Pied Garters.. Has anyone seen this?

[d_virginiana]

I didn't even know there were pied garters, I was just wondering if anyone else has seen this ad? If I had the money and space, this would be really tempting...

kingsnake.com Classifieds: Pied Garter Hets Available (http://market.kingsnake.com/detail.php?cat=99&de=874008)

[Starling96]

Doesnt look like a garter to my
Scott had a pied eastern but it died i think

[RedSidedSPR]

Yeah, he did and it did.

With only that crappy pic, I wouldn't believe it's a garter.

[Starling96]

Yeah, he did and it did.

With only that crappy pic, I wouldn't believe it's a garter.
ditto

[annulataarethebest]

Is that person claiming they're the one who bought that WC Piebald? Could very easily be a scam... If I bought that snake I would've took more than 1 crappy picture of it ya know.
It sucks to buy hets, especially from a breeder who just popped up out of nowhere?
Seems fishy, and I guess there's no way to know for sure who ended up with that piebald?

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

Cmon now guys get your facts straight here!!! Scott didn't end up with that pied, to my knowledge it went to Bill Minnick (spelling?) and that's probably him, he NEVER posts online, uses forums, or any of that nonsense. He's very quiet but yes he is the guy that often silently is in the background buying the rare garters. You can ask some others... The snake in the picture IS the pied garter, it only took one look for me to recognize that ugly pattern from previous photos of her (no offense but I do think she was unattractive!) and yes, she really had babies and then really she died. This is all true, I heard it long before this ad was posted. They are legit. Not good to be calling out a scam before you know the facts!

[Starling96]

Cool
She looks very slender.
Maybe that was right before she died?

[RedSidedSPR]

Oh yeah.. duh:p

OK, but that picture OF a picture would NOT make me buy one.

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

It might be all he has... Like I said he never posts pics or participates in this online stuff....

[annulataarethebest]

I never heard of Bill so of course I'd have to consider that to be a scam before the facts that you presented Shannon. I've been buying and selling reptiles for a decade now and online shopping for snakes always comes down to how good the pictures are. In this case, pictures not so good. Is disappointing to hear that snake died for sure, her stubbed tail reminds me of the water snake I have, amazing either one of those made it to adulthood in the wild really.

Hopefully somebody snags up the babies and makes some more.

For Sale Wild caught piebald garter snake - FaunaClassifieds (http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showthread.php?t=180218)

[Jeff B]

OK, just to stop the rumors and innuendos before they get out of hand as usual. Here are the facts: most of what Shannon posted is accurate, and Bill is who placed the ad, however there actually has been a line from a less white expressed pied in existence for several years prior to the discovery of this particular high white pied. I will let Scott elaborate on the previous line if he chooses to do so, since I have not worked with it as he has. A couple days after this litter of new pied hets were born Scott and I both aquired groups of the hets from Bill. First on the agenda is to get them up to size and thriving, and hopefully in a couple years it will be proven to be a heritable recessive gene, but no garantee and yes it is a big investment of time and money, but worth the chance IMHO.
Hope that clears some air.

[d_virginiana]

Hope you guys get a couple of nice groups of pieds going; I'm probably still going to be drooling over them in a year or two just like I am now... Only hopefully I'll have more money then.

[Jeff B]

Money does make the world go round so to speak, but right now my only concern is to keep this gene alive for the hobby's sake, it would be a shame to not one day see piebald garters as a common place in our hobby.

[d_virginiana]

Very true.. I suppose that's the reason for the high prices though. They help scare away morph-crazy buyers who don't really know what they're doing, which probably ups the chance of the babies going to experienced breeders and getting the line established.

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

The remainder of these het pied babies that are still available will be changing hands shortly... boy, she must have had a lot of them!!! I sure hope that this morph proves out... just for the cool factor. I mean, pied garter snakes? That's pretty neat, considering a lot of the other "pied" colubrids are not nearly as white or interesting looking. I do find them to be ugly, but it's kind of a love-hate thing, just like the dirty snows. They are really creepy looking but they are so ugly, they're cool :o

[ssssnakeluvr]

I am also getting a pair of the pied hets. Yes, Bill Minnick had the pied. He does a lot of garter stuff and pretty much stays off the forums. A friend of mine had a pied baby from a wild caught eastern garter from Illinois... small patch of white on the tail... here's a link to pics (I have a small group of his siblings)

index_15 (http://www.donsgartersnakes.net/index_15.htm)

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

Bill is an old school guy... I wish I could afford to get a pair of these hets, but then again... I don't even really like pieds that much and I've got more important things to worry about! Like, my daughter and getting married... been shopping for my wedding ring!!! :eek: Window shopping that is... Can't buy it yet.

[Starling96]

i think they're awsome looking!

[i_heart_sneakie_snakes]

I think they are really neat looking. I don't know that I am in love, but I sure do not think they are ugly. What did the mother die from??

[annulataarethebest]

OK, just to stop the rumors and innuendos before they get out of hand as usual. Here are the facts: most of what Shannon posted is accurate, and Bill is who placed the ad, however there actually has been a line from a less white expressed pied in existence for several years prior to the discovery of this particular high white pied. I will let Scott elaborate on the previous line if he chooses to do so, since I have not worked with it as he has. A couple days after this litter of new pied hets were born Scott and I both aquired groups of the hets from Bill. First on the agenda is to get them up to size and thriving, and hopefully in a couple years it will be proven to be a heritable recessive gene, but no garantee and yes it is a big investment of time and money, but worth the chance IMHO.
Hope that clears some air.

Thanks Jeff. Definitely worth it.
I think I'm going to try as well... If Bill still has some by the time he gets my email. :)

[PINJOHN]

Cmon now guys get your facts straight here!!! Scott didn't end up with that pied, to my knowledge it went to Bill Minnick (spelling?) and that's probably him, he NEVER posts online, uses forums, or any of that nonsense. He's very quiet but yes he is the guy that often silently is in the background buying the rare garters. You can ask some others... The snake in the picture IS the pied garter, it only took one look for me to recognize that ugly pattern from previous photos of her (no offense but I do think she was unattractive!) and yes, she really had babies and then really she died. This is all true, I heard it long before this ad was posted. They are legit. Not good to be calling out a scam before you know the facts!

have to disagree with you Shannon, the fact that this particular advert turned out to be genuine is not the issue, most of us were unaware of the facts you presented, and i have rarely seen a worse photo of any snake in an advert, the prices being asked were not chicken feed so you might expect a better effort than the one given, for most of us this guy had come out of nowhere a complete unknown, my point being that if a real scam was perpetrated on one of the members with similar circumstances to this one, we would all [including you] be wondering how our member could have been so dumb as to fall for it, its right in my opinion to sound a warning if things don't seem quite right and for me that advert looked a wrong'un

[Chondro788]

I've e-mailed him twice now about buying some with no response?!? :confused:

[ssssnakeluvr]

he is a very busy person... be patient, he will get back with you. =)

[BLUESIRTALIS]

I emailed him too so maybe we will here something soon. I would love to have a pair of these. I know the original guy chuck who had the mom for sale, but i was scared to make an offer because she was so skinny when he got her.

