Rufipunctatus

[Josh_r]

Is there anyone working with this species? I have a friend in Arizona that had acquired 2 pairs of these before they were protected and has bred them. Far as I am aware, he can legally gift them out. Would there be a law prohibiting them from leaving the state?

[ConcinusMan]

Not sure about that being legal. Not even sure it's legal for him to possess them regardless of when he acquired them.

They don't thrill me honestly. Seems so much similar to nerodia (water snakes) so why not just go with that? If you ask me, they don't even belong in the Thamnophis genus. Probably should be called Acrochordus Rufipunctatus

[guidofatherof5]

I think Shannon(aSnakeLovinBabe) has a couple.

[Josh_r]

Not sure about that being legal. Not even sure it's legal for him to possess them regardless of when he acquired them.

They don't thrill me honestly. Seems so much similar to nerodia (water snakes) so why not just go with that? If you ask me, they don't even belong in the Thamnophis genus. Probably should be called Acrochordus Rufipunctatus


Hahaha! I couldn't agree more. I used to say that to him all the time. He got them before they were protected so his animals were grandfather claused in. F&W in az knows he has them. They arent the best lookin snake but they are very interesting behaviorally.

[BUSHSNAKE]

its nice to hear that somebody has captive bred that species, awesome!

[jitami]

If F&W is aware of them, why not just ask them what the regulations are regarding gifting the captive born babies?

[Josh_r]

Yeah the babies are super cute.

I have had a couple people Pm asking me to get them some babies. I dont know if my friend has babies right now. I haven't talked to him about these snakes in quite a while. I can't promise anything to anybody. Sorry.

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

I find it -so- hard to see those as garter snakes... I mean... LOOK at them!!! :D

Steve, I have never owned any of those guys... but I wish!!!

[guidofatherof5]

I find it -so- hard to see those as garter snakes... I mean... LOOK at them!!! :D

Steve, I have never owned any of those guys... but I wish!!!


Sorry about that;) Old guy moment:D

[RedSidedSPR]

I'd keep 'em. They're awesome

[Josh_r]

I'm going to look into the legality of getting cb from my friend. I'm not keeping my hopes up though as Arizona f&w is super strict.

[kibakiba]

They are a little weird looking... But at the same time, I would love to have a few, if it were legal.

[RedSidedSPR]

I love them. They're only weird looking for a garter. They look like a water snake. It's awesome!

[kibakiba]

Well, if they didn't have a narrow face, they'd look like a garter, imo.

[RedSidedSPR]

I know, but they do, so they don't.:D But they're still awesome.

[guidofatherof5]

Found this info.
http://www.wildlife.state.nm.us/conservation/documents/Narrow-headedGartersnake_Final.pdf

[Josh_r]

It sounds like this is one that shouldn't be bothered with. I don't think I'm gonna ask. I'll just stick with the concinnus

[guidofatherof5]

I don't think I'm gonna ask. I'll just stick with the concinnus

Good choice. They are an awesome snake.

[mb90078]

I'm curious as to what defines the difference between a Water Snake and a Garter with regards to a species like this.

[guidofatherof5]

Two different Genus of snakes.
Water snake- Nerodia
Garter snake- Thamnophis

If that's what you're asking.

[mb90078]

Two different Genus of snakes.
Water snake- Nerodia
Garter snake- Thamnophis

If that's what you're asking.

No, no, I got that part. My question is what makes them place this species (Rufipunctatus) (or for that matter Gigas) in the genus Thamnophis vs Nerodia.

Or better yet...what makes Thamnophis and Nerodia separate genuses(?)?

I understand that the "animal kingdom" doesn't always play nicely with the classifications we try to put them into, but I'm just curious on the criteria in this situation.

[guidofatherof5]

No, no, I got that part. My question is what makes them place this species (Rufipunctatus) (or for that matter Gigas) in the genus Thamnophis vs Nerodia.

Or better yet...what makes Thamnophis and Nerodia separate genuses(?)?

I understand that the "animal kingdom" doesn't always play nicely with the classifications we try to put them into, but I'm just curious on the criteria in this situation.

