Concinnus?

[BLUESIRTALIS]

What is the deal with this. They look like concinnus to me.:confused:
http://market.kingsnake.com/camera.gif (http://market.kingsnake.com/detail.php?cat=99&de=871866)California Red-Sided Garter Snake CBB (http://market.kingsnake.com/detail.php?cat=99&de=871866)

[Didymus20X6]

He shouldn't be feeding them rosy reds. That should tell you something.

[ssssnakeluvr]

definitely concinnus.... infernalis have distinct stripes on the sides

[RedSidedSPR]

Well, sure they closely resemble them.

Good lookin' little guys though.

[snakeman]

I have fed hundreds of babies rosy reds.just cause you read it on this forum doesn't make it accurate.i would like to see one documented case where rosey reds caused death.

[RedSidedSPR]

OK.

http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/urgent-care/8883-ribbon-snake-wont-stop-rolling.html

[snakeman]

Oh, cause there is a thread about it that makes it a fact

[RedSidedSPR]

No. I'm with ya. I'm paranoid about them, and they can carry parasites, and they do have thiamnaise, but i don't know just how bad they really are... maybe as a staple.

[jitami]

I've often wondered how accurate the info on rosy reds was, too. Sly ate nothing but rosy reds for several months if not longer before I switched him to pinkies 9 years ago. At the time they were considered safe... came here a few years later and learned that they're now not considered safe. I'm sure they're still on quite a few care sheets as being acceptable, so we can't totally bash someone for feeding them.

[RedSidedSPR]

I don't doubt theres truth to it and I try not to feed them. My adult still needs them, and the thing is before I learned, he ate nothing but for 7 months. No problems... still try not to.

[d_virginiana]

I have fed hundreds of babies rosy reds.just cause you read it on this forum doesn't make it accurate.i would like to see one documented case where rosey reds caused death.

Here is a scientific study done at Cornell on the toxic effects of feeding thiaminase. The section on ruminants (livestock) deals with plants, but if you read to the bottom, there is a section dealing with a neurological disease found in mink and fox caused by high consumption of fish and shellfish. These effects are compounded in garters due to their smaller size. I don't believe everything I see on the internet either, but the dangers of thiaminase have been documented by both scientists and many experienced owners and breeders of garters.
Here's a link to the study:

Cornell University Department of Animal Science (http://www.ansci.cornell.edu/plants/toxicagents/thiaminase.html)

Regardless, it's probably a safe bet that a guy who doesn't even know what sort of snake he's selling doesn't really know what he's doing. :cool:

[RedSidedSPR]

Yeah, I try not to feed them. Too risky. I don't have much choice with my adult, but I refuse to do it with my babies, and as soon as my adult eats tilapia, minnows go away.

I'm against it, I just sometimes doubt some of the hype.

[d_virginiana]

I've often wondered how accurate the info on rosy reds was, too. Sly ate nothing but rosy reds for several months if not longer before I switched him to pinkies 9 years ago. At the time they were considered safe... came here a few years later and learned that they're now not considered safe. I'm sure they're still on quite a few care sheets as being acceptable, so we can't totally bash someone for feeding them.

From what I've read it seems like it's something that accumulates over time? idk for sure though.
Not bashing the guy for feeding them, heck I tried giving them to Houdini years ago, but he'd never take them.
But there's definitely scientific evidence out there that points to thiaminase being dangerous in all animals, not just snakes. Not trying to be mean or anything, it's just a fact.. It probably boils down to luck and the individual animal. I've read about people who fed rosy reds for three months and their snakes started to death-roll, but others have fed them for years with no issue..

[jitami]

I don't doubt the risks of thiaminase. I'm just saying that rosy reds were once considered safe and then suddenly they weren't. They were on many many garter snake care sheets as being acceptable to feed (thiaminase free) and I wouldn't be surprised if this person found one of those old care sheets & went with it.

[snakeman]

There have been no studys with garters.Even the more well known breeders use roseys to get thier garters on pinks.One even had it on his care sheet up until a year ago.To rule them out totally is stupid.Pack them with reptomin and your garter will grow like lightning and will be able to take whole pinks in no time.Sorry I hijacked the thread.I say red spot also.Although red sides do vary a lot.

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

Sorry guys, but I am with Tom on this one. I now start all of my babies with rosies and have been, for quite some time, then I switch them to pinkies/silversides/worms/whatever else. It's all a hypothesis... and for one thing I don't have access to guppies here period any more and that's saying a lot considering I order the fish for my workplace. As Tom said... If you guys had any idea how many of your biggest fellow hobbyists started their babies on minnows you'd crap. I could start dropping names right here that you all would know, but I won't. Nobody cares to mention it because... well, who would, with the way people take everything they read to such heart? It's all pure speculation seeing as no necropsy was done on the ribbon in that thread or any other. We can't just all blindly go assuming that every sick/rolling/twitching/seizuring/dying garter and ribbon snake that ever even looked sideways at a rosy red or a goldfish is dying of vitamin deficiency. In fact, without a necropsy it is plain WRONG to do so and in any other forum/community, this type of blind assumption is largely shunned, condemned even. There is enough guesswork going on in our hobby, heck look at the guy that is "fairly certain" that these are infernalis he's got. Has anybody emailed him??? I know I am...