[snakehill]

I wonder what the red garters he is selling are! Red plains, red sided, red easterns?:confused:

[BLUESIRTALIS]

They are from an erythristic eastern female from myrtle beach sc.

[Jeff B]

I am also getting a pair of the pied hets. Yes, Bill Minnick had the pied. He does a lot of garter stuff and pretty much stays off the forums. A friend of mine had a pied baby from a wild caught eastern garter from Illinois... small patch of white on the tail... here's a link to pics (I have a small group of his siblings)

index_15 (http://www.donsgartersnakes.net/index_15.htm)

Glad you are getting a pair from Bill as well.
Don, that could be a ringer, rather than pied, ringers are commonly seen with non pied morphs in bp's as reference. What is the status on that snake as far as subsequent breeding results? I would doubt that would prove out.

[Chondro788]

I was thinking ringer as well when I saw the pic. I'm not sure I've heard of any other snakes (other then Balls) that have a ringer?!? :confused: I sure hope its not like the ball pythons and just a neat little trait that pops up from time to time. The interesting thing is that is in the same spot as a ball python ringer???

[ssssnakeluvr]

never heard of ringers.... baby was born a month ago. the owner will be holding it back and breeding back to mother later on.

[BUSHSNAKE]

a lot of morphs do come out of Illinois, who knows right? so lets shut our mouths and support it for all are sakes

[ssssnakeluvr]

hopefully will turn out more pied than ringer ;)

[Chondro788]

My fingers are crossed for you and the snake owner!!! :cool:

[RedSidedSPR]

Ditto, I'd love to see a CB litter of piebalds!

[Jeff B]

hopefully will turn out more pied than ringer ;)
Don I hope it does too, just saying it looks an aweful like a ringer, which is very common and well documented as not pied and not inheritable in BPs. If you do a search of ringer BP you will see what I am talking about.

[ssssnakeluvr]

did a brief image search on google, interesting! will have to read up a little more on it. hopefully it will be different than the balls =)
hopefully we have good luck with the pied hets too!!! Bill will be sending mine out next month with some other snakes.... cant wait!

[Jeff B]

Like Jason said its common with BPs but haven't seen it in colubrids.

[Chondro788]

did a brief image search on google, interesting! will have to read up a little more on it. hopefully it will be different than the balls =)
hopefully we have good luck with the pied hets too!!! Bill will be sending mine out next month with some other snakes.... cant wait!


Must be nice, I never heard back from the guy. I hate when people can't even send a quick, "I'm sorry they are sold out" e-mail. :mad: Oh well, you live and learn, and you learn who to do business with and who rubs you the wrong way... I just end up buying Pieds from one of you guys, my friends! :cool:

[ConcinusMan]

Money does make the world go round so to speak, but right now my only concern is to keep this gene alive for the hobby's sake, it would be a shame to not one day see piebald garters as a common place in our hobby.

I find that hard to believe. You said yourself what you had given up to get these hets, (it was a lot) and yet all of you balked at the idea of me paying a few hundred dollars for the one and only albino northwestern known in existence. Saying "I would wait". Wait for what? The next opportunity which may never come?

You did it because if you are successful in producing pied garters, you know they'll be worth a fortune. You didn't make that kind of investment because your "only concern is to keep this gene alive for the hobby's sake". That's bull.

And nobody seems to recognize that this albino northwestern is the key to producing all kinds of new morphs. The potential was there to bring new morphs of this species to the hobby and bring them out of obscurity, and yes, even make money, but the attitude about that was completely different and nobody thought I should pay the guys asking price. I simply wanted to preserve that albino gene for the hobby but nobody even shared that concern. My motivation really was to keep the gene alive. Nobody gave a damn, and discouraged me from even trying to buy it.

Now you come along and pay an arm and a leg for hets from a snake that may or may not be a genetic trait and claim you did it to preserve them for the hobby. That's quite hard to swallow. Personally, I don't care why you did it and don't care if it was to make money. I just find your stated reason hard to swallow. Might be a little easier to believe if your "hobby" wasn't a registered business. Pharmaceutical companies invest millions to find new drugs. They sure as heck don't do it to help people get well. There's only one reason they invest so much and we all know what that reason is.

[RedSidedSPR]

True, (seriously, I'm with ya there) but I'm sure the gene-preservation is part of it too. Who doesn't want to keep the pieds going?

A shame too, that you couldnt get that albino, would have loved to have gotten some albino NWs going.

[ConcinusMan]

Well as soon as the guy realized I couldn't come up with 600 bucks and that nobody else I could find was willing to pay that much, (snake was very small in pretty bad shape, but savable) he copped an attitude and I couldn't even get him to talk to me anymore, other than to shoot insults and accusations of trying to rip him off. After that, there's not much anyone can do. He wouldn't even tell me who he sold it to. But anyway, I've already said what happened a bunch of times. Let's not hijack the thread.

[snakeman]

Its a shame but it is what it is.Unfortunately not a whole lot of people are into northwesterns.If they can't sell it they are not going to buy it.

I find that hard to believe. You said yourself what you had given up to get these hets, (it was a lot) and yet all of you balked at the idea of me paying a few hundred dollars for the one and only albino northwestern known in existence. Saying "I would wait". Wait for what? The next opportunity which may never come?

You did it because if you are successful in producing pied garters, you know they'll be worth a fortune. You didn't make that kind of investment because your "only concern is to keep this gene alive for the hobby's sake". That's bull.

And nobody seems to recognize that this albino northwestern is the key to producing all kinds of new morphs. The potential was there to bring new morphs of this species to the hobby and bring them out of obscurity, and yes, even make money, but the attitude about that was completely different and nobody thought I should pay the guys asking price. I simply wanted to preserve that albino gene for the hobby but nobody even shared that concern. My motivation really was to keep the gene alive. Nobody gave a damn, and discouraged me from even trying to buy it.

Now you come along and pay an arm and a leg for hets from a snake that may or may not be a genetic trait and claim you did it to preserve them for the hobby. That's quite hard to swallow. Personally, I don't care why you did it and don't care if it was to make money. I just find your stated reason hard to swallow. Might be a little easier to believe if your "hobby" wasn't a registered business. Pharmaceutical companies invest millions to find new drugs. They sure as heck don't do it to help people get well. There's only one reason they invest so much and we all know what that reason is.

