Wild tetrataenia

[sauceman]

Hello everyone. I am new here and have not posted before.

I wanted to report that I was field herping with two friends yesterday in San Mateo County, California and, between the three of us, we observed eight wild Thamnophis sirtalis tetrataenia. It was an incredible thrill to observe these animals going about their business in their natural habitat. This particular population seems to be doing pretty well, despite the presence of invasive American Bullfrogs (though not many of these were seen).

The ironic part was that, while three Thamnophis species were seen, the T. s. tetrataenia were most prevalent in this area. Thamnophis atratus atratus (one individual) and Thamnophis elegans terrestris (two individuals) were also observed.

I have spent time in several other areas hoping to find the elusive San Francisco Garter Snakes and had never seen one. It was certainly one of the highlights of my herping life and a very memorable experience.

Here are a couple of pictures:

http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6206/6045025762_0878ce985d_z.jpg

http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6078/6043841475_d72efdba00_z.jpg

http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6195/6043879245_e1fefbf6bf_z.jpg

[Stefan-A]

Neat.

[BLUESIRTALIS]

That's Awesome!

[RedSidedSPR]

Wow that really is awesome!!

[infernalis]

Thanks for posting the photos..

[PINJOHN]

thanks for posting those pictures were a real buzz i don't think i have seen photo's of naturally occurring san frans out side of the text and hobby books
great stuff

[reptileparadise]

Wow! Such a striking difference with the tetra´s in captivity! I like these so much more!!!!!!!!!!

[guidofatherof5]

Very cool.

[Starling96]

That's an awesome snake!

[jitami]

Awesome! Thanks so much for sharing the pics! I really hope to find one myself someday and this gives me a little more hope :)

[BUSHSNAKE]

very cool...the face of conservation

[charles parenteau]

very nice tanks for sharing with us!

[annulataarethebest]

beautiful snakes it's too bad us regular people aren't allowed to keep them.

[katach]

Those are so beautiful! Thank you for sharing your amazing outing with us.

[d_virginiana]

You're so lucky to be able to see them in the wild! Great pics and thanks for sharing!

[Spankenstyne]

Fantastic, they look great

[zooplan]

Thank you for sharing the photos.
If different species of Thamnophis are sharing one habitat, they are prefering different sights of it.
I would guess that Thamnophis atratus is most adapted to the water, Thamnophis sirtalis tetrataenia is prefering marshy areas around the shores and Thamnophis elegans should be found mostly on higher (and dryer) ground.

[sauceman]

Thanks for the feedback everyone. I am still enjoying the experience. Before this day, I had never seen a tetrataenia captive or otherwise. I see some incredible infernalis which are close but these were a huge treat.

[sauceman]

Thank you for sharing the photos.
If different species of Thamnophis are sharing one habitat, they are prefering different sights of it.
I would guess that Thamnophis atratus is most adapted to the water, Thamnophis sirtalis tetrataenia is prefering marshy areas around the shores and Thamnophis elegans should be found mostly on higher (and dryer) ground.

The atratus are certainly more adapted and dependent upon water sources. I usually see them in or very close to the water. However, I have had a couple of strange findings where I found atratus in areas that were dominated by T. elegans terrestris and the nearest water was several hundred yards away. At times, I have flipped artificial cover to find a stack of T. elegans terrestris and one T. atratus piled up together.

The terrestris that were found on Sunday were very close to the water, almost wet. All but one of the tetrataenia were adjacent to the ponds (within 5 feet or so) and would flee immediately into the pond upon being seen unless movements were meticulously slow and some natural obstruction such as a bush was used to approach.

It seems that these three species spend much of their time in the same habitat but, as you correctly pointed out, they each have different tendencies that are unique aside from the overlap. I believe one key difference is preferred food types. The terrestris seem to prefer eating slugs and other terrestrial food types, atratus seem to eat almost exclusively aquatic items such as small fish and tadpoles, and tetrataenia seem to dine almost exclusively on anurans (tree frogs, bullfrogs, and red-legged frogs).

