albino wandering

[woody44]

some of you may have seen this girl on fauna. she was collected outside of denver colorado recently and i'm stoked to add her to my collection. no name yet but i'm open to suggestions.


http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg90/woody06r6/DSC01112.jpg

http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg90/woody06r6/DSC01111.jpg

[katach]

:eek:Wow! She is beautiful!!!!! How about Zahar, or Sundara for her name.

[guidofatherof5]

Glad to see a forum member picked up that beautiful snake.

[Jeff B]

Ditto what Steve said, thats awesome that you got that snake, I made an offer but it already wasn't enough, and I need another project like I need another hole in my head, so really glad you picked it up. Hey Scott Felzer has a group with melanistics and a hypermel, that he might part with, you might want to check with him. Looking forward to seeing your results in the next couple years, best of luck.

[d_virginiana]

Good looking snake, I'm glad you got her!

[ConcinusMan]

Is it just me or does that look just like the others I've seen only they weren't called albino. They were hypomelanistic. Awesome snake but it looks like the others I have seen before, as in, it's not anything new. Seems like everyone was thinking this is something not found before. I've seen at least two just like this found and pictures posted on field herp forum, although those are usually photograph, and release.

I don't know. Seems like there's more going on than just T+ albino. I think it's a little more this side of normal than just a T+ albino.:confused:

Maybe I'm wrong. Who knows. I just know that wanderings like this have been found often enough that I wouldn't consider them extremely rare or new.

Nice to finally see a pic. I was too late to view the ad. It had already been taken down.

[Chondro788]

From what I know about other snake species, I would call this a T+ without a doubt. :)
Cool looking snake!!! :cool:

[RedSidedSPR]

Sweet!!!!!!!!!!

Glad you got it!

[woody44]

thanks everyone for the kind words!

as far as whether or not she is albino, the red pupils are not indicative of any other traits that i know of and her hypo coloration screams T+ to me. either way i can't wait to see her offspring down the road.

[jitami]

She's gorgeous! She looks like an Autumn to me :)

[ConcinusMan]

I wonder if you create a double homozygous albino + melanistic if it will just make a snake this color but with the pattern wiped out. I know, something similar happened with easterns, but you just don't know until you try it with these, if the genes will interact the same. I hope you try it. I'd like to see that.

[Chondro788]

Yep, that will be a cool "snow" project!!

[woody44]

I am keeping my eyes open for some melanistics so hopefully everything will come together.

[katach]

Did you name her yet?

[woody44]

Did you name her yet?

Not yet. I'm gonna let my kids make the final decision b/w the suggestions on this site and another forum I posted pics on.

[katach]

Well let us know, Make sure it's as pretty as she is!

[woody44]

Well let us know, Make sure it's as pretty as she is!

so far, Camilla is my favorite name that has been suggested. i'll let my boys pick this weekend for her official name. with my 2 and 4 year old boys anything can happen, i am looking forward to what they come up with and decide..lol

[RedSidedSPR]

uh oh.:D

[woody44]

i keep having flashbacks of the movie "Beethoven" when they were trying to name the dog...lol

[katach]

Camilla is a great name!

[woody44]

Its official. Her name is Camilla.

[RedSidedSPR]

eh. Its ok.

Awesome name!:D it fits.

[charles parenteau]

Awesome snake!!

[katach]

Great name, greater snake!

[woody44]

here is an updated pic. it's really hard to catch her color but this is the best i can do for now. she is a pig and has grown quite a bit in the short time i've had her.

http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg90/woody06r6/DSC01125.jpg

[RedSidedSPR]

She really is cool looking.

[Mrs N1ntndo]

Shes a beauty. How old is she again.

[woody44]

thanks and it's hard to say what her age is b/c she is wild caught.

[Mrs N1ntndo]

she is very pretty and thank you for sharing the photos of her.

[guidofatherof5]

Sounds like she's settling in.
Beautiful snake.