[katach]

Its a shame but it is what it is.Unfortunately not a whole lot of people are into northwesterns.If they can't sell it they are not going to buy it.

I LOVE NW. I have 3 adults and 8 babies. I plan on breeding my red-stripe soon with Chantel's red-stripe.

[ConcinusMan]

Its a shame but it is what it is.Unfortunately not a whole lot of people are into northwesterns.If they can't sell it they are not going to buy it.

Well in the hands of breeder that albino could have eventually produced albinos of all different stripe colors and patterns, and since erythristic and melanistic ones are pretty common, also could have produced erythristic albinos, and possibly snows. I guess my point is, where there is no market now, one can create one. Creating the new morphs can change what you are saying "not many people into them" well maybe there would be if there were some new morphs and other striking looking snakes available. I've already seen just since I've joined, an increased interest in this species.

You would spit a brick if you knew what I was offered for miss piggy, and she's just a normal red stripe. Even Jeff made quite a generous offer for her, which I turned down for a better offer. The interest is there, and increasing every day. In fact, I never did fill all the "orders" for people wanting me to get northwesterns for them. Personally I don't understand why they aren't more popular. Atratus are, and they're damn near the same snake. There's an active thread right now about someone asking if they can get them.

[RedSidedSPR]

I LOVE NW. I have 3 adults and 8 babies. I plan on breeding my red-stripe soon with Chantel's red-stripe.

I know, they're really cool. I'm surprised they're not more popular..

Actually i'm not THAT surprised just because of how much harder it is to produce them, therefore they're less available, therefore less popular...

But cool snakes.

[RedSidedSPR]

I guess my point is, where there is no market now, one can create one. I've already seen just since I've joined, an increased interest in this species.

This is true. I'd love it if they became more available, and i can see it happening in the future.

[kibakiba]

It's because they are extremely lovable, small, and for the most part, they calm down a lot faster.

[katach]

When we caught Willow, she didn't even musk me. She's been just as calm and sweet as if she were a captive bred.

[kibakiba]

Mama was a bit wild, she musked me (or maybe it was Runt who did that) after a little squirming she just kind of gave up. She had a diva like attitude for the first 3 months of owning her, then one day she just acted so sweet. Of course, it was a couple days after I got her to eat her first pinky.

[d_virginiana]

They always calm down once it really sinks in that you give them the good food :)

[kibakiba]

Tell that to Hades. I feed him worms every 3 days, he loves it and goes crazy for them... But still thinks biting me is the answer to all of his problems :p

[ConcinusMan]

They always calm down once it really sinks in that you give them the good food :)

If only that were true:cool:

[infernalis]

True, (seriously, I'm with ya there) but I'm sure the gene-preservation is part of it too. Who doesn't want to keep the pieds going?

A shame too, that you couldnt get that albino, would have loved to have gotten some albino NWs going.

Wow, amazing... You know just what motivates Jeff, alongside your strong breeding knowledge, your genetics expertise and all that amazing husbandry advice on species that have never passed through your young hands, I'd say you are well on your way to the "reptile hall of fame". :rolleyes:

[RedSidedSPR]

I was just agreeing... I meant nothing against Jeff, and was actually saying Richard was WRONG, just that I agreed with some of what he said...

I dont know if i just word everything wrong(happens a lot sorry), or what, but you keep nailing me for saying things, and I have no idea why.

And btw, my age doesn't limit my knowledge as much as you might think.

[kibakiba]

Well, you do act like you know absolutely everything. And, you do talk in absolutes even when what your absolutely sure about is very wrong.

[RedSidedSPR]

What the hell. I don't try to act like that, never thought I did, and try not to say things Im not sure of. most of the time, I'm 100% sure, even if it is wrong, sorry.

I could think of some things to say to you, but I won't because I know you don't try to.

[kibakiba]

If you want to, go ahead... But do it in a PM since it doesn't belong on this thread. You aren't going to hurt my feelings.

[RedSidedSPR]

Nope. That wasn't why I said that, I have no reason to insult you and won't.

[kibakiba]

And I wasn't trying to insult you. It was something I merely noticed and pointed out. I had no intention of being rude towards you, because I also have no reason to insult you.

[RedSidedSPR]

Well, if what you said is true, I'm sorry, and I'll try to fix it.

[infernalis]

You may not have realized it, but Richard called Jeff a liar, and you agreed.

If you want to play follow the leader, you could do well to chose a different example to follow. ;)

[d_virginiana]

Can we redirect the conversation? I don't see this going anywhere productive...

Just out of curiosity, is there anyone who is in the garter business who does *just* garters and that's their primary source of income? I know there are people who make enough off of them to have registered businesses, but I was always under the impression that if you wanted to really make money off of snakes you had to get into stuff like ball pythons or certain types of boas..

[infernalis]

There is no one that I can think of who makes a complete living from garter snakes.

Scott Felzer moves more babies a year than anyone else I know of, and he still has to go to work to survive.

[RedSidedSPR]

You may not have realized it, but Richard called Jeff a liar, and you agreed.

I didn't see it as him calling him a liar... maybe there's something I didn't pick up on. I saw a few things that made sense AND THAT I HAD NOTICED. So I agreed, then went on to say that he's mostly mistaken.


If you want to play follow the leader, you could do well to chose a different example to follow. ;)

Follow the leader? C'mon. I don't know why people suddenly see me as a know it all who thinks he knows everything, and that I just agree with everything, but I don't.

If it really seems like that, I apologize to everyone, and will try to fix it.

EDIT: sorry Lora, yes. I'm done.

[annulataarethebest]

Can we redirect the conversation? I don't see this going anywhere productive...

Just out of curiosity, is there anyone who is in the garter business who does *just* garters and that's their primary source of income? I know there are people who make enough off of them to have registered businesses, but I was always under the impression that if you wanted to really make money off of snakes you had to get into stuff like ball pythons or certain types of boas..

Is there anybody else who works with only garter snakes? At least on a scale similar to Scott? Maybe Jeff B? I'm sure a lot of the Hognose snake guys are rolling in money this year since that's the new "hot" snake. I couldn't see it possible to make a living just off of garter snakes. That's why it's best to keep a couple different species. :)

[ConcinusMan]

I didn't see it as him calling him a liar... maybe there's something I didn't pick up on.

