Post Compaction Advice

[guidofatherof5]

Since the passing of my girl Honda I have been thinking about what I could have done to catch any problems caused by the fur impaction she had.
After removing the impaction she went off food for 7 days but then started eating again. She seemed to be hungrier then normal but I equated that to be off food due to impaction.
Her feces were normal again but her vent was still a little dirty.
This is the first time I have had to deal with post-impaction and wonder if there is some advice anyone can add to my "what to do" thoughts.

[kibakiba]

I'm not knowledgeable in this area, but perhaps soaking in warm water every day for a week and no food to make sure that every bit of impaction is gone.

[Mommy2many]

With people we have the following concerns, besides not removing all of the impaction:

*Can cause tissue to become damaged, ulcerated, or even necrotic.*

Perhaps this was a contributing factor to her death.

[guidofatherof5]

I'm not knowledgeable in this area, but perhaps soaking in warm water every day for a week and no food to make sure that every bit of impaction is gone.

Good idea Chantel.
She was off food for a week.
I let her eat when she was ready hoping that her body had told her to start eating again and the time was right for that.

[guidofatherof5]

With people we have the following concerns, besides not removing all of the impaction:

*Can cause tissue to become damaged, ulcerated, or even necrotic.*

Perhaps this was a contributing factor to her death.

That is what I think happened to her. Her gut went septic.
I had no idea how old she was also. Old age may have contributed to this whole situation.
I had two wonderful years with her.

[kibakiba]

Well, I meant another week after that. Or perhaps a small amount of liquidy food to soften.

[mb90078]

You mentioned that she might be pretty old, and it got me to thinking cause-effect. Maybe, that she was old, caused some sort of malfunction in the digestion process that lead to the impaction in the first place? Maybe the impaction was a symptom of a larger problem, rather than the problem itself?

[chris-uk]

To be honest, I don't have experience of bowel obstruction in snakes, but if it broadly equates impaction in other animals and people I don't think there is anything you didn't do that would have helped.

I think Le Ann's point about the damaged intestines is most significant. If the impaction caused tissue damage it was likely to be a matter of time - either it would go septic, perforate, or just interupt the digestive tract enough to prevent proper absorption of food. As far as I'm aware the only course of treatment for damage to the bowel is surgery.

In humans you're talking about an enema to lubricate and soften the impaction, then "digital manipulation" to break it down into smaller pieces. I don't know about giving a garter an enema (I'd expect to be bitten if I tried), and you managed to massage the impaction out, so I think it was just too much damage to an old snake.

[guidofatherof5]

Well put Chris. Thanks.

[ConcinusMan]

This is one of the reasons I don't feed garters hairy mice. While there very well could have been something else going on that caused her to be more susceptible to impaction, hair just doesn't digest so it can "dam up" easily, where other food items could likely pass.

[GarField000]

Maybe the impaction was a symptom of a larger problem, rather than the problem itself?

Good point I think.

A snake should be able to digist a mouse ... even with hair.
Is the internal system so different from garters and cornsnakes?
Because cornsnakes only eat mouse or rats and never had a problem with them.

[ConcinusMan]

Wrong. They don't digest the hair, claws, etc (anything made of keratin). Neither do many snakes that are rodent specialists but I believe they do have special adaptations and better at passing the fur. Regardless, garter snakes are generally not adapted to an all-rodent diet, and especially not adapted to eating hairy adult rodents.

It stands to reason that a diet heavy in hairy adult rodents just wouldn't happen in the wild and so there are no adaptations for dealing with the undigested hair. Furthermore, any partial obstruction, infection, swelling, etc. that is likely to allow the passing of completely digested soft tissue is very likely to cause the hair to get caught up at that spot and start backing up whereas something like worms, fish, hairless rodents wouldn't get caught up.

I guess the fact that the main blockage was hair isn't enough to convince anyone that they shouldn't feed a lot of hair rodents and everytime I mention it, I get the corn snake/BP, etc. argument. It doesn't apply. They aren't garters. Those are snakes that naturally eat a lot of rodents but even they are not completely immune to the problem: SAReptiles • View topic - Reticulated Python with food blockage (http://www.sareptiles.co.za/forum/viewtopic.php?f=129&t=20445)

Why not just avoid giving your garters anything that they cannot digest if you don't have to? (hair) Is that so unreasonable? Mice are easy to "skin" while they're frozen.

[GarField000]

You don't have to be sarcastic. Not everybody knows everything.
I was only asking because I don't know.
Else I would made a different comment.

[RedSidedSPR]

He didn't mean anything by it. He comes accross sarcastic sometimes, but that's just who he is. I do it all the time in person.