[Chondro788]

She is looking great!!! Now make some hets!!! :D

[BLUESIRTALIS]

Sweet snake! Put me in line for some hets.

[woody44]

as soon as she gets up to size, we will get some hets. thanks for the kind words.

[infernalis]

Any recent updates?? how is she doing?

[woody44]

Any recent updates?? how is she doing?

She is doing great and growing. I'll try to get some new pics in the next couple days.

[EasternGirl]

Beautiful girl you have there!

[PINJOHN]

Awesome name!:D it fits.
how do you come to that conclusion........that's a good looking snake :rolleyes:

[RedSidedSPR]

how do you come to that conclusion........that's a good looking snake :rolleyes:

Ell-oh-ell.

[woody44]

Well, i guess I'll bring this thread back from the dead..she grew up and turned out to be a he..last night he was hooked up with one one his mates so hopefully it took and I'll get some little hets!

[BLUESIRTALIS]

Now that's great news that she is a he bacause you can breed him to several nice females and get lots of hets.:cool:

well, i guess i'll bring this thread back from the dead..she grew up and turned out to be a he..last night he was hooked up with one one his mates so hopefully it took and i'll get some little hets!

[ProXimuS]

Very beautiful snake:) I really love the T+ albinos.


Well, i guess I'll bring this thread back from the dead..she grew up and turned out to be a he..last night he was hooked up with one one his mates so hopefully it took and I'll get some little hets!

So is the one that he hooker up with a normal?

[woody44]

Yes. She is one of 2 normal females i have for him. And yes, it is awesome that he turned out to be a male.:D

[twgrosmick]

I would be interested in an unrelated trio of these once they are available. Keep me on the list :)

[Invisible Snake]

Hey, can you post a recent picture of him? :O

[woody44]

I'm not sure if i will sell any hets. It depends on how many i end up with, if any. Also depends on sex ratio. I'll try to get some new pics of him.

[Steveo]

Do you know where "outside Denver" he was found? I have found dozens of wandering this year but they've all been the normal phenotype.

[ConcinusMan]

Do you know where "outside Denver" he was found? I have found dozens of wandering this year but they've all been the normal phenotype.

Colorado in general has been a pretty decent source of albino vagrans. I know that doesn't help but just thought I would mention it.

[woody44]

Idk the exact locale. He just ate so I'm waiting to disturb him for pics.

[ConcinusMan]

Looking forward to it

[woody44]

7217

[guidofatherof5]

Niiice and nice to see the update.

[Invisible Snake]

Great looking group!

Have you had an attempted cannabilisms?

[woody44]

Thanks and no attempted cannibalism at all. They stay very well fed and their water dish is a 2 gallon tub with a filter that has minnows in it all time to keep those ideas at bay.

[Invisible Snake]

Any plans on breeding them next year? o.O

[Light of Dae]

Thanks and no attempted cannibalism at all. They stay very well fed and their water dish is a 2 gallon tub with a filter that has minnows in it all time to keep those ideas at bay.


... No Minnows! They contain Thianmise (Or however you spell it) And can and will lead to a B1 Deficiency which can lead to a painful death. Please consider Guppies or Platys as a way safer alternative.

[guidofatherof5]

Thanks and no attempted cannibalism at all. They stay very well fed and their water dish is a 2 gallon tub with a filter that has minnows in it all time to keep those ideas at bay.

Minnows contain thiaminase and carry parasites. It would be best to replace them with guppies or some other safe fish.
Garter Snake Forum - Garter Caresheet (http://www.thamnophis.com/index.php?page=caresheet)

[Invisible Snake]

I just took a look at the last picture again and you have some great looking wanderings, if you can post up some more pictures :D

[ConcinusMan]

Ick. Too much flash, too close.