You see it like it is, like I stated it. Unlike those who like to jump on me about things I say, you read what I said, and didn't read into it to find something or some motivation or hidden message that isn't there and isn't intended. You read what I said, instead of reading what you thought I meant. Don't worry. It's just a sickness they have. You haven't caught it. Wayne and a bunch of others would be much better off if they followed your example. You didn't see me calling him a liar because I didn't. Nothing wrong with you.



If you want to play follow the leader, you could do well to chose a different example to follow. ;)

I thought that was Chantel's job. She's always like "yeah, what he said"

Forget it RedSided, There's no way to defend yourself once they get like this and start on you. Just walk away. Even if you're right, you're wrong at this point. Let me show you how it backfires to defend your statements:

Wayne, first of all, I've only called one person on this forum a liar and that's because he lied to me, denied lying to me, and then proved he lied by statements made in a public post. It's not slander to call someone a liar if they are one. If he wasn't lying to me, he was lying in his post. Either way. Liar. I don't take such an accusation lightly or flat out call people a liar unless they prove to be one beyond a shadow of a doubt.

Secondly, I didn't once call Jeff a liar. I was just expressing doubt that his motivation was purely to "preserve the gene" and I'll tell you why I doubt:

#1 A business doesn't let go of valuable assets to that degree unless they are gambling on a future return. I refer to the high price he paid in valuable merchandise for the offspring of that pied snake.

#2 If the motivation was to preserve the gene, that had already been done, if it can be done at all, since that snake did have offspring already. If the offspring hadn't gone to him, they surely would have went to someone else (and some did) who had breeding them in mind. Again, gene already preserved as far as we know, if it is indeed genetic. So, with gene already "preserved" what motivation does that leave for paying the high price to have those offspring?

#3 He didn't put up a dime or give a damn about preserving the albino gene for northwesterns. Why? I suspect it's because he doesn't think there's a market for them, or he can't make any money or return on such an investment, so why the sudden change of heart? I was offered money to help acquire that snake from someone who didn't give a damn about a return. Like me, they just wanted to see that gene preserved for the hobby and didn't care if I was the one that ended up with the specimen.

Now, if I made a statement and had all that stacking up to create doubt as to the truthfullness of my statement, I would fully expect any of you to doubt it and/or call me out on it so I did the same.

Now, if you do defend yourself and make a valid point, that's right about the time people want you to shut up. Either that, or they can see you're right and want you to shut up before you get a chance to prove it. Quit while your behind sort of thing. Either way you're screwed.

Now watch RedSided. Watch how it backfires on me....

[kibakiba]

I don't really say "yeah, what he/she said". Maybe a few times when I was newer. Maybe when giving advice I might say, for example... "Like -name- said, blah blah blah." But I don't really follow the "leader". IMO no one is really "leader" qualified in my book. Perhaps you're thinking about someone else. Sorry to disappoint you. The only "leader" I follow is myself. I do have the highest respects for everyone who has helped me and has shared the wealth of knowledge that they have... But, of course, it seems more like you're being a troll towards me.

[Chondro788]

Well since no one else is saying it, here goes! I wanted some pie bald hets because they will be extremely popular, and in that sense profitable. I keep over 100 garters, and the time and money I spend needs to come back from time to time. I have invested thousands in the last year, and thousands of man hours. I do it because I enjoy it, but I'm not going to do it just to throw money away. If this makes me a greedy prick, so be it. There are plenty of hobbies that help pay for themselves, or even make a little money, and that's fine. Like Jeff said, money does make the world go round and we can't forget that. Where would our country be without capitalism?? The people that disgust me are the ones who collect thousands of wild caught animals just to make a buck, that seems unethical.
Anyways, this was meant to say what it is without sugar coating. Some may be offended, but it is what it is.

[kibakiba]

It doesn't make you a greedy prick to want to make money off of your hobby. I think everyone would love to make money off of a hobby that they do. There isn't anything wrong with it. I started soap and lotion making with just the intent on making things for myself and family, but found that there is a good amount of money to be made in selling the high quality products that I make. I don't think that makes me a greedy person in any sense. You have to pay for all the supplies used on garters and feeding, enclosures and vet care, along with paying for your own living expenses... So making money on the side with some pets that you breed isn't wrong. It does get expensive.

[d_virginiana]

I have to agree with both of you there. Wanting some amount of money return doesn't make you greedy, it just ensures that you can keep enjoying your hobby without totally emptying out your wallet.

The color of a snake has nothing to do with personality, so why did I pay nearly $200 a flame baby this summer? Because I want to breed it to my snake in the future, and it can produce flame babies in the first generation. Those babies will likely be pretty easy to sell to family, friends, and people online because they are a popular morph. It'd be difficult to even get rid of a litter of normal babies, and I hate the idea of selling snakes dirt cheap because they'd probably end up as feeders. I'm not doing that just to make money (clearly; her mate is going to be a Florida Blue), but I would like to at least break even on supplies so that I can continue my hobby.

[ConcinusMan]

I have to agree with both of you there. Wanting some amount of money return doesn't make you greedy

Agreed. If you want to make money, then I would say that trying to do it by breeding garters isn't a very good way to do it.

[RedSidedSPR]

Agreed. If you want to make money, then I would say that trying to do it by breeding garters isn't a very good way to do it.

Not a living, but a litter of $200 snakes would fund SOMETHING....

[ConcinusMan]

Yeah, it would fund more snakes and the upkeep on the ones you have, at least. That is, if it wasn't so damn hard to sell snakes this year. Apparently, I only owned two snakes that anyone wants. They sold in the first hour and every other inquiry is asking about the same two.:rolleyes:

[RedSidedSPR]

Which two??!

[ConcinusMan]

The only two that have sold so far. I already said which two are sold in the ad but it's Amy and Olivia. (orange Iowa albino radix, and pastel checkered)

[infernalis]

Not a living, but a litter of $200 snakes would fund SOMETHING....


Only if you have customers to sell them to, otherwise it's a litter of snakes that require food and housing.

[RedSidedSPR]

Ah...

I'd buy some from you, but can't. I'd take Mighty Mouse, but can't...

[RedSidedSPR]

Only if you have customers to sell them to, otherwise it's a litter of snakes that require food and housing.

Yeah, true, but there's gonna be buyers most of the time.. especially those high dollar flames, etc.

[infernalis]

Yeah, true, but there's gonna be buyers most of the time.. especially those high dollar flames, etc.


Not really, you stand a far better chance at turning a profit breeding geckos or ball pythons.

[RedSidedSPR]

Well sure, but still... especially if you're well known like Scott.

What do I know.

[BUSHSNAKE]

oh really, what kind of geckos? what kind of ball pytons?

