Finally got one!

[GaiusIuliusTabernarius]

I was moving some logs on the side of my house and I happened across a thin brown garter trying to hide amongst the twigs and leaves. I instinctively grabbed him and brought him up to the habitat I'd prepared when I first started looking.

I left him alone with the lights on, I'm hoping he'll calm down enough for me to take some pictures of him later on. Since its raining, I'll probably go out later to find some worms for him to eat.

I should have some pictures to share soon, and if anyone has any advice on how to make a newly captive snake feel comfortable, I'd appreciate them.

[Kantar]

Interaction is the best way

[snakehill]

I would think you should leave him alone and let him adjust for now!;)

[GaiusIuliusTabernarius]

On further inspection its a bit bigger than I realized, might actually be female. Just over a foot long and 3/4th of an inch thick. I hope my old fish tank is big enough. It is still longer than the snake but I noticed it was pushing up against the glass... probably still trying to escape. I put a full spray bottle on top of the mesh to make sure it couldn't get out. I also filled the water dish. I'm hoping the little thing will calm down when it realizes I'm not going to eat it.

[snakehill]

Maybe you should cover the tank if freaks out to much!;)

[GaiusIuliusTabernarius]

I'll keep that in mind, really it only seems to react when it notices me. The room I have it in should suit a snake well. its quiet, warm, and not used much. There is artificial foliage in the tank so it should have space to hide. I also have one of those hollow rock things left over from when we had fish, (its been sterilized of course.) I'll post some pictures when my father gets home from the hospital, he has the only digital camera in the house and right now he's with my mom at an appointment.

[RedSidedSPR]

I wouldn't cover it. Let him get used to ya.

[GaiusIuliusTabernarius]

Ok I have pics, took some coaxing to get the little thing out. It was hiding under the bedding. I'm a bit concerned since its reaction was to musk so much that the whole cage started to smell of it. I'm hoping that will level off with time.

http://i693.photobucket.com/albums/vv291/giulianotaverna/Pets/P7250009.jpg

http://i693.photobucket.com/albums/vv291/giulianotaverna/Pets/P7250010.jpg

http://i693.photobucket.com/albums/vv291/giulianotaverna/Pets/P7250008.jpg

http://i693.photobucket.com/albums/vv291/giulianotaverna/Pets/P7250007.jpg

I don't suppose you can offer an opinion on its gender?

Also I'd like feedback on the enclosure I made.

[guidofatherof5]

Good looking big S.dekayi.(Brown snake)
Looks gravid unless that was a defensive puff-up.

[GaiusIuliusTabernarius]

I'm pretty sure it was a puff up, I had to coax it out into the open in order to get the pictures. It was hiding under the aspen bedding. Which makes sense since I found it hiding under a pile of logs on the side of my house. Its amazing I didn't accidentally crush it... I wasn't exactly being gentile with what I was doing. but then I'm sure the snake was avoiding what I was doing the entire time. That said it is possible that its female and gravid. I know "her" head is much smaller than her midsection even prior to the bluff, and "she" was very slow when uncovered. I'm guessing "she" was relying on "her" camouflage, brown snake, brown sticks... it probably works on the birds. It also fits in with my theory to explain why its been so hard to find these things. There are more birds than there used to be in my city, so if I am to find a snake its probably going to be somewhere with a lot of cover.

[guidofatherof5]

If she is gravid, that question should be answered in the next month or so.;)

[RedSidedSPR]

You'll have to be somewhere with cover regardless.

Awesome snake. I really like dekayi.

[GaiusIuliusTabernarius]

Having read up a bit on brown snakes... it seems they breed in late spring/early summer and give birth in late summer... so it is very possible that it is gravid. Which would be awesome... I have a lot of reading to do, feel free to offer any insight or suggestion you might have.

[GaiusIuliusTabernarius]

If she is gravid, that question should be answered in the next month or so.;)

True enough, though it means I have to do a lot more homework. I wasn't expecting to get a snake this big, or one in this condition.

[guidofatherof5]

Babies are very small at birth.
Slugs are a good first food or earthworms(pale-nosed worms)
Did I mention, the babies are very small.