[jitami]

Great insight by both of you. I've only had the pleasure of finding T. e. elegans and have found them both in/around water and relatively far from water. The ones in/near water react as sauceman described the tetrataenia and flee to the water when approached. A little wading was required to get a closer look :)

Oh, almost forgot about my underwater encounter with couchii... had one bump me repeatedly while sitting on a rock that was under water and saw several others in and around the same river, but they're known to be highly aquatic.

[guidofatherof5]

Oh, almost forgot about my underwater encounter with couchii... had one bump me repeatedly while sitting on a rock that was under water and saw several others in and around the same river, but they're known to be highly aquatic.

That's cool.;)

[jitami]

It was really cool... picture sitting calmly with a gold pan, sifting away... quick scream like a girl... HEY, it's a garter! Tried swimming after the little bugger with no success, go back to sitting on my rock and sure enough the little stinker bumped my leg again from underwater. I never was able to catch him/her. They swim way better than I do! lol

[sschind]

Cool pictures of beautiful snakes. I've always said that even the most common of snakes viewed in the wild is more of a thrill than the most endangered in captivity. You've got the absolute best of both worlds.


Hopefully you won't get into trouble posting pictures of an endangered species like a buddy of mine did here in Wisconsin with his E. Massasuga pictures. The DNR threatened to arrest him and made the website remove the pictures. No wonder everyone here hates them (the DNR that is)

[PINJOHN]

Why would posting photo's of endangered creatures be in any way illegal :confused::confused::confused::confused::confused: :confused

[drache]

thanks for the great photos
it's good to know that there is a population of healthy looking animals

[brain]

Why would posting photo's of endangered creatures be in any way illegal :confused::confused::confused::confused::confused: :confused


Cheese heads :D

[BUSHSNAKE]

people want their wildlife protected but when the DNR does their job people dont like it...i do alot of field herping so i understand what it would take to get a picture of an endangered snake...you have to hunt it down...

[brain]

people want their wildlife protected but when the DNR does their job people dont like it...i do alot of field herping so i understand what it would take to get a picture of an endangered snake...you have to hunt it down...

And to protect the place you found the snake you just post the snake itself, right. I haven’t heard anyone mention where they WC or seen the snake. So for DNR to strongly suggest you take the web site down … IMHO … is a bit extreme.:eek:

Another example of the government restricting us “for the good of all”. :mad:

[BUSHSNAKE]

more like for the good of the snake...sorry im on the DNR side on this one

[brain]

I just can’t see how, if, one could tell “where” (actual location) you seen the snakes location, from just a picture of the snake. Yes “if” it can be determined, the location of the snake’s origin, this information should not be made public for fear of raping the area, but just the picture of the snake.
I applause those who photo document an area and keep the location to themselves. Then share the wild picture with others. It gives me hope the spices is still in existence.

[BUSHSNAKE]

its not about giving away locale info. its about giving the animal protection...and your not protecting them when your hunting them down to take a picture, if you could do it then everyone can and thats not leading by example. in my state the massasauga is endangered and HIGHLY protected...trust me when i say they are PROTECTED and yes even photographing them can put them at risk

[ConcinusMan]

Why would posting photo's of endangered creatures be in any way illegal :confused::confused::confused::confused::confused: :confused

It's not if it's done right. Photographing the SF garters, even on public or protected habitat is perfectly legal. People have been doing this for decades. It's not doing any harm. Also, I keep hearing people saying you shouldn't give away locales and I even got chastized for giving up the location of my favorite spot for finding SF garters. Well, that's ridiculous because it's not a secret. The spot is very well known already and lots of people do get photos there. It doesn't appear to be having any effect on the snakes. Also, there are plenty of officers keeping a watchful eye in those areas to keep people from doing harm or walking out with snakes. Believe me, in those prime SF garter areas, you are being watched.

What they don't like is people that engage in destructive behavior, such as flipping, or other harmful activity in their quest for photos. I don't see how the DNR can force anyone to take down pictures. Sounds like someone is overstepping their authority.

[BUSHSNAKE]

you just be quit Richard :p

[ConcinusMan]

Now, you know better than that. What do you really think the chances are that I will comply?


people want their wildlife protected but when the DNR does their job people dont like it...i do alot of field herping so i understand what it would take to get a picture of an endangered snake...you have to hunt it down...

