Morph Timeline

[RicMartin]

Hi every one,

I've been compiling a list of the current known cb morphs for plains garters, with the date they first appeared, the location, & the finder/breeder who started it.

Scott & Steve have been of great assistance already; I hope the whole forum can help to fill in the missing info or correct any errors.

Later, when this is more complete, we can do this with all subspecies & maybe add other fields, like who's breeding then now, or whatever people think pertinent.

I'm sure there's a way to make this look like a table with cells for the categories, for better reference, but here is what we have so far:

T. RADIX MORPH TIMELINE:

1985-1995 ILLINOIS ANERY, ILLINOIS ALBINO
1995 IOWA ALBINO: Mark Rouw, IOWA ANERY: Mark Rouw,
NEBRASKA ALBINO: Dan Fogell
1999 IOWA SNOW: Scott Felzer
2000
2001 IOWA ALBINO: Eric Beal, XMAS ALBINO: Scott Felzer,
COLORADO ALBINO, NEBRASKA SNOW: Scott Felzer
2002
2003 2nd COLORADO ALBINO
2004 ILLINOIS RED HYPO FEMALE: Doug Wenzel
2005 AXANTHIC: Doug Wenzel
2006 SUPER XMAS ALBINO: Scott Felzer
2007
2008 ILLINOIS HYPO FEMALE: Dave Odd,
WAYNE CO. NEBRASKA HIGH RED: Ian Campbell
2009 BLIZZARD: Scott Felzer, AZTEC: Joe Peck
2010 DODGE CO. ALBINO: Chad Howser, B&W: Steve Gilfillan
GREEN: Steve Gilfillan, FREMONT CO. ALBINO: Steve Gilfillan,
RED IOWA ALBINO: Julio
2011 ORANGE NEBRASKA ALBINO: Don Dunlap,
RED NEBRASKA ALBINO: Scott Felzer

[BUSHSNAKE]

the first illinois anery was found by a guy named Berny Schubert(we all call it melanistic here in Illinois) and then later obtained by Doug Wenzell, who then caught a blue morph(axanthic ?) and was the first to breed the blue morph to the melanistic. He had discovered that they are compatable, when he bred the blue to the melanistic he got blue ones(first generation)when he bred the blue to the normal he got hets.As far as im concerned the blue morph has been hugely missrepresented, its recessive not co-dominant(and its certainly not axanthic). the red hypo from doug wenzel i believe actually orginated out of Nebraska, Doug got it from a guy named John Carlson

[BUSHSNAKE]

Aztec(or i called it striped)Lombard Il dupage county
melanistic(anery?)Romeoville, Il Will County
blue morph(axanthic?)palos hills Il cook county

[RicMartin]

Thanks Joe. Besides all the new info, your posts give us Morph Genetics as another needed field, where we can plug Recessive, Co-Dominant, or Debated: Recessive/Co-Dominant, Axanthic, etc.

I will expand the list with your info later & repost.

Also maybe we can add Other Morph Name, for Striped/Aztec, or Xmas/Orange.

How was Xmas named, did the scrub turn orange on the 24th?

[BUSHSNAKE]

lol, you have to ask Scott Felzer that last question

[ConcinusMan]

Now that's funny

[RicMartin]

I figured I was the only one who didn't know the trivia about the Xmas/Orange thing.
We'll ask Scott, then.
I know there are other snakes with morphs called Aztec, I don't know if that always means striped, someone here must know.
This is already providing good answers & good questions in just one day. Thanks.

[ConcinusMan]

Aztec Plains: another "non-morph" morph if you ask me. Just like Mohr anery.

Just try googling either one of those and pay attention to the source of anything you might find written on the web. It's always the same person and/or website that say these two are a morph. And also, pay attention to the number of specimens known to exist, and whether or not they have been reproduced. It's always just one or two.

Don't you think that's a little odd?

Look, I'm just saying there's no evidence at all that these are morphs or even inheritable traits.

[BUSHSNAKE]

possibly... the Aztec never got the chance to be bred

[ConcinusMan]

And just exactly how many have been found? One aberrant individual does not a morph make so why go around talking like it is, and calling the offspring "hets".

[RicMartin]

Richard, go FoxNews another thread. This thread is a call for information, not a call for trolling & name calling.
Breeding linages start with one specimen, & garter linages are not 15 years old, so there are going to be many dead ends, the people exploring these genetic possibilities deserve respect, not your GlenBecking manure.

