What fish are safe to feed with?

[nekura]

Hey, I just caught what I'm fairly sure is a western Ribbon snake two days ago. He's only 5 inches long and very thin so he can't eat large things yet. He did eat a minnow I gave him yesterday, but then it turned out to have been a flathead which I'm now aware can be harmful. Since I live in the south I have a lot of family members that go fishing. Often they catch shrimp, flounders, and other gulf fresh or brine water fish that could probably be cut up into steaks until he gets bigger, but I'm not sure which fish have thiaminase other than catfish, goldfish, and flathead minnows. My local pet store doesn't carry guppies or any other species of minnow, but I currently do have a frozen flounder that I'm never going to eat, so would that be alright to feed him with?

[chris-uk]

A snake owner for less than a week and I can offer some advice :).

From what I've read flounder is OK.

There's a good article here:
Thiaminase (http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ca/volume_6/volume_6_1/thiaminase.htm)

Although there are also articles online that suggest that flounder can contain thiaminase, the balance seems to be that it doesn't. From the reading I've done salmon and tilapia are definitely safe fish, but that doesn't help you get rid of the flounder in your freezer.

[guidofatherof5]

In my opinion if there is no evidence that a specific fish is safe it should be consider unsafe.
http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/husbandry/6654-safe-fish-list.html

[chris-uk]

I should have guessed there'd be a list on this forum. I'd always err on the side of caution too, although isn't that safe fish list based on a book published in 1982 Steve? Having said that, there doesn't seem to be a lot of newer research, it seems that thiaminase in fish isn't of any great scientific interest outside of feeding predatory fish and snakes.
I plan to stick with salmon. Of course, if our little friends would eat cooked food it wouldn't matter what fish you fed them as heat breaks down the thiaminase.

[RedSidedSPR]

So far, I've found the best to be Tilapia, and silversides. Salmon just doesn't work for me, and my snakes don't like it all that much. Guppies, i would think would have a higher risk (parasites especially) than frozen/thawed fillets... but are considered safe. Same with rosy red minnows. Parasite, and thiamnaise risk. (although I'm not completely convinced of the thiamnaise being that bad in minnows)

Steves right, fish are a risk.

[RedSidedSPR]

Of course, if our little friends would eat cooked food it wouldn't matter what fish you fed them as heat breaks down the thiaminase.

They do eat it.

It destroys thaiamnaise, yes, but it destroys so many good things too (among other things), it apperantly isn't worth it.

http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/wiki-discussions/5893-cooking-fish.html
http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/general-talk/9066-cooking-fish.html

[d_virginiana]

Also, when you get tilapia or salmon filets from stores, it's good to get in the habit of freezing them for a certain amount of time before you feed them to eliminate the risk of parasites. I don't know how long you're supposed to freeze for, but someone else will probably chime in with that :)


(although I'm not completely convinced of the thiamnaise being that bad in minnows)


Probably not a very high concentration, but the majority of the people who I've seen talking about snakes that have the symptoms of B1 deficiency usually have ribbons, which are the really big fish eaters. If I were to just guess, I'd say it'd probably not enough to hurt a garter being fed a balanced diet, but it could cause issues with a snake fed nothing but rosy reds.

[RedSidedSPR]

Forgot to mention that, my thoughts exactly. Rosies are NOT an a staple by know means. That I'm sure would hurt.

[guidofatherof5]

This whole Thiaminase debate is good but we do know that
Thiaminase is deadly and we should do our part to make sure none of our animals die from the problem it causes.

[RedSidedSPR]

Definitely. I never meant it like you should take it lightly, you shouldn't. It's deadly and should be avoided.

And I would never say what I said about goldfish, you just can't feed those, I don't care who you are. I just think minnows are LESS of a risk, but by all means are dangerous.

Thiamnaise will kill you snake. 'Nuff said.

[nekura]

Alright thanks guys. I ended up eating the flounder myself after finding salmon steaks at wal-mart with no added ingredients. The little guy circled the dish for quite awhile but didn't eat. I may try Tilapia steaks if this doesn't work out.. but it really seems like no bait stores sell anything around here that's safe. No guppies, no silversides.

[hjelte]

I agree with Steve, there´s no use in experimenting on our snakes. Feed them what we know for sure is safe food.

[nekura]

I have another question while this thread is up, I noticed he has a tiny bump on the left side of his neck. It's so small you have to look from an above view to see it. Since I just caught him from the wild I don't have any previous history to give. I do know my dog had been after him, but as far as I know I didn't think the dog had clawed him. There wasn't blood or anything.

EDIT: Oh, one more thing. I heard you can't use heating rocks because they'll burn themselves, but is there some sort of low-powered heating rock that wouldn't have the heat to actively burn the snake? My current heating is a little awkward until I get a mesh covering for a 10 gallon tank I just got tonight. Though as I'm in the deep south there's no immediate worry about him getting too cold. I would just like him to be comfortable.

[guidofatherof5]

Hard to say what that bump could be. Could be an old injury, swollen lymph node, insect bite or many other things.
Keep an eye on it for swelling or seepage.
Any chance we could see a photo.

[BLUESIRTALIS]

I would like to see a photo if you could im with steve on this it could be anything from an old injury, lymph node, blister, raised scales from mites, flukes and lots of other things so a pic would help. I would like to make a suggestion on the feeding thing the fish you buy at the market like salmon or tilapia is great food but it smells different and some wild caught snakes want take it at first so what you need to do is cut a strip the size you need to feed the snake and then scent it with a minnow like the ones he already ate.

[Mrs N1ntndo]

I feed my snakes and there babies still but I feed them worms with either Salmon or Tilapia. They like both kinds of fish and theses are the only fish Ive giving them so far cause they were really cheap to get for me and they were already frozen from my local grocery store. You said your snake didnt eat it but did you try using Hemostates to feed your snake cause my babies will for the most part only eat the fish from those and not laid down on something.Sometimes they will eat it if it fell off the hemos but usally I need to pick it back up. Just something mine do that maybe you can try.

[amattel]

I raise mollies for mine until I switch them over to pinkies.

I have some guppies in there too.

[nekura]

I can't get a picture until my mom figures out how to email Iphone photos to me. This could takes weeks, lol. But nah I'll do it tomorrow.

He wasn't eating so I but a red rosy in there and he instantly devoured that thing, making me quite sure I MUST find guppies or some other small feeder fish to give him, but Petsmart and Petco don't sell anything but toxis red rosies to kill everyone's reptiles with. It baffles me. Then they won't sell the small fish they have since they weren't meant for food.

I mad.

I did buy him a big new pretty cage and basking lamp though. He's very curious for a wild caught I just got 4 days ago. He's wandering about and basking and such, not shy at all.

EDIT: Do you need a filter if you raise guppies/mollies/whatever for their tank? I put the excess minnows in a kiddy pool outside we had for the dogs.

[guidofatherof5]

Have you tried worms/night crawlers?

[snakehill]

Here's a question. I am going to the feed/bait store down the street in a little bit. What small live fish should I be looking for that would be okay for a garter? :confused:

[guidofatherof5]

Probably nothing. Even if they had the Thiaminase-free minnows(which I doubt) then there is the high parasite load most bait store fish carry.
I wouldn't recommend getting any of them.
Just my opinion;)

[snakehill]

Doesn't anyone ever sell LIVE Silversides? I would hate to by frozen and have them go to waste!:confused:

[guidofatherof5]

Buy them frozen and separate them out into smaller portions.
Just an idea.;)

[luke.B]

Tilapia works great if you can get them to take it. if not try some Mosquito Fish (Gambusia holbrooki) if you live in the south. they can be found were pound supply are sold most of the time. one of my fav. to used but you never here much about them.

