Bad Match Breeding

[guidofatherof5]

A couple years ago I was given the opportunity to adopt 3 Checkered Garter snakes(T. marcianus) 1-adult albino female, 2-males(1 albino and 1 albino het. normal)
Since the adoption 2 litters of snakes have been born with the normal/het being the male.
Both groups of babies have struggled from birth and I've lost many(75%) of them to failure to thrive.
I think I will be removing the normal het. male from the enclosure. Not sure their will be anymore breeding as the albino male has never shown any interest.
Does it sound like I have enough evidence to call this a bad match?

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

are these the ones that produced bumblebee and the other pastels? I have had similar experiences with certain groups of checkereds and and I split mine up so that the ones that I have now are all unrelated. I think that the albino checkered line is so heavily inbred that this is becoming too common of an occurrence. The marcianus currently in captivity really need some fresh genes injected. They are supposed to have large, robust, thriving litters and lately, we are seeing more and more of them having just a couple babies. It does look like my amel female is gravid, she is quite a robust snakes, we will see how that goes! I have a lot of friends at the local shows who many of them have a few checkereds, and even from them I am getting reports that the clutches are small. I just know it's from the albinos not being outcrossed. People buy a pair of babies because they are cheap, then grow them up and breed them like rabbits, and the process just keeps getting repeated.

[guidofatherof5]

are these the ones that produced bumblebee and the other pastels?

Yes they are. I can't say I have a great eater in the two litters. They also have trouble with their sheds most of the time. Most were very slow to switch to worms and still give me fits at feeding time. I never know when one will go off food for good.
The only saving grace might be the fact I have a unrelated male that should be at breeding age next year.

[infernalis]

are these the ones that produced bumblebee and the other pastels? I have had similar experiences with certain groups of checkereds and and I split mine up so that the ones that I have now are all unrelated. I think that the albino checkered line is so heavily inbred that this is becoming too common of an occurrence. The marcianus currently in captivity really need some fresh genes injected. They are supposed to have large, robust, thriving litters and lately, we are seeing more and more of them having just a couple babies. It does look like my amel female is gravid, she is quite a robust snakes, we will see how that goes! I have a lot of friends at the local shows who many of them have a few checkereds, and even from them I am getting reports that the clutches are small. I just know it's from the albinos not being outcrossed. People buy a pair of babies because they are cheap, then grow them up and breed them like rabbits, and the process just keeps getting repeated.


I see what you are describing happening to other morphs as well.

A typical scenario... Person "A" will buy a "pair" from a breeder, this "pair" is often siblings. Then person "A" will raise the pair up and breed them, along comes person "B" and purchases a "pair from person "A" raises them up and breeds them, the process repeats and suddenly we have a bunch of bug eyed morphs circulating.

One has to remember that many of those morphs are already F2+ at the time of initial purchase, After all if one wants to ensure maximum (as an example) Snows in a litter it's an easy way out to breed snows to snows.

If you want a "clean" snow then you would breed an Anery to an albino, the resulting litter will produce "minimal" snows, but they will be clean.

That would be fine if you could ask $1000 each for the one or two snows produced, but the reality of it is that no one will pay that price, so the next easier step would be to pair up 2 snows and produce many, then sell them at $100 each. the trend continues...

[d_virginiana]

I've been wondering what the general ideas on sibling/sibling or sibling/parent pairings for garters were. I mean, I know they do stuff like that to purebred dogs, but on the flipside that's why those dogs have so many health issues..
So, is it acceptable to do that as long as someone doesn't do it continually and makes sure to bring in fresh genes fairly often, or is it just a bad idea in general?
Just curious. That's not even an option for me since mine are at least a year away from breeding and totally unrelated, but it's an interesting topic. :)

[RedSidedSPR]

It is, and I dont think anythings wrong with it... Id like to know too

[infernalis]

It's not too bad for a couple generations, but when it happens over and over it begins to produce animals with defects that are undesirable.

and for the record.. Albinism is considered to be a defect by many. It is an inability to produce melanin.

[RedSidedSPR]

Then why do so many strive to make them?

[infernalis]

Then why do so many strive to make them?

Mankind's desire to posses the unusual.

As long as there are buyers, breeders will produce.

[RedSidedSPR]

Yeah...
It's weird. Its, with everything, "the morph". Most common. People who know nothing about that stuff know what an albino is. Yet, it's a defect. Seems weird.

Although, wouldn't that make melanistics and stuff defects too?

