New snake incoming!

[Bart]

So, my snakemania continues. I just ordered young T. sirtalis sirtalis female, probably 1 month old. As the seller ensures me, she's eating everything. :D Tell me, ladies and gentelmen, what should I expect? Are they jumpy (females!), how big they usually get (I know, 125 cm tops), what is their favourite food, etc, etc.

Let's think about her name... Hmm... Izyda (Isis), how this name sounds to you?

[RdubSnider]

Sounds like a good name. Most are little jumpy that young. They normally calm down. Pretty quick

[Mommy2many]

Good luck!

[guidofatherof5]

Sounds good. Looking forward to some photos.
Once she's settled in.;)

[Bart]

Thank you all! I'm not sure when a snake will arrive. Tommorow she'll be in Poland (the guy I'm getting her from is a Pole, but lives in Germany), so she'll arrive here maybe on friday, but I think I'll have to wait until monday or tuesday, or even more. As always, I can't wait until I get her!! Arrrgh, nightcrawlers, beware!

Kleo will die from happiness. :D

[RedSidedSPR]

They average 3 feet, but can get bigger. The diet is the same... She may be jumpy, but being a female, will very likely calm down.

I like the name.

Good luck with her

[Bart]

Can they eat hoppers? I mean, I saw people feeding them with adult mice, but I'm thinking about problems with fur. Amon is obviously built to eat mice with fur, but garters?

[RdubSnider]

I've never had any problems with mice with hair

[Bart]

Great! So one day she'll share her diet with Amon. I doubt Kleo ever will be big enough to swallow such meal, but I assume, that Izyda won't have any problems with hoppers, when she'll grow up.

[guidofatherof5]

I've never had any problems with mice with hair

Me either, with a little Ranch dressing they slide right down.:D but it was the snakes we were talking about:D

[RedSidedSPR]

Nice, Steve

[RedSidedSPR]

Are you planning on housing her with Kleo? Cause Kleos a ribbon......

[Bart]

I had such idea, I admit. :) Of course not before quarantine. Why, any objections?

[RedSidedSPR]

Well, I didnt know if you can house garters with ribbons... You may be able to though

I don't THINK you need quarantine, if he's CB. especially if she's a baby...

[Bart]

Yeah, but how about Kleo? :P

[RedSidedSPR]

Oh...lol.. She's not CB?

[Bart]

Nope, she's wild caught (Kleo I mean). She looks healthy but who knows...

[RedSidedSPR]

How long have you had her? If it's been a few
Months, that's probably counts as quarantine....

[Bart]

I'm not sure, 2 months? 3 months? :) Happy people do not count time. :) I don't see any parasites on her skin, but how about internal worms?

[RedSidedSPR]

Probably has some worms. Only thing that will fix that is to get her dewormed.

Quarantine is about 4 months. If she's looking healthy she probably is

[Bart]

Again, how should I deworm her?

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

I do have adult garters that take adult mice with no problems. The hair just passes right through. Actually I think the hair acts like fiber and helps them poop regular ;)

[RedSidedSPR]

Again, how should I deworm her?


No idea :D I'm not sure. It comes in some form you have put in the food, so they swallow that when they swallow the food. I'd like to do
It to my snake, but I havent looked into it. I dont know where you can find it....

[kibakiba]

A vet would be your best bet for deworming. I've sure if you did it by yourself, you could make a mistake and harm your snake.

[Bart]

Is there any way, that she doesn't have any worms? Oh yeah, and what worms can actually infect other snakes? I mean, most of parasites need temporal hosts and final hosts. So they shouldn't pass freely between snakes, don't they?

[kibakiba]

Some snakes from the wild don't. But, a vet could tell from the snakes poop.

[RedSidedSPR]

Lots of people do it themselves but yes a vet would be good.

Most WC snakes have 99.9% of something in there. Everything they eat carries it. Theres very little or no chance of a worm-free snake.

[Bart]

Again: what worms can actually infect other snakes? I mean, most of parasites need temporal hosts and final hosts. So they shouldn't pass freely between snakes, don't they?

[RedSidedSPR]

I don't think so... Most don't... I'm no expert, and don't know much about this stuff

[Bart]

So let's wait for real authority opinion. Steve, are you there?

[RedSidedSPR]

"this stuff" meaning worms, and health.

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

I am sure there are all types of worms that can infest snakes... Tapeworms, pinworms, roundworms, hookworms.... Subcutaneous worms that are buried under the skin... you name it, there's probably a species that can infest snakes. And he is right about there being a slim chance of a totally worm free snake. Even in humans, I think it's like 1 in every 3 people has some type of worm living unnoticed in their gut.

[RedSidedSPR]

Thanks for that image. :D

[Bart]

Not in me, honey! Take an earthworm and put it in vodka. See? Problem solved! :D:D:D

But seriously, most of parasites you enumerated NEED a temporal host. So they shouldn't be able to infect other snakes directly.

[RedSidedSPR]

It won't be passed on easily, you're right. But, depeding on what it is, it's possible. I think it may be OK to put them together... although i'm not sure about housing Ribbons with Garters.