[GaiusIuliusTabernarius]

You'll have to be somewhere with cover regardless.

Awesome snake. I really like dekayi.

According to what I've read their predators include crows, blue jays, and feral cats and dogs... its amazing I was even able to find one. The city is full of all those things. In fact there was a feral cat prowling around where I found the snake today, just a few days ago. I thought it was a male checking out my new 2 year old female tabby, but it could have been trying to get at the snake. We also have a ton of crows and blue jays in the trees in my backyard.

As you can see I have two types of fake leaves and a hollow fake rock, plus plenty of bedding for her to hide in. I also have a heating pad under the right side of the cage. I think I've covered my bases, I just have to find some earth worms, I'll look tomorrow.

[GaiusIuliusTabernarius]

Babies are very small at birth.
Slugs are a good first food or earthworms(pale-nosed worms)
Did I mention, the babies are very small.

Yeah I've seen babies before, a long time ago when I was little and there were far more snakes one of them gave birth and there were about 12 little black snakes. I'm not sure but I think those were also brown snakes. Granted it was a long time ago... and I ended up letting them go because I couldn't get them to eat. Should I cut up the worms for the babies or leave them whole?

[RedSidedSPR]

No matter what snake, it will always have predators, and will always seek cover. Therefore they will always be where cover is.

Your cage is ok. Bedding can't be the only hide. She's doing that partly cause that's all she's got. I'd put a hide on both sides of the cage.

Don't make it too hot, even on the hot side. Dekayis like it cool.

[guidofatherof5]

If they are tiny earthworms you can leave them whole. They would take them whole in the wild.
Don't leave out slugs on your food hunt.

[RedSidedSPR]

Yeah I've seen babies before, a long time ago when I was little and there were far more snakes one of them gave birth and there were about 12 little black snakes. I'm not sure but I think those were also brown snakes. Granted it was a long time ago... and I ended up letting them go because I couldn't get them to eat. Should I cut up the worms for the babies or leave them whole?

Cut them if they're too big. I can't imagine a whole worm small enough for a baby Dekay.

[guidofatherof5]

Cut them if they're too big. I can't imagine a whole worm small enough for a baby Dekay.

Some of the earthworms in my area are more than small enough for a baby dekayi to eat. They could probably eat 2 or 3 of them.

[GaiusIuliusTabernarius]

No matter what snake, it will always have predators, and will always seek cover. Therefore they will always be where cover is.

Your cage is ok. Bedding can't be the only hide. She's doing that partly cause that's all she's got. I'd put a hide on both sides of the cage.

Don't make it too hot, even on the hot side. Dekayis like it cool.

So the hollow rock and the leaves aren't enough? I'll see about getting a fake log or something in that case. I could always toss in a paper towel roll in the meantime.

Also the room is air conditioned. but I'll turn the pad off before I go to bed. Perhaps it would be best to only have it on a few hours at a time.

[GaiusIuliusTabernarius]

If they are tiny earthworms you can leave them whole. They would take them whole in the wild.
Don't leave out slugs on your food hunt.

I'll make sure to grab them if I see them, also there are a lot of snails in my backyard. I read somewhere that brown snakes have a special jaw that allows them to get the meat out of their shells, it might be worth trying if I can't find any slugs... though since it just rained I should be able to find them.

[guidofatherof5]

Dekayis' are a cool temp operating snake. Unless the room gets very cold you probably don't ever need a heat pad.
Wayne(infernalis) is our resident dekayi expert, hope he'll see this thread and respond.

[GaiusIuliusTabernarius]

Ok I'll toss it then. I suppose that makes sense, it never gets very hot up here...

Perhaps it will be more useful in the winter... though we have electric heating...

[infernalis]

HI!. I'm strapped for time at the moment.. I have been keeping Dekayi for years, as well as read all the information I could absorb and studied them on my property.

Dekayi are always first out in the spring and last out in the autumn. They hunt for food primarily in the early PM when the sun has dropped below the horizon, they spend all day in shady damp areas to stay cool.