I've never heard of skinning a mouse! Weird. But whatever works...

[kibakiba]

He wasn't being sarcastic, he has informing you. I know for a fact he didn't mean anything rude by it. I have mistaken his posts as being rude and sarcastic, but he was merely stating a fact.

[RedSidedSPR]

Exactly. Me too. To be honest I didn't even read his whole post, I was in a hurry.:rolleyes:

[ConcinusMan]

I appreciate the support guys but be careful what you call a "fact". I think pretty much the only thing I said that should be taken as fact, is that no snake can digest hair. Or nails, claws, horns, etc.

But it does just so happen I didn't mean to sound rude and no sarcasm was intended. My apologies to Garfield000.

It just stands to reason that you should avoid letting them swallow hair (even rodent hair) like you avoid substrate. And both should be avoided for the same reason. They do not digest and can block the digestive system.


You might say, "but my snake eats rodents all the time and doesn't have any problems" Well how do you really know? Almost can't know until it becomes a serious problem. It's like saying "I've been eating greasy, salty food for 40 years and I've never had any problems" while all the while your arteries are getting clogged. You won't know there's a problem until you have a fatal, or nearly fatal heart attack.

You might be surprised at how much undigested hair is sitting in the guts of your snakes (any snake that eats hairy rodents) just waiting for the right conditions, or to back up far enough to not allow anything to pass.

Normally, a snake might not even live long enough in the wild for the hair buildup to be a problem. Also, garters get a lot more exercise in the wild and eat such a wide variety of foods. A hairy adult rodent, that a garter can actually eat, is a rare thing in the wild. Remember they have no way to kill one.

[kibakiba]

I never said that it was a fact, I said you often sound sarcastic and rude when you state a fact. I didn't mean that you were just stating a completely true fact.

[RedSidedSPR]

I know for a fact he didn't mean anything rude by it..


I knew that hair was that dangerous. I knew that garters weren't exactly made for adult mice, and that it can cause problems, but not like that. Good to know.

[GarField000]

... everytime I mention it, I get the corn snake/BP, etc. argument. It doesn't apply.

Hmmm. I think I overreacted in this. My apologies.
It was this sentence. I thought you ... argh, never mind.
Maybe it's smart for me to just shut up and read thing 5 times before I respond.

Sorry ConcinnusMan

[GarField000]

I saw a documentary ones where they cut open a died anaconda. They found birdbeak's and more stuff that didn't digest.

[ConcinusMan]

Yeah, beaks too. They don't digest.

[kimbosaur]

Those are snakes that naturally eat a lot of rodents but even they are not completely immune to the problem: SAReptiles • View topic - Reticulated Python with food blockage (http://www.sareptiles.co.za/forum/viewtopic.php?f=129&t=20445)


That's how you know you love your snake - when you're willing to grease up your finger and stick it up its butthole to dig out its dried up poop.

Sorry, I had to.

Really though, I can't believe how much he got out! Crazy.

[Invisible Snake]

Anyone have post compaction advice on a baby snake that ingested a significant amount of carefresh for its size? I have placed the said animal in qurantine for close observation.

[Eight]

I hadn't really thought about the issues of hair in the digestive tract before this thread. I knew hair didn't digest, and I often see it in the faeces of my snakes that eat an all rodent diet and just assumed that in a healthy animal it just passes through. It's interesting to think of their diets in the wild, and as mentioned above garters have no means to kill rodents. I haven't seen a garter constrict yet anyhow.

As for the small garter with the care fresh, could you try bathing it in warm water to encourage it to defecate and see if it passes it?

[Light of Dae]

Warm water baths. Did he just ingest it? or has it past already? Either way some long warm water baths and some time in a warm shed box. Avoid food for a while, and then only feed easy to digest stuff like worms or fish fillet.

I'm not expert but I cannot see any of these things hurting. I believe keeping them warm is good, heat heals. Moister helps poop.

Best of luck.

[guidofatherof5]

Allow access to plenty of water and watery food(worms) Keep that digestive tract as moist as possible.
Warm water soaking can stimulate bowel movements.
Do you see signs of a blockage?

[Light of Dae]

... Wonder if you could inject(yes with a needle) some safe oil like ... vegetable or canola oil into a worm and that would REALLY help lube him from the inside. Any thoughts on that? I'd say maybe castor oil for babies when they get constipated?

Just a thought that came to mind.

[guidofatherof5]

A good thought at that. I can't see where it would be a problem.