What a bunch of bull. I disagree. Go out at the right time of year and right conditions and your "hunting down" becomes nothing more than walking around until you find one basking. Flipping and other destructive, invasive behavior should be illegal if it isn't already, but photographing without doing the destructive and invasive activity? I'd fight that. There's no way they would tell me I can't go though an area, doing no harm, and taking photos.

There are places for SF garters where they don't mind if people come to take photos if that's all you're doing. Here in WA there is a disjunct population of CA mt. kingsnakes at Beacon Rock State Park in the columbia river gorge. Plenty of watchful officers are there to protect the snakes. Heck, they'll even point out the good spots and remind you that flipping or habitat destruction is highly illegal. They don't mind people coming to see and photograph them if they are in the open. There's nothing illegal about the use of a State Park and taking photos.

Oh, and I might point out that there's not a damn thing they can do about it if you do this on private property. Many very good spots for seeing SF garters are on private property. You could sit there and slaughter the snakes and there's not a damn thing they can do about it. I would be telling those officers to prove that I didn't take the photos of those rattlesnakes on private property. There's nothing they can do to you for posting photos of them.




And to protect the place you found the snake you just post the snake itself, right. I haven’t heard anyone mention where they WC or seen the snake. So for DNR to strongly suggest you take the web site down … IMHO … is a bit extreme.:eek:


They have no authority to make you take them down, or any authority to tell you that you can't reveal the location. No authority at all.

[Didymus20X6]

What happened to the principle of "innocent until proven guilty"? If the only evidence the DNR has are the pictures of the snakes - and nothing to indicate that the photographer is disturbing them, putting undue stress on them, or damaging their habitat - then the photographer shouldn't be treated like a criminal.

To force - or threaten to force - a photographer to take down his pictures or shut down his website is outside of the boundaries of their responsibility. I don't care whose good it's supposedly for.

[ConcinusMan]

Exactly. It's like they're just bullying you into submission, or at least, that's what they're hoping for. Like I said, they have no authority to do this at all. I would have responded with a resounding "hell no" if they talked to me like that. I would tell them if they have a reason or enough evidence to charge me with something, then go right ahead. Otherwise, shut up and kiss my...

Of course, I say the same thing to any law enforcement that tries to intimidate me. I always tell them if you had enough to charge me, we wouldn't be having this conversation so if that is all, we're done here.

They do know however, that most people have idea what their rights are in a situation like this and they will, and do, take advantage of that any chance they get. First thing I do when I am pulled over is get out of the car and lock the door behind me. Most people do not know you can do that and let the cops intimidate them into a search for which they have authority. Bottom line is, if they have to ask your permission, then they don't have the right and my answer is always no. That doesn't imply guilt.

Didn't mean to derail the thread or change the subject. Just driving home the point that they do not have the authority to tell you what to do with your own photos.

[PINJOHN]

A very interesting group of reply's, to tell the truth when i saw bushsnakes answer i thought my wildlife/herping /photographic, moral compass must be somewhat skiwiff, but i am relieved to see my feeling of indignation at authority over stepping it,s boundaries is shared by other's
my apologies if my question has side tracked this fantastic thread

[ConcinusMan]

Side tracked in a good way.;)

[RedSidedSPR]

As long as the OP doesn't mind, side tracking like that (with interesting info) is great imo.:D

[BUSHSNAKE]

ok then, the massasauga, the snake that started this is highly protected, the laws in wisconsin are the same in Illinois(where im at)they exsist is such small poulations and are extremely fragile...you can not just show up and take pictures like you can with the SF garter or the moutain king as stated by Richard, thats a fact not my opinion

[ConcinusMan]

ok then, the massasauga, the snake that started this is highly protected, the laws in wisconsin are the same in Illinois(where im at)they exsist is such small poulations and are extremely fragile...you can not just show up and take pictures like you can with the SF garter or the moutain king as stated by Richard, thats a fact not my opinion


OK then would you like to explain any laws that might be broken by taking photographs? Are the lands off limits to pedestrians/hikers? No. I don't think so. In fact, I know of one location that in spite of "protections" a walking path was built in such a location that walkers often encounter this snake on the path. The very building of the path put them at risk. I suppose it's illegal to break out a camera and photograph one that happens to be crossing the trail? Of course not.