[BUSHSNAKE]

yeh Richard! Ric hes just expressing his opinion, so let him have it, hes entitled

[ConcinusMan]

Richard, go FoxNews another thread. This thread is a call for information, not a call for trolling & name calling.
Breeding linages start with one specimen, & garter linages are not 15 years old, so there are going to be many dead ends, the people exploring these genetic possibilities deserve respect, not your GlenBecking manure.

Please quote any name calling I did recently when talking about this. Please quote any disrespectful posts. I was merely stating there there is no evidence to suggest that either of these traits are genetic, inheritable, etc. That is not a debate. Exploring is fine. Practically declaring that they are morph, with hets, etc, without any supporting evidence is something else altogether.

If you or anyone else wants to get bent out of shape about it, well that's just too bad. It is my opinion that these are not morphs and I stated my reasons why. If you don't think any of the reasons are valid, then that explains why you accept another opinion that they are morphs without any evidence that they are.:cool: There's more valid reasons to support that they are not. Does that mean they can't be? Of course not. But until it's proven, they're not.

[RicMartin]

Let's keep our focus in the timeline, please. Once the info is accurate & up to date, it may even provide us with some answers to our current questions, doubts, and opinions.

So, Richard, can you express yourself with some concinnity as to what would you add, delete or change in the current list, without those pesky judgements that I can't translate into data?

[RicMartin]

How about:

RADIX MORPH & POSSIBLE MORPH TIMELINE

on the top, & we can figure out who's who later on.

Or setting in a different color morphs that are not proven yet.

Or both.

[ConcinusMan]

OK then. If the idea is to create a timeline of actual morphs and when they appeared in captive breeding and by what breeder then...

2010: GREEN: Steve Gilfillan

Again, is that a morph? Green is just a normal wild color phase that has always been around. It's not like it's something new that just popped up in 2010.

2010: Red Iowa Albino - Julio

Those have been around for years too. Try to find out when and who because that is not it.

If I recall correctly, the first Red phase Nebraska albino that we know of, was found WC. There's no mention of that.

EDIT: of course, you beat me to the post by a minute and addressed some of this.

[RicMartin]

Richard, please read my original post. This is a working paper, it will reflect whatever info is supplied to it. Are there any other morphs that you think should be Possible Morphs other than the ones you have mentioned above?

[ConcinusMan]

OK. I have brown radix. Want to add that?

[Chondro788]

As for the Aztecs, I bought a WC female with some of her babies and one of the babies sure looked like an Aztec. A friend of mine bought him, and the snake unfortunately died. I still have the mother though, so we will see if she throws any more Aztecs.... :confused:

[RicMartin]

Thanks Jason. I think we will end up with a striped Aztec lineage soon, we know that it is there as a possibility, and we know animals who are likely to carry the gene. I think it's just a question of time.

We can make this timeline very dry and just list currently proven morphs, deleting all the fuzzy, not stablished morphs, but I rather keep the fuzzy info in this list too, so that we can see some patterns at work on future morph possibilities.

Anything that is not regularly available is not well stablished, but I want to know what they are anyway.

Jason, do you have a date, place, name, or photo to go with that Aztec occurrence? I think I've only seen one Aztec photo.

[ConcinusMan]

Jason, do you have a date, place, name, or photo to go with that Aztec occurrence? I think I've only seen one Aztec photo.

Why don't you just ask Scott. He seems to have all the answers you seek. Or you could just have faith in what is written in some book by one author, that says garters eat insects. Same difference.


Thanks Jason. I think we will end up with a striped Aztec lineage soon, we know that it is there as a possibility, and we know animals who are likely to carry the gene. I think it's just a question of time.

Well now I've just made a mistake then. I actually took what was written on some website Scott Felzer's Garter Snakes, specializing in aberrant garters (http://www.albinogartersnake.com/price_aztec_plains.html) as fact because it was repeated by so many people. Well sheeat. See how that works? It's the same "social engineering" phenomenon that cause so many people to think that garter snakes eat insects.

"Unfortunately the lone Aztec female in the collection passed away in brumation in the winter of 2010/2011"

So many people, including myself, (hear a "fable" or "urban legend" often enough, from enough people and you start to believe it) took this to mean that there was only one, now it's dead, and the trait was never produced or seen again. I know that's not what he said, but it's worded in such a way that most people would get that impression.