[ConcinusMan]

If you use anything, it should be mineral oil. It has a better chance of passing right through and lubing the problem area. Mineral oil is a very light, clean byproduct of petroleum. In fact it's sometimes called liquid petroleum or paraffin oil. Vegetable fats may be absorbed and metabolized before they reach the obstruction. BTW "canola" oil is vegetable oil. As are soybean, corn, olive, sunflower, coconut. I suppose that any oil from plants which remains liquid at room temperature can be loosely referred to as "vegetable" oil. Vegetable fats that turn solid at room temp are commonly referred to as "shortening"

I still think this may be a case of confusion over what is the cause, and what is the effect. A snake that has a bowel injury, irritation, or infection, is going to be highly prone to the formation of an obstruction. In fact, the obstruction can be a result of the digestive system or bowel not doing its job because it can't. Because of an infection or injury.

[ProXimuS]

I hadn't really thought about the issues of hair in the digestive tract before this thread. I knew hair didn't digest, and I often see it in the faeces of my snakes that eat an all rodent diet and just assumed that in a healthy animal it just passes through. It's interesting to think of their diets in the wild, and as mentioned above garters have no means to kill rodents. I haven't seen a garter constrict yet anyhow.

As for the small garter with the care fresh, could you try bathing it in warm water to encourage it to defecate and see if it passes it?

I don't think garters generally constrict anything.....But then again, most garters people keep are fed already dead meals, and that's mostly what I hear about. I've never heard of them doing it....But I could be incorrect.

[kibakiba]

They have the mild venom, but all Ive seen it do is slow down the worms they eat. Most garters don't eat many mice in the wild... They do eat them, but I'm pretty sure they just grab on and swallow it. Someone on the forum had a garter grab onto a food item and coil its body around it really fast. The search feature is quite underrated, I'm sure there are threads about those things ;)

Also, do not use castor oil on snakes. They aren't humans and they don't work the same. Besides, castor oil causes bad cramping. Its just as bad as taking a few laxative pills. And I'm speaking from my experience and a lot of family members and friends too.

[Stefan-A]

Someone on the forum had a garter grab onto a food item and coil its body around it really fast. The search feature is quite underrated, I'm sure there are threads about those things ;)
I've seen that once.

And here's a picture user and former moderator Cazador posted (IIRC) years before that:

http://koti.mbnet.fi/thamnoph/photos/snakes2012/trivia/Tevagrans_constricting.jpg

And here's an abstract and preview of an article about it. I happen to have the full one, somewhere.
JSTOR: An Error Occurred Setting Your User Cookie (http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/1565963?uid=3737976&uid=2&uid=4&sid=21101142732237)

[Light of Dae]

my female eastern flame/ery grabs her food n flips around doing 'death rolls' and swinging it everywhere then sometimes curls around it... not really coiling but half way.

[Steveo]

I only had a vagrans for a few months but she would sometimes curl around her food before eating it. I didn't really think of it as constricting behavior because she was not even as strong as my smaller constrictors.

[ConcinusMan]

A lot of variables come into play with feeding behavior. Even food preference can have a genetic link. Then there's the availability of specific prey items, which will vary from location to location, specific local adaptations, etc. To say garters do not constrict is too general. I'm sure that such behavior would develop in a population that relies heavily on rodent prey. Even though concinnus' I've kept do not rely heavily on rodents where I find them, they will eat them given the opportunity, and I have seen them pin dead rat pinkies against the glass while they eat them. Presumably to assist with swallowing though. I've never personally seen them coil around prey, but maybe a different garter, from a different place, that relies heavily on rodents would develop constriction behavior over generations. Then when you use vagrans as an example, well, one of the first vagrans I found in WA this year vomited up a full grown mouse when I got it home. If that mouse was alive when the snake attacked it, there had to have been a struggle and the snake had to subdue the mouse somehow. I get the overall impresson that vagrans are more apt to be rodent eaters in the first place.

But lets make no mistake. Any prey item that leaves wads of undigested material is more likely to cause an impaction than say, worms and fish. Let me rephrase. Not "cause" an impaction, but rather it provides the necessary solid undigested material for a blockage to consist of.

[ProXimuS]

To say garters do not constrict is too general. .

I wasn't trying to say they flat out don't do it, I was just mentioning I don't think it's super common behaviour, so don't get your hopes up, basically:p I know of course every snake(or any person/animal) is it's own indivual, and there are many variables that could come into play.