[Chondro788]

I think no matter what you breed you have to have the right animals at the right time. I bred Ball Pythons for 5 years and they were not always "easy to sell" even when you have the popular morphs. As for Leopard Geckos, I found them a hard sell due to the supply, way too many people breeding them. And thats how I see Ball Pythons now. No one is getting the high prices like they used to, and new morphs are worth a fraction of what new morphs were back in the begining. The first year I hatched pastels was 1999 and they were very hard to sell because people were not that into Ball Pythons yet, and didn't want to drop the big bucks. Same with Garters right now. Give them time. They may not be the next Ball Python, but they are gaining alot of attention in the hobby, and they will become easier to sell as this happens. I have sold quite a few baby Garters this year, just by advertising here, and on fauna.

Anyways, I think this is what Jeff was alluding to when he mentioned how important the piebald morph is for the hobby. The piebald will thrust Garter Snakes into the spot light, and we will see an influx of new people wanting all the species and morphs, not just the pied. Just my two cents.. :cool:

[infernalis]

Anyways, I think this is what Jeff was alluding to when he mentioned how important the piebald morph is for the hobby. The piebald will thrust Garter Snakes into the spot light, and we will see an influx of new people wanting all the species and morphs, not just the pied. Just my two cents.. :cool:


2 cents and change to spare...

Jeff is not a BS kind of guy, he takes his rep seriously, goes above and beyond to ensure his customers are satisfied with their purchase and he pays close attention to genetics and bloodlines.

People like him are an asset to our hobby.

[RedSidedSPR]

Jeff rocks. Never meant anything against him.:)

Well said Jason.

[ConcinusMan]

Now lets just see how little time it takes before people are breeding F6 piebalds. It's not like we can pull another unrelated one out of thin air.

[Jeff B]

Same with Garters right now. Give them time. They may not be the next Ball Python, but they are gaining alot of attention in the hobby, and they will become easier to sell as this happens. I have sold quite a few baby Garters this year, just by advertising here, and on fauna.

Anyways, I think this is what Jeff was alluding to when he mentioned how important the piebald morph is for the hobby. The piebald will thrust Garter Snakes into the spot light, and we will see an influx of new people wanting all the species and morphs, not just the pied. Just my two cents.. :cool:

Nailed it Jason! Write that down Richard and in a few years you can regurgitate it as your vison.

[Jeff B]

Oh by the way, Jason your snakes shipped out tonight and I included an extra surprise FREE pair of hypo x green axanthic chicagos ($400 list price)....just because I am so money driven greedy :) enjoy and good luck with them, hope you prove them out before me....for the hobbies sake:cool:....oh wait that would mean I won't be able to quite my day job and be a snake bumb and write garbage on this forum all day long.

[annulataarethebest]

I'm disappointed I never got any sort of reply to the Pied hets ad... Emailed 3 different times, every time he posted that ad I emailed him telling him I would buy them that day and nothing. If you're not gonna reply to emails at least give a phone number or lemme know where to send this carrier pidgeon....

[Chondro788]

I'm disappointed I never got any sort of reply to the Pied hets ad... Emailed 3 different times, every time he posted that ad I emailed him telling him I would buy them that day and nothing. If you're not gonna reply to emails at least give a phone number or lemme know where to send this carrier pidgeon....

Jeff, your AWESOME!!! Can't wait to see the little buggers!!! :D

Mike, I feel your pain man! I did the same thing, and I am DONE with this guy. I don't care if he offered them to me for $50, I feel he is misleading, and unprofessional. The fact that he would advertise these for $520, then $625, and now $600 is proof this guy is shady. In my opinion, the pied couldn't have ended up in worse hands... :mad:

I'll wait for Jeff, Scott, or Don to prove this gene or have some poss hets, and I will go from there. They are the ones who will make this gene thrive, I hope the original guy kept NOTHING from the clutch, as it seems to me we do not need him in this hobby anyway. :cool:

[infernalis]

Oh by the way, Jason your snakes shipped out tonight and I included an extra surprise FREE pair of hypo x green axanthic chicagos ($400 list price)....just because I am so money driven greedy :) enjoy and good luck with them, hope you prove them out before me....for the hobbies sake:cool:....oh wait that would mean I won't be able to quite my day job and be a snake bumb and write garbage on this forum all day long.

http://images.cheezburger.com/completestore/2010/3/30/129144630483168792.jpg

[RedSidedSPR]

Oh by the way, Jason your snakes shipped out tonight and I included an extra surprise FREE pair of hypo x green axanthic chicagos ($400 list price)....just because I am so money driven greedy :) enjoy and good luck with them, hope you prove them out before me....for the hobbies sake:cool:....oh wait that would mean I won't be able to quite my day job and be a snake bumb and write garbage on this forum all day long.

See? Jeff rocks.:D

[ConcinusMan]

Nailed it Jason! Write that down Richard and in a few years you can regurgitate it as your vison.

Not exactly a new concept. I already said the same thing when I was trying to acquire that albino northwestern. I figured it had the potential to do the same thing, specifically for the T. ordinoides species. To bring the species out of obscurity. Of course nobody heard me already say basically the same damn thing so don't talk to me about regurgitating it as my vision. I already said it earlier and I'm sure others had the same idea before me.:cool:

Now, a few of the really nice examples of T. ordinoides I have caught and shared pictures of in the past couple of years, I believe, have brought more attention to them and more interest, and those were mainly just normals. Just think what I could do if I had the only albino northwestern in captivity. Just like what you're saying about having the piebald. Given the high degree of polymorphism, truly unique albinos could be created.


Oh by the way, Jason your snakes shipped out tonight and I included an extra surprise FREE pair of hypo x green axanthic chicagos ($400 list price)....just because I am so money driven greedy :)

Just for the record, I didn't hear anybody call you greedy. I don't think anybody here thinks you're greedy including myself.


..oh wait that would mean I won't be able to quite my day job and be a snake bumb and write garbage on this forum all day long.

Uh yeah. Some of us have the kind of job where we can post while we're at work and on the clock. I have such a job. Once the evaporators are up and running all there is for me to do is take samples once an hour and run them to the lab. The rest of the time, it's just watching the dang thing and switching feed tanks when one becomes empty.:D

[Jeff B]

I think if I would have been working with at the time or wanted to work with ordinoides I would have been interested in that albino, but the fact is I have never owned an ordinoides. I just didn't have any interest in working with them at the time, nor do I now, of course that is subject to change. Plus I wasn't real comfortable with the deal or that kind of deal with someone I don't know or trust.
Richard why didn't you aquire that albino when you had the opportunity, seems your the only one really heart broke over it?
My focus over the next few years will be the pied and plugging other morphs into it, so no danger of inbred F6 here, I have lots of unrelated females of various morphs to plug pied into. It will be nice if my hard work and investment with the pied will at least pay for food and supplies, but if it never makes me a penny you won't hear me whining and crying about it. Hell, I had a terrible production and sales this season and I will probably be claiming a 4-5K loss on my business taxes this year. Will that stop me from breeding? No, so what's my motivation, if not for the love of working with the animals and the love of creating and sharing the hobby with others?