Even if you keep your home at 60 degrees (F) all winter long, your snake will be perfectly comfortable. Heat is the enemy.

For a lamp, I use fluorescent spiral bulbs, they are cool operating and won't warm up the cage.

Your snake looks female and pregnant as well.

Raising babies is a challenge, believe me, they are super tiny and most neonates will only take slugs, little tiny slugs and maybe if you are lucky newborn night crawlers, and I can honestly say hatchling night crawlers are difficult to find.

http://www.thamfriends.com/MPFG/images/1apenny.jpg

http://www.thamfriends.com/photos/DKcup.jpg

http://www.thamfriends.com/forum/picture.php?albumid=17&pictureid=339

[katach]

Boy you guys weren't kidding about the babies being small! Wow!

[GaiusIuliusTabernarius]

HI!. I'm strapped for time at the moment.. I have been keeping Dekayi for years, as well as read all the information I could absorb and studied them on my property.

Dekayi are always first out in the spring and last out in the autumn. They hunt for food primarily in the early PM when the sun has dropped below the horizon, they spend all day in shady damp areas to stay cool.

Even if you keep your home at 60 degrees (F) all winter long, your snake will be perfectly comfortable. Heat is the enemy.

For a lamp, I use fluorescent spiral bulbs, they are cool operating and won't warm up the cage.

Your snake looks female and pregnant as well.

Raising babies is a challenge, believe me, they are super tiny and most neonates will only take slugs, little tiny slugs and maybe if you are lucky newborn night crawlers, and I can honestly say hatchling night crawlers are difficult to find.

http://www.thamfriends.com/MPFG/images/1apenny.jpg

Thanks for the advice... finding tiny slugs may be a challenge... I know from experience that my garden is full of snails and slugs, the snails have greenish shells with a spiral, and the slugs are I think Limax maximus. I've seen brown snakes regirgitate those when stressed so I know they eat them, whether or not they should is another story. Since they tend to be huge It might be a challenge to get the babies to eat them. Thankfully I should have a few weeks to figure it out.

Do you suppose they'd eat clams (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hard_clam)? I have a Quahogging license and I usually end up with so many that I have to freeze them for chowder, they are mollusks and are probably comparable in nutritional content.

[Didymus20X6]

Here's a cheap suggestion for a hide: a small flower pot turned upside down. Like 50c at Wal-Mart. Use a pair of pliers to break a small hole in the rim to serve as a door. If you feel ambitious, you can top with some coconut fiber or straw for that "Thatch Roof Cottage" look (just keep an eye out for Burninators).

Someone else around here suggests empty halves of coconuts, but since they can't be carried by European Swallows, and African Swallows are non-migratory, you'll have to make do as best you can.

[Kantar]

while we are on the topic of teeny snakes

Northern Redbelly I caught
http://a2.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash2/59944_471542684358_525334358_6597406_1985009_n.jpg

I'd imagine dekayi/brown snakes are much easier to take care of than these

[GaiusIuliusTabernarius]

Well I tossed two snails that I found in her enclosure. I hope she likes them.

[RedSidedSPR]

May be better to take them out of the shell... I don't know anything about feeding snakes snails, but she may go for it easier.

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

is it just me, or is that a gianormous dekayi?!

[GaiusIuliusTabernarius]

Well I read that brown snakes are able to eat them in the wild, so we'll see. since the snails are alive I'm sure they'll migrate to the water dish if she's not hungry. If she doesn't go for them after a while I'll crack the shell.

[GaiusIuliusTabernarius]

is it just me, or is that a gianormous dekayi?!

No she was pretty big. I'd say she's about as long as I remember snakes getting.Though I never knew they were brown snakes. I always thought they were some kind of garter. But then this is the sort of expert analysis that I joined this forum for.

I suppose its not that surprising, my yard is full of snails, slugs, worms, grubs, and plenty of places for snakes to hide. If anything the surprise was how long it took me to find one. As I suspected it happened when I wasn't looking.

As for food, it took me about 3 minutes to find some nice juicy snails for her. I hope she likes them.

