After three meals, I am puzzled

[Serpico]

My couple of garters has been with us for three weeks, now, and I waited some days before giving them their first meal; I was hunting for nightcrawlers, both because you people advice on that, and also because I did remember my first couple, long time ago, mostly ate those worms, and some beef meat cut in stripe, from time to time.

So, two weeks ago, I presented Mila and Shiro with some small stripes of salmon. The male gobbled one piece istantly, but the female was reluctant, so I made a mistake: i left about 10 small pieces of salmon on a dish, and went away. Fifteen minutes later, the salmon chunks were no more, and a distintive bulge presented on the male's belly. The female did not show much, but I could be wrong here. So, I presume he ate almost all of the salmon, and she ate "maybe" one piece.

One week ago, a bit less than a week, actually, I came on with trout, this time.
He ate one piece only, she ate the rest, seven pieces. I noticed that he was not going at it with the same gusto reserved for salmon.

Today I arrived home with some small fish..latin name is Atherina boyeri, and I heated them for 5 minutes at a bit less than 100° just in case.....
Well, she gobbled 2 big ones (next time, pictures), he simply ignored them.
And I took pain taking the female out of the viv for one hour, and left the male inside with his two fish...but no joy, they were found there, untouched.

Do I have to worry, or I'll go back to salmon asap? To my knowledge, the male's last good meal has been about 15 days ago.....I know they can stay without food for longer time..but....

Thanks for any advice, hugs to all!

Pg

PS the fish were taken by the female directly from my hand!!!

[katach]

He could be getting ready to brumate. It's that time of the year.

[jitami]

I would offer him some salmon when you can. Basically, I offer my guys a meal that they have eaten in the past. If they don't eat it I don't worry about it, but since you don't know yet whether he's not interested in any food or simply doesn't like what's being offered I would try to get him something you know he'll eat (salmon) and see how it goes. You can always freeze the remainder for later.

boy, that's a run on sentence. Hope you understand what I mean.

[guidofatherof5]

Do a salmon mix(with other food items). Mostly salmon.
This way he will acquire some of the new taste and eventually come to accept it as another food item.
Just an idea.;)

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

Every fish is different and has a unique scent. The snakes pick up on this and not all snakes will eat all types of fish, or may have to be persuaded to do so.

[Serpico]

Thanks folks.
The mixing which could work as scenting and conditioning in one strike only crossed my mind.
Next time in the market I'll get some salmon, trout and Atherina boyeri (latterino, in italian)..

((The latter ones is fantastic, when deep fried, I know! :D ))

Regarding brumation, I am not sure, the temperatures here in Rome are still quite high. At night the minimum goes down to 19C° (66 F), and the max is up to 30C (86F)....what is supposed to be the brumation temperature?

And I have noticed that while at 3 am the infra red lamp goes on, to raise the viv temperature a bit, and in the morning I always find them in the "cold" side of the viv itself, NOT under the lamp.

/me waves a big thanks to all!

Pg

[Serpico]

Now, I am worried.
I gave them salmon mixed with trout, and while she gobbled three pieces, he steadily refused all, both fish, given with long handle; I left some fish lumps alone, and they are still untouched....
He is fast, alert, tongue flicking, curious like every thamnophis, but he refuses food and he spends his time without being very active, at least when I see them.
Ah, and he is not starting a shed. And the temperatures outside exclude a brumation....I think.

What do I do?

Hugs
Pg

[Mrs N1ntndo]

my snakes dont care for salmon so they actully refuse that for the most part. Have you tried Tilapia. My Eastern garters love it . I give a piece of worm with a little bit of the scent of tilapia on it and then som fish. they eat a mixture but some mainly like the worms and dont eat much of the fish. I dont mix mix them together. Have you thought that maybe they are liking the food your giving them. Just asking.

[Serpico]

As weird it may sound, I have not found a recognizable name in italian for the fish Tilapia, so I do not know if I could even offer it to them....

I may go on and on offering other kinds of fish, I guess....I still have shark, swordfish...

My problem is that in Rome nightcrawlers are not available, everybody sells red wrigglers. I may go dig in the park, maybe.

Please, advice!

Pg

[guidofatherof5]

Grab a shovel buddy.:D

[ConcinusMan]

Definitely do not use shark or swordfish. They're way too high on the food chain and totally carnivorous. That makes them very high in mercury and other heavy metals. It's not fit for human consumption if you ask me, and snakes are even more sensitive to contaminants.

[Serpico]

Grab a shovel buddy.:D

I will probably do so....I like my snakes, and I do not care for puzzled looks by dog walkers in the park..

And regarding the shark or swordfish, it was an example.....

[ConcinusMan]

Grab a shovel buddy.:D

As wet as the Pacific Northwest climate is, and as many worms that can be found most of the year, it's so dry around here now that a shovel will only yield more dry dirt.

However, a short walk or drive to the store, with about $1.99 in my pocket will always yield about 13 fat juicy night crawlers any day of year.:cool:

[Serpico]

As wet as the Pacific Northwest climate is, and as many worms that can be found most of the year, it's so dry around here now that a shovel will only yield more dry dirt.

However, a short walk or drive to the store, with about $1.99 in my pocket will always yield about 13 fat juicy night crawlers any day of year.:cool:

I wish I was in your area/town/country, my dear friend....

Here, not only rain is missing since early july, but all the fish equipment stores insist in selling me red wrigglers.....

Right now I am trying with another fish (sorry, name in english unknown yet) which the female gobbled instantly. Now she is in another container, and he is alone in the big viv with pieces of the said fish everywhere....
Cross fingers!

[ConcinusMan]

Yeah, we had no rain since early July but we got some yesterday and it's raining today. Still, it will have to rain a lot more before I can find my own worms.

[RedSidedSPR]

Welcome to my world. Lived here 4 years and never seen worm.

[Serpico]

Finger crossing did not help. The fish pieces were there untouched, and when I reintroduced the female, she ate them..
Now she is sleeping, the fat b......., and he is exploring the viv with that amused-puzzled sort of gaze many animals have, as to say "where the hell am I?

Weather forecast say rain in few days....maybe a hevay shower would bring the little fellow out?
Or maybe I could order some on Internet?

[chris-uk]

I think there's real differences in the food that's available to use Europeans compared to the States.
For me fish (for human consumption) is easy to get hold of, we can get good quality fish easily - tilapia, which seems to be a favourite in the US, is expensive here though (around £25/kg); Scottish salmon fillets are about half the cost of tilapia; we are also trying hake, which is half the cost of salmon.
Feeder fish don't seem to be easy to come by, use of feeder fish in the UK is not technically illegal but it's a grey area that is frowned upon.
Pinkies are really easy to find, we have two shops within a 10 minute drive that sell them frozen. The best price being £2.50 for 10, which is better than buying online when you factor in the postage.
Worms... I've not found anywhere locally, but there must be a fishing shop around. I'll ask a friend who fishes. There are places to buy them online, but I'm not 100% sure they aren't red wrigglers.

I just find it interesting to compare the availability of different foods.

[snakehill]

Hey Chris! When are you going to give the wife a chance to post??:rolleyes: (Do you have more than one computer?)

[chris-uk]

Hey Chris! When are you going to give the wife a chance to post??:rolleyes: (Do you have more than one computer?)

Her laptop (which I'm currently using). Two phones with the internet, most of the time I post to the forum from my phone. A server in the office. My work laptop upstairs. Two PCs in the office.
She'll post again sooner or later. :) Probably when she takes her laptop back. :eek:

[Char361979]

Hey Chris! When are you going to give the wife a chance to post??:rolleyes:

It keeps him out the way. While he's waffling on at you lot, he's not waffling on at me. We have many computers in the house.

[snakehill]

That works!!!!!!!!;)

[Serpico]

Update...

Last saturday, quite depressed, I grabbed internet and ordered earthworms to an italian company from up north.
I am not going to reveal what I paid for them, because you'll all believe italians are thieves (and you would not be very far away from the mark..), the earthworms arrived today, I checked if they were real earthworms and not red wrigglers, I believed they were the former, I considered that for almost ten years I have given my very first couple of garters every kind of "worm" sold by the fish equipments shops, I crossed myself, I removed the female from the viv, and started presenting one fat worm to the male.
Nothing, not even a flick of the tongue.
I presented it with long tweezers, I made the worm wiggle, I put it just in front of his nose. Nothing.
I then left the worm alone in the viv with the snake; in 15 minutes I had to fish back the worm, which had done his job, burrowing into the substratum.

I took the snake and put in into a smaller container, together with the worm, I left them alone for about one hour.
Nothing, at the end, the worm was there untouched.

My old couple made earthworms last about 30 seconds, any place I put them into the viv, they smelled the food and rushed for it.....

Now the garter is back in the terrarium, hiding somewhere with the female, the worms are in a capacious container with fresh earth, and I do not know what else to do.

In the past 10 years and so that I had garters, I have never had these kind of problems, ever. I told my son that garters were easy snakes to begin with, and now he looks at me and asks me what is going to happen, and I have to tell him "I do not know"...

[guidofatherof5]

You may have to cut up some worm chunks and scent it with salmon until they acquire the new taste.

[RedSidedSPR]

Was gonna say the same thing. Chop 'em up with whatever else he's eating.

[Serpico]

I am sorry to say that he has eaten salmon once ONLY, then refused that fish too, the next time I gave it to him.

Now I think that scenting one type of food with another could be something to try, but I do not store much hope in it, possibly because, apart for that one time he tasted salmon, he has refused everything else, the following time, and salmon too.

Tomorrow I'll try scenting salmon with worms..at worst, the female will eat them....

[RedSidedSPR]

What DOES he eat?

[Serpico]

What DOES he eat?

Aquired him and the female on the 25th of september, ate one chunk of salmon ffillet after one week in the new home.

So it has last eaten approx. 15 days ago.
In the same time the female has eaten salmon, trout, small fish Atherina Boyeri, salmon again.

[katach]

Have you tried anything other than fish and worm? Maybe try a slug or pinkie.

[Serpico]

Have you tried anything other than fish and worm? Maybe try a slug or pinkie.

I have some hopes with slugs, I mean, finding them, coming autumn it should not too difficult to find them, and regarding pinkies, coming saturday i'll definitely go buy some.

[Mommy2many]

In the fall, they tend to slow down on their eating schedule. You mentioned that you acquired them the 25th of September; last year, I presume? So have they been eating regularly for you since then, or is the date wrong and are they newly acquired snakes? Newly acquired snakes may take a few weeks to acclimate themselves to their new home and in that, not eat.

Keep trying different types of food, i.e. worms, fish, pinkies, slugs etc. When they are hungry, they will eat.:D

[Serpico]

In the fall, they tend to slow down on their eating schedule. You mentioned that you acquired them the 25th of September; last year, I presume? So have they been eating regularly for you since then, or is the date wrong and are they newly acquired snakes? Newly acquired snakes may take a few weeks to acclimate themselves to their new home and in that, not eat.

Keep trying different types of food, i.e. worms, fish, pinkies, slugs etc. When they are hungry, they will eat.:D

The latter option, LeAnn.
They are newly aquired ones, and while it is true what you say about acclimatization, it is also true that the female ate immediately, and the male DID eat one chunk (not big, his head more or less), ONCE, then stopped.
And this happened after one week only their arrival.

I will surely keep trying offering him food, next offering will be fish tomorrow, and on saturday I'll go get pinkies and sunday, slugs.

But I intended brumating the couple, this coming winter, and now I am reconsidering...

[Serpico]

Update.

I got pinkies today, I chopped them and after having removed the female from the viv, I gave some thawed pieces to the male.
Ignored.
I have left the pieces with him right now, and I am gone. I'll wait some time before prononcing also this food "refused".

At the same time, I have noticed a small lump on the male's back, approx one third of his lenght, the lump is grey color, and a couple of millimiters high...

What could it be? It was not there, two days ago....

A worried Pg

[guidofatherof5]

A photo would be great.

Is it scabbed over? What does it feel like? moveable, hard.
Any seepage?

[Serpico]

It feels like a lump, moves a bit but not much, no seepage, it looks dry, grey ish in color, and he definitely refused also the pinkies's chunks....

Thanks for any help!

[katach]

What is the humidity in the tank? If humidity gets too high they can get blister disease. One of our Pugets got a blister when we first got her. We had a ventilation issue with our first tank. We put antibiotic ointment on it, kept a very close eye on her, and got a new tank with better air flow.

[Serpico]

What is the humidity in the tank? If humidity gets too high they can get blister disease. One of our Pugets got a blister when we first got her. We had a ventilation issue with our first tank. We put antibiotic ointment on it, kept a very close eye on her, and got a new tank with better air flow.

If anything, the tank is well aerated..both vents correctly set, and opened...
No, i would not say the humidity is too high, in case, is too low..

[katach]

Could it be a parasite? I can't recall where I saw this, but there is a worm that can be just under the skin of the snake.

[guidofatherof5]

Subcutaneous worms.
http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/general-talk/8197-busy-day-vets.html
http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/urgent-care/6187-pimples.html

[Serpico]

Subcutaneous worms.
http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/general-talk/8197-busy-day-vets.html
http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/urgent-care/6187-pimples.html

After having read the linked articles, I concur. And tomorrow Shiro and I will go see doctor...

I will keep you posted, while Mila gobbled up 6 Aterina (small fish)...he did not even look at them.

[Serpico]

Latest update.
I went to the vet with both snakes, and the results are that, while Mila is ok (I brought her there just for a check up), Shiro has a beginning of an abscess.
I have seen with the lens the seepage, tiny really, but pressing the "bulb", it is visible.
The vet disinfected it, and gave me a prescription to follow, telling me to do so for 10 days.
After that, check up again.
I am relieved..and I hope he will be good again soon.

Cheers!

[guidofatherof5]

Nice to hear things are well and you have a plan of attack toward the abscess.
Glad Mila is well also.
Could you please tell us about the treatment?
Thanks.

[Serpico]

Cross fingers, the vet used a cottonstick to apply the liquid, more a gel actually, to the abscess, gently pressing down and working both toward the tail and against it..very slowly, and gently (but Shiro did not like it), until the gel was visibly penetrating between scales.

Shiro calmed down immediately, probably because the gel was not burning...

Now he is under his hide, and I am going out to buy the stuff.
Name is Clorexiderm, but he said that betadyne also worked. Problem is, of course, that brand names change across borders, I guess...

I'll keep you posted....

[guidofatherof5]

How often do you treat the area?

[Serpico]

How often do you treat the area?

Ah, yes, forgot to say that, twice a day....

[Serpico]

UPDATE!

But no, my friends, it is not the news you are waiting...still, it is not a bad one, I think.

Shiro, the male garter with the abscess, is slightly better, the bump on his back is moderately smalller, ad touching it it feels less lumpy, as it is deflating".

And my son today came with a shed, telling me that the female has shed again; I replied "impossible", she did it just few days ago.

We went and looked at the snakes, and it was Shiro who shed, not Mila!

Few days ago I did notice the male with milky blue eyes, but I thought I was just dreaming..

Instead he did an almost perfect shed, save for one inch at the tail, the shed is intact.

I tried and feed him one small fish, tho, but he ignored it.

Mila, instead, did not ignore my fish scented hand, and promptly tasted my thumb.
To be honest she realized her mistake immediately, and provided to spit it, save eating another small fish I gave her (bare hand, of course).

Friday, salmon, and we hope also Shiro will eat it, he is so thin!

What do you guy think of force feeding?

Regards!

[RedSidedSPR]

I don't like force feeding but I'll let someone else touch on that.

Blue eyes happen right before a shed!:)

And make sure you get that tail tip off.

[Bart]

I'm suprised that no one said this before, but I think you've got a couple of ribbons there! They are NOT garters. Probably eastern ribbons, which means, they are wild caught. They will not eat worms nor pinks - fish only (and frogs).

Those snakes like to eat from the water, so place their food in the waterdish. Live, like guppies, mollyfish or swordtails. Never ever move them from the tank, because it stresses them out and you can forget about feeding. Ribbons are very timid and if anything disturbs them, they will refuse to eat, even for days.

If they will hunt down guppies, we'll go to another stage, read: how make ribbons to eat anything else than live guppies. ;)

[kibakiba]

They are both thamnophis, though... So technically, they are garters ;)

[Bart]

Yes Chantel, "technically", though biochemically they seem less closely related to other garter snakes than do some water snakes. But their diet and behaviour are quite different.

Check this article, please:
Questions About Ribbon Snakes in Captivity - gartersnake.info (http://www.gartersnake.info/articles/questions_about.php)

[Serpico]

Well, I am not in the position to question their real order and species, all I know is that I bought them from an Eastern Europe, who said they were born in captivity; I also know for sure that while the male tasted the salmon once, and then refused to eat anything else, salmon included, the female ate salmon, trout, aterina boyeri, one nightcrawler, pieces of pinky, and my thumb.
Regarding behaviour, they are now in hiding ,but during the day they are actively roaming their viv, and they do not usually run away and hide when they see someone approaching.
Anything else, I simply ignore it...

[Bart]

Well, probably they were taught to eat other stuff. ;) It's hard but not impossible. As for born in captivity - if so, the female probably was gravid before she was caught. According to my information, ribbons very rarely if ever are breed in captivity.
Again, I strongly suggest that you shouldn't move them from their tank if you're planning to feed them. Ribbons are more timid and nervous than garters. And they really preffer to eat from the water rather the tongs or the ground. And giving them live fish is the best bet to feed them. My Kleo is taught to eat scented pinks, but it has to be scent of live fish she ate previously. It took me a long time to teach her this, not to mention eating from the tongs.
Just try with guppies. ;) I can assure you, that picky male will eat them like crazy. ;) I wish you luck! :)

[Serpico]

I am still not sure about their species, BUT I would like to thank Bart, because today I bought two live guppies at one pet shop, I then separated male and female (using the built in feature of my terrarium), and I plunged the two tiny guppies into the water container on the male section.

He reacted at once, diving into the water, opening his mouth and trying like crazy to catch the fish. And since I saw him having problems catching them, I took one aterina (small fish a bit bigger than guppies, frozen), plunged into the water tank, and of course he managed to catch the dead fish.

I left him in peace, alone, with three other frozen fish on the water tank rim, and the two guppies swimming... After some time, one of the frozen fish was gone. Now, one and half hour later, the guppies and the remaining frozen fish are there, and the snake is sleeping onto his favourite branch....

I am happy because he finally ate, and also because he ate the frozen fish, and not toe live and possibly parasitized one. So Bart was possibly very right, when he said that it was a matter of character. I always had thamnophis who were curious, inquisitive, ready to eat and ready to go investigate. The female got another frozen fish from my hand, now when I open the cage, she comes toward my hand and slides gracefully over it if she does not smell anything interesting...
If she does, she eats it..:)
Apparently, the male is another thing. I am planning to shoot pictures of the two, and post them here, so maybe someone may accurately ident them. Any particular detail I have to aim at?

Thanks to Bart again, and to all friends!

Pg

[RedSidedSPR]

That's awesome that he eat!

[guidofatherof5]

Good job to both you and Bart. Glad to hear the male is finally eating.
Just to clarify something. You are feeding frozen, then thawed fish?

[Serpico]

All in all, he ate TWO small fish, frozen and of course, thawed. He CHASED the guppies, failed, ate the dead fish.
Weird, uh?
The female, at the same time, takes fish from my bare hand.
Is it possible that I have two different animals? Or the difference in behaviour can be so big?

[RedSidedSPR]

Every snake is different.