I need help IDing this Garter Snake

[Venti]

Yesterday I found this little guy where I found Theif. He is not a Red-sided Garter Snake, so what is he?

Based on the snakes in my state, he could be:

Checkered Garter Snake (http://www.gpnc.org/chgartersnake.htm) - Thamnophis marcianus
Western Ribbon Snake (http://www.gpnc.org/wrsnake.htm) - Thamnophis proximus
Plains Garter Snake (http://www.gpnc.org/pgsnake.htm) - Thamnophis radix
And this is what I don't think he is:
Common Garter Snake (http://www.gpnc.org/cogsnake.htm) - Thamnophis sirtalis

Pictures coming soon, but for now a description since my camera is recharging:

About 4 inches long, orange on the sides does not appear as on Thamnophis sirtalis, no yellow or white dots on head. Irregular black ticking near belly in a stripe that follows the cream colored stripe on it's back.

[Starling96]

Not sure
Pics help

[Venti]

I am uploading them to Photobucket right now, I think I am leaning towards Plains Garter Snake, but Steve would know for sure I think.

[guidofatherof5]

I'll do my best.;)

[Venti]

Here are the photos. He is really beautiful, and I would hate to have to let him go if he is a checkered garter snake, but I suppose it would be for the best. He is a bit nippy, he acts like he's three feet long opposed to a few inches!

You can click on any of the images to make them bigger if needed.

http://i1219.photobucket.com/albums/dd439/StormFly/th_71.jpg (http://s1219.photobucket.com/albums/dd439/StormFly/?action=view&current=71.jpg)

http://i1219.photobucket.com/albums/dd439/StormFly/th_72.jpg (http://s1219.photobucket.com/albums/dd439/StormFly/?action=view&current=72.jpg)

http://i1219.photobucket.com/albums/dd439/StormFly/th_73.jpg (http://s1219.photobucket.com/albums/dd439/StormFly/?action=view&current=73.jpg)

http://i1219.photobucket.com/albums/dd439/StormFly/th_74.jpg (http://s1219.photobucket.com/albums/dd439/StormFly/?action=view&current=74.jpg)

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

Eastern Garter snake... thamnophis sirtalis sirtalis.... a variation of the common garter snake, which includes the red sideds (the one in the common garter snake website picture), the easterns, and many other types of garters. Not all eastern garters have the orange on the sides of their necks, or spots on their heads, or even a lateral stripe! They vary infinitely but that's a pretty classing looking sirtalis.

[guidofatherof5]

My first impression is T.sirtalis not T.radix.
Would love to do a scale count(good side body close up) and a good side face close up. Any chance of that?

[guidofatherof5]

Where are you located? State?

Let's see what ranges in your area.

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

it's also entirely possible that he is a thamnophis sirtalis parietalis (red sided) that is totally lacking red.... they do exist! but he's one of those two... red sided, or eastern. I'm going to stick with eastern.

[RedSidedSPR]

He looks like a eastern, but yeah, redsided is possible, I've seen some with NO red. They look just like that...

[Didymus20X6]

I say Eastern.

[jitami]

Where are you located? State?

Let's see what ranges in your area.

The links he posted points to southern Kansas...

[Venti]

The links he posted points to southern Kansas...

She :)

I'm in Kansas, very close to Missouri.
I will try to get some more face and body closeups, anything else?

[guidofatherof5]

Well, you have T.radix (Plains Garter), T.s.parietalis (Red Sided Garter) and T.s.sirtalis (Eastern Garter) in your area.
T.marcanius(Checkered Garter) only ranges in a very small part of Kansas along the Oklahoma border.

I don't think this is a Ribbon. They range in Kansas but I think it is out of the running for ID.
Just my opinion.

[Venti]

That rules out the checkered garter snake then.
I'm probably leaning towards eastern now, I have caught and adult before and it looked more like that.

[guidofatherof5]

I'll stand by my first guess and say T.s.sirtalis (Eastern Garter).
I've never seen a Red Sided without red. That would really muddy up the ID water.

[RedSidedSPR]

It can only be eastern or a red-less redsided...

[RedSidedSPR]

I've never seen a Red Sided without red.

I have. Several.

[guidofatherof5]

Must not be any in my area.;)

[RedSidedSPR]

never seen them in person, but they do exist. CB redsided litters often have some of those...

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

In that case.... it is definitely an eastern. Clear as a bell! :D

[guidofatherof5]

never seen them in person, but they do exist. CB redsided litters often have some of those...

Maybe at birth but they probably acquire some red as time goes by.

Anyone out there have a photo of a no-red, Red sided Garter(adult)? I'd love to see one. Thanks.;)

[RedSidedSPR]

Can't find any pics, and don't know where I've seen them, but if you scroll down here, she has one. Only place I can remember, but not the only one I've seen.
http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/sale-trade-adoption/8753-2011-cbb-red-sided-garter-babies.html

[guidofatherof5]

Discussion continued on "Its oh so quiet" No reason to de-rail this thread.;)

[ssssnakeluvr]

definitely an eastern.... go to the other link and read my post, link to scott felzer's site, absolute no red red sided garter, calle dthe"golden". came from a w/c female I had a few years back. I have actually found one in the wild there in Kansas too....but she passed away

[Jeff B]

I say its an eastern. The side stripe isn't sharp and 4th scale up and lack of correct marks below eye, say not radix to me. Doesn't look red-sided to me at all, dorsal stripes on red-sideds are wider.
The picture with the litter of red-sideds that were sited all have red on them to my eye even the one that is said to have no red has low red to my eye.
Don's golden is the only one I have ever heard of, and that has not reproduced.
I've caught hundreds of wild red-sideds in my area over the years, never seen one without red, some with darker red, some with browish/orangish red, some very underfed snakes that at a glance don't look like they have much red because the scales aren't spread on the sides.

