Ribbon Snake won't stop rolling

[New Mutant]

My ribbon snake Luke was getting ready to shed, but seemed to be having problems. After a few hours of him getting nowhere, I looked in and he was just rolling over and over and waving his head around. I took him out, and he didn't run like heck (very unusual for him) and seemed to be barely breathing. I had a small wet towel waiting for him to slither through, but he was too weak and I worried that the rag was too heavy for him, as he is a very tiny snake. I submerged him in warm water and peeled off most of his old skin. He seemed much more lively after that, and even tried to bite me a little. However, this morning he was back to rolling around.

He isn't hiding or showing fear of humans, which makes me think he isn't aware of his surroundings. He spends all his time either rolling uncontrollably or lying on his back. He still has a bit of old skin stuck to his jaw and neck, but I think it's gone beyond just trying to get rid of that. What's wrong with him?!

[RedSidedSPR]

What are you feeding?
I have no idea what's up, but it's not good. Id get that skin off. Damp (warm) cloth works...

[New Mutant]

He's been fed rosy red minnows since he was first caught for the pet shop; since no one seems to know if ribbons can safely eat just minnows, and mine won't eat anything else I've tried, I've been keeping him and his "brother" Percy on them.
Should I just stroke his chin with the cloth?

[Didymus20X6]

Rosie reds are very high in thiaminase. If memory serves, these symptoms sound to me like the onset of Vitamin B deficiency (similar cases have been reported on this forum).

If you have to resort to rosie reds, best to cook them first, as it kills the thiaminase. But all in all, they are not considered a good feeder fish for thamnophis. Try scenting mice or earthworms with the fish and see if they'll take those. Or try feeder guppies; those are safe.

[guidofatherof5]

I hate to say it but it sounds like Thiaminase poisoning. B1 deficiency.
Rolling is a very bad sign.
A Vet. visit is called for but to be honest it's probably too late to treat.
If it is a B1 problem and the evidence certainly leads to that conclusion you should consider ending your snakes suffering.
I'm sorry to say that but that may be the only thing you can do.
Sometimes they will roll with the mouth open and even bite themselves.
This is totally your call as the keeper and not an easy one.
How long has the rolling been going on? Is it continuing?

[drache]

ditto what Steve said
you also need to stop feeding minnows to your other snake
if live fish is all they will take, feed guppies for now, but most ribbon can be switched to f/t rodents with persistence and a few tricks

[brain]

Sad

[New Mutant]

He's been rolling for about 12 hours and is still at it. Could it really be that serious without showing signs before then?

[ConcinusMan]

If it were me, I'd put him down. He's suffering. B1 deficiency often gets the blame but who knows what's really going on. One things for sure, the rolling is most likely because the snake is dying and in agony. I would highly suspect the snake as somehow been poisoned by eating bad fish, B1 deficiency or not. Live minnows are not a good idea long term.

Most any ribbons from pet stores are wild-caught, been through hell, many already died and you're buying the survivors. They don't even bother to deworm them. Who knows what nasty diseases they carry. I wouldn't buy them. At best they are "cut flower" specimens and likely won't live long anyway but if you combine that with improper feeding and husbandry, they're doomed.

I would seriously offer a pet store at least half of my CB concinnus' for free each season if they would pledge to stop this practice and not buy WC collected ribbons/garters. It makes me sick to see thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of them rounded up to wither away and die in pet stores. It's senseless.

[New Mutant]

Yeah, when I bought him he was so thin that his stripes weren't showing, the skin just folded out off him. Do I need to take him to a herp vet or would a normal cat-and-dog vet be all right?

[ConcinusMan]

Personally, I wouldn't bother. I hate to sound negative but it sounds like a lost cause.

[New Mutant]

I mean to put him down.

[d_virginiana]

That's sad. If you can get your snake to a herp vet, do so ASAP; I really don't think a non-exotic vet would be able to do anything except euthanize it if that's what you decide to do. Regardless of whether it's thiaminase poisoning or not, that sounds neurological and not like something the snake is likely to recover from. It's a tough choice, but it may be better to put it down.
It sounds like your snake was already going downhill when you got it, so who knows what happened to it in the petstore and before it got there.

[ConcinusMan]

I mean to put him down.

It's up to you. I just freeze them quickly myself but if you want him to get gassed or lethal injection, the humane society might help you out.

[guidofatherof5]

I mean to put him down.