[woody44]

They are in fact guppies.. the country boy in me calls all small fish minnows.. lol..as far as breeding, i have witnessed countless locks in the last few weeks so fingers crossed

[guidofatherof5]

They are in fact guppies.. the country boy in me calls all small fish minnows.. lol..as far as breeding, i have witnessed countless locks in the last few weeks so fingers crossed

Good to hear on both accounts. Hoping you have some scrubs in the near future.

[ProXimuS]

Awesome lookin group:D You live in Texas too?:) Did you find these Wanderings in Texas? I didn't know/think they ranged in Texas.

[woody44]

I didn't catch any of these. I bought the females from a member of this site and the albino male came from a guy on fauna.

[i_heart_sneakie_snakes]

They are all nice looking!! Hope you get some beautiful babies :)

[woody44]

They are all nice looking!! Hope you get some beautiful babies :)

Thanks! Me too.

[woody44]

Here he is freshly shed

7399

[RedSidedSPR]

Nice snake

[SilasBannook]

That snake came from Colorado. We have a great concentration of wandering garters here. I look forward to this spring to see if anyone comes up with more of those albino beauties or the pastel wandering snake which my neighbor has. Yeah Colorado.

[ConcinusMan]

Here he is freshly shed

7399

can you do another pic, but back up a little. maybe use zoom if you have it. the flash is too close. washes out the colors.

[Invisible Snake]

Here he is freshly shed

7399

I want him >=]

[MCwyo]

Very cool vagrans. Wish I still lived in that area :) Silas, would it be possible for you to post a photo of the pastel vagrans?

[woody44]

can you do another pic, but back up a little. maybe use zoom if you have it. the flash is too close. washes out the colors.

I took this with my phone. I plan on getting some good shots when i find the battery charger for my camera.

[i_heart_sneakie_snakes]

Yeah, I wanna see the pastel wandering too :)

[woody44]

Me too!

[thamneil]

Very nice! I notice that he has a cagemate. You're not worried about cannibalism?

[woody44]

Not really. They stay fat and happy. Their is feeder guppies in the enclosure at all times in case they get hungry between feedings but they rarely even mess with them.

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

Not really. They stay fat and happy. Their is feeder guppies in the enclosure at all times in case they get hungry between feedings but they rarely even mess with them.

Yea, I used to say that too until one of my fat and happy's seemingly for no reason decided to kill a $400 snake and himself by attempting to eat her! No food or scent had been present in the room for two days and cage had just been changed. It does happen so just beware...


Anyways it's a really nice hypomelanistic animal and even better if it is a male!

[Joshua]

Neat, I have a WC albino vagrans from UT, but it is more yellow and 'typical albino' in appearance. Yours looks more like a caramel-type albino. My normal female is nothing compared to yours, but she was found with the albino boy, so I guess locality will have to count for something lol

[ConcinusMan]

Sounds like you're describing the difference between "T-" and "T+" albinos. I wasn't aware that a T- (is what it sounds like you're describing) albino vagrans existed. Any chance that you will post pics of your albino?

[Joshua]

These were both found together in Ogden. Albino male and normal female.

https://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-snc7/577628_4053564977788_76467264_n.jpg

[Joshua]

https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/549116_4449406793586_343951116_n.jpg

[guidofatherof5]

Awesome.

[ProXimuS]

Ditto^

[Joshua]

Thanks. Didn't mean to hijack the thread.

[ConcinusMan]

Wow. First T- wandering I've ever seen. (might even be the only one, so please, breed and make hets!) Neeto.


Thanks. Didn't mean to hijack the thread.

You didn't, really. Look at the dates on the posts. You didn't hijack, just resurrected, and you're still on topic. Not what I would consider "hijacking"

[Joshua]

Thanks, Yes I'm pretty sure it's the only one. I'm planning to make hets, but probably won't have any available for a while. This is a new WC line, so I want to start them off carefully with minimal incest before releasing them to the masses.

[ConcinusMan]

This is a new WC line, so I want to start them off carefully with minimal incest before releasing them to the masses.

