Dog bit wild garter

[dieselbaby]

Hi everyone, I'm new to the forum, and a new snake caretaker. This afternoon while i was out moving livestock panels our dog found a garter snake, she bit and shook the snake, and i intervened on the snakes behalf as i like these snakes. I have spent all afternoon reading the forum, and here is a little background, the snake has a puncture wound from where the dog bit it, and it bled some, but we got it cleaned up, and polysporin put on the wound. The bleeding has stopped and the snake appears alert and has tongue flicking, and readily hisses at us. He/she isnt moving around a whole bunch since i am assuming he/she is in pain but when he/she does move around the movement seems normal.

I have he/she in i believe a 20 gallon aquarium with a canopy and florescent light, now i know this will need to be replaced with mesh and a heat lamp but that will have to wait til payday. The inside temp is 77F uniformly, i will try and bring that temp up a bit on at least one side. I have provided a hide, and a large dish of water, and in half of the aquarium, i have plain white papertowels, but for the other half i have fresh picked grass. He/she prefers the grass side. I put the grass in for padding for the injury.

My question is how often should i be changing out the grass to keep it fresh and clean, and is grass okay to use at least til he/she heals? I plan to catch some earthworms later on this evening for our new friend. I am going to try and post a picture of our new friend in hopes someone can tell me what kind of garter snake we have here, also our area is northwestern Ontario, Canada.

Thank you in advance for any advice.
Judy

[guidofatherof5]

Welcome to the forum Judy.
Thanks for taking the time to care for this snake.
I'm sure the grass is not needed. Having this snake on paper towels is a good thing as it lets you see feces and any blood. Grass can introduce insects/parasites into an enclosure.
Sounds like you're taking good care of the wounds. Nice job.;)
I think you have a Thamnophis sirtalis sirtalis (Eastern garter snake).

I do have a concern. In the photo I see a very shinny section near the snakes cloaca/vent. Is that area still there? Any chance you can post another photo of this area?
I will also post a link to the care sheet which is a great place to start your journey in garter snakes.
Please keep us posted on your progress.
Garter Snake Care Sheet - Caresheets (http://www.thamnophis.com/caresheets/index.php?title=Garter_Snake_Care_Sheet)

[dieselbaby]

Okay i will take out the grass tomorrow when i clean his/her aquarium. That brown shiney thing is a wet leaf but yes i can post more pics, i took a whole bunch, but none of the underside as he/she gets very agitated when touched right now so only touching for washing and ointment, but i will try and get underside pics as well.

The close up picture is where the wound is.

[dieselbaby]

Oh, and thank you for your reply. any advice is much appreciated. I would love to find out if this is a male or female as well. My kids want to name him/her and keep it for a pet. I said we would see how well he/she does. I did read and save a copy of the care sheets thank you. I did give him a worm this evening but he wasnt interested, but he has been drinking, and still tongue flicking.

also the pink thing in the one pic is a piece of worm i have since removed, and the pigeon egg was to see what he would do with it, he rolled it around a bit, its now removed as well as i dont want it to rot in there.

[guidofatherof5]

From your subsequent photos I think you have a female there.
An underside tail photo would be great to confirm the sex.
He's a link to a thread to show what kind of photos are need for that.
http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/breeding/5069-sexing-pics.html (http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/breeding/5069-sexing-pics.html)
I don't see the skinny area in the other photos so I guess it was just something in that first photo.
Hoping your new friend makes a complete recovery.;)

Drinking and tongue flicking is an indication of good health at this point. Nice observation.

[ConcinusMan]

I'm sure Steve meant the grass is NOT needed but you figured that out already. Best to just clean the snake up with some antiseptic and keep in paper towels and as clean and dry as possible. Iodine works best for wounds but any antiseptic is better than nothing.

If there's any internal damage, all you can do is wait and see if the snake makes it. Alert, tongue flicking, drinking, all good signs. Garters can be pretty tough. An injured snake should have warmth though, 24/7 if you can manage it. Somewhere in the range of 78-85.

He'll probably be alright. I've seen them survive a lot worse. Like broken back and ribs, huge areas of missing hide, ribs exposed, etc.