Difficult but I think you've made a good decision.;)

It would be good to move Percy away from the minnows also.
If you aren't using a supplement I would start. This is the one I use:
Rep-Cal Ultra-Fine Calcium with Vitamin D3 - 4.1oz. (http://www.google.com/products/catalog?rlz=1T4SKPT_enUS421US421&q=rep-cal&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=shop&cid=3817686425388673074&sa=X&ei=_E8jTq9czrbQAdiIkJ8D&ved=0CHgQ8gIwAw)#

I've switched my ribbon over to pinkies with little to no scenting from fish.

[New Mutant]

All the vets are closed because it's Sunday, so my mom is going to refrigerate him while I go on a walk with my sister.
The problem with Percy is that he doesn't seem to use his nose, or tongue, he just looks for motion. I tried using tongs once, but he could tell that the strips of tilipia weren't really alive.

[guidofatherof5]

All the vets are closed because it's Sunday, so my mom is going to refrigerate him while I go on a walk with my sister.
The problem with Percy is that he doesn't seem to use his nose, or tongue, he just looks for motion. I tried using tongs once, but he could tell that the strips of tilipia weren't really alive.

It's amazing how quickly a hungry snake will switch to another food source.
Let Percy get hungry and he'll probably make the switch.
Just an idea.;)

[ConcinusMan]

my mom is going to refrigerate him while I go on a walk with my sister.

An extremely cold freezer capable of completely freezing the snake nearly solid in about 20 minutes is best IMO. It's fast.

[RedSidedSPR]

Yup that's what I thought. Thiamnaise. Sucks.

Good luck, whatever your decision.

[New Mutant]

Luke is gone. This is the fifth pet of mine that had to be put down, given away, or died naturally because of brain problems (severe aggression, brain damage, various psychoses, epilepsy), all of which came from shady pet shops. I got Percy to eat some scented pinkies, but preparing them made me feel like a serial killer. Going to surrender him to an animal rescue organization to be rehomed, I can't go through this again.

[guidofatherof5]

I'm very sorry to here about your troubles.

It sounds like you've gotten some bad advise from people you thought were knowledgeable about garter snakes. It happens.
The forum care sheet is a great place to get the real scoop on garter snake care.
You are also welcome to post any questions you might have.
You have to do what you feel is right but don't kick yourself too hard.;)
Garter Snake Care Sheet - Caresheets (http://www.thamnophis.com/caresheets/index.php?title=Garter_Snake_Care_Sheet)

[kibakiba]

An animal rescue organization might just put him down.

Don't feel bad, it's not your fault. Inexperience doesn't make you a serial killer. You didn't do it on purpose. I know you can take good care of Percy now that you know.

[RedSidedSPR]

Don't feel like it's your fault....

[New Mutant]

Oh, I felt like a serial killer because of the way you have to prepare the pinkies, cutting their faces open and all that. I'm going to donate all of Percy's stuff, like his tank and lamp, maybe even a cash donation, along with him so that he'll have a better chance.

[ConcinusMan]

Luke is gone. This is the fifth pet of mine that had to be put down, given away, or died naturally because of brain problems (severe aggression, brain damage, various psychoses, epilepsy), all of which came from shady pet shops.

And you keep going back for more? :rolleyes: You're better off getting a free snake from one of our members. At least it will be healthy.

[RedSidedSPR]

Oh, I felt like a serial killer because of the way you have to prepare the pinkies, cutting their faces open and all that. I'm going to donate all of Percy's stuff, like his tank and lamp, maybe even a cash donation, along with him so that he'll have a better chance.

If you buy frozen pinkies, you wont have to cut them..... Unless Percy is a baby and is too small for whole mice

[drache]

I am so sorry for your troubles - and angry at your pet shop

I'd like to encourage you to hang on to Percy and give him a better life than what he might find if you surrender him

I'm guessing you got live pinkies, and the only time I ever did that, I thanked the heavens that I did not ever have to do that again - as it turned out, hardly any of my snakes wanted them - not even that difficult eater they were specifically bought for
try some frozen ones - they hardly make you feel any more like a serial killer than the chicken parts at your local meat market
since Percy has already taken rodent once, I doubt that the scenting is going to be needed much longer, and you won't have to handle the rodents that much

you might want to print out a copy of our care sheet and drop a copy off at that evil pet shop - just on the chance that someone there is interested in learning

[Kantar]

don't give up!

Keep percy

When I started keeping garters it was a rocky start. They kept escaping, one died of thiaminese, my cat broke into the tank and ripped 2 snakes apart, I don't have cats anymore. Used a substrate called Eco Earth, a block I put in water and it expands, the bacteria in it killed 2 snakes within a day.

But since then and it has been a couple years now that I haven't had any trouble except for 1 escape that found a home in my laundry basket.

Just don't give up, keeping snakes is such a rewarding experience and they are just so darned cute :D

[Didymus20X6]

I learned everything I know about keeping snakes from this forum. And I haven't had a single one to die on me yet. Little Dude (who was a juvenile when I caught her 2 years ago) is nice, big, and healthy. And Scarlett, my most recent wild caught, is doing well, even if she is very skittish. Some of the things I've learned I had to adjust to suit my wild-caught needs (or more specifically, their unique personalities)

Point is, I came here knowing nothing, and was in fact terrified of snakes, and learned a lot. If I can go from ophidophobe to a garter-keeper in less than two years, then it shouldn't be that hard for you.

[RedSidedSPR]

BRAVO *clap clap* well said. :D Ditto to that!! I vote you keep him!

[Mommy2many]

Me too! Keep Percy and give him a chance for a happy life.

[ConcinusMan]

Wait, did I miss something or did you? I don't know of any snake that rolls nonstop like this, that can be kept because in nearly every case, they're dying.

[RedSidedSPR]

YOU missed something. Were not talking about that snake. His other one. Read back a few pages

[ConcinusMan]

TY

[New Mutant]

You all are right. After my mom said that it would be hard to find a home for a common "garden snake", what with all the other pets available, and that we would probably just be advised to re-release him (which would be illegal since he is a Western Ribbon Snake and not native to the area), I'm going to keep Percy. Also, after a short discussion with my twin about the myriad benefits of feeding the frozen pinkies (no more loose fishy poops, less frequent feeding, and easier cleanup), combined with the fact that he seems to actually prefer them (he will eat them even if they aren't moving), I could easily get used to them. It's just hard because they are so perfectly formed, with their little toes and tails, and my first small pets were mice.

[ConcinusMan]

Try to think of them as little roasted suckling piglets instead. You can put a a cranberry in their mouths instead of an apple. Wait. That probably won't help.

[Kantar]

don't be afraid to ask about everything, what is percy living in right now, what is all in the tank?

[New Mutant]

He's living in a 20-gallon long tank with paper towels for a substrate, driftwood and grape branches (from Petco) and fake plants to climb on, hollowed log halves and a plastic cave for hides, a plastic dog dish for his water, a thermometer on each side of the tank, and a lamp suspended over one side. The cool side is about 83 degrees and the warm side is about 86 degrees, I think. He spends most of his time on the warm side, inside his cave.

[RedSidedSPR]

If you can get the cool side cooler, that would be good. Otherwise it's pretty good. :)

[New Mutant]

If you can get the cool side cooler, that would be good. Otherwise it's pretty good. :)


How would I do that?

[ConcinusMan]

An enclosure that's big enough to achieve that, preferably long. And a focused beam reflective bulb with a ceramic socket and coated reflective hood, like one of these made specifically for such use: Amazon.com: Zoo Med Deluxe Porcelain Clamp Lamp with 5.5-Inch Dome, Black: Kitchen & Dining (http://www.amazon.com/Zoo-Med-Deluxe-Porcelain-5-5-Inch/dp/B0002AQCX2)

Ceramic heat emitters provide a very high intensity focused beam of warmth too but still don't work that way very well without the right fixture.

Your temps sound like a situation that can cause respiratory infections, especially in snakes that don't require or tolerate a lot of heat. They need a temperature gradient much wider than that. Ideally the cool end of a garter enclosure shouldn't exceed 74 degrees and the warm spot should be ideally, 86 to 90. A 15 to 20 degree gradient will allow the snakes to thermoregulate properly and avoid problems that can lead to lowered immunity and stress.

It's really not that hard to do, provided the enclosure is big (long) enough, you use an appropriate heat source that can achieve that, and the room the enclosure in is kept at room temperature, that is 68-72 degrees.

Not so easy when you're house or the room they are in is hot. It really should be in the 70's. If you can't achieve the kind of gradient I was talking about with overhead heat, and the room is mid to upper 70's, then use a reptile heat pad confined to one very small area of the tank that brings the bottom surface temp to 10-15 degrees warmer than the air in the tank.

I don't recommend using bottom heat if the ambient air temperature is very low, like below 70.

If that is case, it should be easy to use overhead heat to warm one side into the 80's without heating the cool end past the 70's.

Either way, heating the entire enclosure like you're doing isn't a good idea. The room is either too hot, you're using the wrong setup for the heating, or the enclosure is too small to heat at all without heating the entire thing.

[New Mutant]

I use a ceramic (I think) reptile lamp, suspended a few inches above the tank. Should I just set the lamp on top of the mesh lid? Should I get a smaller or more focused lamp? I have it set at somewhat of a slant, because it's also his light source. Is it OK for his cool side to be shady? You mention the correct temperature gradients for garter snakes, are they any different for ribbons?

[RedSidedSPR]

Well, if your room temp of the house is in the 70s it won't be hard. I use a normal 60 wat bulb, have it at a slant, and it warms up the right side, but doesn't touch the left.... It's easier with a 20 gal or more.

I don't know about the temperature of ribbons. Never kept one. I'm sure it's about the same...

Cool side can e shady.

What's your houses room temp?

[ConcinusMan]

I use a ceramic (I think) reptile lamp, suspended a few inches above the tank. Should I just set the lamp on top of the mesh lid? Should I get a smaller or more focused lamp? I have it set at somewhat of a slant, because it's also his light source. Is it OK for his cool side to be shady? You mention the correct temperature gradients for garter snakes, are they any different for ribbons?

You should be able to set it directly on the screen. If that produces temperatures that are too high underneath it, then step down to a 40 watt ceramic bulb.

I'm not really sure why you have so little difference between your warm and cold side. :confused: Hard to say without checking out the setup myself. I don't seem to have any problem even in a 10 gallon. I get mid to upper 80's on one side, low 70's on the other. But I use air conditioners in my house and leave the snake room door open. That keeps it about 72 in the room. I use a 40 watt on a 10 gallon tank, and one of those deep dome 5 inch fixtures and I also have an undertank heater below 1 inch of substrate on the same side. I use a 60 watt ceramic or some days a 60 watt flood lamp bulb, on a 20 gallon long tank. In that tank, it can be as low as 70 on the cool side, and sometimes 90 on the warm side.

I just think it's important to have a wide gradient like that because snakes sometimes want to be very warm, other times they like to be cool. If they can't choose, and are forced to be too warm or too cool when they need the opposite, you risk stressing their immune system (particularly if they are constantly too warm) and encouraging RI.

We've all heard about keeping things too cool and/or damp and dirty causing RI. Well, another common cause of RI in garters is a uniformly warm enclosure, such as keeping the entire enclosure in the 80's. Might be fine for a BP, but garters are not tropical species.

[RedSidedSPR]

I think it's because of the light. It's heating up more thatn he means to. His room can't be that hot

[New Mutant]

Yeah, my house should be in the seventies, according to the thermostat, but I have to keep my door shut because my mom's sassy cat likes to sit under the heat lamp. It's really scary walking into my room and seeing an enormous Maine Coon on top of the tank. The mesh of the lid is pretty strong and secure, but I don't want to put it to the Coon test.
Also, I'm a girl. People tend to think I'm a boy in real life too, though.

[Mommy2many]

I would say you are doing OK. My ribbon lived quite comfortably in a 29 gallon tank with 3-4 other snakes. We had no food fights and my ambient temperature here was between 75-85 degrees. Changed depending on the day during the summer months. When I knew it was cooler, I would use the heat lamp. During the warmer periods, I don't. (Like now)

Also, my cats think of my snakes like an ever changing television program. We amusingly call it "kitten TV". They all sit on top of the lids and peer down at my serpents while my serpents peer back up at them. My snakes do not appear to be bothered by them and it does not last all day.

How much does the cat weigh? Does it affect the form of the mesh top? A nice spray bottle of water or "Can O'Air" used for computers usually corrects this issue.:D

My cats spend very little time watching my snakes and frogs, so I don't worry.

[RedSidedSPR]

The temps, being so warm and ambient aren't gonna kill, but they aret really ideal....

[ConcinusMan]

Not saying there's anything toxic going on here, just saying we (you) could do better. That's all.

[RedSidedSPR]

Yeah, my house should be in the seventies,

Than it shouldnt be too hard to keep one side of the cage that.

If the door being closed effects it that much, you could or either move the cage, or... Ya know, open the door :p

[Mommy2many]

Agreed. Things aren't perfect but they aren't bad. We shouldn't stress too much at the setup as it stands right now. Things as always can be improved but may be very difficult to achieve in many climates. The snake will do ok/well in the surroundings it has. Mine have now for the past 2-3 years. My surroundings are not perfect or ideal but are suitable and/or adaptable.

New owners should not be stressed out as to think their snake will perish if the situation/climate/environment is less than ideal. Improvements can be made and have been suggested. If this is in the scope of the caretaker, then they can take the required steps.

Sounds like you are doing very well. Please keep asking questions as they come up and we will all be happy to help you. Good luck!

[RedSidedSPR]

You are doing well. Remember these are garters. Designed to thrive in less-than-ideal conditions.

[Mommy2many]

You are doing well. Remember these are garters. Designed to thrive in less-than-ideal conditions.


Exactly. The garters are very adaptable snakes. They are hardy and thrive in very less than desirable conditions. You have a wondeful snake there. I hope you both do well.

[New Mutant]

Just checked the thermometers, I was way off. The temperature is actually 72 on the cool side and 79-80 on the warm side. Next time I'll actually make sure before I say something.

[RedSidedSPR]

Well, than that's just downright frigging awesome. :p

Now if you want you could make the hot side even warmer... Of that's doesn't effect the cool side.

[kibakiba]

I'd say the cool side is perfect. It doesn't need to go any higher at all.

[RedSidedSPR]

No that what I said. The *HOT* side could be warmer. IF YOU WANT.

[Kantar]

we've been having a heat wave recently, the coolest spot in all of my tanks at least 30 without the humidex. My house ain't that weather proof, yesterday with the outside temperature being 34 and the humidex up to 48 I came home to 8 out of 9 snakes sitting in their water dishes.

[RedSidedSPR]

no idea what you just said... Celsius. :D Now i gotta google for a translater :D...... WHOA that's pretty darn HOT!!

[Kantar]

haha :D

I'm just glad there is some wind today, the 19KPH wind brought in some rain and cooled everything off a bit.. waiting for my big thunderstorm now :D

[RedSidedSPR]

haha :Dthe 19KPH wind

Great now i have to google again:D

[ConcinusMan]

Just checked the thermometers, I was way off. The temperature is actually 72 on the cool side and 79-80 on the warm side. Next time I'll actually make sure before I say something.

Now that sounds great. I go a little bit warmer myself since concinnus' seem to like their temperature body temp at around 86-88 most of the time, but what you just told me is a lot better than what you said before! I do recommend a drop at night though,(turn off heat and you can let it get down to as low as 65) and a day length of around 14 hours. They should thrive.

[RedSidedSPR]

Yeah, like I said, it's better than my temps!!

[kibakiba]

I'm sorry, I meant the hot side, but said the cool side. The hot side is fine and doesn't need to go any higher. That is just my opinion, though.

[New Mutant]

I'm sorry, I meant the hot side, but said the cool side. The hot side is fine and doesn't need to go any higher. That is just my opinion, though.


He spends all his time on the hot side, though. He spends the night in his cave on the warm side, which seems fine, but he doesn't seem to leave it much during the day, either. I thought reptiles were supposed to go back and forth between the two sides? It bothers me because I want to see him, and I spend up to an hour redecorating his entire cage after cleaning and want my efforts to be appreciated :mad: .Maybe I just need to move his cave to the cool side.

He used to come out of the cave (still in the warm spot, but it's a start) and cuddle with Luke under the lamp. It was adorable. Could he be afraid since he doesn't have the bolder snake to protect him anymore? Does he miss his "brother"?

[d_virginiana]

They definitely seem to get bolder when other snakes are around.. Does he have anywhere to hide on the cool side? Try putting some fake plants or something over there and see if he moves about more.

[guidofatherof5]

He spends all his time on the hot side, though. He spends the night in his cave on the warm side, which seems fine, but he doesn't seem to leave it much during the day, either. I thought reptiles were supposed to go back and forth between the two sides? It bothers me because I want to see him, and I spend up to an hour redecorating his entire cage after cleaning and want my efforts to be appreciated :mad: .Maybe I just need to move his cave to the cool side.

He used to come out of the cave (still in the warm spot, but it's a start) and cuddle with Luke under the lamp. It was adorable. Could he be afraid since he doesn't have the bolder snake to protect him anymore? Does he miss his "brother"?

Garter are creatures of habit. Changing things around too much might make them uncomfortable. Small changes are better. I love to watch them checking out a new item I put in.
I doubt he's looking for the bolder snake but I do believe they feel more comfortable in groups.
Leave things alone and see if it gets better.;)

[kibakiba]

People would argue that snakes don't care about the other snakes in the tank. I think they appreciate the company. He's going to need hides in both areas of the tank, they like having a lot of hides. I provide at least 4, they move between those.

