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guidofatherof5
08-04-2011, 08:39 PM
I got this list from Stefan a few months back and thought I would post it. Thanks Stefan.
So many garter snakes. So little time:D

If there have been any changes please advise.


1. Thamnophis angustirostris (Longnose Garter Snake)

2. Thamnophis atratus (Pacific Coast Aquatic Garter Snake)
T. a. atratus (Santa Cruz garter snake)
T. a. hydrophilus (Oregon garter snake)
T. a. zaxanthus (Diablo Range garter snake)

3. Thamnophis bogerti (Bogert's Garter Snake)

4. Thamnophis brachystoma (Short-Headed Garter Snake)

5. Thamnophis butleri (Butler's Garter Snake)

6. Thamnophis chrysocephalus (Golden-Headed Garter Snake)

7. Thamnophis conanti (Conant's Garter Snake)

8. Thamnophis couchii (Sierra Garter Snake)

9. Thamnophis cyrtopsis (Black-Necked Garter Snake)
T. c. collaris (Tropical blackneck garter snake)
T. c. cyrtopsis (Western blackneck garter snake)
T. c. ocellatus (Eastern blackneck garter snake)

10. Thamnophis elegans (Western Terrestial Garter Snake)
T. e. elegans (Mountain garter snake)
T. e. terrestris (Coast garter snake)
T. e. vagrans (Wandering garter snake)

11. Thamnophis eques (Mexican Garter Snake)
T. e. eques (Mexican garter snake)
T. e. carmenensis
T. e. cuitzeoensis
T. e. diluvialis
T. e. insperatus
T. e. obscurus
T. e. patzcuaroensis
T. e. scotti
T. e. megalops (Northern Mexican garter snake)
T. e. virgatenuis

12. Thamnophis errans (Mexican Wandering Garter Snake)

13. Thamnophis exsul (Exiled Garter Snake)

14. Thamnophis fulvus (Mesoamerican Highlands Garter Snake)

15. Thamnophis gigas (Giant Garter Snake)

16. Thamnophis godmani (Godman's Garter Snake)

17. Thamnophis hammondii (Two-Striped Garter Snake)

18. Thamnophis lineri (Liner's Garter Snake)

19. Thamnophis marcianus (Checkered Garter Snake)
T. m. bovallii
T. m. marcianus
T. m. praeocularis

20. Thamnophis melanogaster (Mexican Black-Bellied Garter Snake)
T. m. canescens (Gray blackbelly garter snake)
T. m. chihuahuaensis (Chihuahuan blackbelly garter snake)
T. m. linearis (Lined blackbelly garter snake)
T. m. melanogaster (Mexican blackbelly garter snake)

21. Thamnophis mendax (Tamaulipan Montane Garter Snake)

22. Thamnophis nigronuchalis (Southern Durango Spotted Garter Snake)

23. Thamnophis ordinoides (Northwestern Garter Snake)

24. Thamnophis postremus (Tepalcatepec Valley Garter Snake)

25. Thamnophis proximus (Western Ribbon Snake)
T. p. alpinus (Chiapas Highland ribbon snake)
T. p. diabolicus (Aridland ribbon snake)
T. p. orarius (Gulf coast ribbon snake)
T. p. proximus (Western ribbon snake)
T. p. rubrilineatus (Redstripe ribbon snake)
T. p. rutiloris (Mexican ribbon snake)

26. Thamnophis pulchrilatus (Yellow-Throated Garter Snake)

27. Thamnophis radix (Great Plains Garter Snake, Plains Garter Snake)

28. Thamnophis rossmani (Rossman's Garter Snake)

29. Thamnophis rufipunctatus (Narrow-Headed Garter Snake)

30. Thamnophis sauritus (Eastern Ribbon Snake)
T. s. nitae (Bluestripe ribbon snake)
T. s. sackenii (Peninsula ribbon snake)
T. s. sauritus (Eastern ribbon snake)
T. s. septentrionalis (Northern ribbon snake)

31. Thamnophis scalaris (Mexican Alpine Blotched Garter Snake, Longtail Alpine Garter Snake)

32. Thamnophis scaliger (Mesa Central Blotched Garter Snake, Short-tail Alpine Garter Snake)

33. Thamnophis sirtalis (Common Garter Snake)
T. s. annectens (Texas garter snake)
T. s. concinnus (Red-spotted garter snake)
T. s. dorsalis (New Mexico garter snake)
T. s. fitchi (Valley garter snake)
T. s. infernalis (California red-sided garter snake)
T. s. pallidulus (Maritime garter snake)
T. s. parietalis (Red-sided garter snake)
T. s. pickeringii (Puget Sound garter snake)
T. s. semifasciatus (Chicago garter snake)
T. s. similis (Blue-striped garter snake)
T. s. sirtalis (Eastern garter snake)
T. s. tetrataenia (San Francisco garter snake)

34. Thamnophis sumichrasti (Sumichrast's Garter Snake)

35. Thamnophis validus (Mexican Pacific Lowlands Garter Snake)
T. v. celaeno
T. v. isabelleae
T. v. thamnophisoides
T. v. validus

indigoman
08-05-2011, 03:36 AM
Thanks for posting some of the Mexican garters I have seen mentioned but i have no listing of.

brain
08-07-2011, 03:37 PM
I got this list from Stefan a few months back and thought I would post it. Thanks Stefan.
So many garter snakes. So little time:D

I didn't realize there were so many species.

guidofatherof5
08-07-2011, 07:27 PM
Such a wonderful species.
They are all quite Thamulous ;)

RedSidedSPR
08-07-2011, 09:07 PM
Oh, that was just awful :D

snakehill
08-08-2011, 07:04 AM
Difference between a Great Plains garter and a Plains garter? Steve?:confused: (size? location?)

guidofatherof5
08-08-2011, 07:43 AM
I believe the only difference is the word "Great".:D

It's just another acceptable name for the same snake.
To be honest I've never seen them called "Great Plains Garter Snake" anywhere but on this list.;)

Checking into this I found a reference:
Plains Garter Snake (http://ndis.nrel.colostate.edu/herpatlas/coherpatlas/cdow_herpetofaunal_atlas_species_snake_thamnophisr adix.htm)

I also found a reference to "Great Plains Garter Snake" on Youtube.
Sounds like it's connected with a location also.
Hope this helps ;)

"What's in a name? that which we call a radix
By any other name would be as sweet" :D

snakehill
08-08-2011, 07:54 AM
Also when I googled Great Plains garter, Eastern Plains garter came up. Is this correct? I thought there was no such thing as an Eastern Plains! I am confused!:confused:

guidofatherof5
08-08-2011, 08:01 AM
I didn't find that when I search but it may be referring to "Eastern" as a part of the Plains garter snake range.

Not to be confused with the Eastern Garter Snake(Thamnophis sirtalis sirtalis).

All of this refers to Thamnohis radix.
In my opinion.;)

snakehill
08-08-2011, 08:20 AM
It said Thamnophis Radix Radix. Found only in Marion and Wyandot counties in Ohio but also found in Northeastern Indiana. Huh?

Didymus20X6
08-08-2011, 08:42 AM
Apparently, there used to be two recognized subspecies of Radix. However, due to the biological differences being minimal, the subspecies are no longer recognized as separate.

snakehill
08-08-2011, 08:44 AM
Okay! Thanks for clarifying that! So much to learn!:o

guidofatherof5
08-08-2011, 08:49 AM
Can you post a link to that.

T.r radix and T. r haydenii are not recognized subspecies.

Image taken from "The Garter Snake Evolution and Ecology" by Douglas A. Rossman Neil B. Ford and Richard A. Seigal
Pages 237-238
http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/medium/trbook.jpghttp://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/medium/book12.jpg

guidofatherof5
08-08-2011, 08:51 AM
Apparently, there used to be two recognized subspecies of Radix. However, due to the biological differences being minimal, the subspecies are no longer recognized as separate.

Good info. You posted while I was creating my reply.;)

Kantar
08-08-2011, 09:40 AM
Thamnophis Radix Radix are found here
Eastern Plains Garter Snake
Serpent, my female I am very sure is this

RedSidedSPR
08-08-2011, 09:45 AM
And both are thamnophis radix. Plains garter snake ;)

Stefan-A
08-08-2011, 09:51 AM
It's supposed to be just "Plains", not "Great Plains".

Kantar
08-08-2011, 10:05 AM
what is the exact difference?
the 2 native species here is red sided and eastern plains

but it is just so confusing.. I'm seeing more than just 2 different kinds of garters in the wild

But from what I see there is 4 different patterns
Red sided (spot for example http://a2.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/264193_10150302786624359_525334358_9239254_4602348 _n.jpg)

White sided? (red sided but white has no upper pattern . . . . http://a5.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc1/10625_170949804358_525334358_3687761_1989672_n.jpg )

eastern plains, has a .'.'.'.' pattern http://a1.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/281518_10150326718249359_525334358_9502221_7645150 _n.jpg

No pattern, just has the stripe and jet black where there should be a design http://a1.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/223603_10150326717164359_525334358_9502209_1177008 _n.jpg

RedSidedSPR
08-08-2011, 10:15 AM
Different look, marking etc, doesn't mean it's a different species. That "white sided" was a red sided. Just has a unique pattern.

guidofatherof5
08-08-2011, 11:06 AM
what is the exact difference?
the 2 native species here is red sided and eastern plains

but it is just so confusing.. I'm seeing more than just 2 different kinds of garters in the wild

But from what I see there is 4 different patterns
Red sided (spot for example http://a2.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/264193_10150302786624359_525334358_9239254_4602348 _n.jpg)

White sided? (red sided but white has no upper pattern . . . . http://a5.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc1/10625_170949804358_525334358_3687761_1989672_n.jpg )

eastern plains, has a .'.'.'.' pattern http://a1.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/281518_10150326718249359_525334358_9502221_7645150 _n.jpg

No pattern, just has the stripe and jet black where there should be a design http://a1.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/223603_10150326717164359_525334358_9502209_1177008 _n.jpg


Calling them an Eastern Plains is messing with my head.:D

Plains Garter snake(T.radix)

Eastern garter snake(T.s.sirtalis)

RedSidedSPR
08-08-2011, 11:11 AM
There's really no Great Plain, or Eastern Plains. Like I said just a Plains, Thamnophis radix.

guidofatherof5
08-08-2011, 11:15 AM
There's really no Great Plain, or Eastern Plains. Like I said just a Plains, Thamnophis radix.

Exactly.;)

Kantar
08-08-2011, 11:50 AM
Calling them an Eastern Plains is messing with my head.:D


but everyone around here calls them that :(

guidofatherof5
08-08-2011, 12:01 PM
but everyone around here calls them that :(

Must be a local colloquialism.
I've never heard it before. ;) but I live a shealtered life.

RedSidedSPR
08-08-2011, 12:06 PM
but everyone around here calls them that :(


People call garter snakes "garden snakes", doesn't make it right. Steves right, it's probably just a local thing.

Kantar
08-09-2011, 10:31 AM
just trying to get less confused here.

So what is the difference between a Thamnophis Sirtalis and a Thamnophis Sirtalis-Sirtalis?

Garters with subspecies always have the 2nd name twice? I'd just like to know the difference

Google images don't help because if I search Plains garter sname and eastern garter snake they come up with the same images. Is there some sort of difference I'm not noticing?

I tried googling Thamnophis Marcianus Albino and every 2nd or 3rd result comes up with Thamnophis Marcianus Marcianus

How can you tell the difference between the garters and all their subspecies if there is very little to distinguish between them?

RedSidedSPR
08-09-2011, 10:49 AM
just trying to get less confused here.

So what is the difference between a Thamnophis Sirtalis and a Thamnophis Sirtalis-Sirtalis?

Garters with subspecies always have the 2nd name twice? I'd just like to know the difference

Google images don't help because if I search Plains garter sname and eastern garter snake they come up with the same images. Is there some sort of difference I'm not noticing?

I tried googling Thamnophis Marcianus Albino and every 2nd or 3rd result comes up with Thamnophis Marcianus Marcianus

How can you tell the difference between the garters and all their subspecies if there is very little to distinguish between them?

Sirtalis is "common garter snakes". Thamnophis sirtalis concinnus (red spot) thamnophis sirtalis parietalis (redsided) and all others with sirtalis are all sirtlalis. Thamnophis sirtalis sirtalis (eastern) is a sirtalis like the rest.

I know. I can't explain it well...

The ones without sirtlalis, like thamnophis Radix, I don't think ever double like t. radix radix. (doesn't exist btw)

T.s. Means thamnophis sirtlalis. So you could write T.s parietlalis for redsided. T.Radix. (without "s.") for plains. It's more like the word thamnophis than the actuall subspecies. It's still a parietalis, but it's a sirtalis , just like it's a tjnophis...

Here's all the sirtalis subspecies. Out of 70 these are thamnophis sirtalis.

T. s. sirtalis (Linnaeus, 1758) – Eastern Garter Snake
T. s. parietalis Say, 1823 – Red-sided Garter Snake (has also been introduced to northern Halland in Sweden)
T. s. infernalis Blainville, 1835 – California Red-sided Garter Snake
T. s. concinnus Hallowell, 1852 – Red-spotted Garter Snake
T. s. dorsalis Baird & Girard, 1853 – New Mexico Garter Snake
T. s. pickeringii Baird and Girard, 1853 – Puget Sound Garter Snake
T. s. tetrataenia Cope, 1875 – San Francisco Garter Snake (endangered)
T. s. semifasciatus Cope, 1892 – Chicago Garter Snake
T. s. pallidulus Allen, 1899 – Maritime Garter Snake
T. s. annectens Brown, 1950 – Texas Garter Snake
T. s. fitchi Fox, 1951 – Valley Garter Snake
T. s. similis Rossman, 1965 – Blue-striped Garter Snake
T. s. lowei Tanner, 1988[2]

guidofatherof5
08-09-2011, 01:24 PM
I was able to find this section of Wikipedia on the Plains Garter snake.
According to this article T.radix radix was once called "Eastern Plains Garter Snake"
Plains Garter Snake - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plains_Garter_Snake)

It looks like "Easter Plains Garter Snake" is more than just a local colloquialism ;)
It still messes with my head when I hear it.:D

Subspecies
Formerly two subspecies of the Plains Garter Snake were widely recognized, however, most authorities have since dropped subspecies recognition. The first, Thamnophis radix radix, was commonly referred to as the Eastern plains garter snake, while Thamnophis radix haydeni (Kennicott (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Kennicott) 1860) was considered the Western subspecies. However, the distinction between the two is weak, partly based on the number of scales and partly on slight coloration differences, with the T. r. haydeni said to have cleaner markings and more ventral and neck scales. As the two subspecies share the same habitat in many regions of the United States, further complicated by their strikingly similar appearance, many now do not recognize the two subspecies.

Kantar
08-09-2011, 01:38 PM
So I probably do have possibly 2 Thamnophis R. Radix (serpent & Slider), its just very hard to tell, those 2 just look so much different from the other ones I have. I wish telling apart snakes were as easy as reading sheet music, their designs are so close but still very different to me

RedSidedSPR
08-09-2011, 01:45 PM
It's easier than sheet music. I can't even do that. :D

And no. You have possibly 2 thamnophis radix.

Stefan-A
08-09-2011, 09:25 PM
T. s. lowei Tanner, 1988[2]
Is no more.

RedSidedSPR
08-09-2011, 09:34 PM
Didn't see that... I just copy/pasted :p

katach
08-09-2011, 09:44 PM
T. s. lowei Tanner, 1988[2]

What was this garter? Does anyone have any pictures?

kibakiba
08-09-2011, 09:47 PM
Lowe's garter snake. I don't think there are any pictures of it.

Stefan-A
08-09-2011, 09:53 PM
T. s. lowei Tanner, 1988[2]

What was this garter? Does anyone have any pictures?
Ruled to be T. sirtalis dorsalis, IIRC.

guidofatherof5
08-09-2011, 09:56 PM
T.s. lowei info.

Paraphrased by Stefan in the previous post.

The garter snakes: evolution and ecology - Google Books (http://books.google.com/books?id=n2rW7E8_uJoC&pg=PA264&lpg=PA264&dq=T.+s.+lowei&source=bl&ots=Kb5qQ9uyc2&sig=6DBFLtTbfcORjIZRjGdvqaCpCGw&hl=en&ei=_v9BTp_dHfDksQLO9aHVCQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4&ved=0CD8Q6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=T.%20s.%20lowei&f=false)

katach
08-09-2011, 10:01 PM
Cool. Thanks!

ConcinusMan
09-02-2011, 02:09 PM
but everyone around here calls them that :(


They could call them late for dinner and it wouldn't matter. All plains garters are Thamnophis radix and that's the only name that really matters. There are no longer any recognized subspecies so the term "eastern" added to "plains garter" is invalid. Eastern implies they are different from other radixes. They are not as far as classification is concerned and so they are all "plains garter snakes"