What could be more minimal than the first one, bred to another wild snake? I get what you're saying, but it's what happens in the generations that follow, that matters, and that is out of your control unless you keep all of the descendents of this snake.

[Joshua]

That's exactly what I meant ;) I breed diamond pythons, which take 5-6 years to mature, so patience isn't a big concern.

[Light of Dae]

That is a nice looking albino there.

[i_heart_sneakie_snakes]

Aw, he is so pretty!! How cool to have the only one.

[woody44]

Very nice!

[ConcinusMan]

That's exactly what I meant ;)

So am I to take it that you have no intention of ever giving up possession of any descendents of this snake? Just trying to understand what you mean because my point was that you cannot get any less inbred than the first generation offspring, or, the offspring that result by breeding this snake to another wild snake. No matter what happens, it will be necessary to inbreed if anyone is going to produce the morph. And, the issue of inbreeding is only an issue after generations of inbreeding. You only have control over that, if you NEVER breed the snake, or never give up possession of it's descendents.:cool:

My point is, there's nothing you can do now, that will prevent it from happening whether you give up any of the first offspring, or whether you breed for generations and then give them up. Only the people who subsequently breed it's offspring down the road, have any control over that. That's why I'm having a hard time figuring out what you're thinking. You can't possibly widen the gene pool of snakes that carry the gene, any more than it already is the first time you breed it. You can only produce more snakes that carry the gene, all of which will be related.:cool:

[ProXimuS]

Ok sorta random question....What would happen if you bred a T+ albino to a T- albino?

[woody44]

The scrubs would be het for both types of albinism.

[MasSalvaje]

The scrubs would be het for both types of albinism.

And they would be phenotypically "normal" looking, assuming that both genes are simple recessive that is.

-Thomas

[ConcinusMan]

Yeah, it's two different alleles responsible for each type. Breeding one to the other just results in normal looking double hets. While it's technically possible for a snake to be homozygous for both types, such a snake would still only be a T- albino since the gene for that type makes production of Tyrosinase impossible. In other words, T- trumps T+

[twgrosmick]

And they would be phenotypically "normal" looking, assuming that both genes are simple recessive that is.

-Thomas


Have yet to see an albino that isn't a simple recessive

[ConcinusMan]

There is such a thing, (albino that is not simple recessive) but not in garters.

[Joshua]

What I meant was I will probably hold on to the majority of F1 offspring to pair up to produce multiple litters of albinos and possible hets. From there I can pair up F2 albinos (cousins) as well as add other females to the mix to make more hets. This will avoid the otherwise inevitable problem of people getting sibling pairs of hets, breeding them and selling/giving away sibling pairs of the offspring, etc etc etc. Obviously there has to be some inbreeding to isolate the trait. Right now I'm only planning to part with one pair of hets, and they're going to someone that already has a rather large colony of vagrans.

[BUSHSNAKE]

First you need to get babies. Many species of Thamnophis breed very easily but ive heard differently about vagrans. Just concentate on getting your first litter.

[ConcinusMan]

This will avoid the otherwise inevitable problem of people getting sibling pairs of hets, breeding them and selling/giving away sibling pairs of the offspring, etc etc etc.

That's exactly my point. It doesn't avoid that. The only thing you have control over is whether or not you breed siblings or give up sibling pairs. One is always just one generation away from doing what you are trying to avoid, even if they don't get the two siblings from you, and regardless of what you do. The only thing that will avoid inbreeding depression is if every breeder outcrosses to create a generation of hets every couple of generations instead of continually inbreeding. That, you have no control over unless you never give up possession of this snake's descendents.

You can wait until you have hets which are several generations removed from this snake, and only sell them as pairs when they are not siblings, but that doesn't stop people from breeding those two, then immediately breeding the sibling offspring, the following generation. So you see, they are always just one generation away from doing that, regardless of what you do.