Meet Wendy

[Tim C.]

Named for the red pattern starting to form on her head that looks like a patch of hair with pigtails. These pictures don't show it but I'll post an example when I can get her to pose. She has an incomplete frontal scale (between eyes) that lets light that hits the top of her head illuminate her eyes. I am looking for a young male to keep with her to breed and for lifelong company. I would like suggestions on a type of male that would produce something interesting with her. Right now I'm thinking granite or flame but would like to hear suggestions. I have cared for many wild garters, ribbons, northern water, brown, ringneck, etc, I have caught gravid snakes that bore in my care but were released as soon as the young were eating well, but have never purposely breed one and would like to give it a shot. I'm considering releasing all the normal babies when they are ready in hopes to repopulate our area and also for the possibility of seeing a wild albino in the coming years. Does anyone else release cb babies? Is this a bad idea? Anyone who has any suggestions or knows who I could deal with to get a healthy male at a fair price please let me know.

[Stefan-A]

Welcome aboard.


Does anyone else release cb babies? Is this a bad idea?
It is a very bad idea. The worst case scenario is that you introduce an invasive species. It can also spread diseases from the captive population to the wild one. Among other things.

[RedSidedSPR]

Welcome to the forum!

[kibakiba]

It's not a good idea to repopulate in a lot of cases, especially if you don't know what's causing it. there has to be a balance kept in nature, and if snakes are dying off, it's likely for the better of keeping the balance, or there is a problem.. and releasing the babies would be sending them to their deaths. Also, don't release them if they aren't native to your area.

[Stefan-A]

It's not a good idea to repopulate in a lot of cases, especially if you don't know what's causing it. there has to be a balance kept in nature, and if snakes are dying off, it's likely for the better of keeping the balance, or there is a problem.. and releasing the babies would be sending them to their deaths. Also, don't release them if they aren't native to your area.
Yeah. The best thing to do if you want an area repopulated, is to restore habitat.

[Tim C.]

Ok scratch that idea, it looked good on paper though. How about some pairing ideas?

[RedSidedSPR]

Why do you want to breed if you don't want the babies?:confused:

[kibakiba]

Well, any unrelated checkered garter snakes. If she's a checkered, at least. It looks to be to me. Don't mix species, hybrids are highly frowned upon.

[Tim C.]

Because I feel that if you give a snake healthy food, fresh water, fresh air, a clean secure realistic environment and let it go through its normal life cycles and functions at minimal stress your giving it a better life then it would have had in the wild, if you deny any one of these things then your being cruel. I would have to keep them in a plastic tub and what kind of existence is that? I don't have the time or interest in keeping a lot of snakes so the normals would have to go. I would like to donate or sell the nice ones.

[kibakiba]

There arent many people who would take them. So many have been produced this year that people have been giving them away for free apparently.

[RedSidedSPR]

I agree! Im glad you think that!

But if you cant house babies, why are you breeding?

Not trying to be a prick.

[Tim C.]

Yes, its a checkered. I believe a granite is a morph of a checkered, that wouldn't be considered attempting a hybrid would it? To clarify, if I paired her with an eastern that would produce "hybrids"?

[kibakiba]

I was thinking that, too. I think babies are pretty hard to get rid of, especially in this economy. Shipping them is also pretty expensive, if you were to "donate" them to somewhere outside of your area.

[kibakiba]

Yes, pairing her with an eastern would make a hybrid. It is a different species than she is.

You mentioned a flame, which is a morph of easterns, so technically speaking you can't pair them without a hybrid.

[Tim C.]

I don't think your a prick. I posted this to get information, if you need a little to give a little that's fine. I want to breed so the two snakes I house have complete life cycles and functions and to experience the process. Yes, its possible if I produce something cool I may decide to set up another vivarium but as of now I only have time to give a couple snakes the attention they need to remain tame pleasurable pets.

[kibakiba]

Well they could be tame and pleasurable without breeding.

[Tim C.]

But a granite would work? Do you know if it would it have a chance of having a good pattern or would the t- make it look like a mess? Do know anyone that may have tried that pair and know what it produced?

[RedSidedSPR]

I don't know a thing about checkers morphs. But I do know that any snake can live it's whole life and be just a pleasurable and happy, without ever breeding.:)/

[kibakiba]

I'm not a breeder so I personally wouldn't know. I have only bred northwesterns. Shannon (aSnakeLovinBabe) might be a good person to ask, I'm not sure if she has but I know she did breed some checkereds this year.

[RedSidedSPR]

Shannon is the checkers guru.:D

[Tim C.]

Yes they may be tame but if your denying something they would have had in the wild your giving it a lower quality of life instead of improving it. I don't feel bad about taking their freedom because in the wild they look for food, water, and a mate. The rest of the time they hide and are insecure most of the time. By keeping them in a proper envirnment with all their needs met plus the security they find in their viv and in your hand, then you are improving its quality of life. If you don't improve you animals quality of life then you have no business taking its freedom.

[Tim C.]