Though I did see a ribbon snake once, near the old train tracks, that was the largest snake I've ever seen in the wild. Though those are quite rare where I live. I'm told they used to be more common, my father told me that at one time we had frogs as well as snakes.

[GaiusIuliusTabernarius]

Here's a cheap suggestion for a hide: a small flower pot turned upside down. Like 50c at Wal-Mart. Use a pair of pliers to break a small hole in the rim to serve as a door. If you feel ambitious, you can top with some coconut fiber or straw for that "Thatch Roof Cottage" look (just keep an eye out for Burninators).

Someone else around here suggests empty halves of coconuts, but since they can't be carried by European Swallows, and African Swallows are non-migratory, you'll have to make do as best you can.

I think the paper towel role will suffice for now... just have to look on the bright side... (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WlBiLNN1NhQ)

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

I buy coconuts when they are on special and my dad or brother saws them in half. Then I remove the meat... Snakes love coconut hides!

[GaiusIuliusTabernarius]

I might just do that... I haven't had coconut in a while... perhaps I'll make a curry with it.

[infernalis]

Well I read that brown snakes are able to eat them in the wild, so we'll see. since the snails are alive I'm sure they'll migrate to the water dish if she's not hungry. If she doesn't go for them after a while I'll crack the shell.

DO NOT CRACK THE SHELL!!!!

Dekayi suck the meat out of the shell and if you break it, the snake Will choke.

http://www.thamfriends.com/forum/picture.php?albumid=17&pictureid=861

http://www.thamfriends.com/forum/picture.php?albumid=17&pictureid=862

http://www.thamfriends.com/forum/picture.php?albumid=17&pictureid=863

http://www.thamfriends.com/forum/picture.php?albumid=17&pictureid=864

[brain]

I’ve heard of egg sucking snakes but snails. wow

[snakehill]

Amazing! I think I have a brown snake in my yard! I thought his coloring was different from the normal easterns around here. I usually see him out at dusk although I have not seen him since I picked him up! He was the snake that musked me and when I put him down he was gone!:o

[d_virginiana]

Nice feeding shots, never knew they did that!

[RedSidedSPR]

I've always loved that about little snakes. Watcing them get those snails out is awesome

[GaiusIuliusTabernarius]

DO NOT CRACK THE SHELL!!!!

Dekayi suck the meat out of the shell and if you break it, the snake Will choke.

http://www.thamfriends.com/forum/picture.php?albumid=17&pictureid=861

http://www.thamfriends.com/forum/picture.php?albumid=17&pictureid=862

http://www.thamfriends.com/forum/picture.php?albumid=17&pictureid=863

http://www.thamfriends.com/forum/picture.php?albumid=17&pictureid=864

Yeah that's what I read, I didn't. I just put the two snails in whole, along with a maple leaf for them to eat. I just checked and there is no sign of them... So either they are hiding under the leaf, or Tiamat was especially hungry this morning. Either way when I was working in the yard earlier I found half a dozen more snails and about 4 earth worms. I put them in a bucket with some dirt and leaves and sealed it with a flat piece of plywood with a cinder block on-top. That way I have a stock of snake food. and possibly fish bait...

Are there any types of snails/ slugs I should avoid? I know about the red wrigglers, all my earth worms are the normal brownish gray kind.

[RedSidedSPR]

Any slugs that secrete yellow slime, can choke the snake. The slime hets stuck in the throat I guess. Stay sways from those.

Yellow crap = big no-no

[GaiusIuliusTabernarius]

I'll keep that in mind. Though I only ever see one species of snail and slug. The slugs are big leopard looking types, and the snails have a greenish brownish shell with a light spiral in the middle. I'll get a few pictures the next time I feed her.

[ConcinusMan]

As soon as I heard the description, I was thinking, "probably not a garter" and it's not.

[RedSidedSPR]

He never said it was

[ConcinusMan]

I was moving some logs on the side of my house and I happened across a thin brown garter trying to hide amongst the twigs and leaves.

:cool:

[RedSidedSPR]

Oh, than he edited after I read, because it said "brown snake". And I'm 100% sure.

