Orange Phase Eastern Garter. Is it a dominant gene?

[Philminator]

Hey I have an orange phase eastern garter and I'm wondering when her babies are born I think most will look yellow as Shannon stated in one post I believe but is the gene recessive? dominant? in other words I wonder what % of her babies will end up being orange as they get older as I highly doubt the father was an orange phase. Just the chances of that would be slim as of 100's of garter snakes if not 1000's of them I've seen in my life and I have only ever come across 1 orange phase eastern. Secondly are they rare? and if you bred some of the brighter orange babies together as adults is that how you could eventually get deeper orange or red ?

[charles parenteau]

If your adult female have orange on her probably this snake was born normal and over the years the orange appear you need to keep her babies for few shed to see which one have orange on it sometime orange appear over the seconds years ....the one you should keep are the one that have orange at there second shed those will be very nice as adult.....If you breed 2 orange eastern together as i did few years ago you will have high orange flash babies and this is so nice ....

I caught 2 female last week with a little bit of orange to see what there babies will look like one female had her babies yesterday and at first sight all normal i will keep the babies and mom for few week before releasing and over this period i will have a better idea of what the babies will look like....If you had found and orange garter at one site you should expect red garter snake too you need to spend a lot of time herping in different location to find red one!!=)

[Philminator]

If your adult female have orange on her probably this snake was born normal and over the years the orange appear you need to keep her babies for few shed to see which one have orange on it sometime orange appear over the seconds years ....the one you should keep are the one that have orange at there second shed those will be very nice as adult.....If you breed 2 orange eastern together as i did few years ago you will have high orange flash babies and this is so nice ....

I caught 2 female last week with a little bit of orange to see what there babies will look like one female had her babies yesterday and at first sight all normal i will keep the babies and mom for few week before releasing and over this period i will have a better idea of what the babies will look like....If you had found and orange garter at one site you should expect red garter snake too you need to spend a lot of time herping in different location to find red one!!=)

yeah this place I found the orange at was ridiculous, I have never seen so many garters in my life, but time is ticking now as a lot of females are giving birth now :( well that's good news then that it is in fact possible for babies after their second shed to be orange already. Does that include the first shed when they are born right away? I keep herping as much as I can but I'm also waiting to see what comes of your WC flame that is gravid :D

[ConcinusMan]

Not locally rare. In other words, in certain locations in Canada they are common. Same goes for wild flames, or at least, the color phase that flames were captive developed from.

I think the same thing that applies to flames will apply to your orange eastern. It's polymorphism. The shade and intensity of the orange will always vary, just as the intensity, distribution, and shade of red varies with flames. You really have to raise them up to adults to know which ones are going to color up.

One can artificially select for color. That is where the reddest, most colorful flames come from. Years of selective breeding over generations, but the original pairs were Canadian WC.

[Philminator]

Not locally rare. In other words, in certain locations in Canada they are common. Same goes for wild flames, or at least, the color phase that flames were captive developed from.

Oh ok, thanks for the info. I guess they are just not locally common in my specific city then. Charles in only a few hours away from me and he sees wild flames! I need to take a trip out his way soon :D

[ConcinusMan]

If I recall, he's not the only Canadian member that lives where most of the snakes are very red flames but we haven't heard from the other guy in a very long time. Anyway, to answer your question, it's not a dominant gene. It's polymorphism. It will vary in a single litter or population. You can line breed over generations to select for the orange color though, just as nature selects for color sometimes if there is a local advantage to certain colors.

[Philminator]

If I recall, he's not the only Canadian member that lives where most of the snakes are very red flames but we haven't heard from the other guy in a very long time. Anyway, to answer your question, it's not a dominant gene. It's polymorphism. It will vary in a single litter or population. You can line breed over generations to select for the orange color though, just as nature selects for color sometimes if there is a local advantage to certain colors.
I will google polymorphism as I'm not entirely sure what that means. I'm glad that you can line breed to select the orange though :) he's probably not the only one as you said but he's the only one I've heard of and he's only a few hours away from me.

[ConcinusMan]

Basically it means you're going to see color variations within a population, or even within a single litter. The orange likely isn't the result single allele (gene) and therefore is neither dominant, codominant, or recessive. Those terms are for when a certain color or trait is the result of a single point gene. (allele)

Polymorphism: The Northwestern Gartersnake (Thamnophis ordinoides) - Diamondback Trading Cards (http://www.diamondbacktradingcards.com/thamnophis-ordinoides)

I guess what I'm trying to say is that you can breed your orange snakes but that doesn't mean the orange will be fully expressed outwardly in all the offspring. Inheritance will vary just as it does with flames.

[charles parenteau]

My wild female is very late ,it's been since mid march since she was with the male!!Wild snake are giving birth right now....my female is one month late!!!something is going on!!She is very big!!!???

[RedSidedSPR]

Maybe she's just saving her energy for the biggest litter in history:p

[Philminator]

Basically it means you're going to see color variations within a population, or even within a single litter. The orange likely isn't the result single allele (gene) and therefore is neither dominant, codominant, or recessive. Those terms are for when a certain color or trait is the result of a single point gene. (allele)

Polymorphism: The Northwestern Gartersnake (Thamnophis ordinoides) - Diamondback Trading Cards (http://www.diamondbacktradingcards.com/thamnophis-ordinoides)
thanks your explanation was easier to understand than the wiki one lol

[Philminator]

My wild female is very late ,it's been since mid march since she was with the male!!Wild snake are giving birth right now....my female is one month late!!!something is going on!!She is very big!!!???

I'm excited for you :) It will happen soon 3 of my 4 garters have given birth within a day of each other. My orange is my last one left and she's the biggest of them all. I'm no expert but I'm sure she's ok.

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

It actually totally depends on what kind of orange we are talking about. If we are talking about the brilliant flaming orange that easterns can have on the sides of their necks that fades as you go down the snake, then that would be q kind o polygenic thing that will just appear randomly on some or all off the babies. It intensifies as they grow but is often apparent that they have some even when they are newborns taking their first meal, when their neck gets stretched out you can see it.

If we are talking about "flame" orange where there is either an orange stripe running down the body and belly, or the entire lower half of the snake is orange, that will also show itself in the first generation but it's not always apparent right at birth. In red flames you can usually spot those at birth, but the orange ones usually take time to grow into their orange like Charles said. It's not unheard of to find orange-flame-types, not as hard as Ito s to find red ones. Either way, the gene is definitely not recessive meaning there is no such thing as het for flame, and I would not consider it codominant either because when you breed a flame to a normal you get a whole range of color, from a couple that are amazing to some that have only hints of red or orange... This points to red and orange easterns being polygenic (meaning a couple different traits will influence the snakes color, which ends up giving you more randomized and many different "grades" of results) as opposed to being a single point mutation.

[Philminator]

It actually totally depends on what kind of orange we are talking about.

I'll have to get you a picture when I can but pretend it's a yellow stripped garter snake common eastern and everywhere on the snake where it would be yellow it's orange except for the top stripe which seems to be more of a yellow but the face, sides ect from head to toe is orange.

[Philminator]

Here's a few pics of her, she doesn't look orange but believe me when I tell you in person and next to my other easterns she's very orange. My camera is making me look like a liar lol I almost took pics of my other yellow ones so you could see the difference.

PS view below one post to see a much more accurate picture of her colour

[ConcinusMan]

Nice looking snake

[Philminator]

Nice looking snake
Thanks I fixed the picture so that it's more accurate to how it looks in person. Here it is because those other ones posted look nothing like an orange snake.

[Mrs N1ntndo]

I dont know much about Garters but I know more now then a few weeks ago thanks to everyone on here . I dont know what the phases thing means that everyone talks about...sorry. But I do know this, Pheobe is an eastern garter (pic link in Sig) but she had orange/red on her side and I say it that way cause it depends on how shes turned or whatever to make it look orange or red. But anyway she had 23 babies and some where different shades of tan and some looked just like Pheobe except there markings stand out more. They have only shed once and that was the one right after birth. But you can almost see a little differnce in them all. some of the baby pics are in the link also .

[Philminator]

I dont know much about Garters but I know more now then a few weeks ago thanks to everyone on here . I dont know what the phases thing means that everyone talks about...sorry. But I do know this, Pheobe is an eastern garter (pic link in Sig) but she had orange/red on her side and I say it that way cause it depends on how shes turned or whatever to make it look orange or red. But anyway she had 23 babies and some where different shades of tan and some looked just like Pheobe except there markings stand out more. They have only shed once and that was the one right after birth. But you can almost see a little differnce in them all. some of the baby pics are in the link also .

I see your Phoebe but no babies :( have any pics of them

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

That type of orange is the second type I was talking about, where the actualy body is colored orange. very cool, the babies are probably going to come out looking normal, hang onto those suckers though because some will probably change!

[Mrs N1ntndo]

Ok I was writing when you put that pic up. WOW she looks soooo diferent then Pheobe. But the answer might help but seeing that they look way different I dont know. sorry . But you do have a beautiful snake.

[ConcinusMan]

Here's a few pics of her, she doesn't look orange but believe me when I tell you in person and next to my other easterns she's very orange. My camera is making me look like a liar lol I almost took pics of my other yellow ones so you could see the difference.

PS view below one post to see a much more accurate picture of her colour

I would say that's a normal eastern and what I said about the color would apply. Shannon was talking specifically about flames and that is not polygenic but does some variance in shade and intensity. Like she was saying, it depends on what is causing the color. In your case, the orange snake is just a normal and the color is the result of polymorphism. He could have come from a litter that produced snakes that were variable in color and pattern. He just happened to come out orange as he matured. Other siblings of his might have turned out to look more typical of what you find in the area.

[Philminator]

I would say that's a normal eastern and what I said about the color would apply. Shannon was talking specifically about flames and that is not polygenic but does some variance in shade and intensity. Like she was saying, it depends on what is causing the color. In your case, the orange snake is just a normal and the color is the result of polymorphism. He could have come from a litter that produced snakes that were variable in color and pattern. He just happened to come out orange.

ok great and what you mentioned earlier still applies I assume where by if I keep the brightest orange of the babies and if they bred later they could end up having brighter orange.

[ConcinusMan]

You could line breed for orange, yes. Or outcross with unreleated orange snakes and select the orangest offspring and use those for the next generation, and so on...

This is how the deep, intense red, high-end flames were created.

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

I would say that's a normal eastern and what I said about the color would apply. Shannon was talking specifically about flames and that is definitely not polymorphism responsible for their color.

no, i was talking about flames AND flame-type-oranges, the orange easterns that have orange running the entire length of their body, and most of them also have orange on both sides of their belly. I can see that the photos are skewed a bit, colorwise, fading out her color but she does look like one of those classic orange canadians, beautiful snakes! and Flame is a polygenic effect, it's not simply on and off, you get NICE flames, then you get some that are in between, then some that are barely red or orange at all... and then of course the only way to breed really nice flames is selectively, by selecting individuals with the nicest red or orange pigment.

[Philminator]

This is how the deep, intense red, high-end flames were created.

oh wow so as generations of bright bright orange get bred they eventually get to the point where they are red or you mean the same concept applied to the light reds that were line bred over generations where eventually they were flaming red. So I could eventually get bright orange but not likely to ever go red though huh

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

oh wow so as generations of bright bright orange get bred they eventually get to the point where they are red or you mean the same concept applied to the light reds that were line bred over generations where eventually they were flaming red. So I could eventually get bright orange but not likely to ever go red though huh

I have seen orange flames come from red flames, but not the other way around. The flaming red flames came from animals that were caught that actually were already quite flaming red (like the snakes that charles has caught) Selective breeding can lead to better looking snakes down the road, but there is always the troubles of introducing fresh blood without weakening the coloration. I don't think you will ever get reds from an orange line like that, but it's possible to selectively breed the orangest animals over generations to get a premium line of orange.

[ssssnakeluvr]

http://a8.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc3/30105_124833560888292_122158967822418_124177_62120 97_n.jpg

here's my orange eastern...bred a couple years ago, had a nice orange one at birth, but the few babies died.

[guidofatherof5]

Sweet looking orange snakes.;)

[ConcinusMan]

Indeed. And another good example of a Canadian eastern garter.

[Philminator]

http://a8.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc3/30105_124833560888292_122158967822418_124177_62120 97_n.jpg

here's my orange eastern...bred a couple years ago, had a nice orange one at birth, but the few babies died.

sad to hear about the babies :( that is a nicer orange than mine I'm jealous :P mine still has more or less a yellow stripe on top where as yours is 100% orange. I'm hoping some of my litter could maybe end up looking like yours. If not this year as the season is coming to an end next spring I'm going to hunt in Charle's area and herp like crazy since he's only a few hours drive away and see if I can slowly get some nice reds / oranges going but not too many as the law restricts the amount of native garters I can have. My reds someday and my current orange will be for show piece only and not to sell to make money. If I had babies and people were around I'd be more than happy to trade for some of other peoples babies or give them free as I am primarily in this for the experience.