Mice & Worms or just mice?

[Philminator]

so for one of my easterns she's just a bit over 2 feet and I finally got her on fuzzy / hopper mice as an adult mouse is just too big. She ate 2 small hopper mice and 6 worms. Is this a decent meal to feed her every 7-10 days? or is the 2 hopper mice enough that i don't need to give her worms? I know some say to alternate but on other posts here I've read that worms are just a watery snack with very little substance. I just like adding worms in as it gives the snake a nice full look to it as feeding it 2-3 hoppers doesn't make the snake look full if you know what I mean. Normally my garters who only eat worms and fish eat 2-3 times a week but since this one adult is taking hoppers really well I don't want to over feed her and harm her.

[katach]

I use worms as just a between meal snack. The rodents are a good well balanced meal with all the nutrition they need. Like you said, the worms are mostly water.

[kibakiba]

With my largest snake (who is smaller than yours, by far) I give her 2-4 pinkies (we only buy pinkies) and leave it at that, but every so often, about 5 days after eating, I give her a night crawler or two as a treat. That's what she started eating when I first caught her, so it's always a big treat since she hates fish. I find variety is the best diet, so if you feed her less mice, you could add some worms in with it too.

[ssssnakeluvr]

the worms are fine. they do make quite the mess as they pass thru fast. I have several valley garters that pound worms.... boy their cages are a mess to clean!!

[kibakiba]

I don't have too much of a problem, mess wise, with worms. I feed them with pinkies usually (with the exception of adults) and their poop is relatively solid, with a bit of wateriness.

[Didymus20X6]

I read another thread on this forum that claims that worms are chock full of goodness that snakes need. Something about certain proteins and biotics that earthworms supply that fish and mice don't, that help snakes develop and remain healthy. I don't remember the thread's name, but it should be easy to find.

EDIT: Found it.

http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/husbandry/8767-dirt-dirt.html

[RedSidedSPR]

If not for any other reason, I'd do it for variety. I don't think garters should live off 1 food item.

I dont think it's just a watery snack. It has plenty of substance, just not a good only-diet-food item. At all.

[drache]

I do believe that worms are high in minerals that may support bone formation
some day I'll have to read up on the facts
regardless - I am not fond of feeding worms, and I am quite relieved that less than a third of my adult garters care for them at all, and only a couple are enthusiastic about them

[d_virginiana]

I'd keep the worms in there. That sort of quickly digested food is more a part of the snake's natural diet than things like mice. I usually feed my adult several nightcrawlers, part of a pinky (the young one eats the legs and liver, he gets the rest) and maybe a fish every three days or so. The poo is a bit messier and you have to feed them more often, but I think he's more active with this diet than when I give him large rodent-only meals. Nothing wrong with doing just rodents though.

[Mommy2many]

My snakes all take mice, salmon, silversides, live fish and worms.
I alternate bewteen all food items, depending on funds availability and preferences at the time. My snakes think (at least I think) that worms are their mac 'n cheese dinner. Comfort food. Not extremely nutritious or filling but satisfying for the moment. It is a distraction/diversion until the more substantial stuff is presented. All are good and usually appreciated.

[annulataarethebest]

I say just mice.

[kibakiba]

Why? There are many benefits to a varied diet. That's like saying humans can live off one thing too. I understand humans and snakes are different, but, there are snakes that live solely off of night crawlers. Night crawlers may be mostly water, but a lot of garters thrive on them. A lot of garters also thrive on just live fish in the wild. So, why not use what they thrive on as an advantage and feed them a variety of food?

All of my snakes have grown faster and thrived on the varied diet, than the ones who ate mostly pinkies.

[Didymus20X6]

Especially when, as posted above, there are a multitude of benefits from a healthy percentage of nightcrawlers in the diet.

Mine don't even eat mice.

[kibakiba]

Mine all love mice (exception of Hades) but, I only feed mice once or twice a month to conserve them and save money. Everyone gets some pinky parts mixed in with the food, though, just not always whole pinkies.

[guidofatherof5]

I feed 70% night crawlers and have always believed there is more to them then is realized. My wild population probably eats a higher percentage of worms and appear to be very healthy.
I will be changing to a 50-50 worm/mice diet in the near future.

[katach]

My little ones enjoy the occasional chunk of salmon too. I too like the varied diet. It's especially helpful when your pet store has supplier issues and takes 2 weeks to get your pinkie order in....

[kibakiba]

So do mine. I only use it as a treat.

[xStatic]

I have to admit I'm new to garter snakes and my experience has been with rodent eating snakes only.. has anyone had problems with calcium deficiency in garters that are eating mostly eartworms or earthworms and pinkies only? I've read somewhere that non rodent feeders need to have calcium supplimented, but this seemed like it may not be true as I doubt many of the wild garters around her could manage to get down any rodent, and stumbling across a nest of small pinkies is quite rare I'm sure...

I've been planning on raising my garter on mice only.. and since pinkies have cartilage skeletons and not completely formed bones, moving up to fuzzies and small mice to keep calcium levels up

I have only just got her and haven't attempted to feed yet, but she is currently feeding well on pinky parts (info from the breeder). I was scared to let her feed on anything else as I didn't want her to start preferring worms of fish over mice.

Does anyone raise garters stricktly on mice? It seems like this diet, while simple, can supply all the nutrients needed to keep a snake healthy, with less frequent feedings

[kibakiba]

No. I've never really supplemented the earthworms I give my snakes. Maybe once every month or two. It's not really needed IMO, because the pinkies give them that.

I used to give Mama and Snakey nothing but pinkies. Absolutely no worms or fish. They got overweight really fast. There was nothing wrong with their lamp, and I'd wait about a week an a half before feeding them another when I started to notice how overweight they had gotten. They aren't like that anymore, now that I feed a variety.

[Jeff B]

I've been feeding mice and a nightcrawler inbetween and extending time to 10-14 days between mice as I believe some of my snake have become big boned (fat) so they are on a maintenance diet. I do agree with Don, if you feed only worms there is a lot of dirty black poop to clean up compaired to rodents. I started all my babies this year on worms instead of fish, and now have them eating cut worms and pinkies mixed, and while the grown rate is the same maybe better there is a lot more mess to clean up.

[RedSidedSPR]

I don't think messiness is a good enough reason to feed any different. That's just part of maintenance.

[kibakiba]

Its all a part of keeping an animal, no matter what you have, they poop. Watery poop from worms is a hell of a lot better than mini macaw poop. He poops every 30 minutes! Or so it seems.. Maybe he just poops when I walk by...

[RedSidedSPR]

Mine dries up real quick under the heat, and the babies are so small it's just like white-out on that one peice of substrate... not a problem for me, but if it was, wouldn't make me feed less worms.

[Didymus20X6]

I have to agree with these guys: our priority should be what's more beneficial to the health of the animal, not what's the easiest or messiest to clean up. To that end, I would think a balanced diet, rather than an exclusive one, would be more beneficial to the snakes.

[charles parenteau]

I think its better to mixt food....not only feed with rodent eastern garter snake usually don't eat rodent in the wild I don't mean they never do it but they don't feed exclusively on it!!FIsh,worms,rodents,frog if you can!!Feeding your garter with rodent its only good for the owner I think it's easy to get food to clean and they grow fast....I feed my snake only with their natural food and I know it's a mess when I clean the cage....I think it's better to feed only with worm than feed only with rodent.

[Mrs N1ntndo]

No. I've never really supplemented the earthworms I give my snakes. Maybe once every month or two. It's not really needed IMO, because the pinkies give them that.

I used to give Mama and Snakey nothing but pinkies. Absolutely no worms or fish. They got overweight really fast. There was nothing wrong with their lamp, and I'd wait about a week an a half before feeding them another when I started to notice how overweight they had gotten. They aren't like that anymore, now that I feed a variety.

So I have a question for you then . I have been only feeding my garters fat earthworms and I have never had a problem but I am going to get pinkies to give them also but I dont know how to store them or how long they can stay in the freezer. I have just Pheobe and 7 babies now so theres not many but sence i have the money now I would like to get enough to last a while. I know they will evenully be eating more but I also know there not very big to have huge huge appitites yet. Also if I feed them all pinkies and worms how often should I feed them. also with the babies if it is just worms how often as well. I just want to make sure that I do everything I can do right so I dont screw it up.

[Didymus20X6]

In theory, they should be able to stay in the freezer indefinitely.

For little snakes, they can be cut up into pieces to fit their little mouths easier, although snakes are capable of eating things larger than their heads.

Just make sure the pinkies are completely thawed before serving them. Do that by soaking them in warm water until they no longer feel frozen in the middle.

[Mrs N1ntndo]

So basically youre saying I am able to put some pinkies in a freezer proof type dish and keep them in there as long as needed ? so when do I cut them? before thawed or after? also what temp of water should I use and what is the estmate time for pinkies to thaw. Ive got tiny babies and I want to make sure cause its the first babies that Im raising . There all doing great now . Im jusg giving worms to all my garters and I havent given anyhting else but there are like 3-4 babies I personally haven seen eat yet so I dont know if they are eating and either I dont see it or they arent eating at all.like Im not sure that if there is one or whatever that might just not like the worms I have a cpl skinny ones but I dont know if they theyve eating but they all have been very active with no problems. I just wanna make sure.

[kibakiba]

I cut pinkies while their frozen. Keep them in a freezer safe bag.

[Didymus20X6]

In theory, you could cut them while still frozen. It might be a bit less messy, provided you've got a good knife that can hack it, so to speak. Otherwise, thawing them first will work just fine.

Warm tap water will be fine, and the time will depend on the amount of water and the temperature. Five minutes should be fine; just feel their bellies to make sure they are thawed.

More than that, I can't help you. I've tried them, but haven't had any success in getting my snakes to take to pinkies, but I'd wager it's because they are wild-caught. Scarlett is still small and very skittish, and Little Dude is spoiled on tilapia.

[Mrs N1ntndo]

SO I could freeze them and then take them and cut them up and freeze them again in freezer baggies. I will be getting them first so thats why I said it that way. I will probly try to give Pheobe 1 or 2 of the pinkies live before hand and see what she does. I have never given her one and I have also never seen 1 eat it in person only on pics . not even on Video. Does anyone have it taped so we can see it?

[ConcinusMan]

just not a good only-diet-food item. At all.

Don't tell the northwestern garters that. They don't know it, and can live on them their entire lives without any problems.

[RedSidedSPR]

Yeah.... I think different about worms now...

It CAN be, just better with some other stuff thrown in.

[kibakiba]

Variety is always a plus ;)

[ConcinusMan]

Cutting pinkies while they're still frozen solid is the only way to go. Otherwise they're like trying to cut bags of fairly tough skin filled with dang near liquid guts. It just doesn't work so well.

While frozen, I cut the hind legs off, being sure to get plenty of meat by cutting into the body a bit. Makes nice little meaty drumsticks. I do the same in the front. If you need very tiny bits you can also cut wedges out of the back and hip area. Then I usually feed what's left to larger snakes, in one piece. Once it's all cut (you have to be fast because they thaw quick) then you thaw the pieces. If you do this in a bag, it holds the juices and you can use it as gravy for chopped worms or fish.

As far as worms or tilapia goes, it's much easier to cut those thawed (worms live) with a pair of sharp scissors, then trying to use a knife.

[kibakiba]

I cut my fish while its frozen with a paring knife. It works perfectly.

[RedSidedSPR]

I use scissors. More control.:rolleyes:

[xStatic]

Just thought I should mention.. it's not emtirely safe to keep frozen mice in the freezer for too long. If you seel them in an airtight vaccum bag, they can remain in the freezer up to a year. If they are only in a plastic baggy or caontainer than they should be used within 6 months then discareded. If you leave them longer than 6 months the rate of decompasition has reached a point where it is no longer safe for consumption. A normal freezer isn't cold enough to prevent all badcteria growth and you would be taking a chance with the snakes healthy to feed a frozen pinky older than 6 months.

Also, for cutting mice I almost always cute and/or slit all my frozen mice from pinkies to large adults to either make a meal small enough to be swallowed, or to aid in digestion. I use a small sharpish knife to cut them, but they generally snap apart pretty easy when they're frozen anyway