[Venti]

Thanks everyone for the help, I am really exicted about having an eastern.
I never have seen a red sided garter snake without red. I read that everyone sees colors differently, maybe it just depends person to person?

[RedSidedSPR]

No. There are a few out there. I keep looking for those pictures i've seen, but i cannot find any. Adult red sideds, that people could swear was eastern, but were red sided, often CB.

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

Yea, I wasn't talking about the morph redsideds that seem to be genetically lacking red, like the golden one... I mean there are legit parietalis out there that just, don't have any red.... all brown and black. But this snake, is an eastern, you can just look at it and tell! :D

[BLUESIRTALIS]

I think Scott Felzer had or still has a golden red sided.

[mustang]

eastern :) wow, im gone for a while and non im reading redless red sided blasphamy!:rolleyes: what would you all do without me;)

so what does this redless redisided garter look like?(since this is an eastern)

Great first we debated and inveestigated the piebald garters, now its the redless red sided haha:D

[RedSidedSPR]

They look like easterns pretty much :p

Not really, but they look like redsided... just without red.

[BLUESIRTALIS]

If you look on Scott Felzer's website under pricelist and redsided garters he has a pic of the golden red sided garter that don produced.

[guidofatherof5]

I was thinking more of a normal looking T.s.p just without the red.
When I was at the Narsisse dens a few years ago I never saw a single snake without red.
Some were reduced but still red.

[RedSidedSPR]

I know, I don't know how to convince you they exist, but trust me, they do. They look alot like that link I gave you, only NO red, and adult.

[snakehill]

I don't know if I am on the right thread or not. They have an ad for Aquatic Garter Snakes in another sites classified section. That's all it says. What could we be talking about? Any opinions please!:confused:

[RedSidedSPR]

Morons again. Link?

[guidofatherof5]

T.atratus

Naturalist: Pacific Coast Aquatic Garter Snake - Willamette University (http://www.willamette.edu/cla/biology/naturalist/spp_des/pcgarter.htm)

[RedSidedSPR]

Oh... ok. They're not morons.:p

[snakehill]

Can't find pictures on that link! :o

[RedSidedSPR]

Post the link.

[snakehill]

Post the link. Who Me??!!:rolleyes:

[snakehill]

Oh Santa Cruz!!:o Beautiful garters!!!

[ConcinusMan]

He looks like a eastern, but yeah, redsided is possible, I've seen some with NO red. They look just like that...


Same here. I've seen them too. (in pictures) Red sided (T.s. pariatalis) without red are nearly indistinguishable from easterns (T.s sirtalis) but they do happen. Chances are this one is just an eastern, which as most of you know, are highly variable.

[ConcinusMan]

Scotts Golden (lacking red) red sided:

http://img843.imageshack.us/img843/5564/redsided.jpg

Another red sided found not too long ago that doesn't have any red:

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5309/5862763624_5a10a34db1.jpg

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2737/5862763606_460940f664.jpg

[RedSidedSPR]

How'd you find pictures?!:D I looked everywhere! Those arent the ones I was lookjn for but still!

See? There ya go. They exist.

[ConcinusMan]

It helps that I was involved in a discussion on another forum that was started prior to this thread. There was some debate as to the I.D. of the snake in the second two pictures. So when this thread came up, I already knew where the pictures are.

[RedSidedSPR]

Yeah, that would help:rolleyes:

[Jeff B]

Scotts Golden (lacking red) red sided:

http://img843.imageshack.us/img843/5564/redsided.jpg

Another red sided found not too long ago that doesn't have any red:

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5309/5862763624_5a10a34db1.jpg

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2737/5862763606_460940f664.jpg

The snake in the second and third pic here look very, very, very radix to me. Very sharp line on side 4th scale up on side and a very radix looking head and neck.

[RedSidedSPR]

I was thinking that too....

[ConcinusMan]

So did I, but it was found outside that range. (don't recall exactly where at the moment but I remember it can't be a radix) It was found where only easterns and red sided occur. If you ask me, it looks nearly identical to the top pic, right down to the facial markings and we know that one is a red sided.

The debate over this snake was, is it an eastern, or a red sided. I say red sided.

[RedSidedSPR]

Me too. Redsided.

[Jeff B]

So did I, but it was found outside that range. (don't recall exactly where at the moment but I remember it can't be a radix) It was found where only easterns and red sided occur. If you ask me, it looks nearly identical to the top pic, right down to the facial markings and we know that one is a red sided.

The debate over this snake was, is it an eastern, or a red sided. I say red sided.

the side line is completely different than the first pic

[ConcinusMan]

The first pic was Scott's "golden" red sided acquired from Don if I'm not mistaken.

The second two pics are a different snake than Scotts "golden" but the second two pics are of same snake. There is at least one more angle/ pic of that snake but seriously if you look at it carefully you can see suppressed red coloring. It just appears as a muted muddy rust/brown color. I'm convinced that it's a red sided. 100%.

I only showed Scotts pic to illustrate the clear similarities. There are certain characteristics that are clearly congruent with the second two pics. Those similarities clue me in that this is not just another eastern, but rather an uncommon red sided.


Scotts Golden (lacking red) red sided:

http://img843.imageshack.us/img843/5564/redsided.jpg

Another red sided found not too long ago that doesn't have any red:

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5309/5862763624_5a10a34db1.jpg

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2737/5862763606_460940f664.jpg

And if we get back to the original post, the snake shown is a neonate. could easily be a red sided but then again, many red sideds look like easterns as neonates.

http://i1219.photobucket.com/albums/dd439/StormFly/71.jpg