[guidofatherof5]

My pet store only sells Gambusia now.
Very invasive species.
Eastern mosquitofish - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gambusia_holbrooki)

[nekura]

Have you tried worms/night crawlers?
He's a Western Ribbon snake and from what I read they don't eat worms. I had put a worm in there with him as soon as I got him but no dice.


EDIT: Those mosquito fish look great. I'm in the far south, could you suggest any chains that would sell them?

EDIT2: Hah! You can order them off e-bay. I might end up doing this if I can't find anything else. Plus my parents are building a pond and are going to want some of these anyway.

[snakehill]

Okay so when I googled silversides it stated that shiners are silversides but shiners are on the unsafe fish list! What is up with that??

[guidofatherof5]

[QUOTE=nekura;180504]He's a Western Ribbon snake and from what I read they don't eat worms. I had put a worm in there with him as soon as I got him but no dice.

I scent night crawlers and my Ribbon takes them.

[nekura]

Okay I got the pictures.. it's a really tiny bump and really this is the only angle you can even see it from:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v326/nekura_Shimo/snakey.jpg


I also went and caught a lot of small fish but have no idea what they are. Any ideas?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v326/nekura_Shimo/minnow2.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v326/nekura_Shimo/minnow.jpg

[guidofatherof5]

It's hard to say what that bump is.
At this point I would just keep an eye one it. It might go away with the next shed.

I'm no good at fish ID.
That must have been some small rod and reel you caught that on :D

[nekura]

I think they may be guppies! What do you think?
Endlers U.S.A. :: View topic - Philippine wild Guppies (http://endlers-usa.com/viewtopic.php?t=289&sid=4da6556b1294e591ae5e5a98a98087ae)
The second picture in particular. I browsed through minnows and saw nothing that looked similar.

@guidofatherof5 (http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/members/guidofatherof5.html)

Nope, it's called cajun fishing. You take a net and you go stomping around in ditches to see what interesting things you find. This was a favorite activity when I was a child and I still enjoyed it immensely even though I had to sanitize myself after rolling around in dirt and mud =D. We saw a baby loggerhead turtle and a water moccasin (not a snake I'd catch) while wading around our local rural ditches and gullies. The moccasin actually sat around and watched us about 7 feet away, we kept the water between him and us but he was really pretty. We were kinda stealing his food anyway. This was all from relatively very small bodies of water near gravel roads.

Unfortunately its dove season and everyone was shooting and making loud noises. I also happen to love doves since the pet one I had was the absolute best bird I've ever raised. She'd sit in your lap and coo when you rubbed her. So that was the one downside. And I mean people were shooting EVERYWHERE around us. I was worried a stray bullet might hit us or something.

EDIT: OH OH I FORGOT THE BEST PART. When I got back home and was sorting through the fish and cleaning (we also accidentally caught two perches =D) our snake killing dog was goin crazy by some grass so I want over there to investigate, and wouldn't you know I see a baby ribbon snake's head poking up at me. I picked him up. Same size as the one in the picture above and located relatively in the same location of the yard so they were probably siblings. So I went ahead and put him in the terrarium too.

[guidofatherof5]

Thanks for explaining things to me.;)
Sounds like a fun time. The baby Loggerhead had to be cool.
Dove are awesome.

[nekura]

Oh, this site also shows wild guppies towards the bottom. Looks just like it. All my life I called these things minnows.. colorful tropical fish pictures, Poecilia reticulata, guppy (http://badmanstropicalfish.com/gallery/live_b/reticulata.html)

And it was fun =) My mom drove (she's in a postal service truck with drivers seat on right side) so we both hung our heads out the window until we found a ditch with interesting things.

[nekura]

Since I caught those in the wild they may have parasites. Is it safe to feed snakes fish that have been treated with anti-parasite medication? Is there a certain time I should wait?

[kibakiba]

I wouldn't treat the fish with anything, the chemicals can harm your snake. What you could do, though, is freeze them for 3 weeks at 0 degrees, it really helps with the parasite load.