[ssssnakeluvr]

Although, wouldn't that make melanistics and stuff defects too?

melanism isn't necessarily a defect, its a bit advantageous due to being able to absorb sunlight faster and warm the snake up quicker

[Stefan-A]

melanism isn't necessarily a defect, its a bit advantageous due to being able to absorb sunlight faster and warm the snake up quicker
On the other hand, birds spot melanistic individuals easier, so it's both a drawback and an advantage.

[RedSidedSPR]

Not as easily as albinos. I can't imagine an albino lives very long in the wild..

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

Yeah...
It's weird. Its, with everything, "the morph". Most common. People who know nothing about that stuff know what an albino is. Yet, it's a defect. Seems weird.

Although, wouldn't that make melanistics and stuff defects too?

I wouldn't consider melanism a defect, wild populations of melanistic animals exist and thrive. Not the case with amels! But melanism is a genetic mutation, just as albinism is. I Personally prefer normal animals to albinos... Albino animals are not as pretty IMO. Albinos cant see as well either because light coming in from all sides of their head with no melanin to block and regulate it will not allOw the eyes to function as they should

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

Not as easily as albinos. I can't imagine an albino lives very long in the wild..

A lot of them don't and majority found are young still, but adult animals of albino, leucistic, white sided and more have all been found.

[d_virginiana]

Might make them easier for birds to spot, but there's also plenty of snake species that are black so I wouldn't think it'd make too much of a difference...

[RedSidedSPR]

[QUOTE=aSnakeLovinBabe;I Personally prefer normal animals to albinos... Albino animals are not as pretty IMO. Albinos cant see as well either because light coming in from all sides of their head with no melanin to block and regulate it will not allOw the eyes to function as they should[/QUOTE]

Me too. I never really plan on getting one. I've always found them somewhat... unattractive... I mean, theyre cool, heck it's a garter snake, you can't not like it. But when I'm flipping through morphs, I see albino/snow, I think "eh... Next!"

[d_virginiana]

I like albinos and snows, and I think it'd be nice to have one some day, but I really prefer the more reddish colors like erythristics that can actually be found some places in nature.

[RdubSnider]

I've had great results with my albino checkereds. Normally mine eat chopped unscented pinky parts from birth and to date I've never had any jelly beans, kinked or still borns or any that died after birth while in my care from. However my pair is about 8 years old so there's a better chance mine aren't heavily inbred.
personally I love albinos snows ery, s ect. But that's not to say I like them more than the normals. I feel at f2 definitely not past f3 they should be outcrossed

[RedSidedSPR]

I like albinos and snows, and I think it'd be nice to have one some day, but I really prefer the more reddish colors like erythristics that can actually be found some places in nature.

What and albinos can't?

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

What and albinos can't?

What was meant was that there are wild populations present that thrive. This is the case with many types of morph animals, melanistics, anery's, erythristics, axanthics, even hypo's and more all can be found in isolated pockets, sometimes to such an extent that they are the dominant form of the species present. Such is not the case with the albinos and leucistics.

[Stefan-A]

Might make them easier for birds to spot, but there's also plenty of snake species that are black so I wouldn't think it'd make too much of a difference...
Yeah. Usually venomous snakes, burrowing snakes and snakes that are too big for most raptors. And despite the "advantage", most species aren't black.

[infernalis]

We have a large population of albino deer nearby, I saw a big white buck last year, absolutely stunning.

Sorry about deviating slightly, but it seemed appropriate since this group of albino animals thrives.

However this was the result of our government fencing in a 10K acre parcel of land, the deer herd inbreeding was inevitable.

[infernalis]

Believe it or not, black is an excellent camouflage, heck most Thamnophis have huge amounts of black as the top side colour.

Sight depends on reflected light, black absorbs light.

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

We have a large population of albino deer nearby, I saw a big white buck last year, absolutely stunning.

Sorry about deviating slightly, but it seemed appropriate since this group of albino animals thrives.

However this was the result of our government fencing in a 10K acre parcel of land, the deer herd inbreeding was inevitable.

I have seen this before... we actually have some pied deer here, but deer are a little different because they are larger, they do have many predators, but not nearly as many as a tiny white snakes. Heck, even a blue jay will snack on that!

[RedSidedSPR]

Albino deer... never seen one of them before...

[infernalis]

I have seen this before... we actually have some pied deer here, but deer are a little different because they are larger, they do have many predators, but not nearly as many as a tiny white snakes. Heck, even a blue jay will snack on that!