I think you're wrong Joe. There may very well be locations that have protections (laws) in place to prevent such disturbances, and to prevent people from coming in and disturbing the snakes in any way but that's irrelevant. There are plenty of other locations and ways to photograph them without breaking any laws.

To say there is no legal way to get photos of these rattlesnakes is bullshyster. I think that would be highly dependent on location and method of acquiring such photos. Even with the other two snakes I mentioned, there are locations where this is possible and locations that are strictly off-limits.

[RedSidedSPR]

I was under the impression you could look, not touch... You could take all the photos you want, as long as you don't touch/disturb them...

do NOT quote me.:D thats just what i thought.

[guidofatherof5]

The "disturb" brush has a wide stroke and can be interpreted in many different ways.
Many laws are left broad in scope and left to the individual officer to interpret.
Which means one person many get a citation/ticket/arrest when another doesn't.
I'm not saying it's fair but it can happen this way.

[brain]

The "disturb" brush has a wide stroke and can be interpreted in many different ways.
Many laws are left broad in scope and left to the individual officer to interpret.
Which means one person many get a citation/ticket/arrest when another doesn't.
I'm not saying it's fair but it can happen this way.


Very true Steve and some laws need to more clear to John-Q. But to sschind posted that “The DNR threatened to arrest him and made the website remove the pictures.” That is what I have issues with, sounds like to me the guy had pictures of, and endangered species and for that you can get arrested? We spent years in the service of the pubic to protect rights not to hinder them.

Now “if” the guy obtained the photos by illegally, i.e. “flipping” or otherwise destorying habbitat and it law states this cannot be done in that area, then by all means prosecute. But how can one, as Richard said, “Tell how the photo was obtained.”

As put by Didymus20X6 What happened to the principle of "innocent until proven guilty"?

But Joe, I ask you, do really believe that it is ok, or not ok to post pictures of endangered species? :confused:

[ConcinusMan]

I think this might be why Joe gave a call today which I missed. I think this thread prompted his call. I noticed he doesn't get too involved in heated or passionate discussions here but we've had some damn good ones on the phone.

You've heard my opinion though. The officer, if quoted correctly, overstepped his authority. It's an empty threat. I do not have any problem with legally walking onto lands without breaking any laws and taking photos of the animals. I believe good photos can be obtained without doing any harm to the animals, and without breaking the law.

Heck, some of the best "in the field" photos I got of snakes only involved me walking down established paths in a park, early on a very cool morning when the snakes first begin to come out and bask. The snakes were still cold and reluctant to move. I approach slowly and take photos. The snakes don't seem to mind.



But Joe, I ask you, do really believe that it is ok, or not ok to post pictures of endangered species? :confused:

I know I'm not Joe, but of course it's OK. It's all in how the photos were obtained. I don't think it's OK to "flip" natural hides for them. I don't think it's OK to trespass to get them. I don't think it's OK to menace or molest the animals to get them, or to disturb or damage habitat, regardless of whether it's legal or not.


I know this isn't a snake, but I didn't have to trespass, break any laws, or significantly disturb the animals to get this shot. Patience pays off with persistence and good timing. Any photos worth having are worth getting in a way that does no harm and doesn't break any laws. This lizard seemed unconcerned with my presence mere feet away and finished his meal in peace. Now, had this been a critically endangered species and some officer threatened me and told me to take it down, I would most certainly go tell him to go take a flying leap. Right on the other side of those rocks would be perfect. It's nearly a straight down 75 foot drop.:p

http://desmond.imageshack.us/Himg577/scaled.php?server=577&filename=dsc00375large.jpg&res=medium

[Mrs N1ntndo]

Originally Posted by brain
But Joe, I ask you, do really believe that it is ok, or not ok to post pictures of endangered species?

Im not Joe either but I would like to say something..... If people take pics and dont desturb anything while doing it I see no problem. If "they" want us to watch out for endangered animals then pictures are a good thing to know what not to bother or be careful of. Sometimes people discribe something instead of showing pics but AI honostly have to se a pic to know what is talked about exactly. Plus I like to see pics of the beautiful animals no matter if they are endanged or not.I take pictures of EVERYTHING....lol yopu never know what you can catch on camera.