[ConcinusMan]

I wasn't trying to say they flat out don't do it

I didn't necessarily mean you.;)

[Invisible Snake]

Thank you everyone for your input! I take everyone out and place them in a separate bin during feeding with the exception of this particular baby who will not eat if she is outside of her enclosure. So what happened was I was placing some live feeder fish in her water dish and a single drop of water from the fish landed on a piece of carefresh and the baby went into feeding mode and ate the carefresh. By the time I saw this there was very little I could do and as she swallowed their was a noticeable lump on her. I placed her in quarantine with newspaper bedding, gave her lukewarm soakings and only fed her live fish. Suffice to say she managed to pass the carefresh, now my only concern is if there was any internal damage done.

[guidofatherof5]

I doubt there is any damage. Care fresh is a soft substrate.

[jaleely]

I'm already a worried snake-mama. I have seen the hair in feces of my all of my snakes, and i have 7 different species (ball, garter, boa, corn, hognose, kenyan, carpet). I have to say i was under the general impression that ball pythons did digest the whole prey item, however. But, i *have* seen the hair in the poo, so it can't be denied.

Garters eat mostly fish.
One hognose has taken to the fish, as well. Little brat bit me because he wanted fish *lol*

[EasternGirl]

You know...I've been going over this post and while I do not have any experience with obstructions in snakes...I do have experience with blockages in humans. I used to take a medication that caused me to get blockages. Sorry to be detailed here...but I wonder if it can shed any insight. I would not be able to go to the bathroom for days, then I would be in a lot of pain...and like Honda...I would become extremely hungry..which would cause the blockage to become worse. Then I would start vomiting violently. I would end up in the hospital on IV fluids until the blockage worked itself out on it's own. Surgery would be necessary if the blockage would not pass. I am wondering if all of these signs would be something to watch for in garters. We have already discussed the snake not being able to defecate...I would think that you could also watch for a surge in hunger and vomiting. Hope this helps.

[ConcinusMan]

i was under the general impression that ball pythons did digest the whole prey item, however. But, i *have* seen the hair in the poo, so it can't be denied.

They don't digest it. No snake does. It's just that some snakes are "designed" in such a way that they collect and then pass loads of undigested material without any major issues. They're "built" for dealing with it. (They have the physical attributes necessary) Garters, generally speaking, are not.

[Stefan-A]

It's just that some snakes are "designed" in such a way that they collect and then pass loads of undigested material without any major issues. They're "built" for dealing with it. (They have the physical attributes necessary)
What way? Which attributes?

[ConcinusMan]

Nevermind. I was obviously mistaken. They're exactly the same.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/4d/Ball_python_lucy.JPG/220px-Ball_python_lucy.JPGhttp://sensationalserpents.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/11/western_ribbon_snake.jpg

[Stefan-A]

Wow, what a convincing argument!

[ConcinusMan]

Bad argument or not, I still say it's a bad idea to constantly shovel hair covered rodents (exclusively) into a garter. That's just tempting fate. I take it a step further, and avoid giving them hair at all. Besides, most garters I've had will instantly drop a hair covered mouse but will gladly take naked ones.

A partial blockage, injury, etc. alone isn't the problem, but introduce wads of undigested hair and you got yourself an issue.

[Stefan-A]

Bad argument or not, I still say it's a bad idea to constantly shovel hair covered rodents (exclusively) into a garter. That's just tempting fate.
Not interested in superstitions.

[ConcinusMan]

It's not a superstition that rodent hair does not digest and must somehow pass out of the snake.

[Stefan-A]

It's not a superstition that rodent hair does not digest and must somehow pass out of the snake.
That's not what the post was about, and you know it. Are you perhaps suggesting that snakes that aren't shaped like ball pythons don't have cloacas?

[ConcinusMan]

Apparently I don't know what you thought it was about.

[Stefan-A]

I don't know what it was about.
Fixed it for you.

[Invisible Snake]

Lol. On another note I saw rodentpro has started selling hairless adult mice.

[ConcinusMan]

Fixed it for you.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/SviOk-7MqCUOydzo3QUrWU2pw0CMdv9NEyZWoKfg_q-QBAkiRBrPv9vMG1hlU1TsGQhOt_sIlGxAj4lqteFg8HttBzQj6 BFuf8nNKHhTvNjs-c1Mog

[ConcinusMan]

Lol. On another note I saw rodentpro has started selling hairless adult mice.

I thought they did all along.

[Stefan-A]

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/SviOk-7MqCUOydzo3QUrWU2pw0CMdv9NEyZWoKfg_q-QBAkiRBrPv9vMG1hlU1TsGQhOt_sIlGxAj4lqteFg8HttBzQj6 BFuf8nNKHhTvNjs-c1Mog
http://koti.mbnet.fi/thamnoph/photos/garbage/hole.jpg

[ConcinusMan]

LMAO :D. Wait...:mad: