Wild Flames in Manitoba!

[thamneil]

I have been looking to aquire a pair of flames forever! I was under the impression that the closest they ranged to here was Quebec. Well they are closer to home than I thought. This article also proves that Manitoba is home to both T. s. parietalis and T. s. sirtalis. Something new pops up everyday!

Colourful slitherers earn renown - Winnipeg Free Press (http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/local/colourful-slitherers-earn-renown-129439093.html)

[BUSHSNAKE]

cool article!

[snakeman]

There was somebody in canada That was breeding these for a while.I am not sure if it was the northern population.But they were definitely from manitoba.

[d_virginiana]

Nice article. I always get excited when I see garters in the news :D

[guidofatherof5]

Good read.
Thanks for posting it.

[thamneil]

Thats pretty crazy snakeman. Apparently the native people of thet area knew about these snakes far before anyone else. Hard to believe that they were being bred already. You wouldnt happen to know of anyone working with flames in Canada would you? And yes, I get very excited when any reptile is in the news!

[snakeman]

Other than Charles I don't know.I am thinking it's illegal.You may be able to catch one yourself.But breeding and selling may not be allowed.Check your local laws.

[thamneil]

Whats the story with Dr. Blais? I heard he produced the best flames.

[guidofatherof5]

His name came up in a thread a short time ago.
Here's a link.
http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/general-talk/8969-phil-blais-garter-contact-info-flame-garters.html

[thamneil]

Hmmm thats too bad. It really is a shame that it is so hard to get garters in Canada.

[ConcinusMan]

I have been looking to aquire a pair of flames forever! I was under the impression that the closest they ranged to here was Quebec. Well they are closer to home than I thought. This article also proves that Manitoba is home to both T. s. parietalis and T. s. sirtalis.

And radix unless they have completely and suddenly been extirpated overnight from and area hundreds of square miles in size:rolleyes:

And that snake pictured is not a flame eastern or eastern at all IMO. Looks like an aberrant red sided to me.

""One out of every 20 I caught was this red colour." Amazing find. A little convergent evolution taking place with Canadian easterns and red sided, reinforced by local natural selection?

[thamneil]

I completly forgot about radix! Steve would kill me! And I dont know Richard. Wouldnt an erythristic parietalis not look a lot more uniformly red? The patterning on this snake matches a flame perfectly. Only my guess though.

[thamneil]

Oh you said abberant! The redsideds up here exibit very low amounts of red. Some are completly balck or have just the slightest hint of red. Is it not unlikely that that many snakes would show this coloration out of the population. And wouldnt an aberrant redsided exhibit more tanish or brown color instead of red. Keep in mind that the red sideds in Manitoba have little resemblance to the commomly seen Kansas strain often encountered in captivity.

[ConcinusMan]

I completly forgot about radix! Steve would kill me! According Steve, they don't exist at the dens because he didn't see any. Some even claim they don't exist anywhere in Manitoba. I think they do.


And I dont know Richard. Wouldnt an erythristic parietalis not look a lot more uniformly red? The patterning on this snake matches a flame perfectly. Only my guess though.

No it wouldn't. Erythristic only means an unusual amount of red. Could just mean an unusually high area of it is red. Which in this case, that's what it looks like. Either way "aberrant" applies as being a non-specific unusual trait. It's a bit outside the norm, whatever you want to call it, it is aberrant. As in, not normal or usual.

That snake is definitely not an eastern. Sure, it looks like a "flame" but everything else screams "parietalis" to me. The shade of red, the pattern of red above the laterals, shape of the head... that's a red sided.

[snakeman]

Actually its in an area not known to have any parietalis.

[ConcinusMan]

Oh c'mon. It's manitoba, and just look at it. That's a red sided as sure as I'm white. And you have to consider, nobody even knew these snakes were here until recently.

[snakeman]

Copeia - Extreme Color Variation within Populations of the Common Gartersnake, Thamnophis sirtalis, in Central North America, with Implications for Subspecies Status (http://www.asihcopeiaonline.org/doi/abs/10.1643/CH-10-067)

[ConcinusMan]

Yeah, not still sure that they aren't just red sided. "One out of every 20 I caught was this red colour." But there's no mention if the rest of them possibly were just normal looking red sideds with just a few red spots on their sides, or if they lacked red entirely.

But seriously, if you look at that snake and imagine it without the red below the lateral, the color and distribution of red above the lateral just gives me every indication that this is just a local color morph of red sided. Just like about 1 in 20 of the concinnus' in a certain area of Oregon, lack red or orange and instead are anery with varying degrees of blue/green tint over all.

[snakeman]

There are no red sided garters in the area.Plus there are plenty of easterns with the same red color as normal red sided garters.

[ConcinusMan]

If you say so.

[ssssnakeluvr]

I have to agree with Tom on this.... definitely an eastern.

[Jeff B]

Interesting article, take the time to actually read the paper... it's an eastern.

[snakeman]

Yeah, what do scientists know.They are all biased in their results anyway.

[snakeman]

Hey, check out this Phil Blais red sided garter.

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/medium/DSCF0038.JPG

[snakeman]

I wanted to purchase the whole article.They want $60 for a membership.

[guidofatherof5]

I just emailed the American Society of Ichthyologists and Herpetologists for a copy of their documentation with regard to this issue.;)

[thamneil]

I love our little subspecies argument! Im gonna go with Eastern. I guess we have to wait until Steve gets an answer back. :p

[snakeman]

I just emailed the American Society of Ichthyologists and Herpetologists for a copy of their documentation with regard to this issue.;)

Please share when you get it!

[guidofatherof5]

Please share when you get it!


Absolutely.;)

or not, if they want $60 for it:D

[Jeff B]

I may be able to access the full text on moday via institutional log-in. After reading the abstact a couple times now, it seems as though they might be implying that there is no validity to current differentiation of the subspecies sirtalis sirtalis and sirtalis parietalis and that they are based solely on color differences, so maybe the arguement on this post is moot. Also, are they implying these locale flames deserve unique new subspecies status? Kinda looks that way doesn't it?
Guess I may as well cross my albino red-sided to my erythistic albino eastern next spring and see if they are compatible albino types huh? Just kidding....or am I ? lol, would it be CBB hybridizing or not? lol how about that can of worms? Maybe we should just lump all thams into one species, then I can get started working on making silver granites, granite albino flames, green axanthic granites, and green axanthic granite piebalds, oooh that would be cool, patches of green and black flecks on a mostly white body.

[guidofatherof5]

That would be great Jeff. Thanks for looking into it.

[ConcinusMan]

Maybe we should just lump all thams into one species, then I can get started working on making silver granites, granite albino flames, green axanthic granites, and green axanthic granite piebalds, oooh that would be cool, patches of green and black flecks on a mostly white body.

Blasphemy! :mad:

:p

[mb90078]

I may be able to access the full text on moday via institutional log-in. After reading the abstact a couple times now, it seems as though they might be implying that there is no validity to current differentiation of the subspecies sirtalis sirtalis and sirtalis parietalis and that they are based solely on color differences, so maybe the arguement on this post is moot. Also, are they implying these locale flames deserve unique new subspecies status? Kinda looks that way doesn't it?
Guess I may as well cross my albino red-sided to my erythistic albino eastern next spring and see if they are compatible albino types huh? Just kidding....or am I ? lol, would it be CBB hybridizing or not? lol how about that can of worms? Maybe we should just lump all thams into one species, then I can get started working on making silver granites, granite albino flames, green axanthic granites, and green axanthic granite piebalds, oooh that would be cool, patches of green and black flecks on a mostly white body.

Though you're clearly being facetious, you bring up a good point. What if one day, DNA reveals that...say...Manitoba Red Sideds and Kansas Red Sideds could technically be considered different sub species. Then many would all be guilty of the mortal sin of hybridizing!! Or, as many people suggest, what if Chicago Garters aren't a valid subspecies...what interesting possibilities could you come up with given your unique Chicagos??

And what about the fact that a lot, if not perhaps the majority of garters out there in the wild probably aren't 100% purebred? Heck, today's Humans carry Neanderthal DNA (up to 4%). By some garter breeders standards, we should all be killed at birth!!

[thamneil]

While mixing every garter into a giant rainbow sounds fun, the whole idea of it sickens me. The last thing I would like to see in garters is "cornsnakeing". What makes this hobby so unique is that we try to preserve subspecies and variants instead of creating dreamsicles and such. I will break into tears the day I see a "caramel cinnamon granite pied albino ranbow skittles walrus oprah garter snake"! I dont ever want to hear someone talk about this again! :p

[Jeff B]

I figured I would get some emotional responses to opening that can or worms, lol;)

[ConcinusMan]

That's one trolling trolling tool that is sure to work around here.


I may be able to access the full text on moday via institutional log-in. After reading the abstact a couple times now, it seems as though they might be implying that there is no validity to current differentiation of the subspecies sirtalis sirtalis and sirtalis parietalis and that they are based solely on color differences, so maybe the arguement on this post is moot.

I started thinking the same thing after that link was posted. That perhaps neither of us is right about the subspecies. Perhaps this population blurs the lines so much that it's neither T.s. parietalis nor T.s. sirtalis.

[thamneil]

Im glad you saw that coming Jeff :p And I think you have the right idea Richard.

[Jeff B]

That's one trolling trolling tool that is sure to work around here.




I started thinking the same thing after that link was posted. That perhaps neither of us is right about the subspecies. Perhaps this population blurs the lines so much that it's neither T.s. parietalis nor T.s. sirtalis.

Hey it's official, someone finally called me a Troll, wow I feel so low down dirty cheap now, lol

Exactly Richard, or perhaps parietalis and sirtalis have a blurry line thats being challenged and probably could throw semifasiatus under that bus too.

Most of the subspecies distictions were based on looks, colors, and locale.

Hmmm green axanthic piebald red-sideds...perfect...great looking and great personality, just kidding of course...for now anyway, but hey if the official scientific nomenclature someday gives me a green light, you better believe I will stomp on the gas pedal.
Heck next year I am going to breed northern flames to florida albino, both easterns of course, but very distant and distinct locales and they will likely be incredible looking and technically speaking nobody can call it hybridizing, though some might disapprove I won't be the only one doing that breeding, but hey I make no bones about it, I'm a morph guy not a locale only type, however I do draw the line with hybridizing based on current nomenclature.

[kibakiba]

No! Please, do not throw a garter snake under a bus! It'll be flattened and killed.. :(

[guidofatherof5]

An Error Occurred Setting Your User Cookie (http://www.asihcopeiaonline.org/toc/cope/2011/2) (Ignore the title. It will take you to the correct page)

I received a call this morning from my friend Steve Schmidt. Steve informed me that he had a color hard copy of the article and that he was going to send me a color copy of it. He said the photos are awesome especially the blue Red Sided garter snake. He says it's the bluest snake he's ever seen.
I can't wait to get the full article and see these photos.

[chris-uk]

Hope you get a PDF copy, far easier to share. The blue sounds impressive, and in the same wild population of the wild flames. It's a good argument that there can be a significant amount of colour diamorphism naturally.

[guidofatherof5]

Just received another call from Steve Schmidt. He's going to see if he can get a digital copy of the article sent to me.
So hopefully in the next couple of days I have it in hand.

[thamneil]

Wow! Been months and this is still going. The Blais redsided is amazing!

[guidofatherof5]

This is one of those good news, bad news thread.

The good news is I received the Copeia article today in an email. Hooray!

The bad news is the file is too large for me to download. I have a 20 MB limit on downloads and this file is over that.
I contacted my cable provider and they told me they can't change the rules.
I will contact the the sender tomorrow and see if he can send it as a zip file or better yet if he can send half of it in two separate email.
Either way it looks like it will be another day before I can get a look at this thing.
I'll keep you posted on my progress.