[ConcinusMan]

We seek out and appreciate "company" because we are mammals. What motivates us is different from what motivates them. I do not believe that they feel or get the same emotions from having company as we do.

See this post: http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/general-talk/6133-steves-snake-observations-13.html#post169159

There is security in numbers. The individual snake is safer when it is part of a group. His odds of surviving an attack by a predator are better if he is part of a group. In short, he feels safer with the others present. It boils down to the same reason an individual snake would prefer to spend his time in a safe and secure hide, instead of sitting out in the open.

[Kantar]

Is there lots of places to climb? vines throughout the tank?

from what I have seen my WC red sided (spot) that I've had for 3 years is non stop moving around, doesn't really stay in 1 spot, easily the most active snake I have by far. There was a point in time where Spot was alone for about a month or 2, during that time spot wasn't active, he sat in his cave and only had his head peeking out. Spot now lives with 2 other male easterns and is always active now, never hiding except for sleep which seems like he never does.

Is it possible that you can give percy a friend of roughly the same size?

[RedSidedSPR]

My anery red sided was like that too, and when i put my flame in with him, he became the most active snake I've ever seen. I think it helps, even if it's not needed

[New Mutant]

His enclosure is like one continuous hide, with branches and log tunnels and leafy, viny fake plants. I saw him on the cool side this morning, maybe he's just shy and that's why I haven't seen him over there. Besides that, he blends in nicely with his plants.
He had a friend of the same size, but he died just a few days ago (the titular Rolling Ribbon). I'm NOT going back to "Tails and Scales" again, and Petco, from whence I got Percy and which has much healthier animals and conditions, doesn't stock "garter snakes" anymore because it was so hard to place Percy.

[RedSidedSPR]

I wouldn't get live animals from petco either. I'd just stick to breeders if you buy a garter.

You cage sounds fine, so I doubt theres anything wrong.

[ConcinusMan]

doesn't stock "garter snakes" anymore because it was so hard to place Percy.

It's not that so much as it is, if 2/3 of them die within 60 days or so. Its usually not so much that they are hard to place as it is, they can't keep them alive long enough. Hard to place usually isn't much of a deterrent. Not nearly as much as losing most of them in a short time.:cool:

[snakehill]

I would get a Garter from Petco in order to save it!!;)

[kibakiba]

That would encourage them to buy, and end up killing, more.

[snakehill]

True!;)

[d_virginiana]

On the bright side, it's not hard to find breeders on here and elsewhere online that have a lot of babies and are willing to give them up for the cost of shipping to make room for new litters. It wouldn't be too hard to find Percy a new companion fairly cheaply if you wanted to...

I really hate Petsmart/Petco. I'm torn between feeling good about saving Trevor's life and feeling bad about supporting their frog-torturing busines... I'm glad they don't stock garters.

[RedSidedSPR]

I'll say this. Petco is a LOT worse. I've seen them feed crickets to corn snakes, I've seen mites CRAWLING all over the baby monitors (which shouldnt be stocked) balls having the worst possible time shedding, etc.

I think it's so ironic looking at a PetCo sticker on the corn snake cage saying "we put pets first" or whatever, and there are crickets crawling around.

However Persmart (at least mine) does a decent job... Feeds em the right thing etc. They listen to me (sometimes) when I inform them about husbandry.

[Kantar]

or try a WC garter. Most of the time they can be the healthiest and best snakes you could ask for after a little bit of quarintine. I'm sure a garter and ribbon could live together without complications

depends where you are, there are no wild ribbons around my area

[guidofatherof5]

or try a WC garter. Most of the time they can be the healthiest and best snakes you could ask for after a little bit of quarintine.

That's always a good debate:D
In my opinion the healthy scale leans toward the C/B snake.
The wild is very hard on them.
I think genetics plays a big role in what you end up with.
I can see both sides of the argument though.;)
Just my opinion.

[snakehill]

I'll say this. Petco is a LOT worse. I've seen them feed crickets to corn snakes, I've seen mites CRAWLING all over the baby monitors (which shouldnt be stocked) balls having the worst possible time shedding, etc.

I think it's so ironic looking at a PetCo sticker on the corn snake cage saying "we put pets first" or whatever, and there are crickets crawling around.

However Persmart (at least mine) does a decent job... Feeds em the right thing etc. They listen to me (sometimes) when I inform them about husbandry. I prefer PetSmart too!:)

[RedSidedSPR]

I still dont LIKE petsmart, it's just a lot better in comparasin.

[snakehill]

That's what I MEANT! ;)

[RedSidedSPR]

I know.