Albino butlers found.Going to a museum eventually.

[snakeman]

Field Herp Forum • View topic - Albino Butlers Garter & Case Closed (http://www.fieldherpforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=8001)

[Chondro788]

Awesome snake!!! Too bad we will not see this albino become established in the hobby.

[RedSidedSPR]

Wow... that's awesome.

Yeah, was thinking th same thing.

[guidofatherof5]

Beautiful snake.

[Starling96]

why put him in a museum?

[Chondro788]

It kinda sounded like a nature center, and since this is a one of a kind animal, I'm sure they will love to have it on display for the public to see.

[Starling96]

Oh
well i'd want to breed the little guy
lol

[RedSidedSPR]

Yeah, it's a shame it's not going to a breeder, but at least it's not some dummy keeping it. Maybe it will end up with someone after awile in the museum.

[Starling96]

Yea hopefully
A museum seems like a stressful life.
well atleast being on display to the general public

[RedSidedSPR]

Well they get used to the movement. Mine couldn't care less if I'm peering in on them. As long as he's kept well etc, the whole "general public" life shouldn't be that bad...

[Starling96]

Yea mine is pretty cage shy

[RedSidedSPR]

Mine were too, but they get used to it. Mine don't flinch when you open the cage, the don't every freak out, they actually just look up at me when I interact.

Maybe I just have spoiled snakes...

[PINJOHN]

there is not a lot better than being given the chance to share someones herping adventures, great photo's and very informative, a massive thanks to you snakeman for putting this up for us

[ConcinusMan]

Yeah, awesome snake!

[BUSHSNAKE]

Cool! i dig butleri...just got some, and that thing im assuming came out of Wisconsin which is also awesome

[annulataarethebest]

Very cool for sure, I assume a albino Shorthead garter snake would look very similar to that. Which is pretty cool to know since I've wanted to run across a albino of one of those for 15 years lol

[ConcinusMan]

Define "similar". There's no reason to assume they would look near the same.

[jitami]

Very cool snake & thread. Thanks for sharing it!

[annulataarethebest]

Define "similar". There's no reason to assume they would look near the same.

Personal experience with the species gives me reason enough to assume such, that young albino butlers garter looks very much like a shorthead. So that would be the reasoning for my post.

[ConcinusMan]

Personal experience with the species gives me reason enough to assume such, that young albino butlers garter looks very much like a shorthead. So that would be the reasoning for my post.


My mistake. You said "assume"


Very cool for sure, I assume a albino Shorthead garter snake would look very similar to that. Which is pretty cool to know since I've wanted to run across a albino of one of those for 15 years lol

Then you can imagine how long I've been waiting (32 years) for someone, anyone even if it isn't me, to come up with an albino concinnus. I'm beginning to think there are none.:(

[ConcinusMan]

disregard

[annulataarethebest]

Then you can imagine how long I've been waiting (32 years) for someone, anyone even if it isn't me, to come up with an albino concinnus. I'm beginning to think there are none.:(

Who knows... I'm sure the genetics are in one of them somewhere, a albino red spotted would be insane looking. Hopefully someone does find one one day.

[ssssnakeluvr]

Who knows... I'm sure the genetics are in one of them somewhere, a albino red spotted would be insane looking. Hopefully someone does find one one day.
there was a pic of one years ago on the original thamnophis.com... was a sweet looking snake! I wasn't able to copy it tho :(

[ConcinusMan]

Then it didn't happen. There is no confirmed documented specimen of T. s. concinnus albino ever recorded. It was probably a parietalis, infernalis, hybrid, or something like that.

Only two albino T. ordinoides ever recorded. A third was found last summer. If that isn't rare enough, there are none for concinnus.

With that NW albino we could have created erythristic albinos, snows from melanstics, etc. That's not speculation at all. That's what slipped away.

I'm really glad to hear that this butlers wasn't a complete loss. At least the world gets to see it. No doubt that they will never let it breed though.