[dieselbaby]

Thanks again i was searching for the place where that info was posted. When she is feeling a lil better i will get some good pics for that. Thanks again for the help. I hope she gets better too poor lil snake. Im a bit nervous with handling her but we'll work that out as she feels better. Its been a pretty frightening day for her.

[ConcinusMan]

If she seems like she can move normally and fast, you can just release her and she'll be fine. If you feel it's better to let her heal for a week or three, keep her warm, clean, and comfy and try not to disturb her. Make sure she has a place to hide and feels secure. That will help speed her recovery. I know it seems counter intuitive but don't feed an injured garter. Let her fast. That's best.

[dieselbaby]

I used vetericyn to clean the wound out, as thats what i have on hand and use on all the animals and us humans too, its awesome stuff, and then applied the ointment, it has since rubbed off on the papertowels. How often should i apply the ointment, i was assuming at least twice a day?

I got the temp to come up inside the aquarium to 79F so far. I do need to clean the glass better on it to, i did a rush cleaning/disinfecting job on it to get the snake safe.

Ill be heading to the petstore this weekend to pick up a mesh cover, and heat light for her to make sure she is warm enough. I get paid friday. The kids found some nice smooth round rocks too that i plan to put in after i wash them.

[dieselbaby]

she seems to move normally but is moving slower then most snakes ive seen. She has her little cave but she seems to prefer to lay out on the grass, and goes back and forth from the water to the grass.

[katach]

Sounds like you are doing a great job! Thank you for caring so much. Also, welcome to the forum, it's very nice to have you!

[dieselbaby]

Thank you for all the welcomes. I think im becoming fond of the snake. I been watching her for hours and reading all i can on here.

[ConcinusMan]

Can't really blame you. she is a garter snake after all.:D

[d_virginiana]

Welcome to the forum! Sounds like you're doing a good job :) Keep us updated on how she's doing.

Also, is it just me, or does that snake not seem to have much of a pattern on its back? idk, just looks a bit different from the very 'busy' patterns I typically see on easterns. Maybe it's regional or something. Regardless, she's a very nice looking snake :)

[dieselbaby]

she is pretty cute isnt she. She looks like alot of the ones i see around here so maybe it is a regional thing. I see them quite often out in the yard, and out in my field. This could be the same one that likes to hide under my haybales and under my pallets i use to store grain on.

[dieselbaby]

Well, morning update, well okay its almost noon here. The lil snake is quite still this morning but still tongue flicking and looking around, i am assuming she is still because the temp dropped to 75F overnight in her tank, i have added an incandescent light today shining down on her, tank is up to 80F now so hoping to see her moving around soon, and then off to town to get some needed supplies for her.Then tank cleaning and wound cleaning time. You guys were right about the grass i see small tiny flies in her tank today, has to be from the grass. Yucky. I think im going to get her some white carefresh bedding, its softish, and she can burrow in it like she does in the grass, for the grass side she has now, and then keep plain papertowel on the other side. I cant believe she wants no part in going into the hide, maybe she needs a log type one, more natural like. :)

[RedSidedSPR]

Paper towl is good for injured snakes cause you can see anything... also bedding like that can stick to any open wounds.

Glad she's doing well.

[dieselbaby]

i was just looking her over more carefully and i see not ONE but TWO puncture wounds i guess where my dogs two canines bit in. Poor thing, they are clean, not seeping or bleeding or anything. I sure hope it missed anything vital! She made it thru the night so i am assuming no organs were involved.

I was thinking of cleaning the wounds twice daily and apply the polysporin twice daily, is that enough do you think?

[dieselbaby]

I've treated alot of wounds on my dogs, cows, horses and chickens and such, but never a snake. So im sure i will have a ton of questions as i go along.. Great forum here.

[guidofatherof5]

That sounds like a good plan.
Betadine(weak tea solution) is also good on wounds.

[dieselbaby]

some more encouraging news i see poop and saw some pee on the papertowel..Yay we know that stuff is working.

[ConcinusMan]

More importantly, it's not tinged pink with blood and the snake still hasn't gone limp or lethargic. If she's made it this long, her injuries are minor.

[RedSidedSPR]

They don't pee. Poop and pee is all in one convinient bundle (like birds).

[ConcinusMan]

Not necessarily. They do drop just urates and no feces all the time.

[RedSidedSPR]

Well, technically...

[dieselbaby]

hahah okay well she pooped alot today, and there was slight yellowish staining on the papertowel i assumed was pee! got her cage temp to 82 on one side and 79 on the other. No blood in the poop, no staining of blood anywhere i can see, wounds look good. Right now shes on just plain papertowel til i go to town later this afternoon.

[RedSidedSPR]

Good, she seems like she's doing good. And like you're doing good.

[dieselbaby]

Okay its official, I am an idiot..lol... I went to the fish store and bought a mesh cover. I thought i had a 20 gallon aquarium, but stupid me didnt measure it, well apparently its not a 20 gallon, that was too short, so thought it was a 20 gallon long tank, well thats the one i bought and wouldnt ya know it. It dont fit. Its like 2 inches or more too small length wise.

However i did get a couple in tank thermometers, and i got her some carefresh natural bedding. I took her out to treat her boo boo's tonight and well she thinks shes a crocodile it seems, as she goes into a death roll while i try and put ointment on her, but i got it on her finally, and she was quite happy to get back to her clean aquarium . She is intent on biting me it seems as well.. but you cant blame her really she doesnt understand im trying to fix what my dog did to her.

So back to town tomorrow (with measurements) to get a proper top.

[guidofatherof5]

Boo boo's can be such a bother.
At least she didn't give any poo poo.:D Yet.

[dieselbaby]

This snake seems to love my youngest daughters camera and her hand, the snake is very very curious about her it seems and goes to whatever side of the aquarium my daughter is on. The snake seems to be posing for her its sooo cute. Here are some pics

Oh and we have named her Sally Snake.:)

[guidofatherof5]

Looks like your "Perfect Pixie" has a buddy.
Nice photos.;)

[dieselbaby]

some more pics, please excuse the lint on the aquarium, i ran out of papertowel and dried the aquarium with a towel.. The dish on the far side is like a stew plate its deeper then normal ones and she seems to like stretching out across it. She really seems active tonight and checking everything out and liking the carefresh bedding, digging down it in and going back and forth from the rock to the water.

[dieselbaby]

Yeah i cant believe how curious the snake is bout her, the snake will follow her from one end to the other and not acting aggressive at all. I was watching in total disbelief. I guess we know whose snake it is hahahaha

[katach]

Cute! Our snakes follow my finger around the tank all the time. They are so great!

[d_virginiana]

That's so cute! My snakes follow me when they can see/smell me bring the worm container into the room... :p

[dieselbaby]

well this girl has taken to my daughter, she tries to strike me, hisses at me, and tries to do death rolls when i try and put stuff on her boo boo's. Oh well what can i say, we will just have to deal with eachother, im not about to release her when she is injured.

forgot to add that she is also soo amusing to watch, especially after some new stuff added to her enclosure today.:D

[ConcinusMan]

forgot to add that she is also soo amusing to watch, especially after some new stuff added to her enclosure today.:D

There you have it folks. I've been saying it all along. Those "python folks" out there that pay huge sums of currency for some new BP morph and insist that garter snakes are just "beginner snakes" or "garbage snakes" really don't know what they are missing!

If you're content with an undoubtedly beautiful and large snake that sits there, then maybe big snakes are for you.

If you see value and entertainment, along with beauty, and can appreciate an active and intelligent reptile, the garters are it. No need to look any further.

[snakehill]

I am someone that has had all those "other" snakes and I absolutely agree!!!!!;)

[dieselbaby]

Garters are awesome little snakes. I just wish this one would quit trying to bite me. I love the ones i have been seeing with the pretty blue colors on them, the puget sound garters i think they are called. If i do decide to get another that is the garter i want. For now this girl will keep me busy.

I found a way to use her rolling to help wash and get her ointment on her instead of work against me she rolls against the clothes i used to wash her wounds out, then i apply the vetericyn spray, let her dry, and then use a papertowel with some polysporin on it, and let her roll while i cup it around her firmly but gently and VOILA she applies it herself.

[katach]

Way to go!

[ConcinusMan]

Of course I'm sure I don't have to remind you to apply sparingly. You don't want it getting into the mouth or nose area.

I does sound like the wounds are very minor. I think if you just keep the enclosure clean and let the wounds heal on their own without neosporin it would be better. I would stop the neosporin after 7 days or even right now if the wounds are very minor.

[dieselbaby]

as she rolls it wipes off so she ends up with a nice even light coating, her bedding doesnt even stick to it. The way i was trying to do it before i would end up with a glob on her side.. its only been a few days, and i think one of the punctures is pretty deep. I would hate for her to get infection. Shouldn't i go the full 7 days?

The wounds are down her body away from her head, so she doesnt get any near her face.

[dieselbaby]

another question, how long before i should offer her more food? It was suggested i let her fast for awhile, how long should i do this?

[snakehill]

some more pics, please excuse the lint on the aquarium, i ran out of papertowel and dried the aquarium with a towel.. The dish on the far side is like a stew plate its deeper then normal ones and she seems to like stretching out across it. She really seems active tonight and checking everything out and liking the carefresh bedding, digging down it in and going back and forth from the rock to the water.Sally looks just like my WC Eastern, they could be twins! I've only had her for a month so she is still a little feisty! She does eat like a horse! (you know what thats like!!) She is also about to shed. Good luck with her!!;)

[Mommy2many]

Can't really blame you. she is a garter snake after all.:D


What he said:D

[dieselbaby]

Well i went to petsmart and they didnt have a right sized mesh cover for my aquarium either...grrrrr.. i needed 12x32 well i ended up with a 13x48 lol bigger is better then too small right.. so now she is properly ventilated, has her basking light, and i bought her a pool, some river stones, some coco husk to mix in with her carefresh bedding, and i went and chopped down a poplar(same as aspen) tree so she can have a jungle gym.

They didnt have pinkies or i would have got some of those too, so worms for her when it is okay to feed her. She is one spoiled snake, and i sure hope she is happy as she can be in there, short of being in the wild. :D

[dieselbaby]

If she enjoys the jungle gym i will join all the pieces together and make it extremely sturdy, i shook each piece and while some pieces look like they might fall, they are wedged pretty good. Its not the prettiest, but its safe. Also when the leaves wilt i will take them out. just though the smell would remind her of the wild.

[ConcinusMan]

Just weigh down those overhanging edges with bricks or rocks, or something very heavy so there's no gaps and you'll probably be OK.

And, neosporin will not help a deep or puncture wound into which bacteria has already been introduced, presumably by the teeth of the dog. It would only keep out oxygen and encourage infection. Fortunately, dogs have much cleaner mouths than humans, when it comes to harmful microbes to cause infection.

Best to just support the snakes own immune system in the case of deep wounds. That means keeping the snake warm and hydrated. For large "cavity" type wounds, keeping it flushed with saline several times a day helps.

Snakes are highly resistant to infections from skin wounds like this. I think she'll be fine. Just don't continue the neosprorin for longer than a week. It's not necessary. Personally, I just apply iodine (povidone iodine for wounds) when it first happens, then neosporin for just a couple of days. After that, it tends to heal quickly on it's own.

[guidofatherof5]

Looks like a great set-up.

[dieselbaby]

LOL sure just when i get a system that works for applying the ointment i dont need it... just my luck.. I do spray the wounds twice daily with vetericyn, it gets right down in there its water with some other stuff in it.. I dont totally understand how it works but i use it on all my critters and its safe for eyes, nose, mouth, etc. It heals wounds quickly and with little scaring.

Anyhow, if its best i will stop the polysporin since its a pain anyhow, but i will feel better at least using the vetericyn still. for any of you who are wondering what i am talking about this is the vetericyn site Vetericyn One-step wound and infection treatment that works naturally with your animal?s immune system (http://www.vetericyn.com)

I want to see if she even likes climbing before i make adjustments, if its to be permanent i will make sure everything is very very solid, and joined together or weighted down. she doesnt seem interested at the moment she is enjoying basking under the light.

she does seem to like her new pool though..which is good. darn things cost enough.

[ConcinusMan]

Looks like a great set-up.

I thought a "set-up" (spelled like that) was when someone sets you up. Must be the law enforcement officer in you.;)

[dieselbaby]

Well now the feeding issues, she had been stalking a house fly that got into her tank, so i figured she had to be hungry. So caught her an earthworm, and she wont eat it, she stalks it, watches it crawling around in the dish, but she wont strike. Its not a big worm, and the darn worm keeps making a break for it, and then i have to wash it off and replace. She doesnt like it when it touches her and gets into a strike position but then stops and leaves again.

[guidofatherof5]

She won't eat the fly and is probably just curious.
Put the worm in a shallow dish with some moist dirt.
The worm should stay in the dish then.
Garters love to dig/hunt in dirt.

[ConcinusMan]

Not to mention that dirt has lots of beneficial probiotics in it. (lactic acid producing bacteria that aid digestion)

[dieselbaby]

wow okay, ill try that next then. its cold here today not easy finding the worms, i did find a big one and cut it up and placed on some of her rocks and in her dish. the other one is under the bedding somewhere now. Ill fish it out later.

[ConcinusMan]

I haven't been able find a worm for months but definitely not because it's cold. It's bone dry. Haven't had any significant rain in about 2 months. Now it's hot too. Big fat juicy Canadian night crawlers are available year 'round at the local variety store though. Walmart, Kroger, etc. or sporting goods stores sold as fish bait.

Dirt and worms are good. Even if you're a pinky kind of guy, worms and dirt now and then is a good idea. Without plenty of bacteria (the good kind) living in the guts of your snakes, they wouldn't be able to digest anything and that's a fact. It's the enzymes produced by bacteria that break down proteins, bone, etc.

[dieselbaby]

also, i figured she wouldnt eat the fly, but the way she was stalking it, made me think she was hungry. She hasnt ate since i, i guess you could say rescued her. I thought since she is doing so well with her injury, that she would be hungry and its been nice and toasty in her enclosure, and i read that the warmth makes them metabolize their food faster. all of which equaled feed her in my head. I do not like thinking or knowing one of my animals might be hungry.

I never understood how people can look at their skinny animals and not feel so badly for that, and not feed them. Our horses came from people like that, they were skin and bone when we got them. anyhow im rambling now, point being i hate thinking she might be hungry.

[dieselbaby]

wow you guys get our worms huh. Thats interesting, and yeah i keep seeing and hearing about all the droughts around the u.s. Its been a bad year for many. It will be warm again tomorrow after this cold front passes and i will go find a bunch, its rainy here today too so that will help bring them closer to the surface. Maybe i have to make her a "hunting enclosure"

[dieselbaby]

When you pick up a snake when its in a warm enclosure shouldnt the snake be warm? I mean i know they are cold blooded, but being in 80F temps shouldnt the snake feel warm to the touch? Sally feels cold. Im all worried again.

[guidofatherof5]

Are you suppling a heat source?

[dieselbaby]

Yes she has a heat lamp over one half of the tank on the side that stays in around 80-84F and just reg florescent canopy lights over the rest to keep the heat in, other side where the pool is stays bout 75F

[dieselbaby]

also im noticing her bottom half, second half, um from her middle point down to her tail, appears to be not moving like her top half. She seems to be dragging it somewhat and gets getting stuck when trying to navigate round the enclosure. Im so worried she is dieing on me.I have had to help her untangle 3 times now, she gets stuck, and rolls and cant get undone on her own it seems.

[dieselbaby]

If anyone wants to see her i have her on my webcam on yahoo messenger. my id is diesel_baby87.

[dieselbaby]

pic 15 shows the normal scales before the bite wound, and pic 16 shows the ones past the wound where she doesnt seem to be able to move. They dont look normal, almost dehydrated, yet she drinks, and the front scales all look great.

[ConcinusMan]

Ouch

[dieselbaby]

more pics and one more set to come.

[guidofatherof5]

Looks like a crushing injury with spinal cord damage.

[dieselbaby]

is there anything i can do for her?

[ConcinusMan]

Owie. Yeah, back is broke

[dieselbaby]

Last night she was doing so good, standing right up reaching for the top of the tank, and zooming all over, swimming, and now today she isnt doing well at all. past the two bite wounds the scales look normal again. I thought for sure last night we were past the worst of it.

[guidofatherof5]

You sound like you know what to look for if things start going bad. Offer her warmth, water and food at some point.
I don't think there is much more you can do.
Most Vets. won't even look at garter snakes let alone treat an injured one.
Please keep us posted about her.
Prayers headed your way.

[ConcinusMan]

I just hope that the trauma to the spinal cord is resulting in only temporary paralysis. Permanent damage could cause the digestive system from that point on down, to stop working. I hope that's not the case. I have seen way worse broken backs and once the snake healed, they were crooked, but functional.

This snake probably needs to fast for quite some time until that heals a bit. Hopefully she has enough body mass to spare some. Warmth is definitely needed. It will speed healing and fight infection but it will also cause a fasting snake to lose weight.

[dieselbaby]

Im in tears as i write this, Sally stole our hearts the short time she was here with us in our home, she was such a brave good little snake. I dont know how but in the short time she was here i fell in love with her, and its breaking my heart to say she is gone.

She was doing so good yesterday, and enjoying life and today it was totally different, she wasnt doing well at all. I guess all her activity yesterday finalized the severing of her spinal cord and now i feel just aweful that it could have been the climbing things i added, and the fact it was my dog that did this to her.

She started having difficulty breathing and i knew there was no saving her no matter what. I ended her misery. She is now gone. She passed away at 11:05pm eastern time. She will be buried under the rocks where my dog found her.

Thank you all for your help. You are wonderful people.

[guidofatherof5]

I'm so sorry to hear about her passing. She must have sustained a serious injury.
Thanks for giving her your best and caring for her. At least she died being loved.
I hope you will get another garter snake sometime in the future.
It was nice talking with you tonight.

[dieselbaby]

Thank You, and she had to of she went downhill so quickly, just an hour ago she was breathing fine and then the gasping started. It was all too much for me.

We will definately get another garter in the near future, im sure my kids wouldnt have it any other way, they fell in love with her too.

I wish we could adopt one from you, but i am sure the border import requirements would be intensive, but we will look for a canadian breeder i think. I think the wild ones should stay that way, unless they need our help.

I would love to find one of those blue ones, the puget sound ones. Those are stunning.

Anyhow, i should go check on the rest of my animals and call it a night, its been a rough one, and looking at that empty tank isnt helping matters.

Thank you again, and good night all

[ConcinusMan]

So sorry! You did your best but her injuries were apparently just too severe. Their little diaphragms are rather delicate. Maybe a rib or something compromised it and it took a while to fill with fluid.:( At least that's what it sounds like from your description. We have two lungs and can survive the collapsing of one of them. They only have one working lung. There is nothing you could have done besides make her comfortable and you did that.

[Mrs N1ntndo]

i am so so sorry about your snake. I ve been watching this thread and hoping shed get better. I am so sorry this had to happen. Thank goodness that she was with a loving and caring family that did there best for her. She probably loved the company. Again Im sorry.

[katach]

I'm so very sorry for your loss. I' started crying too, when I read your post. You are a wonderful person and I too hope you stay on the forum and get another garter.

[kibakiba]

You did good giving her a comfortable life before she died. Thank you for taking the time to help her and take care of her. As Kat said, I hope you stay also. Garters are great snakes to have.

[RedSidedSPR]

So sorry!!:(

you did good. Thanks for caring.

[dieselbaby]

Even today looking at her tank just leaves an empty sad feeling, knowing it could have been my fault that she went downhill so fast, encouraging the climbing and such on the logs i put in. Hind sight is 20/20 though and i just wanted her to be as happy in her tank as i could make her, short of being in the wild.

I do plan to stay on the forum, and we do plan to get another garter, when i dont know as not many keep them as pets around here and with it turning colder im sure most of the local snakes are headed for hibernation. I will keep my eye out for a friend though. I did have one who enjoyed hiding under the pallets in my grain shed, of course that may have been Sally.

Thank you all again for all your help and encouraging words, and i hope someday i can be as helpful to someone else.

[ConcinusMan]

Even today looking at her tank just leaves an empty sad feeling, knowing it could have been my fault that she went downhill so fast

Why do you say that? was it you who bit the snake? If not then there's no way this was your fault.

[snakehill]

Aren't there any Canadian members that can send a garter to dieselbaby? :confused:

[dieselbaby]

No, i didnt bite the snake but it was my dog who did. I would be responsible if she bit a person so why shouldnt i be responsible for her biting this poor snake.. Anyhow, when any of our animals dies i take it pretty hard.

I have been looking for a canadian breeder, no luck as of yet, but will keep looking.

