Some people...

[Lee]

While coming home today I turned a block away from my house not noticing a thing. Later I am told that there is a large yellow snake on the corner of the street. I immediatly go to investigate to find a dead 2ft bullsnake. This is the first non garter I've seen, such a shame it was dead, it was obviously run over or beaten on the head.. Why are people so incosiderate towards life? I was too late, by a mere 30 mins... :*(
/sad

[KITKAT]

I have been out field herping a bit this spring, now that Ohio finally has steady temps in the 70's and low 80's during most days.

I have found NOTHING.

Then about a week ago, after three hours wandering around in a wetlands mitigation in a fruitless search for anything herp, I came home to find a HUGE eastern, squashed almost beyond recognition, lying on the road about a half mile before my driveway.

DANG IT DANG IT!!!!!!!!!!!:mad:

[drache]

a few days ago Mikhaila came home, very upset
a friend brought back slides from a China trip
there was one of snakes being skinned and Mikhaila thought she heard someone say that the were being skinned alive
please, someone tell me, they're not skinning snakes alive in China

I've been reading her stortes from "The Hopes of Snakes"
that day, unfortunately, we got to a segment about some awful things people had done to snakes in her area
I had to do some super quick, on-the-spot editing to make it suitable for bed time

also: I had a hard time writing this post, because many of the words that came naturally on this subject are unsuitable, even when It's not bed time

[Snaky]

I can't say if they are being skinned alive. But in China people have a different perception on animals. Almost everything that is eatable can be bought, cooked and eaten. They sell the rarest animals on their markets, picked directly from nature to go into the cooking pan. It's sad to hear, but part of their culture.

For the rest, I think most of it is already said here:
http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/garter-snake-lounge/893-why.html

[adamanteus]

Rhea, I'm afraid it's true, they do skin snakes alive in many places in the Far East. If the snake is alive, it "assists" the process, as it would while sloughing, in it's efforts to get away. They also remove the gall bladder from living snakes.

Literally millions of snakes are killed every year, because of their ability to cure impotence and generally rejuvenate. Yeah, right. It's a disgusting trade, and one which I have tried to bring to the attention of organisations such as WWF and IFAW many times over the years. Unfortunately snakes just aren't cuddly enough to be championed by these people. Don't even get me started on this!

[drache]

while I didn't know about the snakes specifically, I do know about their disregard for animals in general
some of us in the international Chinese medicine community are actively working to get substances derived from certain animals banned
many, such as bear gallbladder and tiger bone have already been banned
yet of course there is a thriving undergrounds market, particularly for substances reputed to enhance men's potency
I wonder of course
in the old days, the guy probably had to kill the bear or tiger himself, which automatically made him a man worthy of sexual attention
I wonder whether that was really the thing
I doubt anyone has researched these particular substances to see whether and what part of them actually works, and works better than other bones or gallbladders
the herbal books give substitutes, but tiger and bear just have that manly sound to the
sometimes I wonder whether I'm just a really angry person under all that civilized veneer, because there are so many things that can get me so very angry

[cheryl]

The other thing that frightens me about this...the steps between squishing a bug, deliberately mowing down a snake, purposely running over a 'possum etc. seem to get smaller to people as they go. I mean, how can anyone not understand that it is absolutely unforgivable to put any living thing in agony? Where do these people stop? History shows us that people who kill people frequently started out abusing other animals. Been a while since I was a student. Do they teach kids about animals at all? Field trips to the petting zoos, assemblies featuring people who care for the less 'cute' species? Kids, whether or not they have been taught to fear animals, at least have a healthy curiosity about things that might make them more likely to adapt.
On the positive side, my husband has encountered several of my snakes lately, and has been able to control his response. Even to the one that he swears is 4' long!

[garterman07]

i periodically bring "less cute species" to the elementary school namly tarantuals and other arachnids., some times even scorpions if i can get a temporary hold of one. i enjoy informing the little kids of what to do and what not do when encountering these animals

[mikm]

I think at it's root, it's a blatant disregard for 'life' and/or the perception that humans are a 'superior' life form and all other forms of life inhabit this planet for our 'use'. There is no value placed on 'life'. I question the value of one's own life if you are so easily able to snuff out anothers with no regard for it's pain.

:( :( :(

[Serpentine99]

I question the value of one's own life if you are so easily able to snuff out anothers with no regard for it's pain.

That's when it comes down to ethics. If people don't value other lives then they're making 0 or worse contributions to helping the earth.:(

[Stefan-A]

I guess you could call me a moral relativist. I don't have much of a reason to judge their actions, even if I myself wouldn't act the same way towards animals.


I question the value of one's own life if you are so easily able to snuff out anothers with no regard for it's pain.
I don't see the connection. Living organisms in general show absolutely no regard for other organisms' pain.

[garterman07]

yeah but other organisms that don't have a brain as developed as ours only see other ogranisms as food. humans are the only animals that kill for the sake of it, or kill just to inflict pain, other animals kill other animals for food, shelters, protection, a place to lay their eggs, offerings in a mating ritual. but it is only humans that have the little disregard for others well being. and because of that in another year i am going to iraq to help stop people from trying to genocide other people.

[adamanteus]

Living organisms in general show absolutely no regard for other organisms' pain.

While that is undoubtedly true Stefan, I like to think that we are removed from other species in so far as we have an understanding of that pain and can see right from wrong in our own actions. What sets us apart is that we have (or should have) a conscience. And as someone else already stated, only humans kill for pleasure. I think our species is basically flawed.

[Stefan-A]

I think you both might be wrong. ;) I have more questions than answers, I'm afraid.

Our brain is more developed, but is it significantly more developed and is that difference even relevant? We can observe other species and judge their mental abilities, but who judges ours? Again, it's a matter of perspective, but all of our actions stem from our own instincts. Our tendency to kill "for fun" or to inflict pain comes from some psychological need, that is as convincing as any hunger or need to reproduce. Even the question if we even have free will comes into the picture if you want to judge our actions.

Dogs kill for fun. Cats kill for fun. Even dolphins, supposedly the second or third most intelligent animals, kill for fun. I don't think our species does anything that other species don't, I just think that we are slightly more efficient. In fact, the closer we come to our own species, the more of our own nastiest tendencies we see.

The thought that our species is flawed is not something I can agree with, either.

[adamanteus]

I can't agree with any of that Stefan. I feel no "convincing psychological need" to kill for pleasure.

Dogs and cats don't kill for fun. They kill through instinct, they are driven by that instinct to take food when they can, because in the wild they would never be sure of when their next meal might be. We keep them well fed as pets, but their instinct to hunt remains in tact. But it is an instinct to hunt, not to kill for pleasure. They lack the ability to reason that their next meal will be in a bowl on the kitchen floor at a given time. They kill because they believe they must. We do not lack this reason, we understand and yet we still kill, even species which are not a prey animal for us.

[garterman07]

i agree with we can see the difference between right and wrong. but the fact that we still kill for pleasure is still there, some people are just sick. but animals killing other animals thats not just senseless, when another kills another in the animal kingdom we can't judge what they did cause we're not in their mind, you see a great white tear apart a seal you might say wow that shark must be hungry while others will say it just kills for the sake of it. how can you besure your not that shark. but more than likely an animal will eat or try and get food when the option presents its self.

[adamanteus]

Chris, everything you just said...I agree with completely.

[Stefan-A]

Sorry for splitting your post like this, hope you don't think I'm treating the parts out of context.


I can't agree with any of that Stefan. I feel no "convincing psychological need" to kill for pleasure.
You don't, other people do. You can't assume that everybody functions the same way.

Compulsive needs are compulsive needs. They aren't truly controllable even in our own case. If we are supposed to assume that we aren't superior, then we need assume that our ability to control ourselves might not be either.


Dogs and cats don't kill for fun. They kill through instinct, they are driven by that instinct to take food when they can, because in the wild they would never be sure of when their next meal might be.Eating meat because you like the taste, is killing for fun, strictly speaking. Like I said, we too are killing out of instinct and like any animal with the opportunity, we kill more than necessary. What can't be directly justified by survival or reproduction, we simply write off as "fun". "Fun" is a blanket term that covers a lot of needs.