[chris-uk]

This is one of those good news, bad news thread.

The good news is I received the Copeia article today in an email. Hooray!

The bad news is the file is too large for me to download. I have a 20 MB limit on downloads and this file is over that.
I contacted my cable provider and they told me they can't change the rules.
I will contact the the sender tomorrow and see if he can send it as a zip file or better yet if he can send half of it in two separate email.
Either way it looks like it will be another day before I can get a look at this thing.
I'll keep you posted on my progress.
Steve - depending how much bigger than 20MB it is, you may be able to receive it in a Gmail account (if you don't use Google Mail you could have one setup in a few minutes). That would give you up to 25MB. I don't know of any email providers that allow attachments larger than that.

[guidofatherof5]

I have it. Printing a copy now. Awesome looking snakes.

[ConcinusMan]

Just tell them to upload to a file hosting site and send you the link for cryin' out loud:cool:

EDIT: oops. nevermind

[guidofatherof5]

Anyone wanting a copy of the article needs to PM me with an email. The file is 12.9 MB.
I'm going to see if I can get permission to post the photos on the forum.

[BUSHSNAKE]

awesome article Steve thanks for sending it!

[ConcinusMan]

He said the photos are awesome especially the blue Red Sided garter snake. He says it's the bluest snake he's ever seen.
I can't wait to get the full article and see these photos.

What? There's a blue parietalis too? And this is for sure not the blue concinnus?

[ssssnakeluvr]

I downloaded the file. definitely sirtalis, in Canada. pretty snake

[BUSHSNAKE]

What? There's a blue parietalis too? And this is for sure not the blue concinnus?
its a melanistic...thats blue...

[ssssnakeluvr]

did you get the article too? I haven't read the whole thing yet, but downloaded and saved with other interesting articles :D

[guidofatherof5]

The link I sent out is no longer active. I will have to email a 12.5 MB file to anyone still wanting the article.

[ConcinusMan]

Some file hosting sites are currently having legal issues (copyright) . Megaupload has been shut down and sued, others shut down voluntarily or restricted access.:cool:

Not sure if my email will allow attachments that large. PM sent.

[guidofatherof5]

I now have the PDF split into two part.
Part #1 6.3 MB pages 1-10
Part #2 6.6 MB pages 11-15
Should be easier to send now.

[guidofatherof5]

Thought I would bump this back up for anyone still interested in getting an email copy of this awesome article.
All I need is an off forum email address.
The article will come in two separate emails. It totals 12.9 Mb and may be too large for many servers, hence the two parts.
Just drop me a PM and I'll get it out to you.;)

[gregmonsta]

You know ... I happen to be one of those PDF connoiseurs ;) ... me wants an e-mail.

[guidofatherof5]

You know ... I happen to be one of those PDF connoiseurs ;) ... me wants an e-mail.

I can send you a hard copy if you would like. No need to get an email just for this.

[guidofatherof5]

This should be easier for those who still want the article.
ch-10-067.pdf - File Shared from Box - Free Online File Storage (http://www.box.com/s/v5g8mu1kl2dehnj6bb9r)

[mikem]

awesome! downloaded and will read in a bit. thanks for sharing!

[gregmonsta]

I can send you a hard copy if you would like. No need to get an email just for this.
The download is just fine mate.

[ConcinusMan]

I got it too. Two email attachments at 6 point something meg each worked fine.:D

And hey Joe, somebody we know would call that blue one "anery" or "axanthic". Matter of fact, there's lots of snakes in the hobby called that, but they are really just a type of melanistic. For some reason people think melanistic must be black and patternless.:rolleyes:

I've seen two types in northwesterns. One much like that blue snake, and one totally black. But they are both melanistic darnit!

[BUSHSNAKE]

lmao Richard your so funny... i would love to elaborate on the subject but i wont cuz right now im a sweet squiral monkey and just thinking about the subject turns me into a chest beating gorilla...silver back that is!

[charles parenteau]

Very nice article!tanks for sharing this!!!