At least on the bright side, we prize LIVING albino snakes, hunters prize DEAD albino mounts.

[Stefan-A]

Believe it or not, black is an excellent camouflage, heck most Thamnophis have huge amounts of black as the top side colour.

Sight depends on reflected light, black absorbs light.
It's actually not camouflage at all. Hence the stripe. And the other patterns.

Whatever the eye sees, it's the brain that interprets what it sees. A perfectly black object may technically be invisible in that it reflects no light, but the brain has no problem finding it.

[infernalis]

It's actually not camouflage at all. Hence the stripe. And the other patterns.

Whatever the eye sees, it's the brain that interprets what it sees. A perfectly black object may technically be invisible in that it reflects no light, but the brain has no problem finding it.

Thanks. That's what I meant about always enjoying your posts.

On the subject of camouflage it is strange how a bright red and turquoise snake blends in with vegetation.

[kibakiba]

Garters here are usually very dark with little colouring, and when they slither in dry grass it is almost impossible to see them.

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

the garters I usually catch are the ones that are moving. I usually find garters by sound.

[RedSidedSPR]

i don't catch garters... EVER, i've only found two my whole life...

But i know what you mean about the sound. That's often how i notice them.

[kibakiba]

I notice them with my eyes, I can't hear very well in the one ear that is almost always facing the snake... :rolleyes:

[ConcinusMan]

the garters I usually catch are the ones that are moving. I usually find garters by sound.

Same here. Even if I was completely blind, listening is still the better way to locate a healthy garter in the wild. They will see you before you see them, and be on the move immediately. The harder to catch, the better. If the snake is all out in the open, slow and sluggish, and hasn't just obviously swallowed something large, then something else is wrong.

Remember, the natural way of things is that predators (when herping, that's you) pick off the sick, slow, weakened, or otherwise disadvantaged. A snake that is fast, vigorous, sees you first and flees, and is otherwise hard to catch, is usually in good health.

That sound of a snake moving when it spots you, is as, if not more important than those you see first. My eyes are only secondary when herping for snakes that are active during the day. Sound comes first. It tells me which direction to look.:cool:

[RedSidedSPR]

Well, some snakes sit there hoping you don't see them. Ive found many a snake "kinked" in front of me, not moving until I lean over.

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

Well, some snakes sit there hoping you don't see them. Ive found many a snake "kinked" in front of me, not moving until I lean over.

Yes they do, but the majority of them book it. I usually spot the ones that are lying still, but the majority of them don't hold out.

[RedSidedSPR]

Well, yeah, but i've never seen a rat snake book it. They are the easiest to catch, cause they sit there for ya

[infernalis]

I have sheets of plywood on the ground, half the time the snakes under it bolt so fast I can't even bend over fast enough to grab them or even get a clean photo.

[RedSidedSPR]

I do to, but mostly the sit there... I have a bored population:D

[ConcinusMan]

Well it is a balancing game. Do I sit and hope no predator (you) sees me or do I make a run for it and blow my cover?

You'll find that the choice a snake makes will vary depending on location, and temperature of the snake/conditions. ;)

Wayne says his wild snakes are "bored" but what happens also depends on numbers. A big cluster of snakes all together and below optimum temperature will make all of them more reluctant to flee. The one that flees from such a situation might be the first and perhaps the only one to get "picked off".

Any snake that is well below optimal "fleeing" temperature or too far from the nearest "for sure" cover, may opt to sit still, even for photos, (haha, better than sitting still to become a meal) and be very reluctant to flee for cover.

Again, it's all dependent on temperature and conditions. Location because what threats are present at that location will vary too. Just like the Galopagos island birds will just come and land on you. They don't see you as a significant threat. Not so in other locations.

[d_virginiana]

We have a large population of water snakes since we live near a creek, and it's very easy to get close or even touch them even though they're healthy. There are lots of gigantic rocks (I mean like, hundreds of pounds) that are wedged up about three or four inches off the ground by other rocks. The snakes are always near easy cover and a great basking spot, so I think this makes them bolder than they'd normally be. It's a really unique little area, though it's a little less fun when the copperheads decide they're going to sit there and be just as bold...
But mostly, the snakes around here just run. My dog will chase them to cover somewhere and I can catch them then. Not a lot of garters in this area though... :(

[infernalis]

I do to, but mostly the sit there... I have a bored population:D


Wayne says his wild snakes are "bored" .