[Mrs N1ntndo]

http://desmond.imageshack.us/Himg577/scaled.php?server=577&filename=dsc00375large.jpg&res=medium[/QUOTE]

I love that pic. Thats awesome thank you for sharing. Just think I have never seen this and if someone took pics away then I might never see this in my life. I think this is an awesome pic.

[sauceman]

Wow, quite a discussion arose from my pics. This is the same discussion that I have had, both online and off, with many other field herpers. This comes up a lot with regard to the montane rattlesnake species of Arizona.

There is certainly a degree of interpretation within the language of the laws and it can be difficult to agree. Ultimately, these laws are for the protection of the animal. Morally, I have absolutely no issues as I know that I would do more to protect these animals than most people, including those that work for the agencies that protect them. I have told people in the past that, if I won $300 million in the Powerball, I would buy land and create a private tetrataenia reserve.

I can say that I could count on my hands the people on this planet that I would share a tetrataenia spot with. Those people include one noted herpetology professor, a couple of published authors, and a few individuals that I have known and evaluated for years. If people want to put in their work, they could find them on their own. There are even parks that have signs posted in the parking lot that say "watch out for endangered snakes" and feature an illustration of a SFG. A quick search online will tell you that these animals only occur in San Mateo County and will mention specific locations where there are remaining populations.

The animals shown were found in the open, basking around ponds. None were flipped. Most darted into the water too quickly to photo, especially after things warmed up. I will say that a couple of leisurely laps around the pond would have yielded several sightings for all but the most oblivious of people (and maybe some Major League Baseball umpires).

[BUSHSNAKE]

the only people i know from this area that have seen a massasauga in the wild are in the age group 50+...their numbers are so low 99.9% of their habitat is protected(off limits)do they show up on private land, maybe, maybe not, no ones talking...conservation efforts are hardcore in these parts, the subject may even be taboo, ive lived in this area my whole life and have herped almost every bit of illinois, ive never seen a massasauga in the wild and probably never will...and theyre out there and i myself would kill to see one but laws are protecting them very well, you need special permision and you better know somebody if you show up cuz if you dont it wont be good...and thats just how it is...

[ConcinusMan]

http://desmond.imageshack.us/Himg577/scaled.php?server=577&filename=dsc00375large.jpg&res=medium


I love that pic. Thats awesome thank you for sharing. Just think I have never seen this and if someone took pics away then I might never see this in my life. I think this is an awesome pic.

And I had never, EVER before in my life seen a collard lizard in person, in the field, and THIS is what I find for my first ever collard lizard?!!! One in the middle of eating a mouse! These are truly impressive lizards. They're not very flighty, and just sort of casually stay out of you way, allowing you to get very close. That also makes them very easy to catch. I'm used to trying to catch fence lizards and those are way more difficult. Collard lizards were no problem though. This sucker was about a foot long! Sorry, I did it again. Back to the issue of photographing endangered animals...

[RedSidedSPR]

Yeah, that was pretty darn awesome.

[ConcinusMan]

conservation efforts are hardcore in these parts, the subject may even be taboo, ive lived in this area my whole life and have herped almost every bit of illinois, ive never seen a massasauga in the wild and probably never will...and theyre out there and i myself would kill to see one but laws are protecting them very well, you need special permision and you better know somebody if you show up cuz if you dont it wont be good...and thats just how it is...

I don't believe that it's as hard core as you say. You probably heard about the walking path near Chicago that was built right through the middle of prime habitat, just feet from a den. That didn't stop them. They built it anyway. The snake is now being encountered by people walking on the path. Unfortunately, it doesn't usually end well for the snake. Not to mention all the snakes that were being killed by getting caught up in their erosion control nets during the construction process. People are seeing those snakes dang near every day. Just walk down that path. Plenty of photo ops.