[guidofatherof5]

Since I caught those in the wild they may have parasites. Is it safe to feed snakes fish that have been treated with anti-parasite medication? Is there a certain time I should wait?

You might need to contact the maker of the fish med. with that question.

[luke.B]

it is a gambusia for sure. it looks like a Gambusia holbrooki. Global Species : Gambusia holbrooki (Bore-drain fish; Eastern gambusia; Eastern mosquito fish; Eastern mosquitofish; Gambies; Gambusia; Mosquitofish; Plague minnow; Starling's perch; Top minnow) (http://www.globalspecies.org/ntaxa/683807) or maybe a gambusia affinis. western mosquitofish (Gambusia affinis) - FactSheet (http://nas.er.usgs.gov/queries/factsheet.aspx?SpeciesID=846) if he is a wc snake, and has not been tread for parasite. it might be ok to feed untried fish to him. i would treat some of them and used the ones you treated to start a breeding group. they pump lots of live baby's out fast just like guppies. and have 5 to 100 baby's every time. i keep a 100 gal stock tank of them on my back porch. as many as i used i never run out and i only put like 50 in it wen i set it up. but i would only uses the baby not the tread fish to feed to be safe

[nekura]

it is a gambusia for sure. it looks like a Gambusia holbrooki. Global Species : Gambusia holbrooki (Bore-drain fish; Eastern gambusia; Eastern mosquito fish; Eastern mosquitofish; Gambies; Gambusia; Mosquitofish; Plague minnow; Starling's perch; Top minnow) (http://www.globalspecies.org/ntaxa/683807) or maybe a gambusia affinis. western mosquitofish (Gambusia affinis) - FactSheet (http://nas.er.usgs.gov/queries/factsheet.aspx?SpeciesID=846) if he is a wc snake, and has not been tread for parasite. it might be ok to feed untried fish to him. i would treat some of them and used the ones you treated to start a breeding group. they pump lots of live baby's out fast just like guppies. and have 5 to 100 baby's every time. i keep a 100 gal stock tank of them on my back porch. as many as i used i never run out and i only put like 50 in it wen i set it up. but i would only uses the baby not the tread fish to feed to be safe

Awesome. Sounds like a good plan. Unfortunately the whole batch died because I didn't give them time to get used to the pond water so I caught another batch (the water moccasin was still there too XD) and are slowly introducing them to the water. Do they need an air pump or anything?

EDIT: I caught one of the snakes trying to eat some of the salmon steak I put in! But stupid me had it too big and by the time the snake took interest in it it had dried out and wasn't very edible. The cage is right by my computer and they're too shy to come our while I'm around. =(

[luke.B]

its not a must have just a good filter does the trick for them

[Mrs N1ntndo]

exactly what kind of guppies are in the 100gal tank and are those the ones that need a ppump? If I dont have a pump will they die with out one.

[kibakiba]

All guppies need a pump. It improves their life a lot more It pretty much just aerates the water, keeping the water breathable for them. That is what I was told.

[nekura]

Well it turns out they are mosquito fish and I'm keeping them outside in a homemade pond made from a kiddy pool. One of them already gave birth to fry. What medication should I treat the parent fish with? I caught these fish out of a local ditch, likewise I caught these ribbon snakes locally as well so they were probably already exposed to whatever it around here.


EDIT: I would also like to note that while setting this all up I received about 100 mosquito bites and am rubbing anti-itch cream all over me like sun-tan lotion. Those mosquito fish are going to get fat fast.

[thamneil]

You could probably treat the parents in a quarantine tank using a mild fish medication and aquarium salt. Email the company for details on the meds. I know that both pimafix and melafix are safe for use afterwards as long as the fish have time to work it out of their systems. After your fish have finished the "treatment" throw them in a tank of some sort. Fill it up with plants and you should have a baby factory!