[jitami]

Jeff, you've always been on the up and up and I really look forward to seeing what you produce. Best of luck with all of your projects!

[ConcinusMan]

Richard why didn't you aquire that albino when you had the opportunity

I've already explained that numerous times. I guess you still missed it.


seems your the only one really heart broke over it?

It's always sad to see a very rare and probably once in a lifetime opportunity go down the drain, don't you think? Heartbroke? Not really, but to say that your pied and the opportunity to bring it into the hobby and make new morphs is any less important than the albino ordinoides is to have a double standard. What if any of the albino strains we have today had been so rare that only one had been found in many decades, and what if they had never been brought into production? What if the only "Iowa" albino found in 30 years had slipped away and never got to breed? (obviously that didn't happen since they are found nearly every year) Think about it. The one albino T. ordinoides wasnt' very spectacular and in itself wasn't very significant (other than it's extreme rarity) but with the polymorphism of T. ordinoides, even more was at stake. Like producing truly one a of kind snakes from that one gene. Not just a bunch of carbon copies. Surely you can see that.

No, I'm not the only one sad that it slipped away. Like I said, I had people put up money for me to buy it. Unfortunately, that wasn't enough. There were other problems with aquiring it. Mainly the fact that this was just a kid who cared nothing about any of this and knew even less about reptiles, much less garter snakes and the hobby as a whole.

[Jeff B]

Yeah I don't under estimate the potiential of that snake for someone working with ordinoides like yourself or others, but I'm not sure that snake would have arrived to my house regardless how much money I threw at it. The pied has more to offer for me because I have more easterns, in terms of total number of snakes as well as different morphs to cross into pied, not to mention I have done a lot of business with Bill so I am very comfortable moving the kind of funds and trade animals into the het pieds project via Bill. Just because you have a snake doesn't mean you can sell it, even I have felt that. As it turns out I have almost as much invested in this group of hets as if I would have just bought the female pied in the first place but I am more comfortable with my risk/reward from both a business and personal standpoint with the way it all played out.

[ConcinusMan]

Then that's all that matters. You're satisfied. Now I'm routing for you. I won't be active in the forum much longer. I might even be largely absent for a year or three, and I'm sure that won't break anyone's heart but I assure you I will be paying attention and waiting to see how this pans out.

[annulataarethebest]

Jeff, I don't mean to sidetrack the topic here... But can you really claim a $5,000 loss on taxes for snakes???? I'm just asking because I've probably spent $20,000 on snakes this year and did not get anywhere near that much in return...

[jitami]

Jeff, I don't mean to sidetrack the topic here... But can you really claim a $5,000 loss on taxes for snakes???? I'm just asking because I've probably spent $20,000 on snakes this year and did not get anywhere near that much in return...

I'll let Jeff be more specific, but generally, yes. If you run your hobby like a business and every so many years you show a profit you can claim the losses in off years. I don't know if you need a business license or what the specifics are, though.

[ConcinusMan]

Jeff, I don't mean to sidetrack the topic here... But can you really claim a $5,000 loss on taxes for snakes???? I'm just asking because I've probably spent $20,000 on snakes this year and did not get anywhere near that much in return...


You don't have to pay business taxes on losses, obviously. When a business (and yes, that means a legit registered, tax paying business) goes to figure their taxes on their gross sales, any net losses can be deducted. He's not talking about personal taxes. You may have spent $20,000 but that's not the same as a business taking a $20,000 loss. You have inventory to show for your money I would assume, minus any upkeep expenses.

[Jeff B]

Well it is a bit complicated, and that is why I pay an accountant to figure most of it out and fill out forms ect. but Garter Snake Morph is a licenced and registered sole proprietorship business, for which I have to keep track of all expenditures and sales, and claim and pay taxes. I am estimating based on previous total expenditures and the lack of total gross production and sales that I will be very negative this year, at the very least several K. and if it wasn't for some ball python babies that I produced sales would be much more negative. I also did some investing this year. Next year I will really need to limit purchases and have reasonable sales to at least show a small profit or probably just fold the business.

[Eddie]

My het pieds arrived today! I can not wait to see if these guys prove out. I would love to eventually plug in melanistics and possibly produce black and white morphs. I wonder if the black would just take over?
Good luck to all that ended up with hets!
Ed

[Chondro788]

My het pieds arrived today! I can not wait to see if these guys prove out. I would love to eventually plug in melanistics and possibly produce black and white morphs. I wonder if the black would just take over?
Good luck to all that ended up with hets!
Ed

Well it worked in Ball Pythons... but I guess the super cinny works a little different from the melanistic, but still I'm with you, I hope it works out!!! :cool:

[BUSHSNAKE]

good luck with your hets Ed

[Eddie]

Thanks Joe
They are all eating as I type. No prob with worm scented chopped pinks.
By the way your shipment will be to you by noon tomorrow
Ed

[Jeff B]

Thats awesome Ed, glad you got a pair, good luck with them. My normal 66% poss het albino florida thru over a dozen jelly beans yesterday, so hopefully next spring they will be old enough and the male will do his job and those jelly will be babies next summer.

[Invisible Snake]

Hey so anyone who bought the pied hets have any updates?

[ssssnakeluvr]

mine died..... :(

[guidofatherof5]

Sorry to hear that Don. Any idea on a cause of death?

[Chondro788]

I have 2 het males doing very well. They will be put with some females in the spring in hopes of creating some poss het females to raise up and eventually breed back. Its a long process, but well worth it to me.

[Eddie]

I have a male and female at breeder size now. I am going to let them grow for the rest of the season and cool them down for December and January. Then breed them and see what happens. I also have another male that is not quite a breeder size just yet. He is eating well just not a fast grower like his brother and sister.
How's everyone else's het's doing?
Ed

[Jeff B]

I have 3 het pied males that are breeder size now and doing great. All 7 of my females and 2 males died right away when I got them, they looked like they had some kind of white patches of fungus on them. Never seen anything like it. I had a 4th male that was doing great and I traded it to Jason, so he would have 2 for backup and I figured I didn't need 4. I'm kind of ticked off that all my females died and didn't get replaced like someone elses did, so I will be taking the long hard way with proving out poss hets like Jason.