You know, I'm not sure what's going on with this article that says it's "planned" Yikes: Planned $1.2 Million Bike Trail in Illinois Will Run Through Endangered Rattlesnake Area, $25,000 More Being Spent to Figure Out Problem « Frugal Café Blog Zone (http://www.frugal-cafe.com/public_html/frugal-blog/frugal-cafe-blogzone/2011/03/21/yikes-planned-1-2-million-bike-trail-in-illinois-will-run-through-endangered-rattlesnake-area-25000-more-being-spent-to-figure-out-problem/)

But what I saw must have been a different location. They actually did build the path I saw, mere feet from a massasauga den. Snakes have already been killed and continue to be found dead on the trail. So where's this "hard core" conservation effort? Why spend $25,000 to "figure out the problem" when all they have to do is ditch the bike path plan. Problem solved.

They want to do this, all while harassing people for taking pictures? Well, you know I have a few choice words about that, but I can't say them here.:mad:

[Didymus20X6]

I will say that a couple of leisurely laps around the pond would have yielded several sightings for all but the most oblivious of people (and maybe some Major League Baseball umpires).
http://i53.tinypic.com/2a5hcfq.png

[BUSHSNAKE]

come on now Richard you know i speek the truth...your story was probably from years ago and almost every population went throught habitat destruction thats why theyve become so rare and protected...90% of their habitat has been lost to stories just like yours...the construction of a major exressway was haulted when they found out it was gonna go right through the habitat of an endangered dragonfly

[Didymus20X6]

Not years ago. Look at the dates on the articles. Within the past few months would be a more correct assessment.

[ConcinusMan]

come on now Richard you know i speek the truth...your story was probably from years ago and almost every population went throught habitat destruction thats why theyve become so rare and protected...90% of their habitat has been lost to stories just like yours...the construction of a major exressway was haulted when they found out it was gonna go right through the habitat of an endangered dragonfly

The story about the path that has already been built, came out last summer while it was under construction. It's not years old. It's very recent. And this article about the proposed bike path was written this spring. They're actually considering doing this (again) in spite of the impact it will have on the snakes. It shouldn't even be something that they would consider at all.


habitat destruction thats why theyve become so rare and protected...90% of their habitat has been lost to stories just like yours..

And yet it continues. They are still doing it. I don't think throwing $25,000 down for a study on how to solve the problem of the snakes being in the way of the path plan, is going to help anything. Not building this bike path is the only real solution, yet they persist that they are going to do it in spite of the fact that it never worked out well for the snakes before. It's already been proven this will be harmful. I tell you what, they can give me the $25,000 and I will solve the problem for them. All I have to do is say "don't build the bike path. Problem solved. Now pay me"

[BUSHSNAKE]

bla bla bla bla

[ConcinusMan]

Yes, as I said already, a bike path has already been built and it already did impact the snakes. I wish I could find the article to show you. And now here they are planning another one, same scenario. Besides that, you're missing the point. They're willing to put these snakes at risk and spend $25,000 to "solve the problem" of their being a den very close to the proposed path. All for a freaking bike path? C'mon.

And they're going to tell me I can't stop to take a picture as if that is so harmful but the bike path isn't?

[BUSHSNAKE]

when you do find the article would you send it to me i would like to know more about this bike path

[Mrs N1ntndo]

LEt me know where this bike path is exactly and I should even be able to find it cause I like to look for things like that.

[ConcinusMan]

when you do find the article would you send it to me i would like to know more about this bike path

I will try but you know even if I don't find it, the link to the article I did provide says enough already. Now, if they're so damn worried about a few people "disturbing" them to take photos, then why are they even considering this project? Why they don't just build a damn freeway right on top of the den and get it over with.

Well I can't seem to find the damn story but I did find this. A similar project, though prime snake habitat, and the result wasn't good. Snakes continue to cross the path and get killed by bicycles or people who encounter them and kill them intentionally.

Field Herp Forum; View topic - Nylon Mesh Snake Death Trap (http://www.fieldherpforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=2515)

[sauceman]

http://i53.tinypic.com/2a5hcfq.png

Nice. Very nice.