[Jeff B]

Neat snake, hope it is kept alive in the "museum"

[ConcinusMan]

The guy who found it is definitely and experienced herp keeper and the DNR gave him permission to raise it to adulthood. I'm pretty sure the museum can take good care of it after that. It should live a full life.

[sschind]

The guy who found it is definitely and experienced herp keeper and the DNR gave him permission to raise it to adulthood. I'm pretty sure the museum can take good care of it after that. It should live a full life.

I've known Carl for about 10 years now and if anyone has the dedication to keep that little bugger alive it's him. I have yet to see him since he has acquired this snake but I think it's about time I finagle an invitation to his house. I'll use my "can you brumate my pyros again this year Carl" excuse and then drop them off.

If you are into eastern hog nose snakes at all check out some of Carls other threads on FHF and WIreptiles. He has some pretty cool pictures about them as well. His hohnose articles have been published in HerpNation and the Chicago herp society magazine.

[ConcinusMan]

Yeah, I've been checking out his threads/posts at FHF for about a year now. Awesome stuff.

[Eddie]

I remember that pic of the albino concinnus on the original forum. That pic inspired me to get my first red spots. It looked just like a red spot to me. Too bad we never saw off spring from it.
Ed

[RedSidedSPR]

Really? They exist? Have been captured on camera???

[Carl Koch]

Hello everyone! I saw sschind today and he mentioned that my FHF post about the albino Butlers garter had been discussed here, so I registered. Thanks Steve and ConcinnusMan (http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/members/concinnusman.html) for the shout-outs! I've been becoming more and more intrigued with garters lately, so it's fitting that I start checking out this forum.

Carl

[PINJOHN]

Hello everyone! I saw sschind today and he mentioned that my FHF post about the albino Butlers garter had been discussed here, so I registered. Thanks Steve and ConcinnusMan (http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/members/concinnusman.html) for the shout-outs! I've been becoming more and more intrigued with garters lately, so it's fitting that I start checking out this forum.

Carl
Welcome from a sun challenged Liverpool

http://www.liv.ac.uk/researchintelligence/issue34/images/Liverpool_waterfront.jpg

[guidofatherof5]

Nice to see you on the forum.
Anytime you want to drop by the Ranch and photograph my snakes you are more than welcome too. Please :D

[katach]

Welcome to the forum family!

[ConcinusMan]

Great to have you here.

[sschind]

Just a quick update, I got to see the Albino Butlers last night. Pretty cool and coming from a guy who does not like morphs (as Carl will attest to) that's saying something. In fact I was more impressed by the baby radix he had. I never realized they were such neat looking animals.

[guidofatherof5]

I would love to see an albino Butler's (T.butleri).
Any chance we can see it and the baby T.radix?

[sschind]

I'll see if I can get Carl to post a picture He may even see this if he subscribes to this thread. It's just a little guy but he has very nice clean lines.

[ConcinusMan]

You didn't see it already Steve? I first heard about it on field herp forum and saw the picture. It looks pretty much just like the albino northwestern. Not surprising being how butler's are one of the northwestern's closest relatives, along with santa cruz garters.(determined by DNA analysis)

Here it is. Albino Butler's. The actual specimen this thread is about.

http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6200/6107304999_b247ec7ecc_b.jpg
Photo by Carl Koch

more photos and discussion here:
Field Herp Forum • View topic - Albino Butlers Garter & Case Closed (http://www.fieldherpforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=8001&hilit=albino+butler%27s+garter+snake)

[EasternGirl]

That's very pretty.

[ConcinusMan]

Indeed it is. Here's the albino northwestern for comparison. The northwestern is too young right now to know what color it's stripes will turn out to be, but if they turn out yellow, these two albinos will look very much alike.

http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/attachments/garter-snake-lounge/3360d1322259027-i-found-albino-garden-snake-img_1470.jpg

EDIT: actually, this northwestern's stripes are looking yellow.

[ConcinusMan]

Butler's again:

http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6075/6107857220_23f5c0dd12_b.jpg

[RedSidedSPR]

Second doesn't show.

[RedSidedSPR]

The butlers is awesome. Glad to see the updates. Glad to have Carl here too! Welcome!

[ConcinusMan]

Second doesn't show.

Give it a chance and/or do a hard refresh. I did notice that the server it's on is quite slow.

[EasternGirl]

They're both very pretty...but the Butler's is particularly stunning.

[ConcinusMan]

True. Chances are the northwestern is far from done coloring up though. Yellows, orange, red... always start out faint or non existent on northwesterns and the color comes in gradually over 6-12 months. I just mainly wanted to point out the obvious similarities. If I had found the butlers in Portland, Oregon, I would have sworn it was a northwestern.;)

[Carl Koch]

Thanks for the welcomes, everyone! I'll take some pics of the baby radix in the next few days and post them.

Carl

[Carl Koch]

Here are some shots of my li’l plains. Plains garters hybridize with Butler’s garters in the area this individual came from, and though I with my limited experience see no evidence of Butler’s influence in this snake, I plan to show it to a experienced researcher who may I.D. it as a hybrid.


[/URL]http://www.flickr.com/photos/kochiedust/6527521377/] (http://http://www.flickr.com/photos/kochiedust/6527521377/]http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7035/6527521377_f51721a767_b.jpg")http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7035/6527521377_f51721a767_b.jpg[/URL]
http://www.flickr.com/photos/kochiedust/6527521377/]PC170028 (http://PC170028")[/URL] by [/URL]http://www.flickr.com/people/kochiedust/]Carl (http://Carl") Koch, on Flickr


http://www.flickr.com/photos/kochiedust/6527517387/] (http://http://www.flickr.com/photos/kochiedust/6527517387/]http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7011/6527517387_d50efcc7e8_b.jpg")http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7011/6527517387_d50efcc7e8_b.jpg[/URL]
http://www.flickr.com/photos/kochiedust/6527517387/]PC170032 (http://PC170032")[/URL] by [/URL]http://www.flickr.com/people/kochiedust/]Carl (http://Carl") Koch, on Flickr


http://www.flickr.com/photos/kochiedust/6527525171/] (http://http://www.flickr.com/photos/kochiedust/6527525171/]http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7144/6527525171_804ae076be_b.jpg")http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7144/6527525171_804ae076be_b.jpg[/URL]
http://www.flickr.com/photos/kochiedust/6527525171/]PC170035 (http://PC170035")[/URL] by [/URL]http://www.flickr.com/people/kochiedust/]Carl (http://Carl") Koch, on Flickr


http://www.flickr.com/photos/kochiedust/6527529795/] (http://http://www.flickr.com/photos/kochiedust/6527529795/]http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7163/6527529795_2f8e039b49_b.jpg")http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7163/6527529795_2f8e039b49_b.jpg[/URL]
http://www.flickr.com/photos/kochiedust/6527529795/]PC170041 (http://PC170041")[/URL] by [/URL]http://www.flickr.com/people/kochiedust/]Carl (http://[URL="http://www.flickr.com/people/kochiedust/]Carl") Koch, on Flickr


Thanks for looking!


Carl

[guidofatherof5]

Good looking snake.
Looks like a brown phase T.radix to me.

[ConcinusMan]

Yeah, looks like a perfectly normal T. radix. Often times, local natural selection can cause two different species to develop similar characteristics, (convergent micro evolution) even if they aren't hybridizing or genetically the same. I see evidence of this in the south end of the Puget Sound near Olympia, WA. Puget sound garters in that area are very blue. Many northwestern garters in the area are also intense blue, even though no hybridizing is going on.

It's therefore not surprising at all that the butlers and radixes in your area may share similar color/pattern.

[guidofatherof5]

I'd love a head scale count. Any chance of getting a good close up showing the scales of the upper and lower lip areas.

The supralabial count on that snake is 8. T.radix (Plains Garter) is usually 8 or 9. T.butleri (Butler's Garter) is 7 or 6
Sorry about asking for so many photos. Love seeing any radixes. ;)

[Carl Koch]

No problem, I'll take some close-ups tomorrow!

[guidofatherof5]

No problem, I'll take some close-ups tomorrow!

Great. Thanks.

[kibakiba]

That head is tiny, it makes him look cuter... :D

[ConcinusMan]

The supralabial count on that snake is 8. T.radix (Plains Garter) is usually 8 or 9. T.butleri (Butler's Garter) is 7 or 6


That's what they say about T. sirtalis vs. T. ordinoides in WA too, but I constantly find that the scale counts don't follow the rules.:cool:

[RedSidedSPR]

That's a really cool looking radix Carl!

[Selkielass]

Beautiful animal. I wish I could arrange for some of my girls to visit him one spring.

Butlers are easy keepers, and adapt readily to high stimulus environments. Our local (Michigan) strain thrives in schools and nature centers. They 'freeze' when suspicious so they make great display snakes if given twigs to sun on, and they hold tight to fingers when handled, so they seldom bolt out of inexperienced hands to injure themselves or get lost.

The thrashing response you read about is a great way for a snake sunning in brush to disappear if surprised by a predator, but they give it up almost as quickly as they give up musking- in the case of those I've handled usually shortly after they start feeding while a human is nearby.

[EasternGirl]

That actually looks exactly like Cee Cee. Do we have radixes in Delaware? What is the supralabial count on an eastern? I need to go count Cee Cee's scales.

[guidofatherof5]

Do we have radixes in Delaware? What is the supralabial count on an eastern? I need to go count Cee Cee's scales.

Only the ones I'll be sending you.
Page 236.
http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/medium/radix_range1.gif

Supralabials usually 7.
Dorsal scales in a maximum of 19 rows. Page 260

You have "The Book" now, right? I thought you got it for Christmas.
Referring to The Garter Snakes-Evolution and Ecology by Rossman, Ford and Seigel

[Selkielass]

Anyone heard how this little fellow is doing, or if he is on display?

[ConcinusMan]

The guy who found it and was given permission to keep it for a time, is more active on field herp forum than he is here. Maybe look there for updates, but last I heard, the snake was doing well. I would log in and ask for an update but I can't remember my password. I'll get around to fixing that eventually.

[ProXimuS]

Wow, this snake is awesome. Never seen an albino Butler's.

[Selkielass]

I really wish one would pop up in Michigan, so I left could try to start a line of easily identifiable captive bred Butlers. The smaller, worm eating snakes are a big hit with teachers, but state protections make things tricky.

[ConcinusMan]

Not just tricky, but impossible. The only reasons this one is going into captivity is that it's albino, and for educational reasons. It will not be allowed to breed in captivity or in the wild. Being in a museum ensures that.

[Selkielass]

Impossible in Ohio, Wisconsin and Canada.
Possible, but restricted in Michigan. Michigan butlers may be kept in other states /areas that permit keeping non native species.
It's a shame this fellows genes aren't likely to get out.

[ConcinusMan]

It's quite probable that they already are (it took both parents to contribute the gene, and there are probably surviving siblings) but only the finder (and perhaps DNR) knows the exact location.

[Selkielass]

Yeah, but still stuck in that location- no removing snakes for captive breeding programs and landowners wouldn't want a breed and release program there because the presence of Butlers severely restricts land use and development.

Well, I can still hope an albino gene turns up in my local population. Is a faint hope, but well...

[ConcinusMan]

Yeah, but still stuck in that location- no removing snakes for captive breeding programs and landowners wouldn't want a breed and release program there because the presence of Butlers severely restricts land use and development.

Doesn't really matter that the land developers wouldn't want a breed and release program because neither do the people responsible for conserving the snakes. Captive breeding and releasing does nothing to help the species. In fact, it can so plenty to hurt them. They would only do that if they're on the edge of abyss. As in, no hope of recovery or sustainability. As in, past the point of no return on their own. Look what they did with the California Condor. Even then, they didn't do captive breeding and release into the wild. All they did was collect eggs already in the wild, and then make sure they survived before releasing them. Even if they did this with the snakes, it wouldn't be a good idea. And that's because it does more harm than good to increase a population when the habitat already supports all the numbers it can.