LOL you might laugh at this i know i did afterwards, but i was even trying to make up a little splint out of 3 tongue depressers, and vetwrap. How it was going to stay on i dont know, but i was going to try as long as she had a quality of life.

[dieselbaby]

Not to mention the one vet i found that would even talk to me about snakes, grrrrr im putting in a report tomorrow(cant today as its labor day) ask me why on earth i would try and save a garter snake anyway, and that I should put the snake down, even before i sent pics or anything, and was very rude about the whole thing. Even told me i could be charged for having the snake in my possession since its a wild animal.. well i dont know about that and plan on looking into legalities this afternoon but if i werent so upset about the snake last night i would have let that vet have it(verbally)

[ConcinusMan]

I hear you but technically he's right. Where you are, and even where I am, vets are not to treat wildlife, and citizens are not to do it, or possess them either. Only trained wildlife rehabilitation are supposed to do it. They don't care about snakes though, and would have euthanized it without even trying.

You're basically on your own. Obviously I don't think they're going to come busting down your door with a warrant over it though.

[dieselbaby]

YAY, i was on the border services page for importing reptiles including snakes and found this...

This information is current as of 2011-09-05.

Please be advised that amphibians and reptiles (excluding turtles and tortoises) are no longer regulated under the Health of Animals Regulations (other than Part XII that regulates the transport of all animals). As a result, no Canadian Food Inspection Agency import permit is required, nor a health certificate and no inspection will normally be done at the border. Imports are permitted from any country, for any use, to any destination in Canada.

I am going to call them tomorrow and make sure this is the case. If it is, would anyone on this forum be willing to sell us a female, or baby female?

The best thing since the border can hold up mail for ever, is we would ask that it be shipped to Ryden's border store in grand portage minnesota(they do this all the time) and we would drive across the border and pick the snake up the day its due to arrive, we only like 45 mins from the u.s border.

[ConcinusMan]

You know, I read the same thing. But people keep telling me that is not the case. It was my understanding too, that we folks here in the U.S. could ship garters to Canada without all the red tape. Nothing more required other than international shipping rates.

But I keep hearing otherwise.

[dieselbaby]

Well i will call our office here and if need be i will get something in writing from them. If its law they have no choice at the border to allow them entry. I will do more checking. It may be certain kinds of snakes ie: eastern ribbon snake is a protected species in Ontario.

[dieselbaby]

no one should ship all the way to Canada that poor snake could be held up in customs for a week. UPS can get stuff across pretty quick but i dont know if they handle reptiles or not for cross border stuff, and wouldnt want to chance it. Fastest and easiest way would be to do overnight to the border store in minnesota, then we pick it up there, but i want some clarifications from the border services people, one of which is a nearby neighbor of mine, tried to call him but he isnt home today. Also, i may have to get some kind of permit or permission from our provinsial wildlife people, what they have on their website is very vague and unclear. Of course i want all my ducks in a row before i were to purchase a snake.

I import baby chicks every year from iowa, and all my horses were from minnesota, so i have some import experience, just not with snakes. Our chicks we always pick up at the border store.

I know it would be simpler to just buy from a canadian breeder but i cant seem to find any for garters. milk, corn and pythons sure, but we dont want any of those.

[ConcinusMan]

no one should ship all the way to Canada that poor snake could be held up in customs for a week.

I don't think so. Not if it's shipped using a carrier that allows the shipping of live harmless snakes, and is accompanied by a customs certificate.

[katach]

If you can get the shipping all figured out and are sure you would be there to pick up the baby I have 4 that are ready for new homes. They are NW and they are all eating very well and are very active and big.

[dieselbaby]

I was checking out your babies, they are adorable. Yes i would most definately be there to pick up the baby, and yes i dont want to proceed until i know EXACTLY what the score is on the border.

From what i understand its the export permit, not the import permit that is the red tape because garters are considered wildlife. Its been a frustrating read, and nothing was open today.

As i said, i will call the border people, on both sides, the wildlife people here in Ontario and the u.s wildlife people and get all the info i need.

and thank you for the offer to buy one of your babies.

[katach]

My pleasure. You can PM me when you have all the details, maybe we could chat on the phone.

[dieselbaby]

I will do that, and most definately we can talk on the phone, after all you have to make sure the baby is going to a good home.