[sschind]

Wow, I didn't mean for my comments to cause such a stir. Or maybe I did:D

Anyway, just a few details as I was told them about the massasauga pictures in my OP. The pictures were taken as the snakes were found basking, no flipping or other manipulation of the snakes had occurred. The pictures were taken on public land. There were no distinguishing landscape feature that would enable anyone to ID the are where they were found. The pictures were posted on a personal website (which is not active any more) with only the caption E. massasauga in Southern Wisconsin The discussion with the DNR agent was through PM and email. Specific threats of arrest were not made but insinuations that arrests could be made if the animals were disturbed in any way. The DNR agent knew exactly where the pictures were taken at from the photographers very limited description to him (public land in a particular county) The DNR agent admitted that the photographer had not broken any laws but kept saying things like "If you did..." and "People might..." The photos were left up for a couple of weeks then removed, I guess they didn't so much make him take them down as they convinced him that it wasn't worth it to keep them up.

I think this was a fishing expedition by this particular DNR agent who was hoping to uncover something big. When no "incriminating" evidence was forthcoming the subject was dropped. I've had offers from another friend to take me to the spot but we haven't been able to work out a date yet.

I also had a customer tell me they had a E. massasauga on their property that the DNR did not know about and she had no intention of telling them and I don't blame her. She showed me some pretty cool pictures and even some of babies. She said its on a back corner of the property and they usually give it a wide berth because of the snakes and only about a half a dozen close family members actually know they are there. They check it out a couple of time a year just to make sure the snakes are still there and they had seen babies in something like 4 of the past 6 years (it was about 4 years ago when I was told this and she has not been in since so I don't know the current status)

Anyway, the picture of the tetrataenia were beautiful. I would love to be able to see them in the wild (or as wild as any of their current habitat can be) I'm not sure if I would take pictures because my photography skills suck but just being able to say I've seen them would be a thrill. I do understand the laws and why they are there and the extent that officials can go to protect species but I think they go way too far sometimes. It does seem that with certain agencies, cough cough...the dnr... the concept of innocent until proven guilty is a completely foreign concept.

[ConcinusMan]

Wow, I didn't mean for my comments to cause such a stir. Or maybe I did:D

Anyway, just a few details as I was told them about the massasauga pictures in my OP. The pictures were taken as the snakes were found basking, no flipping or other manipulation of the snakes had occurred. The pictures were taken on public land. There were no distinguishing landscape feature that would enable anyone to ID the are where they were found. The pictures were posted on a personal website (which is not active any more) with only the caption E. massasauga in Southern Wisconsin The discussion with the DNR agent was through PM and email. Specific threats of arrest were not made but insinuations that arrests could be made if the animals were disturbed in any way. The DNR agent knew exactly where the pictures were taken at from the photographers very limited description to him (public land in a particular county) The DNR agent admitted that the photographer had not broken any laws but kept saying things like "If you did..." and "People might..." The photos were left up for a couple of weeks then removed, I guess they didn't so much make him take them down as they convinced him that it wasn't worth it to keep them up.

I think this was a fishing expedition by this particular DNR agent who was hoping to uncover something big. When no "incriminating" evidence was forthcoming the subject was dropped. I've had offers from another friend to take me to the spot but we haven't been able to work out a date yet.

I also had a customer tell me they had a E. massasauga on their property that the DNR did not know about and she had no intention of telling them and I don't blame her. She showed me some pretty cool pictures and even some of babies. She said its on a back corner of the property and they usually give it a wide berth because of the snakes and only about a half a dozen close family members actually know they are there. They check it out a couple of time a year just to make sure the snakes are still there and they had seen babies in something like 4 of the past 6 years (it was about 4 years ago when I was told this and she has not been in since so I don't know the current status)

Anyway, the picture of the tetrataenia were beautiful. I would love to be able to see them in the wild (or as wild as any of their current habitat can be) I'm not sure if I would take pictures because my photography skills suck but just being able to say I've seen them would be a thrill. I do understand the laws and why they are there and the extent that officials can go to protect species but I think they go way too far sometimes. It does seem that with certain agencies, cough cough...the dnr... the concept of innocent until proven guilty is a completely foreign concept.

People here are easily stirred, believe me. Especially about things they are passionate about. I've probably done far more unintentional stirring here, than intentional. You just sort of step in it.

I can tell you that photographing tetrataenia isn't easy. They are extremely flighty and will quickly disappear across water and into vegetation. Persuing them, or touching them in any way is definitely not legal. Your only option is in situ and they aren't usually very cooperative. But, that's what makes it worth the effort, and makes the photos that much more worth obtaining.