[Eddie]

Jeff
Sorry to here that all your females died. That stinks! One of my females died very early on so I thought I might lose them all. Two of them grew like weeds and I could probably try to breed them now but I think I am going to wait till next spring at this point.
Good luck with the males. I will let you know if I end up with any baby females and send you one or two.
Ed

[Dan72]

Ed are you breeding the brother and sister to each other?

[Eddie]

Yes, I am going to breed the brother and sister together to try and prove out the pied gene.
Ed

[Invisible Snake]

Big news, Scott Felzer has proved out the trait and will be selling piebald garters this year!!

[ConcinusMan]

I don't know if he actually did or even claimed he did, but if you look at his website it seems like he did. You can bet they're going to be expensive. Personally, they don't really even appeal to me. I hardly think a normal snake with a few white spots on it is all that thrilling. To each his own I guess. Now, if it was mostly white with a few normal spots, that would be awesome.

[Greg'sGarters]

Scott Felzer will be selling pieds next year. He told me that they would cost $1000-$5000 each. I'm so excited!

[ConcinusMan]

Good grief

[Greg'sGarters]

Good grief

I know, it's crazy. You should see the looks on my friends faces when I tell them that a garter snake, the type they can catch around here can sell for up to $5000! Lol. I'm probably going to wait unit the price drops in a few years before I get one. New morphs will come out and the piebalds will go for less.

[ConcinusMan]

Not really. The only way they'll go for less is if people don't buy them at that price and supply starts piling up.

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

that is what happened with amel redsided garter snakes. They went from being like $350 to under 100 in a VERY short time frame...

[Greg'sGarters]

How about if everyone buys them and people who are breeding them start to lower their prices to compete with each other. When Spider Ball Pythons came out, they were $18,000 each. Now they are $500 each AT MOST.

[Greg'sGarters]

I don't know if he actually did or even claimed he did, but if you look at his website it seems like he did. You can bet they're going to be expensive. Personally, they don't really even appeal to me. I hardly think a normal snake with a few white spots on it is all that thrilling. To each his own I guess. Now, if it was mostly white with a few normal spots, that would be awesome.

Someone should do that! They can call it a reverse piebald! Or a super piebald. I like reverse piebald better.

[ConcinusMan]

And in spite of all the "oooh's and aaah's" from people, a year ago I couldn't sell a blue concinnus for $50. This year they were "flying off the shelf" at $100. Some things you just can't figure. Just because a morph is new, doesn't mean the price won't go up or at least stay the same.

Anyway, the amel red sides for sale a while down the road, are probably not really worth as much as the early ones anyway, for the simple fact that they are likely inbred for more generations. The price not only dropped fast, but inbreeding issues popped up fast too. If the price of these piebalds remains that damn high, I give it maybe 5 years and we'll be looking at bug eyes and neurological issues.

[Greg'sGarters]

And in spite of all the "oooh's and aaah's" from people, a year ago I couldn't sell a blue concinnus for $50. This year they were "flying off the shelf" at $100. Some things you just can't figure. Just because a morph is new, doesn't mean the price won't go up or at least stay the same.

$100?!?!?! I was willing to pay like $175 for a baby! ***Cough cough***I mean I think $50 sounds like a good price if it's a breeder. :D

[ConcinusMan]

I think most of the CB babies showing signs of the trait went for $40-$50 this year. Normal looking ones went for less. In retrospect I could have gotten more, but I wanted to unload them fast. It's a lot of work feeding 90 babies.


$100?!?!?! I was willing to pay like $175 for a baby!

Well in that case I'll be a nice guy and let you have one for $160 next season.:D But don't tell anyone. Everyone else will have to pay regular price.:p

I honestly don't know why Scott didn't jump right on these early on when I offered a trade. I was even willing to see that he had the only breeding adults besides my own. He would have made a handsome profit by now. But for some reason, he's got a problem with concinnus' and won't work with them. :confused:

Just my opinion, but I'd much rather have a stunning blue concinnus then that ugly piebald.

[Greg'sGarters]

I think most of the CB babies showing signs of the trait went for $40-$50 this year. Normal looking ones went for less. In retrospect I could have gotten more, but I wanted to unload them fast. It's a lot of work feeding 90 babies.



Well in that case I'll be a nice guy and let you have one for $160 next season.:D But don't tell anyone. Everyone else will have to pay regular price.:p

I honestly don't know why Scott didn't jump right on these early on when I offered a trade. I was even willing to see that he had the only breeding adults besides my own. He would have made a handsome profit by now. But for some reason, he's got a problem with concinnus' and won't work with them. :confused:

Weird, because usually anything cool and new Scott jumps right on. And the fact that it's a trade would just sweeten the deal! How much will you be selling them for next year though? $100 for babies?

[ConcinusMan]

Don't know. Just like Scott, price will be set after all the litters are born. Will be adjusted up or down accordingly with supply and demand and depending on how fast I want to sell them. But seriously, I don't think they'll go as high as $100 for babies because of the simple fact that they aren't born blue, and inheritance of the trait varies. People want super blue ones and I would only charge that much if they're obviously very blue. The babies are a gamble. They might, or might not turn out very blue. But anyway, we got way off topic.

I seriously think that $1000 is too damn much. I mean, if they looked as cool as the pied ball pythons that would be one thing, but a few small white spots just doesn't cut it for me. But, if he can sell 'em for that, more power to him.

[Greg'sGarters]

I would like one if they had an original pattern where it wasn't white. Where it isn't white, the pattern looks blended if you know what I mean.

7800

[ConcinusMan]

I completely forgot about that one. Yeah, that one's pretty cool, but this is what I was looking at on his website. Not sure how the available babies are going to look but I don't really like this one at all. I don't know if the babies will be descended from that one above, or the one here:

http://www.albinogartersnake.com/images/DSC00749.jpg

[d_virginiana]

I like the first one, but I wouldn't even want the second one... My guess is that the price will probably start going down in a couple years. I imagine anyone who has one will be breeding it. I do worry about inbreeding like you mentioned though; with such valuable babies I bet there will be some people who just breed siblings and parents back to each other again and again to get whiter pieds. Even worse because this trait seems to go back to only one or two snakes (which was it?).

[ConcinusMan]

It's not really a problem even if it started with only one snake, IF you outcross with totally unrelated snakes every few generations. The thing is, with prices like that, especially if they're falling, people won't do that. They'll take the shortest route.

[Greg'sGarters]

The picture you posted up I forgot about. Lol. That looks to me like a reverse paradox more than a piebald. Yeah selling that as a piebald is like crossing 2 snakes missing a few scales here and there, and selling them as scaleless.