But anywho, the site also says: "The Aztec was first produced from a seemingly normal Illinois plains garter in 2009 and acquired by Joe Peck"

You know, it's kind of ironic. Joe and I just talked on the phone recently and conversation centered mainly on this "Mohr Anery" and the "Aztec". He never once, in private or even in public, tried to "claim" this as a morph or take credit. Some people do that consistently even though there is nothing to be claimed yet. Theres even a price on them, before they exist. You know, to get it pounded into peoples subconcious early on, as to what they should be valued at.

I know it seems to the simple minded that I have a problem with Scott, or anything personal against him. I assure you, I have not even interacted with him enough for that to happen. Pay attention to the issues I am trying to bring focus on. It's not about Scott. It's about the rest of it. It's about the morphs, marketing, and who the "collective" goes to for their "facts" and information. Too much speculation and reliance on sources that I believe are not necessarily accurate.

I would not rely on a really talented professional clown for information regarding the entertainment and overall happiness of child upbringing. Would you? The clown may know how to make your children smile and like him, and laugh for a moment, but in the end he's just a clown. Your kids would soon get bored or even annoyed by his antics and not longer find him so funny or entertaining. His show would get old and it wouldn't be entertaining any longer.

[Chondro788]

Here is a pic of the little male "Aztec". Wish I would have kept him, but you can't keep them all. This male was produced from a wild caught female from IL. The adult female is in my collection, but I am not holding out alot of hope for this "morph". I beleive the aberrant pattern we see in this animal is just natural occuring. It could also have something to do with stress during gestation, we have seen this in boas, although some striped boas are in fact genetic, alot of striped boas have been produced by normal parents, and never been recreated even with line breeding. Anyways, thats just how I see it. It would have been neat to breed the male back to his mother in hopes of producing more Aztec, but oh well.

Hey Steve, since you have seen ALOT of radix, is this something you see from time to time?


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v152/chondro788/radixmale.jpg

[guidofatherof5]

Not that pattern.
That being said I did have a strange runt radix born that seemed to have an extra lateral stripe. She only lived a short time after birth.
The snake pictured appears similar. I still have her in the freezer. I might have to thaw her out for some photos.
Beautiful snake.

[guidofatherof5]

I did have this little female born awhile back. She was a runt and didn't live more than a few hours after birth.
Looking at the snake you have pictured I can see some similarities in the neck area(in my opinion).
I still have this snake in the freezer.
This would have been an interesting snake if it had lived. I don't see much normal radix in it at all.


http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/medium/weird.jpghttp://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/medium/weird1.jpg
http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/medium/weird2.jpghttp://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/medium/weird3.jpg

[BUSHSNAKE]

shannon had a sibling to the aztec..it looked like nothing else ive seen, it only had the stripes...no pattern at all

[RicMartin]

Jason, thanks for that great photo & info. It looks like stripes in garters are more complex than just a recessive gene, which makes for a great breeding challenge. Good luck with it. I don't doubt we will figure it out.

I know that in milks the aberrant gene is cumulative, tending to stripes, but in a messy 'artistic' way; and egg stress can cause it, but it can also be passed genetically. We will find out how it works with garters.

Richard, we have heard your point, & noted it already. Listen to yourself, man.

That extra striped female was gorgeous, Steve, and her photo helps a lot; thanks very much. Sorry she passed.

[BUSHSNAKE]

jasons animal came from Shane Costello(think thats his last name) Shane caught the female in River Grove Ill, Cook County

[RicMartin]

Wow. I bet Shannon has picts of that one. It sounds like a possible Aberrant-Vanishing Patern double whammy.

[Chondro788]

jasons animal came from Shane Costello(think thats his last name) Shane caught the female in River Grove Ill, Cook County

Right on Joe, thanks, I was still searching for his name. :cool:

Dang Steve, that little runt was a beauty!!! :( How cool would she have been as an adult!!

[ConcinusMan]

I think there was more going on with Steves little one than just unusual pattern and striping. It almost looks like the scales aren't quite right too.

Do you think it's possible that some of these unusual snakes that seem to pop up randomly and don't prove out, could actually be coming from the father? as in, maybe he looks normal but has some sort of defect when producing sperm? Maybe the genetic material is mutated in the sperm instead of being passed down by gene exchange?

I mean, I've seen this happen with Pomeranians. If the father is rather old, he starts throwing pups that have problems. Genetic problems. But has to do with his sperm, not his genes.

[RicMartin]

I'll try to reformat & repost the new info by tomorrow evening, guys.
Thanks to all that have contributed to this fun data collection so far, &
I hope we hear from even more forum members soon,
so we can fill in even more details.

[guidofatherof5]

Thanks Ric for putting the time and effort into this project.
It's much appreciated.

[PINJOHN]

Thanks Ric for putting the time and effort into this project.
It's much appreciated.

DITTO what Steve just said, it's great to see your name on so many posts just lately i know you are on the site often but stay a lot in the back ground, have you managed to find yourself more time, i hope so, looking forward to seeing more of your efforts Ric.

[RicMartin]

I wish I had more time. We are moving next month, & organizing that has turned into a major headache. I wanted to repost the radix info on Sunday, & I haven't been able to touch it till now. I will repost it next.

[RicMartin]

Here is the timeline again with the latest info updated.

Let me repeat that this is a working list. If you see something wrong,
let us know so that it can be changed.

There's still a lot to add, including some pictures,
& I'm looking for a better way to display this info visually.

I don't know much about the Illinois Albino. Does it look different than the Iowa?


T. RADIX POSSIBLE MORPHS TIME OUTLINE:

1985-1995 WILL CO. (ROMEOVILLE) ILLINOIS ANERY(MELANISTIC): Berny Schubert, Doug Wenzell, /RECESSIVE/

1985-1995 ILLINOIS ALBINO /RECESSIVE/

1995 IOWA ALBINO: Mark Rouw, /RECESSIVE/

1995 IOWA ANERY: Mark Rouw, /RECESSIVE/

1995 NEBRASKA ALBINO: Dan Fogell, /RECESSIVE/

1999 IOWA SNOW: Scott Felzer, /RECESSIVE/

2001 IOWA ALBINO: Eric Beal, /RECESSIVE/

2001 XMAS ALBINO: Scott Felzer, /RECESSIVE/

2001 COLORADO ALBINO,

2001 NEBRASKA SNOW: Scott Felzer

2003 2nd COLORADO ALBINO

2004 NEBRASKA RED HYPO FEMALE: John Carlson, Doug Wenzel

2005 COOK CO. (PALOS HILLS) ILLINOIS BLUE (AXANTHIC): Doug Wenzel, BREEDER: Doug Wenzel /CO-DOM, RES, AXANTHIC, DEBATED/

2006 SUPER XMAS ALBINO: Scott Felzer

2008 ILLINOIS HYPO FEMALE: Dave Odd,

2008 WAYNE CO. NEBRASKA HIGH RED: Ian Campbell

2009 BLIZZARD: Scott Felzer,

2009 DUPAGE CO. (LOMBARD, IL) AZTEC (STRIPED): Joe Peck

2010 DODGE CO. ALBINO: Chad Howser,
2010 B&W: Steve Gilfillan,

2010 GREEN: Steve Gilfillan,

2010 FREMONT CO. IOWA ALBINO: Steve Gilfillan,

2011 ORANGE NEBRASKA ALBINO: Don Dunlap,
2011 RED NEBRASKA ALBINO: Scott Felzer

COOK CO. (RIVER GROVE) ILLINOIS AZTEC (STRIPED): Shane Costello, BREEDER: Jason

RED IOWA ALBINO, BREEDER: Julio

WC RED NEBRASKA ALBINO

BROWN

[BUSHSNAKE]

the illinois albino from Wenzell was compatable with iowa strain, early 2000-01? not sure on the year but could find out for you Ric

[RicMartin]

Thanks Joe. Is there a photo of the Illinois Albino anywhere?

[BUSHSNAKE]

no, im sure it looked liked the iowa albino

[ConcinusMan]

That's why I just call them T- and T+ these days:cool:

[RicMartin]

T+ was the Nebraska albino, if I remember right.

So I guess that the Illinois & Iowa ones are both T-, if they looked the same, No?

[ConcinusMan]

Pretty much the same. And I was being facetious about the brown radix. That's just a normal. So is (olive) green, very dark (almost black), grey, etc.

[RicMartin]

Really?

[RicMartin]

Thanks for the great info.

I will be playing with different ways to display this, so that it's easier to see what's missing, or what's in error.

I think the most visual way would be creating a mini poster for each possible morph, & adding a photo credit field.
If you would like to contribute photos to this, just post them here.
I'm setting up a poster template to plug the info & photos, so there's some common design to the project.

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

shannon had a sibling to the aztec..it looked like nothing else ive seen, it only had the stripes...no pattern at all

Unfortunately, i lost it in a brumation accident. Along with many other animals. :(

[Johanna]

It would be great to have a poster like that.
I love radix morphs.
Have a few.....but it is very difficult to get some here.

[PINJOHN]

Time perhaps for an update Ric :)

[ConcinusMan]

Perhaps add the black and white radixes Steve has?

[RicMartin]

Hi guys. I'm slowly but surely back from brumation.

I only have 3 morphs, so I need people to send me pictures of their color radixes, to update the info visually.

Each poss. morph entry can be a one page poster with the info arranged over the photo. We have the info, now we need the photos.

You get bragging rights & credit for the picture in the poster. Send them up, guys.

[ConcinusMan]

Just right-click and save...

Orange T- albino produced by Don Belnap 2009. It's my understanding that orange (not red) coloring on T- albinos first popped up in captive snakes (Scott Felzer) that are decended from crossing the Illinois and Iowa T- albinos. That orange color is also now carried over to T+ nebraska's through breeding in the T+ gene into this orange line. The color is hit and miss. Some color up as they mature, some don't. The Illinois and Iowa albinos are apparently the same mutation, just different locality. I also noticed that not much attention has been paid to the fact that not all WC T+ albinos are from Nebraska. "Nebraska" seems to be nothing more that another way of saying T+ and Nebraska is just where the first T+ was found. If you go by that thinking, then the Illinois is just an Iowa. That's why I decided to stop calling them that and just say T+ or T-:cool:

http://img225.imageshack.us/img225/5576/amy047large.jpg

Same snake as a neonate. Looked like any other T-

Photo by Don Belnap
http://img19.imageshack.us/img19/9306/iowaalbinoradix.jpg

[Dan72]

With that orange color being hit and miss.... how long do you wait before you see it show up? 6mo, 1yr, longer?? Does anyone on the forum have this orange example that they would be willing to share a pic of? Awesome:eek:!!!!

[guidofatherof5]

Check out Scott F. website.
Scroll down(left side) to the listing of Plains Garters
Scott Felzer's Garter Snakes, specializing in aberrant garters (http://www.albinogartersnake.com/pricing.htm)

[Dan72]

Steve are they called/listed as hybino???

[guidofatherof5]

I wasn't sure if he(Scott F.) had one listed or not but I thought he did.
I think Don B. (ssssnakeluvr) probably has some nice photos but I think he's at a reptile show today. Hopefully he'll see this and post up some photos.

[Dan72]

Watched your feeding vids on youtube, Amy, stunning snake!! Does Don still produce these?

[ConcinusMan]

With that orange color being hit and miss.... how long do you wait before you see it show up? 6mo, 1yr, longer?? Does anyone on the forum have this orange example that they would be willing to share a pic of? Awesome:eek:!!!!

It started coming in at around 9 mos. increased gradually with each shed. Stopped coloring up at around 2 yrs old.

I believe that Amy's mother (Cariad, our forum mascot) is expecting another litter very soon. Should be some orange albinos in the litter I think. Contact Don Belnap (ssssnakeluvr) http://www.donsgartersnakes.net/

[Tommytradix]

this is a good idea he had for this thread

[Eddie]

No doubt. I have kept many breeding/birthing records over the years but have them all to myself or gone with the wind. I am trying to keep closer track this year because I am planning on new morphs never seen before. I will do me my best for heritage and ancestry facts

[AntTheDestroyer]

It is unfortunate more of these morphs and people are not still around, would certainly make the hobby more interesting.

[Tommytradix]

the people are around just not active on the forum or in richards case banned lol

[Tommytradix]

the only morph i see up there not around is the aztec. i had one born last season that looked similar to the aztec but it was a stillborn blue axanthic. you also have to take into account all the new morphs there are now. Dan krull has a white-sided the b&w gene has been proven and is in the process of creating new combination morphs. T+ blizzard. red/blue axanthics. red blizzards are in the works. hybinos. red hybinos. Radixes are looking pretty good these days lol its a shame the aztec wasnt reproduced cause it was the closest legal garter we had to the san frans and im sure a high red aztec or high red albino aztec would have been something special to look at.

[Tommytradix]

(42) Thomas Hamilton (https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=1614290772165507&set=a.1471585623102690.1073741829.100007537996748&type=3&theater)

[Tommytradix]

(42) Thomas Hamilton - Thomas Hamilton added 1,021 new photos to the... (https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=1638893733038544&set=a.1471585623102690.1073741829.100007537996748&type=3&theater)

[Tommytradix]

(42) Thomas Hamilton (https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=1737205733207343&set=a.1471591843102068.1073741830.100007537996748&type=3&theater)