We keep them well fed as pets, but their instinct to hunt remains in tact. But it is an instinct to hunt, not to kill for pleasure. They lack the ability to reason that their next meal will be in a bowl on the kitchen floor at a given time.Killing to satisfy a need (any need) is an instinct.


They kill because they believe they must. We do not lack this reason, we understand and yet we still kill, even species which are not a prey animal for us.How is that different from people killing because they believe ("feel" might be more appropriate in both cases) they must? What we feel ourselves might not apply to all members of our species. The "I can, why can't everybody else?" line of reasoning doesn't apply.

All I'm saying is that the issue is much more complex than you seem to think.

[drache]

it's an issue of huge complexity
I'd just like to add that just because one has consciousness, it does not necessarily mean one can always govern ones actions
there is fascinating research showing that even slime molds have decision making ability
we don't know what they base their decisions on - supposedly mostly food needs
there are many humans that base their decisions on primitive instincts without any awareness
and there are those of us, who, through practice have sharpened their awareness sufficiently to understand that control is just a thin veneer
any time something can alter our perception to the extend, that we base our decisions on erroneous info
this happens in small ways most of the time, but throw in a few oddballs in terms of upbringing, traumatic events, or genetics and it can show up in bigger ways
I doubt that generally animals kill "for fun"
I believe that that is learned behavior and often it is human's idea of fun
we've trained them to kill
of course there is no reason either to suppose that animals are always "sane"
we've all seen animals who for reasons of upbringing, traumatic events, or genetics are not quite right, or worse
we all live in this world

[mikm]

Hello Stefan ... I agree this topic can be controversial as there is much too it. I just read an article on brain mapping experiments being conducted to determine the source of 'free will'. My statement quoted below came fresh after reading an article where two young boys (brothers) I believe tortured and killed a puppy. Perhaps in the grand scheme of things I am comparing apples to oranges so to speak.

Originally Posted by mikm http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/images/green/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/general-talk/904-some-people-post11696.html#post11696)
I question the value of one's own life if you are so easily able to snuff out anothers with no regard for it's pain.

enjoy your day ...
marian

[GartersRock]

People running over snakes/killing snakes drives me nuts!!! :eek: :mad: I search so long and hard and these people always run across them and kill them. Why them and not me?? :confused:

[adamanteus]

I know! Frustrating, isn't it? Last summer I spent three days searching in the south of England for Vipera berus, and found nothing. On my last day a drunken guy who had heard about my search brought me a young female which he had just found and beaten to death with a stick!

[garterman07]

thats really sad. i hate people that don't know how to handle a situation and have to resort to violence.

[adamanteus]

I had to try to explain to this guy that the bloodied and beaten carcass he brought me was of no use to me. I think he was hoping I was going to buy it!

[garterman07]

wow...i woulda been so ticked at that guy, its like when i was in mexico they have red kneed tarantulas, very beautiful species of arachnid, i saw one and was going to go pick it up to take home cause thats the main reason i was there, to test out my spanish and get a red knee. well any ways this lady came out with a broom shouting "don't touch that nasty thing!!!!" then beat it to death with a broom and obviously proud of her self. i was like lady!!! what the hell!!! i just about had a stroke.

[abcat1993]

It always pisses me off when I try to kill something, because I always realize later that I hate it when other people try to kill snakes and frogs and other things I like. For example, while I was hunting we shot birds for fun, not to eat or to put on the wall, and then they mentioned killing toads just because they were annoying them. They said they shot them up to 6 times before they died, but then I realized that I had just done the same exact thing.
Just shows how stupid some people can be.

[garterman07]

what kind of toads are those...or atleast what did you shoot them with? sheesh even with a 22. those toads shoulda been done. but its all one cycle and no ones perfect theres always going to be that one thing that anoys some one or hat one thing that anoys you, or you do something that anoys some one else and vice versa, its jsut what makes us human.

[Cazador]

Matt,

I admit that I was a bit disturbed at the thought of shooting birds for fun, but I know a lot of hunters have done so when they were younger. I'm glad you're starting to think more deeply about such things, and I think you're on the right path toward developing deeper values and respect for the lives you choose (and don't choose) to take. Cheers,

Rick

[drache]

for fun, hm
aren't there many other things one can shoot for fun - like what do you call those little clay plates they toss up with some kind of catapult thingy? Those move.
I guess birds are cheaper
but then one could rig one's own catapult thingy and shoot up pretty much anything with enough weight to fly

when I was a kid you could get money for shooting crows (our mayor was a farmer), so you could have "fun" with a purpose
other than that I'm really fond of eating certain birds (never tried crow)

I grew up in a hunting household, with the idea that one never points a gun or rifle, loaded or not, at any living being in fun
we were taught to take care of them and take them very seriously
I understand that he my father was extreme in his attitude
he did teach me a lot
I hope I can do as good a job with my daughter

[garterman07]

clay pigeons....those are really cheap you get a box of 100 for about 10 bucks...its called trap and skeet shooting...i love that i shoot in competitons with an h&r 12g single shot. but its alot cleaner to shoot clay pigeons per say than the actual thing.

[Stefan-A]

A lot of people use them for recreational shooting with anything from shotguns to handguns to rifles, but I never liked clay pigeons. It's still too much to clean up afterwards. After a good day of shooting, the landscape's littered with brightly colored pieces. I prefer paper or metal targets.

[drache]

A lot of people use them for recreational shooting with anything from shotguns to handguns to rifles, but I never liked clay pigeons. It's still too much to clean up afterwards. After a good day of shooting, the landscape's littered with brightly colored pieces.

I didn't know that they come in colours now
it's been a long time . . .
the ones my family used were plain clay, and since this was usually done up in the woods, the stuff pretty much biodegraded back into the soil in a year or two, which in our region had a high content of clay anyway

[Stefan-A]

The ones they sell here are bright orange, but completely biodegradable. It's more of an aesthetics issue.

[abcat1993]

I was shooting them while we threw them out on a frozen lake over the winter, so I hope they biodegraded already or I might have some painful feet.

[drache]

why would they make them bright orange?
that's not generally a common bird colour
I'm puzzled
wouldn't it be better for practice (more challenging) not to make them more visible?
I guess they do that for the poor fools wandering into your range, but I'm not clear how you would duck a clay pigeon, even if it was brightly coloured. From the way they traject I would think they'd never come from where you can see them unless you happen to look up. So the bright colouring is only useful to bird watchers.
What's wrong with me, that I always want to find reasonable explanations for everything?

[Stefan-A]

why would they make them bright orange?
that's not generally a common bird colour
To make them easier for the shooter to see and to make hits easier to spot and it's not a common bird shape either. ;)


I'm puzzled
wouldn't it be better for practice (more challenging) not to make them more visible?
No, because the point is to practice your shooting technique.

[drache]

To make them easier for the shooter to see and to make hits easier to spot and it's not a common bird shape either. ;)


No, because the point is to practice your shooting technique.


of course
I missed that point
perhaps because I too am appalled at the visual impact and don't want there to be a good reason for it
my first though after reading your post was:
the colour can hardly make that much difference when seen against the sky
oh well
it is what it is

[darcy]

we've had a bunch out on the roads right now.... Mostly garters and bull snakes, who I try to urge them from sunning themselves where they are likely to be hurt, seems I've removed someone from the road everyday this week! Last Labor Day I was going to work at the local National Park and saw a snake in the road, thinking it was a bull snake who love to sun themselves on the roads in the fall around here, I stopped to shoo her off the road, there was tons of traffic and there I am pointing to the snake on the road so people wouldn't hit it. Finally I got a traffic free moment and noticed it was a rattlesnake..... Let's just say I kept my distance, but I did my best to scare her off the road from a distance anyway.

I come from a hunting family, and I choose not to hunt, I tell my son that if he wants to hunt that it is okay, he just better make full use of the animal he kills. I know some people enjoy killing other things but that's not my thing, and not the thing I hope to impart to my child.

I try to teach my son the value of all creatures big and small, and I try to learn all I can about the creatures I fear the most so that I may learn to appreciate rather than fear them.