Albino -- a defect?

[RedSidedSPR]

I keep finding myself wondering: why the heck do people strive to make albinos/snows, when it's more a defect then anything?

Albinos have a complete lack of melanin. A defect. You all know how that affects them.... such as vision and immunological disorders. No heat lamps for you.

Something many people dont know, is that if it's lacking in the skin, it's often lacking in the brain....

There's a lot of evidence that shows that albino animals are more prone to neurological (nervous system) problems than non-albinos....

Supposedly, thay have a shorter life span.

They lack receptors for certain chemicals.. other receptors as well, some involving light.

Blah blah blah.

They're usually not even all that attractive in my opinion. I much prefer animals with melanin.

Snakes were made a certain way. They absorb this, see that..
Why charge $500 for something that doesn't work?

Maybe I'm seeing this wrong, but I don't see many advantages to albinos.

Seems, from what I've read/heard, that it's just us ignoring the animals health at their expense to make a "cool" snake.

Please prove me wrong.

[guidofatherof5]

Much of this is personal preference. Some like them and some don't.
As for health issues I agree but "what it is, is what it is"
I find the albinos to be interesting and worth having even though there can be issues.
I don't think saying "that's just ignoring the animals health at their expense to make a "cool" snake" is not a fair statement.
I would think that most albino keepers are more than aware of the health requirements and needs of their animals.

You're entitled to your opinion and views and trying to "prove you wrong" would be an exercise in futility.:)
I don't think this is a right or wrong situation.;)

[BLUESIRTALIS]

To most people albinos are attractive snakes. I agree that lots of the normals look better but i still like albinos as well. I personally have not noticed any problems with health in albinos except when too much inbreeding is involved. I have seen albinos live as long as normals with no problems. Albino or not when you start inbreeding over and over again you will have problems.

[RedSidedSPR]

I should have said that differently. I wasnt accusing anyone of ignoring their health. Sorry...

But when someone is striving to make a litter of snows, i sometimes hear it as let's make a litter of babies with health problems. I know that's not at all, by no means their goal, but I can't help but feel that way...

As for "what it is, is what it is".. That's true, but it makes no sense when you're "making" then purposefully.

It's not a right or wrong situation, I know, I wanted hear opinions on albinos... they are cool, I don't have a problem with them or keeping them. But it being the most common "morph", just seems kinda strange to me..

Like I said, "they don't work.":p

[infernalis]

I for one have no problems with producing healthy animals with anomalies in the pigmentation.

F5 & F6 just to produce more is of no interest to me at all.

[Kantar]

my guess is that breeders will keep producing them if there is still a market for them

[RedSidedSPR]

Oh they will.

Ditto Wayne.

[RedSidedSPR]

Basically what I wanted was to hear some opinions, I didn't mean it to sound so daggone harsh.:D

I've known people, read stuff, and heard stuff, that make it seem like albinos are nothing but bad. I don't agree with that. I agree that there are problems, but nothing to completely make me anti-albino. Only anti-nothing-but-albino...

[d_virginiana]

I think that dilemma can be found in most domesticated species, but I don't think it's as bad with albino snakes with the exception of irresponsibly inbred ones. I mean, dogs are probably the worst example of humans setting up animals for health problems that there is, but at the same time, how many dogs would end up homeless if people weren't able to predict its adult size and temperament based on the pedigree? If albinos sell, then breeders will keep producing them.

I don't have a problem with breeding to create designer morphs as long as it's done responsibly... But I do have to agree with you that a lot of albinos just look freaky!

[RedSidedSPR]

I dont have a problem either.. make all ya want, that wasnt what i was getting at.

I wouldbt see freaky, lol, but unattractive yes. SOME OF THEM. i do like albinos.

Snows on the other hand... :rolleyes:

[ssssnakeluvr]

albinos are abnormal looking, thats generally what makes them move "valuable" as they are uncommon. they are real popular with other reptile breeders. many garter snake breeders love the normal ones more than the abnormal ones. I love the abnormals, they are neat and with proper care and outcrossing, they can be fun snakes. I really do love the normals. when I was a kid looking thru the field guide to western reptiles and amphibians, I loved the garters! those were the ones I wanted to have...well, all of the snakes, but mainly the garters =)
it's all a matter of personal preference, but I have found that a lot of garter owners love the normals =)

[RedSidedSPR]

I love both! I have two normals and two not-normals. (anery and flame)

it's not the fact that they're abnormal. It's the fact that they have so many health issues...

I guess if they are housed right and taken care of i'ts not that bad, but still... technically "albino" is a defect.

[ssssnakeluvr]

yes it is... occasionally an albino adult will be found in the wild. they stand out real well for predators to find them. thats one reason they don't are rare. I have never had any health issues myself with albinos... as long as they don't get inbred too much, they do just fine. =)

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

technically any pigmentation altering effect could be considered a defect, including flames. Defect is an opinionated term, it depends on what you personally consider a defect. I consider anything that would majorly hinder survival in the wild to be a defect. albinism, pied, and leucistic are examples of this. Hypo could also be in there but it can also be a positive attribute, it actually depends on how light the animal is and how that affects it's camoflage in the environment. Same thing with melanism and anerythristic. In some pupulations, snakes with these traits thrive, simply because their habitat allows them to.

[RedSidedSPR]

yes it is... occasionally an albino adult will be found in the wild. they stand out real well for predators to find them. thats one reason they don't are rare. I have never had any health issues myself with albinos... as long as they don't get inbred too much, they do just fine. =)

Right. They do just fine. In the wild though, they can't be kept away from the lights and stuff, it's definitely a defect in the wild..


technically any pigmentation altering effect could be considered a defect, including flames. Defect is an opinionated term, it depends on what you personally consider a defect. I consider anything that would majorly hinder survival in the wild to be a defect. albinism, pied, and leucistic are examples of this. Hypo could also be in there but it can also be a positive attribute, it actually depends on how light the animal is and how that affects it's camoflage in the environment. Same thing with melanism and anerythristic. In some pupulations, snakes with these traits thrive, simply because their habitat allows them to.

Well, it's more than just easy-to-spot... albinos have trouble with light. Skin, eyes, everything.

mels and anerys are not affected like that. I wouldn't call them defects...

[BUSHSNAKE]

your right about melanisim(forget the anery thing all together).One of the only mutations that are thought to be intended for advantage. And very common in Thamnophis...butleri.sirtalis.vagrans.radix.pariet alis.ordinoides have all been found "in the black"

[RedSidedSPR]

yeah, they actually help the snake if anything. Albinos don't... in fact it does the opposite.

[Starling96]

if a predator came across a flame they might see his bright colors and mistake him for something venomous or poisonous because they always say that brightly colored animals are usually bad to eat

[RedSidedSPR]

This is true.

Although animals dont always see color...

[d_virginiana]

It's surprising how well flames can blend in in the wild.. Sort of like tigers or foxes I guess?

[mb90078]

Getting a little bit away from the intent of your post, but being albino (or snow) in the wild COULD POTENTIALLY be advantageous in the right circumstances...

[RedSidedSPR]

Like what?

[mb90078]

Like what?

Change in environment...suppose that something caused the ground to be lighter in color...they would blend in better against a white background as an albino or snow. It seems far-fetched, but this situation has played out probably hundreds of thousands of times (or more) in natural history...where an obscure mutation changed from being disadvantageous, to being advantageous due to environmental change.

The one that sticks out in my head is white and black moths. I wish I remembered more of the details of it, but it's been a few years since I've studied the subject. Natural Selection controls everything.

EDIT: To illustrate what I was saying (a long read): Natural Selection and Speciation (http://biology.clc.uc.edu/courses/bio106/nat-sel.htm)
Or to basically get at my point in single picture form:
http://biology.clc.uc.edu/graphics/bio106/nat-sel.jpg

[d_virginiana]

White canines are probably the best example of this. In certain areas, wild wolf/coyote populations are almost exclusively white, but the genes for light coloration disappear in only a few generations if they aren't in a very selective environment.

I can see how the light/dark background would potentially benefit hypos or other morphs, but I can't really think of a ground type that would keep a snow or pied from sticking out?

[mb90078]

White canines are probably the best example of this. In certain areas, wild wolf/coyote populations are almost exclusively white, but the genes for light coloration disappear in only a few generations if they aren't in a very selective environment.

I can see how the light/dark background would potentially benefit hypos or other morphs, but I can't really think of a ground type that would keep a snow or pied from sticking out?

Well...I'm reaching, but suppose that for some reason, a certain forest had trees which became infected with a disease that turned their leaves white upon falling in autumn. ...Or if there was a large amount of volcanic ash (though I'm not sure if that in itself would be too detrimental to the snakes) that occurred in an area over a consistent and long period of time. Again, over the course of natural history, stranger things have happened.

[PINJOHN]

i have always made the assumption that original'y people were drawn to them because of their rareness and difference, by the time lots of people had eventually got "their" albino, they had became just another garter in the trade, and i suppose that's how many of us now view them

[RedSidedSPR]

Interesting.

But that's camo alone... doesn't change the health issues.

[ssssnakeluvr]

never had any health issues with mine....

[RedSidedSPR]

Any albino has health issues... not HEALTH issues, I said that wrong, but the things I was getting at earlier.

Again, not health issues.. It's not THAT bad, which is why I don't have a problem with albinos if they're kept right.

[ConcinusMan]

I for one have no problems with producing healthy animals with anomalies in the pigmentation.

F5 & F6 just to produce more is of no interest to me at all.

I'm with Wayne on this. Many of the health issues you speak of are the result of excessive inbreeding for recessive traits, rather than from the defective gene itself. You would get a lot of these health issues you speak of, by inbreeding F5, F6 and beyond, even if the snakes color was perfectly normal. Now, you do want to avoid exposing these snakes to UV since they can sunburn. Other than that, the "defect" has no apparent effect on the longevity or any other health concerns. It doesn't hurt them to be albino. What hurts them is to be inbred for many generations in a row, in order to get to be albino.

[RedSidedSPR]

I get it now, thanks! That's what I meant by "prove me wrong". Thats what I needed from this thread...

I don't even know what F5 or F6 is, but that helps!:D

[ConcinusMan]

Two unrelated snakes are bred together. For example, wild type and an albino. The first generation is F1. Take one of the hets and breed it back to the albino or to each other (to produce albinos) and that's F2. Fine and dandy. No inbreeding problems so far. But if you continue the inbreeding past F5 or so, you're going going to start seeing problems. Problems directly caused by inbreeding.

Shannon has explained how this has happened to albino checkereds. it's because people buy siblings and breed them to each other. Then then next person comes along and does the same thing, and so on...

Every few generations of inbreeding they need to be outcrossed to totally unrelated snakes. Preferably a strong healthy line of wild snakes. This helps to prevent the inbreeding problems. Problem is, nobody wants to do that since they want albinos the first time they breed. They don't want to produce a litter of hets and wait until they're old enough to breed.

[RedSidedSPR]

OK, thanks! Makes sense now.

So I guess what I thought i knew about albinos was really inbred albinos. That's why I posted, great.

Yay, someone proved me wrong.:D (never though I'd say that):p

[annulataarethebest]

personally I just think albinos are cool.... especially if they're more rare (not many people have them), for everything albino in my collection I also have a normal snake of the same species, guests always find albinos neat to look at if they're not involved in the hobby.

I know a lot of people who don't work with anything albino unless it was wild caught and truly unique. I have a albino california kingsnake that is going on 10 years old in a couple years, I don't think there's anything different about him if compared to a "normal" colored snake, except maybe that he has a never ending appetite.

[infernalis]

Shannon has explained how this has happened to albino checkereds. it's because people buy siblings and breed them to each other. Then then next person comes along and does the same thing, and so on....


Other morphs are heading the same direction...

[d_virginiana]

Other morphs are heading the same direction...

Which ones? I get the feeling flame lines could get that way pretty quickly, just based on how popular they are. It seems like it'd be pretty lucrative to just keep breeding the brightest flames in a group to each other if someone didn't care about keeping the genetics good..

[RedSidedSPR]

Flames are inbred... so yes I bet that one of them.

[infernalis]

Flames are inbred... so yes I bet that one of them.


Please substantiate this statement.


You seem so darn sure of this, I'd like nothing more than to hear your evidence.

[RedSidedSPR]

Oh... or not. I thought they were, I've heard a lot of stuff about it...

Sorry if I was wrong.

[infernalis]

This is why I have mentioned before, speaking in absolutes when you are not sure of yourself leads to embarrassing moments. ;)

You can breed a flame to a normal and still get flames in the litter.

[RedSidedSPR]

Sigh... I know, but again I thought I WAS sure...:rolleyes:

My bad..

[ConcinusMan]

Which ones? I get the feeling flame lines could get that way pretty quickly, just based on how popular they are. It seems like it'd be pretty lucrative to just keep breeding the brightest flames in a group to each other if someone didn't care about keeping the genetics good..

Popularity has nothing to do with it. It's the single point mutations that are more vulnerable as it gets harder to find unrelated snakes to breed them to, in order to produce the morph. Problems have been seen in snow radixes (stub tails, bug eyes..)and that's a double mutation (anery and albino) making in even harder to find snakes that carry both of the mutations without being related to the snake you intend to breed.

It's not that difficult to breed nice flames without inbreeding.

[d_virginiana]

That's good to hear. (Also good to hear that I can get nice flames from someday breeding my flame to a non-flame!).

I guess in terms of popularity, I was thinking that snakes that were in high demand were more likely to get inbred simply to produce large numbers of the morph quickly. But I see how single mutations are way more susceptible to inbreeding now though.

[mb90078]

This is why I have mentioned before, speaking in absolutes when you are not sure of yourself leads to embarrassing moments. ;)


So true, that is one of my biggest pet peeves. If you're not sure, don't sound so sure, or don't even comment at all. It makes no sense to me why people try to sound confident, when really they have no clue.

(And I'm not picking on this particular user, I mean this in general)

[RedSidedSPR]

I've made that mistake in the past, and always try not to do that.

[xStatic]

Well I just see it as, these snakes are being bred to live out thier lives in a captive environment :)

It would seem cruel to breed for these certain traits, and then release them into the wild or something where they would most likely not last any amount of time. But we tend to do this with most all animals we keep as pets. Dogs are a great example and their are many traits in dogs that can cause long term or even fatal health problems.. but we like how they look, or how they function, so we continue to selectively breed for them.

I LOVEEEE my albino checkered :D in my opinion she is a million times more beautiful than a normal checkered.. but again, that's my opinion. Most snakes have developed their coloration to allow them to blend in, but I love those snakes that really pop out at you. She has the most beautiful yellows and oranges, and when they are against her pigment lacking skin which looks lavender, they are just beautiful. The same goes for my snow corn. His eyes are stunning and he lives a happy life in a rather dark and comfortable home :)

If people want to pay an extra fee, and provide the care that is needed, then go ahead and breed as many crazy colors as you can. As long as the snakes are taken care of properly, I'm happy