????????????

[kibakiba]

Snakes here will coil up and put their tails over their heads if they see you, but if you get too close they'll make a run for it.

[d_virginiana]

I like the ones that rattle their tails at you before running. It's usually rat snakes that I've seen do that. I wonder if they're trying to imitate rattlers or just attract your attention away from their front ends?

[kibakiba]

Ember and Squirt would do the coil with the tail over their heads and Ember will rattle his tail around. He also whips you with his tail as he's fleeing. He makes a big show out of water changing time. Haha

[RedSidedSPR]

I like the ones that rattle their tails at you before running. It's usually rat snakes that I've seen do that. I wonder if they're trying to imitate rattlers or just attract your attention away from their front ends?

I've seen racers do that... Not rat snakes though... Man when they do that, you know it's gonna hurt whenyou grab him :D

[ConcinusMan]

????????????

Ooops:cool:

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

I've seen racers do that... Not rat snakes though... Man when they do that, you know it's gonna hurt whenyou grab him :D

pretty much every species of rat snake I have ever kept does the tail rattling. Even the asian king rats. I believe it's actually a defense mechanism common among many snakes from all over, but the rattle snake took it to the next level. It's not that snakes are trying to mimic the rattle snake, it's that a lot of snakes have always done the tail rattling and the rattlesnake took it a step further.

[RedSidedSPR]

Interesting.......

[ConcinusMan]

pretty much every species of rat snake I have ever kept does the tail rattling.

Want to hear something even more interesting? Yellow bellied racers do that from Southern Oregon into CA but only where rattlesnakes also occur. They will often not flee but instead will sit in dry brush and rattle their tails. They do not rattle their tails here in the northwest where rattlesnakes do not also occur, instead preferring to flee rather than stand their ground. Same snake, but different behavior depending on where they are. Now that on the surface seems to support a mimicry theory.

It's either that or the snakes simply evolved the behavior and of course, it was only an advantage where rattlesnakes also occur. Tail rattling was not an advantage where rattlesnakes do not occur, and so they simply dropped the behavior or never developed it in the first place.:confused:

In those areas where racers, fence lizards, and rattlesnakes occur, I've seen yellow bellied racers twitch their tails while sitting still, to attract lizards to come closer.:eek: In those areas the racers feed almost exclusively on lizards. Here in western WA/OR, they feed mainly on small rodents such as shrews and voles and the very young snakes even eat locusts/grasshoppers.

[RedSidedSPR]

hmmm...

[d_virginiana]

That's really neat! We have a similar thing here in coastal areas. Kingsnakes around the coast that have coloration similar to that of coral snakes are a lot bolder in coral territory than they are inland where coral snakes can't be found. An experiment was done a while back, using scented, plastic king-snakes in and out of coral snake range, and they found that while the control brownish colored kingsnakes consistently had bite marks from bears, raccoons, and raptors, not a single coral-snake mimic had been bitten. Both were attacked at equal rates outside of coral snake range. If you're lucky enough to run up on a kingsnake in the right area, they'll just sit there and stare you down, since no natural predator is willing to go near them afraid that they're coral snakes.

[RedSidedSPR]

hmmm...

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

Want to hear something even more interesting? Yellow bellied racers do that from Southern Oregon into CA but only where rattlesnakes also occur. They will often not flee but instead will sit in dry brush and rattle their tails. They do not rattle their tails here in the northwest where rattlesnakes do not also occur, instead preferring to flee rather than stand their ground. Same snake, but different behavior depending on where they are. Now that on the surface seems to support a mimicry theory.

It's either that or the snakes simply evolved the behavior and of course, it was only an advantage where rattlesnakes also occur. Tail rattling was not an advantage where rattlesnakes do not occur, and so they simply dropped the behavior or never developed it in the first place.:confused:

In those areas where racers, fence lizards, and rattlesnakes occur, I've seen yellow bellied racers twitch their tails while sitting still, to attract lizards to come closer.:eek: In those areas the racers feed almost exclusively on lizards. Here in western WA/OR, they feed mainly on small rodents such as shrews and voles and the very young snakes even eat locusts/grasshoppers.

It's actually an advantage anywhere... snakes from all over the world do the tail rattling specifically when agitated or threatened. Especially my chinese king rats, and those guys are from china where there are no rattlesnakes to be found. Defensive rattling is something that intimidates a predator even in snakes without a rattle because the snakes purposely slap it against something to make sounds. When my king rats do it, I often get a look of surprise from people who are new to the snakeroom and are nervous about the sound it makes. Snakes using their tails as lures is not uncommon, baby copperheads are born with yellow tails just for this purpose, and the mangshan viper keeps a glow-in-the-dark colored tail it's whole life! (it doesnt actually glow but it looks like it would) Also, females will slap their tails around, especially garters I noticed, when being courted by a male. I have also seen garters do this when introduced to an unfamiliar food item, or to a new snakes they have not met before and are unsure about.

if you want to see a REALLY cool tail luring species, check out Pseudocerastes urarachnoides. Search it on youtube and watch the first video. They literally have a centipede for a tail!

[RedSidedSPR]

Whoa... Weird :D

I've noticed a few snakes sweep their tail back and forth, along the ground, mostly in a "defense"....

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

think about it like this... if you are a snake... you have no arms or legs to wave and you cant make any noises really... so they use the only thing they have... their tail!

[RedSidedSPR]

Yup. There's not much else...

[ConcinusMan]

Now we're way off topic. Have been for a while. Where is Drache to point it out as glaring flaw, and Mommy2many to back her up with her dedicated "well said" and "I agree" :cool:

[Mommy2many]

Get back on the right thread.

[drache]

Now we're way off topic. Have been for a while. Where is Drache to point it out as glaring flaw, and Mommy2many to back her up with her dedicated "well said" and "I agree" :cool:
you really need us for that?
just that first sentence would have done it without the invocation of mom figures

[Stefan-A]

It's actually an advantage anywhere... snakes from all over the world do the tail rattling specifically when agitated or threatened.
Conclusion: Tail rattling is much older than the rattle.

[ConcinusMan]

Well I still find it significant that racers don't do that in western WA and OR, but in drier climates farther south such as the mountains of NE CA, (Lassen National Forest) and where there are also rattlesnakes, they do. Coincidence? perhaps, but even if it is coincidence, there must be some reason for it.

[brain]

We have a large population of albino deer nearby, I saw a big white buck last year, absolutely stunning.

Sorry about deviating slightly, but it seemed appropriate since this group of albino animals thrives.

However this was the result of our government fencing in a 10K acre parcel of land, the deer herd inbreeding was inevitable.

Sorry, for going off track here I was reviewing the past posts. We have an albino buck out here on the central part of the island and well he is something to look at.

Nevertheless, back to the thread. This discussion only strengthens my love for the normal garter and not the morphs. Yea cool but, “I see albino/snow, I think "eh... Next!"

I can find plenty of natural occurring colors for garters, CB and WC.

[RedSidedSPR]

Albinos -- a not-to-attractive defect.

[RicMartin]

When snakes move, their pattern colors blend in a way that produces a different effect than the pattern on a still snake. I think this creates both a fuzzing of the snake & a visual op-art kind of effect that mesmerizes the onlookers for the split second that it takes the snake to vanish, as if Scotty beamed them up.

I think albino snakes thrive in the habitat their beauty has created in the homes of most breeders. I believe we humans are part of nature, not apart from it, but I don't have any book with all the answers, so I can be wrong.

Is albino a defect? I think that depends on who's doing the judging, & where the snake is. Melanin is important in some places, like high mountains, or the tropics, not so much in others. IMHO, captive bred pet snakes don't need it.

[RedSidedSPR]

Well, then theres the eyesight, and the other health problems, but I do agree with what you said. And I realize they are less of a defect then I thought.

[guidofatherof5]

I had to put the last pastel baby down yesterday. She has been having movement issues for the last month.
Not much eating or tongue flicking and most recently I found her on her back a few times.

There are 4 young snakes left out of two breedings. I think two more of these snakes are at risk.
Slow to no growth and sporadic eating habits. I feel very sorry for these young snakes.

[EasternGirl]

I'm so sorry to hear that Steve. I am wondering what kind of shedding problems Hermes will have being an albino checkered.

[guidofatherof5]

Hermes may have none.
Think positive. ;)

[chris-uk]

Sorry to hear that Steve, it makes for a bad day when you find yourself having to make that sort of decision.

Marnie - Hermes will probably be fine, Binky has shown no problems with any of her sheds. We've had more problems with a normal checkered than Binky. Albinos may be a greater risk for problems than non-morphs, but at the same time they can be perfectly healthy.

[ConcinusMan]

We've had more problems with a normal checkered than Binky. Albinos may be a greater risk for problems than non-morphs, but at the same time they can be perfectly healthy.

I think that there is a higher risk of problems alright, but not necessarily just because they're albino. What's more problematic is the bad breeding practices done to produce them. Especially true of checkered's.

[gregmonsta]

Checkereds have seemed to have suffered more than most. I remember Lulu having great problems getting a clutch of albino babies to thrive.

[EasternGirl]

Well...I'm keeping my fingers crossed. Again...so sorry about what happened Steve.

[infernalis]

Checkereds have seemed to have suffered more than most. I remember Lulu having great problems getting a clutch of albino babies to thrive.

I have heard it said on this forum once "Albino Checkereds" are the most heavily inbred garter morph on the market"

[chris-uk]

I think that there is a higher risk of problems alright, but not necessarily just because they're albino. What's more problematic is the bad breeding practices done to produce them. Especially true of checkered's.
Spot on there. I wouldn't expect a first generation albino to be any worse health-wise than a natural coloured sibling. It's the other recessive bad genes that come out in subsequent generations when breeders are chasing the albino mutation. Our Binky will never breed.

[infernalis]

I have several snakes here that will never be allowed to breed.

Some of my albinos and snows have bug eye syndrome, one was born without a tail, etc.

I quit collecting morphs about a year ago, would much rather have healthy animals.

[ConcinusMan]

Luckily I didn't see any of that with the snow radixes I got from Julio. They were perfect and healthy. They seemed just as vigorous as any normal radix. Still, a lot of radix albinos/snows are definitely now showing some of the same problems (inbreeding depression) that plague checkereds.

[guidofatherof5]

Guess I should update this thread. No good news to be had.
Lost 2 more from the two groups. That leaves only 2 snakes alive from the births.
Terrible numbers.
The 2 that are left seem normal but I just don't know what to expect.

[EasternGirl]

That's really a shame...sorry to hear that. I am hoping the best for you with the two that are left.

[chris-uk]

I think your earlier thoughts of ensuring that these don't breed is a sound action. It may be a genetic problem with the het male (he sired both litters didn't he?).
If the albino male is unrelated he may be a better bet, although I wouldn't hold my breath.
Of course, it could be the female that carries the problem. I think either way, I wouldn't give either of these two the chance to breed again.

[Mommy2many]

Sorry to hear about the babies, Steve.

[guidofatherof5]

Yesterday, I had 3 T.marcianus - Checkered Garter born on the Ranch. Under normal circumstances this would be cause for celebration but in this case it isn't.
2 albinos and 1 het.
1 albino and the het. both have bug eyes. Not the severe cases but still not normal. They were born to my normal het. female(this her first litter).
All 3 seem to be behaving normally. Time will tell if they fade out like all the other T.marcianus scrubs born here.
On a scale of 1 - 10,. 10 being the best I would say I've been at a 1 with the last 3 birthings.
I will no longer breed T.marcianus on the Ranch. It's best to not put these little through this.:(

[ConcinusMan]

Sounds like you got bad genetics from bad breeders. A friend of mine keeps having terrible luck with ones she gets from shows too. But one i got for her from Julio did great and is huge now. In fact all snows radixes and albino checkereds I got from Julio are some darn fine animals. No inbreeding associated issues. No issues at all. I've had them from other people and they just failed to thrive, had shedding issues, wouldn't grow well, etc.

Don't give up on the species. Just don't breed the ones you have. I suggest you get them from reputable breeders who outcross and get some WC too and cross those into the lines. The problems won't be there. Albino red sided have the same problems. That's why I'm thrilled to get some of yours.

[guidofatherof5]

Just giving up for now.

[ConcinusMan]

Well it's not like there's a shortage or anything.

[guidofatherof5]

If these babies start to get balloon eyes I will put them down. I hate having to do it but I think it's best all the way around.

[chris-uk]

I have a bug-eyed marcianus watching me at the moment. It's one of the two rescues that came to me via Greg (and it's the same one that bit me a couple of months back). I don't know whether the bug-eyes has anything to do with the bad attitude, or if the mental attitude was conditioned into them by the previous owner. If the bug-eyes are a marker for mental problems I wouldn't want to keep babies that would turn out like these two.

[ConcinusMan]

Neurological problems are one of the things that can happen with inbreeding depression, along with bug eyes, poor fertility, and other congenital defects/reproductive problems. It is plausible this could affect disposition and intelligence.