I understand the risks and I myself promote feeding healthy sources of fishes wherever possible but the longer I have been on this site, the more "repeating" I have seen going on, people simply repeating it because they read it here on a forum and not fully understanding how the body of a snake even functions or WHY thiaminase could pose a problem. And the fact that the thiaminase content in a fish not only depends on the species, but the diet of the fish, how it was raised/lived, and where it lived. In fact, I am willing to bet if you spawned your own goldfish and fed them the proper goldfish diet (not tetrafin flakes) and cared for them well.... and you fed said fish to your garters, your snakes would be healthy. I myself, I don't use them, and never will, I don't like using live fish any longer than I need to, once they are eating frozen stuff, why would I? Especially at 10 cents a pop!

One problem for sure is the lack of any recent study, the extremely outdated list of fish and the fact that there wasn't a study on SNAKES... that list we use was for minks, or something like that. has it happened? Probably in cases where the animal has lived on NOTHING but cheap feeders for years and years. But then again, I meet people every day who have a garter or a ribbon snake, feed it nothing bot goldfish and have been, for years, and I wondered for a while, why are these snakes not dying? Then I got the chance to meet some of the snakes... as big, healthy and robust as mine or yours.... it's all very peculiar. I have had more than one snakes showing "classic signs of vitamin b1 deficiency" (a statement based off the assumptions that the other snakes that died of these symptoms died of b1 def. - something I see all too often here and elsewhere) that have never touched a rosy red or a goldfish in their life time (case in point, two similis I raised myself) There are MANY, many reasons a snake will roll and have seizures. Snakes only have a few ways to express themselves once they have fallen ill. Their primitive system can only do so much, symptom-wise. And once it goes to their nervous system in the end stages of death, seizures and rolling, heck, that's a common thing when a snake is on it's deathbed.

back to the topic of this thread... those are not infernalis and the guy needs to be informed of this. I am sending him an email, I think whoever else agrees should be too... just a polite email, to discuss why they aren't infernalis. Don't be rude, or make him feel ignorant or stupid, remember to be polite.

[kibakiba]

I don't care for live fish, but I don't think starting a snake on rosies will hurt it at all. Not one bit. Besides, I can imagine with the fact that it's easy to scent things with fish, it would be easier to get them started on something else that is thiamnaise free.

[RedSidedSPR]

I sent him a friendly email earlier. He's not buying it.

I totally agree to what you said Shannon!!

I personally don't think they're as dangerous as they say, from my experience feeding them to my adut.

They do have a proven parasite risk though, and that alone is enough toake me stay away... I feed them to my adult as it is my only choice until he finally eats fillet, but I'm 50/50 on it.

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

I don't care for live fish, but I don't think starting a snake on rosies will hurt it at all. Not one bit. Besides, I can imagine with the fact that it's easy to scent things with fish, it would be easier to get them started on something else that is thiamnaise free.

There is nothing "smellier" than rosies... they have such a strong odor. Especially to my pregnant nose... they have a distinct smell that really seems to get even the finickiest snake going... and from experience I can tell you it's not the same with guppies, even when I was able to get them. I use the rosies stuffed with reptomin (no different than gutloading the rosies with food) quite often to get babies going, and then once they start accepting other things I don't use them anymore.

[RedSidedSPR]

I emailed him earlier ,he truly believes that is an infernalis. He seems open to info, an he's not blowing me off, but he didn't buy it. Well, he's in for a friendly chat...

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

I sent him a friendly email earlier. He's not buying it.

I totally agree to what you said Shannon!!

I personally don't think they're as dangerous as they say, from my experience feeding them to my adut.

They do have a proven parasite risk though, and that alone is enough toake me stay away... I feed them to my adult as it is my only choice until he finally eats fillet, but I'm 50/50 on it.

any live fish carries a risk of parasites, but then again, so does any filet, or any raw meat what-so-ever. I switch them off live fish for this reason though, as soon as they are willing!

[RedSidedSPR]

Yeah. I agree.

[RedSidedSPR]

Pfft. Heres his reply.

"Thanks for your interest, but you must understand that the adults DO look drastically different from the babies."

[kibakiba]

Maybe it's a 3 stripe concinnus, could you show him a picture of a 3-striper?

[RedSidedSPR]

I could. Do his photos look like 3 stripers to you?

[kibakiba]

Yes. They look much like Snap did when she was a baby.
A couple are 1 stripes though, based on the picture. That is what a concinnus litter would look like.

[RedSidedSPR]

Didn't know Snap was a 3 strip, cool.

OK. After he replies I'll show him a picture... When I find one.

[kibakiba]

Yeah, I asked Richard to give me something that I could tell apart. Her stripes on the side are faint, but you can tell they're there. I've also found that a lot of 3 stripers have reduced cheek colour. My mom jokes that Ember stole all of snaps blush... :D

[RedSidedSPR]

That's cool, 3 stripes are sweet.

[d_virginiana]

I do agree somewhat with what Shannon said as well.. All of the animals included in that study had eaten *very* high thiaminase diets for years and years. The sorts of problems mentioned were the result of long term thiaminase poisoning, which is why it's totally possible for people to use rosy reds, especially with vitamin supplements. You're right that the 'OMG you're going to kill your snakes if they eat one rosy red!' is an overreaction though. Sorry if my first reply came off a bit harsh, but since there haven't been any studies done specifically on snakes showing that it's okay for them to eat high thiaminase diets for a long time, I don't think rosy reds should be recommended feeders just because I do believe it's totally possible for them to cause issues if the owner doesn't supplement or know what they're doing.

Just out of curiosity, if there haven't been any studies done on thiaminase in feeder fish and snakes, how/why was the 'no goldfish or rosy reds' thing started?

[RedSidedSPR]

My thought exactly. Only I'm a little more 50/50. Don't have a problem, but havent seen proof they're safe.

Good question.

[snakeman]

Alan's Garter Snakes - Maintenance of Garter Snakes (http://www.gartersnake.co.uk/maintenance.htm#Feeding)
I am pretty sure this all started in Europe.

[RedSidedSPR]

"mr infernalis" has been convinced!!:D

[ConcinusMan]

I have fed hundreds of babies rosy reds.just cause you read it on this forum doesn't make it accurate.i would like to see one documented case where rosey reds caused death.

As far as that goes, I have fed goldfish to garters for years and never had any issues.

[ConcinusMan]

That's cool, 3 stripes are sweet.

Laterally striped concinnus. This gene is dimorphism. There are regulars and laterally striped in the same litter. Regulars that carry the gene give birth to both types, and visa/versa. It's just a genetic quirk that concinnus' have in SW WA, extreme NW Oregon, and the WA coastline. Generally speaking, laterally striped ones tend to occur outside the Willamette Valley and tend to look more like fitchi than concinnus' but there's still ways to tell them apart. Color is different and there are other subtle clues, especially range.

First off, ember and snap as babies. I had two litters that had both types. These two could be litter mates but I actually don't know. The two litters got mixed up.

http://a.imageshack.us/img442/5114/kibaka012medium.jpg

Adult 3-striper along with big bertha. Both were found at the same location and like I said, both snakes usually have both types of babies in the same litter regardless of which type the parents are.

http://desmond.imageshack.us/Himg268/scaled.php?server=268&filename=dscn0713large.jpg&res=medium

It's interesting to note however, that both parents must carry this 3 stripe gene (even if they aren't 3 striped themselves) in order to get a mixed litter. I bred big bertha to a snake that doesn't carry this gene and got all regular babies. When she was bred to another snake that does carry the gene, but looked like her, viola, mixed litter. So I guess you could say it's recessive, but unlike albino or anery, it's very common (locally) and entire populations in certain areas carry the gene. You get about equal numbers of both types in a litter.

[RedSidedSPR]

I love concinnus.:D

[ConcinusMan]

Alan's Garter Snakes - Maintenance of Garter Snakes (http://www.gartersnake.co.uk/maintenance.htm#Feeding)
I am pretty sure this all started in Europe.

I do not think it's a coincidence that many of these symptoms are the same as mercury poisoning. Even if the fish has fairly low levels, safe enough to eat a couple of meals per month, a diet exclusively of fish would cause it to build up in the snake's system until it becomes toxic.

[Hazeldarc]

Scott F. also feeds his babies Red Rosy's too...

[ConcinusMan]

Yeah, yeah, a lot of people do it although I have no idea why. I have received several babies that were started on rosies and only ate rosies up until I got them. They didn't hesitate to take pinky parts, tilapia, silversides, worms, just about anything so I don't see why they insist on giving them rosies, or any live fish for that matter.

[RedSidedSPR]

Scott F. also feeds his babies Red Rosy's too...

Not sure about that. He says it on his site but...

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

For some reason, for those stubborn eaters, there is something about rosies that really stimulates them to eat. And I am talking about a snake that is turning other fish down..... Rosies must have this magical aroma...

[RedSidedSPR]

I know!!! The smell is so strong... it justs seems more tasty...:p