Who is Shannon? If she is a friend of yours could you refer her to this post?

[Tim C.]

Plus, most the snakes I've had in the past loved to watch tv, they don't get that in the woods.

[RedSidedSPR]

You aren't denying them anything. As long as you house them well, and care for them, breeding isn't like that.;)


Who is Shannon? If she is a friend of yours could you refer her to this post?

Well, i guess she's a friend. She's a member here, another big-time garter snake keeper, who loves checkards.
Garter Snake Forum - View Profile: aSnakeLovinBabe (http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/members/asnakelovinbabe.html)

[Tim C.]

Well that's just my belief and opinion, right or wrong, thats the way I plan to raise them. I appreciate your help and information.

[d_virginiana]

I don't feel bad about taking their freedom because in the wild they look for food, water, and a mate. The rest of the time they hide and are insecure most of the time. By keeping them in a proper envirnment with all their needs met plus the security they find in their viv and in your hand, then you are improving its quality of life. If you don't improve you animals quality of life then you have no business taking its freedom.

I'm glad you think that way, since it means your snakes are probably going to have a very nice home with you, but it's not really fair to the baby snakes if you breed yours without being sure you can either house them yourself or find homes for them. Especially since releasing cbb babies into the wild isn't an option.
Garters most definitely benefit from the company of other snakes, but a same-gender tankmate (if you have room; what size are your tanks?) gives them that natural experience of interacting with another snake, but you don't end up with babies you can't care for. Plus, if they're the same gender, you can mix species in one tank.

[Tim C.]

I have an 18x18x18 exo terra with two floors. The above ground environment level is flush with the bottom of the doors with the underground environment in the lower part without doors. It is my understanding that this should be large enough to house two garters under 3ft. With two levels they should be able to stretch out if they needed.

[d_virginiana]

Never even heard of a cage design like that before. Did you buy it like that or customize it? It sounds interesting though, I'd like to see some pics of it.

[RedSidedSPR]

Is this it? Idk, it looks a little small...

Exo-Terra Glass Terrarium (18X18X18) | Josh's Frogs (http://www.joshsfrogs.com/exo-terra-glass-terrarium-18x18x18.html)

[d_virginiana]

Yeah that does look a bit on the small side.. I misread the earlier post, I thought he said it was 3 ft long, which would be pretty good (gotta start actually reading things before I reply..) Yeahh, 18X18X18 is a bit small for an adult garter, especially two of them.

[RedSidedSPR]

Especially 3ft snakes.

[Tim C.]

I may go to a larger setup when they are adults but at this age too small is better for garters than too large. They get lost and are less secure if its too large. Even at 21 inches she generally stays in the smallest spaces warm or cool.

[RedSidedSPR]

21 inches is past that stage.;)

My 21 inch is in a 20 gal long (30 inches long).

By the time they're a year old they're fine in big tanks, even babies are if they have roommates.

[d_virginiana]

A big tank isn't a problem unless they're so young you're worried about not being able to find them. The reason they stay in the smallest place and hide, is because well... Most garters just really love their hides. I seriously doubt she's getting lost in larger setups though, they do successfully navigate much larger areas in the wild :)

If your snake is 21 inches long, you should seriously consider going ahead and moving her to a larger setup.

[ConcinusMan]

You aren't denying them anything. As long as you house them well, and care for them, breeding isn't like that.;)


Tell that to the guys in prison. :p

That tank is rather small. You talk about quality of life and all that. That's great but I think something like 4 ft X 18 inches is much more appropriate and luxurious. Easier to create a variety of comfort zones and temperatures too.

http://desmond.imageshack.us/Himg585/scaled.php?server=585&filename=setups035large.jpg&res=medium

I just don't like those exoterra's for garters, or any square (unless that square is much bigger) enclosures. There are a number of real husbandry issues that are hard to address in such an enclosure.

Also, I paid less than $60 for this entire setup. Just for scale, those garters in that tank are huge. 3ft and over.

[Tim C.]

What are the husbandry issues with the exoterra?

[kibakiba]

The tank is small.

[RedSidedSPR]

Lack of room. Temperature gradient. (can't keep it cool one side warm next) Stuff like that. It's just too small to be square, and to square to be small.;)

[ConcinusMan]

Pretty much what they said. You could make it work, I suppose, if you only use a small undertank heater in one corner, and only have one small snake in it but it's just less than ideal. With larger, long tank you can create basking areas and a wide temperature gradient. With a square tank that small it's impossible without heating the entire thing.

Don't get me wrong, they're great for tropical species and/or amphibians and water/land type terrariums but it's just not ideal for garters IMO. Much better off getting a used long and roomy tank. Cheaper too.

[kibakiba]

It might be perfect for my 3 baby pacific chorus frogs, but I don't think I'd ever leave a snake in it.

[ConcinusMan]

It would be ideal for small frogs and toads.

[kibakiba]

Which is why I would use it for them rather than a snake. It'd definitely be a lot easier to feed them in that than what I currently have.