[Bart]

Well, according to Steve, it shouldn't be a big problem, if their feeding is monitored...

[RedSidedSPR]

OK.. cool.

[Bart]

But let's put it aside... Do you think something wrong can happen? Let's just chit-chat about this, shall we? What have you in mind?

[RedSidedSPR]

I honestly can't say. I've never considered housing them together, and have never heard of it being done. They are both Thamnophis, but are still different species. If they're the same size, i can't think of anything wrong with it... that doesn't mean there won't be..

[Bart]

Well, Kleo is bigger, at least for some time and I can't imagine she would eat another snake. I'll start to worry, when Isis gets bigger than Kleo. But I heard that only T. vagrans elegans do eat other snakes, so...

[RedSidedSPR]

Mostly only vagrans... some others do. Even the vagrans its not a huge concern, especially with other wanderings of same size.

If She's less than half of her size you don't want to do that yet.

[Stefan-A]

Even the vagrans its not a huge concern, especially with other wanderings of same size.
I have two vagrans here, that would disagree with both statements. Size is not a big concern for them, they'll go after snakes their own size, or larger.

And it is something that shouldn't be taken lightly. At best, you'll end up with one severely injured snake and at worst, two dead ones.

[Bart]

Come on, of course I won't do it until my new baby grows, say, to 40 cm (16 inches). It's no way Kleo would be able to swallow such snake.

[RedSidedSPR]

Definatly something you don't want to take lightly!!! I didn't mean that!! i've heard people say that they've housed tons together and never had problems so i was just saying...

Big no-no though.

And, yeah i didn't think you would, i was just sayin'

[Bart]

Still, we are talking about eastern ribbon and eastern garter... Does anybody heard of problems with mixing up those snakes?

[Bart]

Oh yeah, Stefan - do you think T. elegans vagrans hunt down and eat milk snakes? I mean, milk snakes do eat other snakes, don't they? I think they don't stand a chance, because milk snakes are constrictors. I know it's like who would win, but I'm in the mood. :)

[Stefan-A]

Oh yeah, Stefan - do you think T. elegans vagrans hunt down and eat milk snakes? I mean, milk snakes do eat other snakes, don't they? I think they don't stand a chance, because milk snakes are constrictors. I know it's like who would win, but I'm in the mood. :)
No, I don't think they'd do that. I agree, the constrictor would probably have the upper hand.

[Bart]

Good to know. I hope my new sirtalis won't stare at Amon as potential meal. :)

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

Good to know. I hope my new sirtalis won't stare at Amon as potential meal. :)

But Amon would likely love to make a meal out of your sirtalis :)

[RedSidedSPR]

I'm curious to see if this one stares at Amon too...

[Bart]

Well, african house snakes aren't like milk snakes. They don't eat other reptiles normally. But yeah, Amon looks suspiciously interested at Kleo, so better not checking that out.

As for staring at eachother - I'm sure Kleo will be puzzled, I mean which "TV" program should she watch - Amon's or sirtalis'. :)

[kibakiba]

I keep a 4 year old, 2 year old, 1 year old and 5 babies in the same tank with no problems. I monitor them when they eat and I make sure that no one is trying to grab onto someones food. You have to pay really close attention to them when you do it, but I haven't had any problems at all. It's only my personal experience, though.

[Bart]

Well, Kleo isn't so hasty of getting pinkies, so I think I'll handle with that. I mean, the only thing she strikes at sight are live fish. And she doesn't eat earthworms, so it shouldn't be a problem...

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

Oh silly me, I had concluded that Amon was a milk snake! Well if he is a house snake then yes he is nothing like a milk snake!

[Bart]

Nothing wrong in that, Babe. :)

So, Isis is older than I thought, she's 5 months old. Well, it's fine for me, because she isn't fragile as neborns. Can't wait to see her photos. But the seller's girlfriend claims the snake is very pretty, so I assume she really is a beauty. :D

[RedSidedSPR]

Well, the seller could claim she's purple with 4 eyes, doesnt mean anything :D

Kidding, I'm sure she's a good looking'. I mean, heck, it's a garter snake. :D

[d_virginiana]

Do you know what morph Isis will be yet, or is it going to be a surprise?


Well, the seller could claim she's purple with 4 eyes, doesnt mean anything :D


I saw someone selling a python as "Bright purple with striking gold bands" the other day. I was interested so I clicked the link. It was a nice pretty snake, but if I had describe it I'd have said "Dark brown with lighter brown bands". I had a good laugh at that.

[Bart]

Suprise. :)

[RedSidedSPR]

You mean, you don't even know what you bought :eek: :eek:

Kidding, that's kinda cool

[Bart]

No, it's a blind shoot. I mean I stated exactly what I want (T. sirtalis sirtalis, female, eating frozen pinkies, as young as possible, not biting, calm, born in captivity) but never seen any photos. He has over 50 garters for sale, so he could just take a pic of any snake, but he promised me photos of Isis as soon, as he arrives with her to Poland. I trust the guy, he has good reputation.

[RedSidedSPR]

Cool.

[Bart]

I like suprises. :)

[RedSidedSPR]

Yeah, personally I like seeing the snake first, but this is pretty cool. Is it being shipped across the ocean or something?

[Bart]

No, she's travelling with the seller from another EU district, Germany I mean.

[RedSidedSPR]

Ok, I asked because it's usually an overnight shipping

[Bart]

He's living in Germany, but he's visitng his family in polish district and he's bringing his commisions with him (still, european post offices aren't as quick as they should be, when it comes with live animals).

[RedSidedSPR]

Yeah... Guess i wouldn't know... So it IS in the mail?

[Bart]

No, she's with her former keeper; she'll be send using polish mail courier, when he'll be in Poland.

[RedSidedSPR]

So when is she "due"? You said around Friday... Is that accurate?

[Bart]

Yeah, but I meant friday next week. :)

[RedSidedSPR]

Oh........

[Mrs N1ntndo]

i have housed Eastern Garters with Eastern Ribbons with no problems. At one point (about 10 years ago) I had 5 eastern garters and 4 ribbons all together and they seemed to enjoy it. They would curl up together and sleep. Also u would see them 1 of each twisted together. We had no feeding problems or fighting or anything. They were all in a HUGE tank all together . So this is only my opion about them being together . Good luck and I cant wait to see pics.

[kibakiba]

Well, if they're all the same gender then I don't have a problem, but males and female could cause hybrids. It's not really whether there would be food fights, but hybrids are frowned upon. I know this was 10 years ago, but that's why people keep different species separate unless they're the same gender.

[Mrs N1ntndo]

I understand. I dont have that many any more . Dont have the room. I would love to have more though. The babies that came from the snakes were from ones that were pregnant before I caught them. One of the snakes were named big mama. She was awesome. But i just wanted you to know and thank you for letting me know also that it wasnt a good thing. I didnt know until recently even on how to tell if they were fem or male. I could only tell when they were pregnant. Thank you again.

[Mommy2many]

As far as I know Eastern Garters and Eastern ribbons are ok to house together. Just keep in mind the size.

[RedSidedSPR]

Size and sex.

[Mommy2many]

True.

[RedSidedSPR]

Anyone ever breed a ribbon with a garter?

[guidofatherof5]

That would be Thamnophis to Thamnophis cross-breeding.
I've never heard of it, even by mistake.

[RedSidedSPR]

I know, not saying to do it, just curious if it's ever happened.... Would be interesting to see what came from it

[guidofatherof5]

The purest in me doesn't even care.
No offense.;)

[RedSidedSPR]

I don't want anyone to do it, Didn't mean that

[guidofatherof5]

I don't want anyone to do it, Didn't mean that

Never thought you did.;)

[Bart]

http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/general-talk/8902-isis-diary.html

Link to Izy's diary.

[ConcinusMan]

That would be Thamnophis to Thamnophis cross-breeding.
I've never heard of it, even by mistake.

I think that physical differences might make it impossible. I know that northwesterns cannot breed with T. sirtalis'. It's physically impossible. Not only are the pheromones all wrong for attraction, but the hemipenes won't fit properly.

[kibakiba]

That doesn't stop Snakey. When I kept him with Runt and Snap, he courted Snap all the time. He really loves her.

[d_virginiana]

Houdini once tried to court the curly laurel stick sitting outside Harley's cage 8x In his defense, Harley had been crawling all over it, he's probably a very frustrated guy, and I think he may be nearly blind... He was very cranky after he realized what was actually going on. He'd probably try to mate with another subspecies if he could :p

Do different subspecies ever interbreed in the wild? I know it couldn't happen often or there'd be no distinction between the subspecies.. Just wondering if it had ever been recorded.

[ConcinusMan]

Yes, it has happened. Different subspecies technically are the same species anyway. Such as puget sound garter and Oregon red spotted. They are both T. sirtalis and dang near identical genetically since it hasn't been very long, in geological time, since the two became separated.

But actual crossing of species in the wild happens occasionally. Such as T. marcianus and T. radix. Checkereds and plains garters in particular seem to frequently interbreed with other species of garter snake.

These were bred and born in captivity recently (unintentionally) and are T. sirtalis concinnus X T. marcianus. (Oregon Red Spotted X Checkered) Now that's a true hybrid of two completely different species. That's a bit different than crossing two subspecies.

http://img35.imageshack.us/img35/6325/57865623074ec2f1692dbla.jpg

As you can see, there's really no reason to cross garters. I'm against it. There's just enough beautiful garters out there that are pure, especially when you consider all the different mutations and morphs out there. There's no reason to believe anything spectacular or desirable can come from crossing them. Indeed, nothing great has ever come of it.

[d_virginiana]

Yes, cute babies, but no more so than any other garters. I agree, there's really no reason to cross-breed them; in fact, it seems like that would make it harder to get some of the really distinct, astounding morphs that lots of people really seem to like? A bit counterproductive...

[kibakiba]

Those were an accident, not on purpose. But they are so adorable. I want one of them. ;)