[BUSHSNAKE]

that is what happened with amel redsided garter snakes. They went from being like $350 to under 100 in a VERY short time frame...
thats what happens when supply exceeds demand...and when people are greedy lol not in that order tho

[ProXimuS]

I like that first one, but would never pay $1000 ore more for it, or any animals for that matter. I think that price is a little ridiculous....

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

How about if everyone buys them and people who are breeding them start to lower their prices to compete with each other. When Spider Ball Pythons came out, they were $18,000 each. Now they are $500 each AT MOST.

I don't think anyone is paying anywhere near that for spiders now. I see them for under $100 each now!

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

I like that first one, but would never pay $1000 ore more for it, or any animals for that matter. I think that price is a little ridiculous....

Eastern indigo
Boelen's python
Diamond pythons
high end USCBB emerald tree boas

All animals that are not only worth that, but I have and will continue to pay those kinds of prices for, because they are worth every penny! I am hoping to acquire a pair of boeleni in the next 5 years or so. It will probably run me around $5k. But let me tell you.... there ARE animals that are worth it and you are paying for their rarity, quality, and the people who have spent years or decades of their lives perfecting lineages and working on bringing them into the world.

Personally though, I will not pay $1k for an animal that is relatively common in our hobby simply because it's a morph. I just wait a few years if I really want one. But I've really moved away from morphs for the most part... they don't do it for me as much as keeping odd and interesting specimens that are top notch representatives of their species.

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

The picture you posted up I forgot about. Lol. That looks to me like a reverse paradox more than a piebald. Yeah selling that as a piebald is like crossing 2 snakes missing a few scales here and there, and selling them as scaleless.

Actually it could be as simple as this snake ingested something toxic and shed off color in some of it's scales. This has been seen in boas and some other species already. Boa gets a bad rat and BOOM, sheds off half it's color in one shed! I wouldn't call that one a pied either. pied animals should have at least a "patch" of white somewhere, and I haven't seen any true pied animal of any species where the remaining pattern on the snake was normal. If this DID prove out to be a morph of any kind, which I seriously doubt... it would fit better into the "calico" description... at least that is what most of those white flecked things are called these days. There are other reasons besides genetics which cause scales to lose all color... and given how small the areas are on that one, I would just be surprised to see it genetic. Not impossible, just improbable.

[annulataarethebest]

Supply and demand, Scott will be the only one with the piebalds available, therefore he gets to pick the price. I assume pieds that have only a couple patches of white here and there will be the cheaper ones, and the $5,000 price is reserved for the more white animals, and I could see them selling easily for those amounts... The first round of people who buy these snakes will most likely be other snake breeders who will be looking to reproduce the morph, so they'll just look at it as an investment that will take a couple years to pay off. But it would. If you put $1,000 into a piebald, or actually, let's say Scott hooked you up with a pied and a het pied for 1500, in 2-3 years you'll be producing 10-30 babies (at least) per year, with half being piebald, probably some more than others. Even if the price drops to 500 within that 3 years you'll still easily make your money back. Then after that the money is going to come from crossing other morphs into the piebald (i.e. piebald albino, piebald flame maybe??) to create some more designer garter snake morphs like the "Snow" eastern.
I also don't think inbreeding is as much of a problem with captive reproduction of morphs, of course you're going to have to breed siblings/relatives back to each other to establish a new morph, but it's going to take more than those first couple generations for any defects from inbreeding pop up. And most breeders will make sure to outcross animals anyhow.

[Tora]

so how do the pieds look now? or did Scott give up on them?

[Albert Clark]

:D
so how do the pieds look now? or did Scott give up on them?
Pieds are looking very good now. If you go to Scotts web page there is a pic of one there. Also Jeff Benfer has a pic of a pied garter on his web page "Garter snake morph". I don't think either one of them is giving up on the pied project any time soon. They are pricey right now. Welcome to the club! I'm new here also. Lol

[Jeff B]

Albert, there have been a couple litters produced with no pieds, so most have all but given up. It's a major bummer since that is one gene that really gets people excited, including myself. I gave up on producing pieds myself when my last poss het female died on me shortly after getting a substantial sized group of the alleged het pied babies. However, I still have two males in my possession, but I did not breed them to anything this year. Not sure why I still have them, other than a tiny bit of hope that Ed will still prove them out. Also, I should apologize, I have not updated my website in two years. One of these days I will have some free time to do that.

[Eddie]

I will still keep trying for the simple fact that what ever Bill sent us are still very nice looking even as normals!!

[Eddie]

Pieds would be killer though!!

[Jeff B]

I will still keep trying for the simple fact that what ever Bill sent us are still very nice looking even as normals!!

I agree Ed, my "het pieds" are very bright and crisp patterned looking.
I might just breed them to some other morph next year, just to outcross and brighten them up.
The thing is they look a lot like floridas and I had terrible luck getting floridas to breed. I know you have had some luck with floridas though.
I hope you make a pied, that would be a big boost for fans of garter morphs. Of course there will be those who say they are ugly, but I think pied combos would be the ultimate garter morphs. Can you imagine a flame pied or a melanistic pied (panda pied) or a golden pied or albino pied or even a florida blue pied would be awesome.

[Zdravko092368]

I think pied combos would be the ultimate garter morphs. Can you imagine a flame pied or a melanistic pied (panda pied) or a golden pied or albino pied or even a florida blue pied would be awesome.


Oh man, now wouldn't all of those just be fantastic, now i'll be thinking about those all the time lol. Speaking of the golden pied, do you work with those now and you have any recent photos of the ones you have?

[Albert Clark]

Wow, o.k. I thought the project was still going on. Thanks for the bulletin. Lol. Nice to know.

[Tora]

I figured they'd still be expensive but it's neat to know that they haven't been completely given up on yet!

[Eddie]

I think "panda" pieds would be the best of them all. LOL

[Jeff B]

I think "panda" pieds would be the best of them all. LOL
Erythristic flame pied would do it for me :D To each there own.

[Albert Clark]

Erythristic flame pied would do it for me :D To each there own.
I would just be happy to work with a "het" pied. I am going to keep my eye on getting one soon. Thanks. :D

[Tommytradix]

any updates on these ed?

[Eddie]

I have 1 female "het" left

[Tommytradix]

that sucks

[Reedsbreeds]

Idk how to post pictures yet. I have top notch piebald/leucistic plains garters I will be producing this year! I call them pearls, I call the hets fires. These are supreme when it comes to either leucism or piebalbism. Pink/pearly/lavender colored faces. Much nicer than whats on scotts page, and much nicer than the eastern in the pic with the dollar bill. And there's no such thing as a low white! At least not yet. I'll start posting pics.