I can't answer your question but hope that Stefan can shed some light on it. He should be stopping in on the forum in the next hour. Hopefully he will have sometime to respond.
Not trying to put you on the spot Stefan but you're the first person that came to mind when I saw this question.;)

[Stefan-A]

My question is what makes them place this species (Rufipunctatus) (or for that matter Gigas) in the genus Thamnophis vs Nerodia.
Genetics and morphology. That's how it usually goes.

http://koti.mbnet.fi/thamnoph/photos/snakes10/thamcontree.jpg

(note: not the only phylogenetic tree for this genus)


Or better yet...what makes Thamnophis and Nerodia separate genuses(?)? Genetic and morphological differences that demonstrate these two genera to be two separate lineages. And as always, there's the lumping vs. splitting problem.

[mb90078]

Genetics and morphology. That's how it usually goes.

http://koti.mbnet.fi/thamnoph/photos/snakes10/thamcontree.jpg

(note: not the only phylogenetic tree for this genus)

Genetic and morphological differences that demonstrate these two genera to be two separate lineages. And as always, there's the lumping vs. splitting problem.

Very interesting tree. I would never have guessed to see Radix and Sirtalis so far from each other.

I would still argue that Rufipunctatusis morphologically more of a Nerodia than Thamnophis (to the naked eye at least). And I would tend to doubt that the DNA of the different species of Garters and Water snakes has been fully sequenced.

And yes, I could go on all day about lumping and splitting. I took a couple introductory courses on evolution and genetics in college.

[BUSHSNAKE]

rufipunctatus has a single anal plate like all thamnophis, nerodia doesnt

[RedSidedSPR]

Ah! Genius! Bravo good chap! :D

[mb90078]

rufipunctatus has a single anal plate like all thamnophis, nerodia doesnt

So that is the deciding factor on which genus it gets placed into?

Interesting, but does it really prove that it is more closely related to garters? Couldn't it have been a mutation that just coincidentally is in common with Thamnophis and different from Nerodia??

[guidofatherof5]

I don't know but I doubt if an anal plate was the deciding factor.
Probably just one of many things.
Wish I could be more helpful.

[Stefan-A]

rufipunctatus has a single anal plate like all thamnophis, nerodia doesnt
According to my notes, that scale is divided on rufipunctatus, unlike the rest of Thamnophis.

[snakehill]

Too technical for me!!!:D

[BUSHSNAKE]

some rufipunctatus have a divided scale, but i thought it was less then 10%

[BUSHSNAKE]

maybe one day itll have its own genus, rufipunctatus have both single and divided anal plates(only a small percentage have divided)...ive also read that its a bridge species between the two genus Nerodia and Thamnophis

[RedSidedSPR]

It's still looks like a thamnophis to me... just not a garter. :p

[kibakiba]

Thamnophis are garters... What exactly did you mean by that?

[RedSidedSPR]

I know that!! That was rather insulting:p It was a joke.

I just meant that, it looks like garter snake, it just looks different.

[kibakiba]

So do ribbons, shorthead garter snakes and mexican garters. But, they're still garters.

[RedSidedSPR]

I KNOW THAT!! I wasn't trying to be realistic, I was joking!! Never mind!

[kibakiba]

You have to remember, I'm a woman. Women tend to get pissy and serious for "no reason" :rolleyes:

[RedSidedSPR]

Whatever :D

[kibakiba]

It's a lesson you need to learn, and learn fast. There are women that are worse than me! ;)

[RedSidedSPR]

Trust me I know :D

[kibakiba]

I'm sure. You haven't seen anything from me, yet. My boyfriend normally stays away, far away.

[snakehill]

Whatever :D
You have ALOT to learn Jesse!!!!!;)

[kibakiba]

Indeed ;) :D

[Didymus20X6]

To quote John Marston, "All I know is there's two theories on arguing with a woman, and neither one of them works."

[kibakiba]

That is completely true. Ask my boyfriend. :D

[RedSidedSPR]

Love that!:D

[snakehill]

To quote John Marston, "All I know is there's two theories on arguing with a woman, and neither one of them works." Pretty much sums it up!!!:p