[ConcinusMan]

By the way guys, when I get to CA (pretty darn soon) there won't be any garters at all where I am. (the central valley's almond growing country) Plenty of neat lizards, rattlers, and some of the biggest gopher snakes you've ever laid eyes on. However, it's not far at all to the nearest stable population of Thamnophis gigas. It's the same spot where I saw them in the wild before. I will do my best to get permission from the farmers to go out and get some good photos of them to share. :-)

Also with just a little travel time, I can get to herp for some of California's best garter species. They're not far, they're just not in the valley (with the exception of gigas) where I'll be. Check out the weather there. I can live with that. it's a dry heat.:D

http://img35.imageshack.us/img35/8266/weatheru.jpg

[BUSHSNAKE]

Im packing my bags Richard...just give me directions, we're going herping

[RedSidedSPR]

Do you plan on keeping any of them? Or just herp?

[ConcinusMan]

I'll have to get a fishing license and then there will be a daily bag limit but of course I probably will keep some (no gigas or SF garters obviously) and use some to trade and rebuild my collection. I won't be far at all from the bay area and surrounding counties and you know there's awesome garters there.

I most definitely will have to go out (this works within blocks of where I'm living) after sundown on a hot day and go road cruising to get myself the biggest, meanest gopher snake I can find.:D I swear to God, there's 7-8 footers out there on the roads at night. They're monsters.

Herping season is actually very, very long there. You can find snakes in December.

[RedSidedSPR]

Are gigas protected?

7-8 feet? Awesome!!!

[ConcinusMan]

Gigas is critically endangered so yes, but stable thanks to cooperation from farmers in the valley. Most of the area is almond orchards, other farmland, and rice farms as far as the eye can see. Historically it was all wetland habitat for gigas.

[ConcinusMan]

Im packing my bags Richard...just give me directions, we're going herping

OK but you're staying in a hotel. :cool: There's a motel 6 within walking distance.:p

[BUSHSNAKE]

Hey Richard i got an update on the Whelling bike trail(from a friend of mine whos a former Lincoln Park Zoo Keeper, this guy knows everybody)anyways it was SHUT DOWN...PERIOD. and asked him what he thought about people trying to get pictures of Massasauga, he just gave me that looked and laughed..."yeh right!"

[ConcinusMan]

Well that's good news.

[mb90078]

I live one suburb away from Wheeling. I've actually been reading up on the massasaugas in this area quite a bit lately. Some historical documents on the internet pin down some of their exact dens with pinpoint accuracy (but notice I say historical, a lot changes in 10, 20, 30 years) in Wheeling and especially just north of Wheeling.

Anyway, I've seen very, very little evidence that they are even still around in this forest preserve, or the one North of it. Of course, that doesn't mean they are extinct from it...

Also, most people don't believe me when I tell them that a venomous snake population lives/lived in this area. You'd be surprised at the looks I get.

[ConcinusMan]

I was surprised to hear there were rattlesnakes there too. But this was just a couple of years ago. There's definitely a den there and plenty of rattlesnakes. Supposedly the last holdout in the greater Chicago area.

[BUSHSNAKE]

theyre still around ... the remaining populations are HIGHLY PROTECTED

[GarField000]

OMG, why don't I live in the US so I can observe all these snakes in the wild.

Very nice pictures ....

[mb90078]

theyre still around ... the remaining populations are HIGHLY PROTECTED

Highly protected how? I used to visit these forests all the time as a kid and never saw a park ranger once.

[ConcinusMan]

I was thinking the same thing. I think what he means is that known locations where populations or dens remain, are strictly off limits.

I tell you what, Washington State is highly protective of their zonata. Can't get anywhere near them without a ranger right up in your business. If they catch you with so much as an empty pillow case in that area, they'll slap the cuffs on you.

At the same time, if you're armed only with a camera, they'll show you right were to go for the best spots. Easier to keep an eye on you that way. LoL.

It's worked out well. It's such a small area and so disjunct from the rest of zonata's range, they could have been decimated by now by collectors if it weren't for the rangers. Believe me, they've arrested their fair share of idiots who think they can just march in there, tear shtuff up, and leave with their booty. Words out now though. You won't get away with it so people don't even try as much as they used to.