[ConcinusMan]

I don't think so. That was the first post I quoted.

[GaiusIuliusTabernarius]

As soon as I heard the description, I was thinking, "probably not a garter" and it's not.

Technically no, but its still in the Natricinae subfamily... aside from the one ribbon I saw when I was little, these are the only ones I've seen. I just now got a proper id on it.

Do I not qualify for membership having only a closely related species to the one advertised? I would think not... also I have better pics taken in an attempt to feed her, I'll post them when they finish uploading.

[ConcinusMan]

Membership is not contingent upon owning any animal at all.

[GaiusIuliusTabernarius]

Membership is not contingent upon owning any animal at all.

I was being facetious.

[kibakiba]

You can be a member even if you don't have any!I believe its okay to have anything closely related or close to the care of a garter.

[GaiusIuliusTabernarius]

I can't imagine the distinction is that great. All I have so far is that they are smaller, are brown, and really like mollusks. which is fine, as there are tons of snails in my backyard.

Here is a pic of my snake next to a snail I found... she seemed less interested in the snail and more in facing me down... I moved her into my room next to my desk. I'm hoping close proximity will get her used to me more quickly.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-Xfq9ywsEBDc/Ti84ch4nJuI/AAAAAAAAACQ/GR7dWNVaPh8/s800/P7260010.JPG

[guidofatherof5]

That is one gravid looking dekayi.
Looking ready to pop.;)

[RedSidedSPR]

VERY gravid looking!

[GaiusIuliusTabernarius]

Wow really? Is there anything I should know about brown snake prenatal care?

[ConcinusMan]

IDK, just looks like a threat display to me. You know, how they flatten themselves out to look bigger.

[RedSidedSPR]

Well, you better know how to care for babies, cause they're comin'! (probably :p)

[GaiusIuliusTabernarius]

IDK, just looks like a threat display to me. You know, how they flatten themselves out to look bigger.

Well I have another one, its kind of hard to photograph her without provoking a threat display.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-aY23e-Ht4Po/Ti839VllN7I/AAAAAAAAACM/75aDEHC-M1c/s800/P7260009.JPG

[GaiusIuliusTabernarius]

Well, you better know how to care for babies, cause they're comin'! (probably :p)

From what I've read I either have to find very small worms or slugs, or cut up a large worm into small pieces.

[RedSidedSPR]

Right... I have no idea :D

Richard, that does not look like a threat display...

[kibakiba]

That looks completely gravid, not a threat. I'd feed her soft food, which you are with the snails and worms.

[ConcinusMan]

Maybe gravid, but that snake is definitely purposely flattening itself.

[RedSidedSPR]

Yeah, it is, but look at the tail.

[GaiusIuliusTabernarius]

Well she finally came out of the substrate for a drink and I think she was checking out one of the snails... she curled around it but didn't bite. I guess she just might not be hungry. I'm hoping she'll decided to eat one of them when I'm not awake jumping up every time I hear ruffling to check on her...

About how long should I wait before trying something else? I've got about 4 earth worms in a bucket outside, I left leaves and dirt for them so they should be fine. I could also look for some slugs.

[infernalis]

Any slugs that secrete yellow slime, can choke the snake. The slime hets stuck in the throat I guess. Stay sways from those.

Yellow crap = big no-no


Been there done that, the slugs you need to avoid are the thick orange ones. they will choke your snake.

the snails in my yard look like the ones in the photo I posted, never saw the swirling kind here.

[jitami]

That is one gravid looking dekayi.
Looking ready to pop.;)

That was the first thing I noticed, too. I was going to go back and read to see if she was recently caught. Good luck with your little mama :)

Replied before noticing the comment about a threat display. That did cross my mind and she does appear to be flattening herself, but knowing how thin these guys usually are I would be incredibly surprised if she wasn't gravid.

[GaiusIuliusTabernarius]

Yeah also I think she's starting to feel more at home she finally left the substrait and started using the paper towel hide I put in for her. I wonder if I can't make somekind of clay fake log for her... perhaps with a hole on the top for me to drop earth worms in so she can catch them like she would in the wild. that might get her interested.

