about the genetics of Corns, but he also wrote one for the genetics of reptiles, called Genetics for Herpers. I would highly recommend the book to everybody who wants to learn genetics the right way. Check out this site: http://cornguide.com/ (http://cornguide.com/)

As will all new genes, the first thing that needs to be done is to reproduce the mutant gene, which Otis is well on his way to accomplish. The second thing to prove is if the gene that is causing this Albino Eastern is the same as the original Amel gene or if it is a new gene located at a different location genetically. The correct term for this type of mutation is amelanistic, or amel for short. Considering the exact local of this Amel Eastern, it doesn’t really matter if it is compatible with any of the other Amel Easterns, but this is information that is very important for future breeding efforts.

From Scott’s site, he list these five Amel Easterns (SCHUETT STRAIN, FLORIDA ALBINO, CARAMEL ALBINO, CLASSIC ALBINO, Kenton County, KY Albino Eastern). Is the Kenton Co., KY Albino referring to this one or is it another? There isn’t only one TRUE Amel Eastern, they all are, except for perhaps the CARAMEL. They are all Amels, but where are the genes that caused them located on the chromosome tree? If they are all located at different locations, then they are all independent genes, that can only be reproduced if both parents carry the same gene, either as het of homo.
Usually the first one discovered is called the “Albino” Eastern, or in this case perhaps the Classic Albino, and any new Amel Easterns that are discovered are either compatible with the Classic Albino, and have different local info, or they are a new gene themselves. As they get tested, they will be given new names to keep track of them and usually a letter is assigned to them to help for example, we have these proven hypo gene in Corns. Hypo (The original) Type A, Sunkissed, Type B, Lava, Type C, Ultra, Type D, Christmas, Type E, and Dilute, Type D. They are all hypomelanistic, but all very different genes. This is important information to pass down with each line, because if the different Amel Easterns are different genes, then it is possible to breed a Amel Classic X Schuett and produce NORMALS het for Albino and Schuett, which would not usually be the goal of most breeders. Normally, it doesn’t make since to mix two different genes that cause Amels, especially if they are of the same phenotype. It would be nearly impossible to tell which is which in the next generation, and even litter mates Amel, could be incompatible due to misidentification.

To test out each line, you have to mix the different Amel genes together, but the information gained is well worth the mixing in one litter. The knowledge gained, will help to prevent Amel X Amel breeding in the future that produce Normals, or worse, Snow X Snow breedings that produce Anery double hets. It is even possible to breed Snow X Snow and produce Normals if the Amel genes are incompatible as well as the Anery genes, which there are also several of.

There are a couple “Albino” Garters, that look to me to be extreme hypos such as the Caramels for example. They could be alleles with one of the Amels, but generally they are not. Believe it or not, genetics can become even more confusing when genes are discovered that are alleles, but different phenotypes. We have proven out two pairs of genes like these in Corns. They are different genes but when combined, they produce a mutant phenotype. In Corns, Amel and Ultra are alleles. One is an amel and the other a hypo. When combined, they are co-dominant and produce an in-between phenotype. Our Striped and Motley genes are also alleles, but in this case Motley is dominant over Striped a Motley phenotype is produced.

It may be time to start some testing with the different Amel Easterns, so we can learn if some of them are caused by the same gene, even though they are from different locals, or if they are actually a newly discovered gene. New genes are very significant, where as a Wild Caught from a different local that is caused by one of the previously discovered amel genes, is still significant because it removes any hybrid questions, but they may not actually be a new gene, but one of the previously discovered Amels.

[cornsnakesalive]

hey guys we need to concider mendelism.
first we have to establish that both snakes we in fact albinos, and not just hybrid, if the parents had just a wisp of color in there genes then a hybrid would result,
secontly albino to albino will not always produce an albino.
thirdly a TRUE ALBINO WILL ALWAYS HAVE PINKskin and eyes , if the eyes are not pink but are hazel or a grey golor it is a dilute , or a hybrid dilute. there are some horses that when bred to a overo colored horse and the mare is also a overo with the same resessive gene, then the resulting foal will be BORN DEAD. do not mix colors of snakes with this resessive gene it me have the same bad results.
I will try to find out more info on mendemism
hope this helps. beautiful snake!!!!

I do not completely agree with most of this statement. Hybrids are the mixing of different subspecies, such as an Amel Eastern X San Francisco. I think most people would definitely consider this a hybrid breeding. The next generation from this type of breeding, would produce an Amel that is homo for “Amel Eastern“, and some of them would be more SF like. These offspring could be bred back to a SF, and eventually an Amel SF could be produced, but they would by hybrids between the Easterns and SF. This is what I was talking about, that Basement Breeders have been doing with all species of snakes for 30 years.

If we breed an Amel Red Sided X Anery Red Sided, then we will eventually be able to produce Snow Red Sides, that are not hybrids. The same is true if we breed an Amel Eastern or any other local of Amel, X Hypo from the same subspecies. Some of the so called Amels such as the Nebraskas, have a “wisp” of color” when compare to the Iowas, but since they are from the same subspecies a breeding between the two that produces NORMALS is not a hybrid breeding, just a breeding between two incompatible genes. The fact that they come from different states means nothing because the are from the same subspecies. Their names will keep them separate now that they have proven to be incapable.

If you have been to a Snake show, you know how many different types of people are interested in keeping snakes. Some do not have any problem creating a new “Amel” the hybrid way, and sell them as pure stock, because pure is better right? and Hybrids are dirty nasty creatures that aren’t worth a dime, NOT! It is very unfortunate that this way of thinking is prevalent which is the cause of most basement type breedings instead of Hybrid info being passed on. This info may never be discovered and gets lost in time. There seems to be a lot more Amels subspecies of Garters than you would expect, so are some of them actually Amel Checkered hybrids? I bet some of them are, but then others such as Otis’s, wild caught Amel are most likely new genes and not hybrids. Considering the micro climates that some locals of Garters live in, it is very possible that may of the different locals of Amels are in fact different genes and not created by hybridization. It all comes down to indisputable statements of fact. Otis statements are sound and nobody disputes them, but how sound are statements we see that state a line comes from “Wild Caught Stock”, with no specifies that happened 20 year ago? Where are the new Amels from in-breeding in captivity? There definitely should have been some genes discovered this way, but they are all listed as coming from wild caught stock.

The hybrid debate is always split, just like Dems and Reps. Is there anything wrong with creating new morphs by hybridization? I personally do not think so, as long as this info is passed on. For some reason, hybrids are considered superior to pure strains in most other breeding programs, but in the Snake World, hybrid is a dirty word. I mean, come on, wouldn’t it be cool if there were Amel SF or Amel Puget Sounds? To some, this is treason, but most purest rarely only breed local specific subspecies of the NORMAL phase. Almost all purest want their cake and eat it too. They love the mutant genes, but also want pure Garters. This is very possible with some lines, but in time, this becomes less and less important, and not likely to be the case.

I can see both sides of the issue. If you want Pure Garters that are also a mutant, then here is one right here with very specific local data. If you want Snow Red Sideds, then you can make them, but what about Easterns that are from Florida compared to the ones from Canada. Even though they are the same subspecies, is this what the purest really are wanting? I would think a purest would be more local specific, than this.

There are certainly “FATAL” genes that have been discovered in other animals like the Overo example. I bred donkeys too, and spot to spot breedings are fatal if double homos are produced, exactly like the Overos. Since the Spot gene is dominant, it only takes one copy to produce a Spotted Donkey, so het Spots are what we see. In Corns we have identified a recessive gene that causes Star Gazing. If you bred two hets together, 1 in 4 will have this fatal condition.

The mixing of recessive genes in snakes has not resulted in producing offspring with fatal conditions, except for a few rare circumstances. My main interest breeding snakes is trying to produce a new mutant gene by combining different genes, such as Amel and Anery will make Snows. This has been done for many years, with almost all different species of snakes and very few fatal genes have been discovered. The mixing of genes is not the cause of fatal genes, but this is how they get discovered, just like Amels. If there are no fatal recessive genes in a line, then they can not be matched up from thin air by in-breeding. They either exist in a line, or they do not.

Eye color is certainly a good indication of different genes. Most hypos have normal eyes, but the more extreme ones can have ruby eyes that can be mistaken for Amels. When you start stacking genes, such as Caramel Garter X Anery Garter, it can effect the eye color as well in double homo Garters. Dilutes are similar to Hypos, but not interchangeable. Hypos usually only reduce the melanin in Snakes, but Dilutes can have an effect on all of the colors. Dilutes are more like mixing white paint with other colors. Dilutes reduce the shade of all of the colors and change black to a bluish color, while most hypos just reduce the intensity of black coloration.


Hybrids are the mixing of different subspecies not the mixing of incapable genes from the same subspecies. From Scott’s site, there are seven potentially different mutant genes listed as Easterns plus the five Amels. Any of them can be combine to produce pure Easterns. Problems can occur if we start calling different combos by the same name. For example, Scott has Snow Easterns listed, that are from an Amel X Mel breeding. This is not the traditional genes that are called “Snows” in all other species of snakes. Snows are generally a combo of Amel and Anery. What will happen when an Anery Eastern is discovered and a true Snow Eastern is produced? A Snow Eastern (Amel Mel) bred to a potential “Snow” Eastern (Amel Anery) would not result in Snow offspring but Amels het Anery and Mel.

[salzar]

wow heavy thread is right, man oh man this is fun ..
heee
bye
michelle