[Mommy2many]

My Dekayi doesn't particularly like to be watched while eating. He will come out in the evening, around dusk. If I put worms in at that time, he will go after them but many times, he ducks back into his hide until I move away. Then I sneak back to watch him cause he's so cute. But I have to sneak...

[RedSidedSPR]

They are small snakes, and from my experience, the smaller the snake, the more shy it is. For obvious reasons.

[Mommy2many]

He's funny though. I will put a small bowl of little worms from the garden in the enclosure and tip it on it's side, so he can get to them easily. He will go into the bowl like it's a buffet!

He is also pretty crafty. Sometimes the worms will escape and bury themselves into the wet aspen (thank you Jesse snake). My Dekayi knows they are there and tunnels after them.:D

[kibakiba]

Maybe in a dekayi's case, but Azul is as small as it gets here, and he likes to chase Mama when she's eating and try to steal her food. He's fearless.

[Mommy2many]

I love fearless little snakes! They are so inspiring.

[RedSidedSPR]

I meant small species. If there's a midget radix, that's different than a big ringneck. The radix would be a radix, the ringneck would be really shy.

[kibakiba]

Well northwesterns are tiny snakes ;) They're bold and, well, I've only ad one shy NW. Pumpkin.

[RedSidedSPR]

I love fearless little snakes! They are so inspiring.

I love 'em!! My flame was ridiculous for the first few weeks. He was 6 inches long and would do the cotton mouth display. Nippy like heck.

Now he's very calm and laid back, but if he wants down (from me holding him) he casually turns and lets me know with a bite. He's got a unique personality..

[RedSidedSPR]

Well northwesterns are tiny snakes ;) They're bold and, well, I've only ad one shy NW. Pumpkin.

They're garters, and aren't TINY. I'm talking dekay, ringneck, red belly, those guys.

[Mommy2many]

That's what makes Garters so cool. Personality.

I know, I know, anthropomorphism.:D

[RedSidedSPR]

They do though.

[Mommy2many]

Yuppers.

[RedSidedSPR]

...

[kibakiba]

I personally think it's better to anthropomorphize them than to think that they're stupid eating and pooping machines. Every snake I have is different and everyone that knows my snakes, whether they like snakes or not, can't deny that. But, this is my opinion.

[RedSidedSPR]

I think they think more than some people think. :D

[kibakiba]

Indeed they do. They're smarter than a lot of the people I know.

[Mommy2many]

You think they think more than we think they think?

[kibakiba]

Yep ;)
You can't really tell if they're thinking or if they have feelings, there is no way to read their minds, so you never know. I think they do, though.

[RedSidedSPR]

Well, how else would they all be so different and smart. My anery has learned he can stick to the glue in the corners of the cage, shimmy up there, completely off the ground, and then falls. But he's relentless with it, and knows he's able.

[kibakiba]

The babies can suction cup themselves to the glass if they're slightly damp. Its funny seeing them do it.

[RedSidedSPR]

If my anery did that, he'd know instanty "hmmmmm i must remember this tactic, it could come in handy" and he would. He knows he can do these things. He's a little Houdini.

[GaiusIuliusTabernarius]

I think I've found Tiamat's preferred food. Since she wasn't going after the snails I went and got one of the earth worms I found yesterday out of that bucket... it was huge, fat, and black... The worm was actually about as thick as tiamat, and a quarter as long... I left her alone since she's so shy... and I just checked on her. She's hiding under the substrait where I left the worm, the worm is gone, and there are black stains on the surface... I suppose I'll have to go find more worms for her.

[snakehill]

Great to hear that she is eating!!!:)

[GaiusIuliusTabernarius]

Thanks, now I just have to figure out how often I should feed her. I'm guessing slightly more than normal for the babies... but I don't want to over do it. I fed her a large worm last night, and a tiny one this morning, I think that should do it for a few days.

[snakehill]

I finally got one a few minutes ago! Then 'Poof' he was gone!! I picked him up by the tail and he freaked and by the time I tried to grab him again he had disappeard into the stone wall! Maybe I'm getting to old for this!:mad: