Brown Snake/DeKay Help with Feeding [Archive]

MorpheusMom

07-09-2011, 01:23 PM

Hi everyone! I'm new to this forum, so I hope you can help me. I found a brown snake (DeKay) a week ago and I have not had any luck feeding him. I currently have him in a 10 gallon tank with Aspen shavings (which he LOVES to hide under and peek his little head out of), some places to hide and climb, and of course, a water bowl. Temperature is not regulated currently, but it's summer and pretty warm here. Humidity in the tank is between 60 and 85 (variable). He is so sweet! Very calm, seems to like being handled and I have yet to see him nervous or "spazzed out." I just can't get him to eat. I've tried earthworms, wax worms, meal worms and small slugs (found in a pesticide-free garden). I've mostly tried feeding him outside of the tank (as I don't want him to accidentally ingest the aspen shavings), but he doesn't really like to be in a separate container (currently either a large jar or small shoebox). I'm open to any suggestions, ideas, tips, etc. on how to get him to eat (or maybe I shouldn't worry about it yet?). I will absolutely let him go back to the wild if he won't eat soon, but I think he likes his new home (maybe I'm projecting?). I'd love tips not just on diet, but also where/how to feed him. Any tips appreciated!

Ironpriest88

07-11-2011, 06:32 PM

You could try putting the food in a small dish inside the tank. I tend to do that with my female dekay. Earthworms and slugs are the main staple of their diet (or only rather). If using worms (which I prefer) cut up the worm into 3 or 4 pieces so it doesn't crawl out of the container.

If the snake isn't used to eating worms, it won't go for it so you'll have to start with slugs and then work into feeding worms. If he doesn't eat, wait 2 or 3 days and then try again, just plop a container with worms/ slugs in and leave him be, if anything cover the container a bit so it's hidden. And if you are worried about the aspen shavings, what I tend to do is clear it away from the feeding dish a little.

guidofatherof5

07-11-2011, 07:03 PM

Welcome to the forum. Storeria dekayi are an awesome snake.
Give the snake a little more time to settle in. A week without food isn't that long.
Rafael has given you some good advice.
I'm sure I speak for everyone when I say we would love to see a photo.
You should also keep in mind that some snakes don't take to captivity and that for some being released back into the wild is best for them;)
Just something to think about.
Best of luck with your new friend.
Species Profile: Brown Snake (Storeria dekayi) | SREL Herpetology (http://www.uga.edu/srelherp/snakes/stodek.htm)

Odie

07-11-2011, 10:36 PM

Hi, from Oregon, MorpheusMom :)

infernalis

07-12-2011, 06:06 AM

I have worked with a lot of these, and maybe you have a shy eater.

For a shy eater you may have to feed inside the same enclosure that the snake lives in. I have a nice female right now that will only eat if I offer her the worms without touching her, meaning I have to give her the worms inside her home enclosure, If I pick her up and put her in a feeding box, she refuses to eat.

guidofatherof5

07-12-2011, 07:11 AM

Thanks Wayne.
I was hoping you'd jump in on this thread, since you are very well versed in the art of the dekayi.;)

MorpheusMom

07-12-2011, 08:31 AM

Thanks everyone for the great advice! I like the idea of putting in a dish with some cover for him - I will definitely try this and let you know. He still hasn't eaten, but I haven't offered him anything for 2 days - I thought I'd let him relax for a while and try again today or tomorrow. I will also get a picture and post soon. I think he is really enjoying his terrarium - he's been burrowing under the shavings and hides his whole body, except for his little head peeking out, tongue flickering. Today, I found him climbing over the driftwood "climber" I put in there for him and when I approached the tank to say hi, he actually came closer to where I was as if to say "hi" back. I agree that if he doesn't take to captivity, I will absolutely release him, but I'm really hoping he eats because I'm getting pretty attached! ;-) Thanks all and I will report back soon (with a picture!).

Plissken

07-12-2011, 12:20 PM

Maybe dekayi's are exceptions, but aren't wax and meal worms also a no-no for a snake diet?

RedSidedSPR

07-12-2011, 12:48 PM

Yes

infernalis

07-12-2011, 02:43 PM

Maybe dekayi's are exceptions, but aren't wax and meal worms also a no-no for a snake diet?

Correct, they are insect larvae.

Mommy2many

07-12-2011, 06:15 PM

Welcome! I too have a Dekayi and it took him quite a while before I actually "saw" him eat anything. Give him some time. Good Luck!

Eliza311

10-24-2012, 04:40 PM

Hi,
6 Days ago I found a little snake, and obviously decided to keep him. Ive been reading everything I can find to get acquainted with the proper care, and have read all of the comments on this thread. I'm fairly sure he is a dekay snake, and have been feeding him worms. I dont know what the temperature of the tank is, i keep the light on during the day and turn it off at night. He has a little water pool and I tried to fill the tank with leaves and little hiding places ( the bottom is newspaper). I was wondering if you eventually got your snake to eat, and if so how and how long did it take. Tomorrow will have been a week since i caught him and he still hasn't eaten the cut up nightcrawlers i left. I even tried the small cup method. but they are dried up again. How long is it safe for him to not eat? im getting worried. part of me think that i should return him to the wild but i dont want to or several reasons.
A. he will be stressed out again for changing environments and then what if he wont eat for another week out there now
B. I live in the Bronx.... he will never make it out there alive
C. its almost winter I'd rather let him go in the spring when he doesnt have to worry about finding a place to hibernate
D. I'm emotionally attached and it would most likely break my hear to let him go (this is the main reason)
E. The stuff i bought for him was so expensive.

So basically I guess what i need to know is at what point do i realize he will just never eat and let him go?
And can I afford to wait a few more days before I am scared about him dying?
help please! thanks!

infernalis

10-24-2012, 04:46 PM

Try smaller whole worms that wiggle around like whole worms do. It will seem more natural.

Eliza311

10-24-2012, 04:51 PM

When I put the piece of worm in there he is still wriggling and stays alive and moving for the better half of the day. The snake honestly seems scared of it and just moves away and wants nothing to do with it.
If I do get smaller worms where might I find them? is it something I can buy?
Like I said I live in the Bronx so I'm not sure how much digging I can do haha.

Light of Dae

10-24-2012, 07:48 PM

Add water in the dish of worms. That way they stay moist n alive longer giving him time to try them.

Eliza311

10-24-2012, 09:00 PM

What if he seems scared of them? he is always trying to escape them and goes to the other side. I have such a serious stomach ache and anxiety from this. am i killing him?

guidofatherof5

10-24-2012, 09:08 PM

He's not afraid of them.

Light of Dae

10-24-2012, 09:17 PM

Your not killing him, Try leaving him alone for 5-8 days, like no touching, no offering food, no staring closely into his tank, just leave him alone for now, let his mind fully settle n relax. he won't starve to death or anything, just make sure he has water. He'll be just fine.

After leaving him alone for at least 5-8 days then simply put a dish of nice wet worms or slugs in the tank n again leave him to it. You could probably watch from afar just don't have your head right by his tank.

Trust me, he will be fine with out eating for a while.

Any way you can post some pictures of him?

Eliza311

10-24-2012, 09:28 PM

Hahahah thank you all for dealing with my neuroses! Okay, so starting to tomorrow the only interaction i will have with him is filling up his water. other then that, nada. So do I start counting an addition 5-8 days starting tomorrow?
Here is the only pic I have of him- the first day I caught him. Id take another better one but i just promised to not touch him.
Do you want me to get a closer shot?
Thank you everyone so much!

SilasBannook

10-24-2012, 10:14 PM

Good for you Eliza and good luck. Not interacting with your little guy may be tough but the advice the team here gives is solid. Good luck and I look forward to your report in a week.

Ironpriest88

10-25-2012, 04:06 AM

It looks like you have a fairly small dekay there so it may be a little intimidated by the bigger worms even if cut up? What you could do is the next time you go to feed him try and hunt down some slugs. I found when I had dekays they *never* turned down slugs. Also are you sure you are feeding him the right type of worms? They will not eat the little skinny worms that I usually found in my backyard, I had to go out to city island and buy some from the bait shops.

ProXimuS

10-25-2012, 07:23 AM

What a teeny little guy, how cute:) I would start the 5-8 days starting immediately(now). Worked ok for my baby Rough Earthsnake, and now I've got her eating cut up worm pieces.(Not the same kind of snake, but still a rather reclusive wild caught snake). I just cut up the worm pieces and add a little water, lay down a paper towel on the substrate and leave the bowl over night.

Eliza311

10-25-2012, 05:01 PM

Okay, thanks guys!!
this is day 1 of me not touching. im gunna see if i cant find some slugs, are they in the dirt like worms?
ill let you know how it turns out. Thank you everyone for being so helpful

Invisible Snake

10-26-2012, 03:36 AM

im gunna see if i cant find some slugs, are they in the dirt like worms?

You can find slugs in dark moist places such as under rocks, under leaves, and under bark.

Eliza311

11-10-2012, 04:28 PM

okay so its been over a week since i attempted to leave him alone. I say attempt bc I was doing a lot of moving back and forth with him, because sandy hit and I was moving where i was staying. So a bit of a rocky time with him. I attempted to feed him these little baby slugs i found using beer in my garden. Still hasnt eaten. Its been 3 weeks since Ive had him and he hasnt eaten. I dont want to let him go bc it just snowed and he freeze!
thanks!

guidofatherof5

11-10-2012, 06:39 PM

Yes, it sounds like releasing in a big NO.
I should also say that some snakes don't do well in captivity. You are between a rock and a hard place since you can't release.
A short brumation might to in order to maybe jump start the eating.
Some snakes die from starvation rather then eat.
Just giving you the sad reality that sometimes happens.

Eliza311

11-11-2012, 12:57 AM

please dont ! i cannot have him starved. gave him a slug tn and didnt eat. should i release him guess? better he die out there then die bc of me... in result i cry every day. maybe i should just let him go and then buy a snake i know will eat since ive become so attached?

d_virginiana

11-11-2012, 01:38 AM

In NY, I imagine it is too cold for the snake to survive if released. It is absolutely NOT better to release a snake to certain death due to cold than to attempt to keep it and get it eating. Having taken it out of the wild, it's your responsibility to do what is best for it. Releasing it into conditions it can't survive in would still be it dying b/c of you; if you keep trying it might not.
Like Steve said, you could try getting it to go into brumation. I've never brumated my snakes before, but there are people on here who can tell you how to do this safely.

In the mean-time... Is there any way you can get the snake in an area where there is no foot traffic? As in, no one in the room except for you when you do water changes. They don't hear, but they feel vibrations, so even walking around their cages can frighten them. Maybe cover three sides of the tank to reduce visual stress? Also, am I remembering right that you said you have newspaper as a substrate? Newspaper is actually my favorite substrate, but shy snakes enjoy burrowing which they can't do on newspaper. If you can get carefresh bedding or something similar this might help. If you can't, toss in lots of fake leaves or something.
Can you get tiny feeder guppies and leave them in a shallow dish of water? This works great on lots of garters, but idk if dekayi prefer them as much as worms/slugs.

guidofatherof5

11-11-2012, 10:57 AM

I must agree, releasing now is a sure death sentence. The situation you are in has happened many times before and will happen again.
How are you feeding? Offering by hand? Dish?
Lora give some good advice.
If this snake has a hide it usually uses try cutting up the slug(so it doesn't escape) placing it under the hide on a small dish. I've had new snakes start eating in the security of their hide. After awhile I place the food outside the hide and they continue eating.
Keep us posted on this situation.

Eliza311

11-11-2012, 11:13 PM

I can try moving him, maybe to my closet. The slugs Im feeding him are super small, really no need to cut them up. I can try hiding them. I caught the slugs using beer and thats where I continue to store them. Would he stay away from them bc of a beer stench? should i wash them off first? Also I literally have no idea what brumnation is.

guidofatherof5

11-12-2012, 07:57 AM

Sorry, I should have explained more with my original post.
Brumation is a time is limited activity in cold/cool temps. For some snakes that is near freezing for others it is not near that cold. Brumation is a time when no food is eaten. For some snakes a cool down (brumation) for a short period of time will jump start their eating again. I have two non-eaters in my fridge right now. I'm hoping a month in there will get them eating again. It's very important that a snake going into brumation has not eaten for at least 2 weeks. Food in the gut will rot and kill the snake.
A small container with a water dish works fine. I brumate my snakes at 49-52 degrees in the fridge I use for my worms. Some people brumate in a cold crawl space or closet that gets cold. Care must be taken that the temps aren't to cold.
I don't have a concrete answer on the beer issue but washing them off might help as the smell might cause a problem. Once you have them, switch them over to vegetable matter though.
I hope this helps.

d_virginiana

11-12-2012, 12:59 PM

Definitely wash the slugs off. Some snakes will try to eat inanimate objects that smell vaguely food-like, and some are very picky.
I think cutting the slug was to prevent it from crawling out of the dish so that you could leave it in the tank without worrying about it crawling out.

If you put him in the closet, make sure he still has light about 12 hours a day.

d_virginiana

11-12-2012, 01:00 PM

Woops didn't realize the closet was for brumation. idk what the general rule for lighting during brumation is :)

guidofatherof5

11-12-2012, 01:13 PM

Not sure how important light could be since most natural brumation takes place in deep, dark places.
I certainly would like to hear other opinions on this subject.
I brumate my snakes in darkness unless I'm checking on them.

Stefan-A

11-12-2012, 01:20 PM

idk what the general rule for lighting during brumation is :)
The general rule for lighting during brumation, is "None." Or "Very little." Personally, I'm not convinced that it matters much, at least not compared to temperature.

Invisible Snake

11-12-2012, 05:42 PM

How do you catch slugs with beer? o.O

Eliza311

11-12-2012, 09:22 PM

you just put a little cup with beer in the garden. the next day i had like 6 slugs. read it on the internet! I'm still kind of lost, I dont know what the best solution is. he hasnt eaten for a little over 3 weeks so i guess I could try brumnation. would he die of starvation?

d_virginiana

11-12-2012, 09:59 PM

Brumation is a state of seriously slowed down metabolism for the snake. They do this in the wild to avoid starving. It is somewhat risky, as there are snakes that die during brumation in the wild. It's much less likely with a human supervising and controlling things though.

Mommy2many

11-13-2012, 03:59 PM

I have to ask you a question about your slugs. Are they still alive? Perhaps luring slugs with beer is not a good option, especially for the snake who will ingest them. Usually, the slugs have killed themselves with the beer. You can attract slugs by placing cardboard on the ground. Pizza boxes are great tools for this.

Your Dekayi will probably want his slugs alive. My Dekayi also took to eating worms when her tank mates ate her slugs on her :) You just need to make sure the worms are cut up small enough for your snake to be able to eat them.

Good luck with your Dekayi and welcome!

Eliza311

11-14-2012, 01:40 PM

my slugs are dead. when i first picked them up some where still alive. so maybe i will try this again and rather than store in beer put it in a cup or something. thanks!

d_virginiana

11-14-2012, 03:11 PM

Storing them in beer is probably what killed them. Their skin is basically one giant mucous membrane, so they can absorb whatever they're in. Probably for the best that the snake didn't take them. If they had absorbed a lot of the beer it could be bad for him.

Get some dirt and leaves from your yard, put it in a cup or tupperware container, and either put the top on it or wrap the top in saran wrap and put holes in it. They'll crawl out otherwise. Keep the soil moist and put them in a dark, cool place. I kept a couple slugs alive for several weeks like that once.

Foxrun402

11-14-2012, 03:43 PM

Another thing you might try is using a set of hemostats or feeding tongs and jiggle a piece of worm close to him/her they like action and seeing something smaller then them move basically triggers thier curiosity and feeding responses... Or even if it attacks a worm chunk out of fear it wont be bad for it and then it would at least have the taste and somewhat of a feel for it in its mouth...

But dont dig through fishing tackle and grab old used hemostats... make sure they are clean and sanitary... wouldnt want the little thing to get sick!

SleepingPills

03-30-2014, 08:09 PM

Hey all! I'm new here, in a fairly similar circumstance to Eliza311. Caught a Storeria dekayi in my work and it's currently too cold to let him go. I caught him on the 22nd, bought him a tank and substrate and a hiding spot and a bunch of food from PetSmart. They initially told me to feed him minnows, since that's what they feed their garter snakes. But I came to find out his species and that they aren't garter snakes and their diet in the wild is mostly earthworms, snails, and slugs. He hasn't eaten in front of me yet and I've tried leaving him alone with food multiple times. I get increased anxiety each time I try to feed him and he doesn't eat. He's also extremely nervous when handled and always nearly constantly tries to get out of hands/run away. I'm really praying this will lessen with time. He has a heating pad under his tank on the outside so he has a warm side, etc.. Happy to supply a photo if needed. I currently have red wigglers, which I got at PetSmart, but hoping to head to a tackle shop at some point tomorrow to grab some small earthworms. Whenever I put the wigglers or the earthworms in front of him, he just seems intimidated and either moves away or ignores them. He has coconut shavings soil substrate. Not sure if I should switch to normal soil or paper or what. I know this thread has been inactive for over a year, but any help is greatly appreciated. I'm really loving this little guy and want to seem him thrive as best as possible. Also I would like to know what ended up happening with Eliza311. Thanks so much.

Giovanni

slipknot711

03-31-2014, 05:05 AM

red wrigglers arent good, but the earthworms are. did you try cutting the earthworms up?

guidofatherof5

03-31-2014, 03:54 PM

What conditions was the snake found in? dekayis are much more cold tolerant then garters. No red worms or minnows.
Earthworms would be great. Most wild caught snakes take sometime to settle in. Some longer then others. Be sure to supply a good clean water supply. Hopefully our resident expert/moderator on dekayi (Wayne-infernalis) will post up to lend his wisdom to the mix.;)

SleepingPills

04-07-2014, 07:59 PM

So, update: he ate just a little around the next day after posting this. I tried dangling a dilly worm (I guess it's just a smaller nightcrawler) in front of him, mild interest but not taking after trying multiple things, I finally held him and he snapped at the end of the worm while I was holding him by towards his tail. Nervous that he wouldn't be able to eat the whole thing , I cut it while he was eating, so he probably ate like a third of the worm. He's seemed to refuse most food since. He was found in my work, I work at the front desk of a gym and I found him towards the back of the place. I've been keeping water in his bowl, though I've never actually seen him drinking from it. I have so many questions constantly while having him around, I'm always so nervous for him.

guidofatherof5

04-10-2014, 07:23 PM

Being held by/near the tail will not help to keep him calm or settle in. You both need some time to settle into this new relationship. You will have to adjust to the snakes timing as that's the way it is.
Getting him to eat at all is a plus. Where are you located? Could be that the snake is just coming out of brumation.

SleepingPills

04-13-2014, 04:12 PM

I'm in Massachusetts, so it's possible maybe! He's my first snake so I hardly know the first thing about us getting to know each other and how to make him more comfortable.

guidofatherof5

04-13-2014, 05:08 PM

Put him in a moderate traffic area so he can learn humans are just part of his new world. When he's out stop and talk to him. He'll learn quickly you are not there to hurt him. As this all progresses you can place your hand in the tank and see if he will come out to investigate. Eventually, he'll crawl through your hand, at this time you can start lifting him out/up.
The best way to get him to trust you is through his stomach. Once he associates you with food the battle is over.
Do you have a pair of hemostats? They are great for feeding snakes.
http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/general-talk/13159-free-hemostats-merry-christmas-members.html

jwolfe152

04-13-2014, 10:22 PM

Yes hemostats are a great tool for getting a snake to adjust to you and your hands

slipknot711

04-14-2014, 05:49 AM

I'm in Massachusetts, so it's possible maybe! He's my first snake so I hardly know the first thing about us getting to know each other and how to make him more comfortable.

Where in Mass? Im in RI if you ever need any help

SleepingPills

04-25-2014, 08:23 PM

I'm in Lexington. I would love help, I just don't know what to do to get him more comfortable with me. If you're ever around, it would mean the world.

As far as putting my hands in the tank, talking to him etc., he doesn't seem to grow much more easy at all, still very timid.

guidofatherof5

04-25-2014, 08:29 PM

SleepingPills

04-25-2014, 08:46 PM

This is all done on the snakes schedule. They will accept you when they accept you.;)

Good to know. So it should happen with time? Should I leave my hand in there for an extended period of time? Maybe I'll post a video sometime to show his tank.

Brownsnakesrule

06-08-2015, 07:53 PM

I've fed mine small crickets from the pet store. I also have a ring-neck living with it and they r best buds. I don't know if they r male or female.

joeysgreen

06-11-2015, 11:25 AM

Ringneck snake commonly eat other snakes.

d_virginiana

06-11-2015, 07:36 PM

I've fed mine small crickets from the pet store. I also have a ring-neck living with it and they r best buds. I don't know if they r male or female.

What Joey said. Please separate the ringneck out.

Also, neither dekay brown snakes or ringnecks eat crickets. They cannot digest them. The crickets are either burrowing or escaping the tank.

Brownsnakesrule

06-13-2015, 02:27 PM

I have watched them eat the crickets. And the ring neck is smaller the the deKay

d_virginiana

06-16-2015, 08:05 PM

Smaller does not mean that he can't try to eat the dekayi or stress him out. These two animals are not meant to be housed together.

Let me rephrase: They cannot properly digest crickets. If you don't believe me, start a new thread and ask for opinions on it. That diet will eventually kill them.

Zdravko092368

06-16-2015, 09:00 PM

d_virginiana

06-16-2015, 09:51 PM

Ringnecks are generalists and will eat pretty much anything, i'm not sure on their ability to digesthttp://cdncache-a.akamaihd.net/items/it/img/arrow-10x10.png (http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/#44720728) crickets as it probably hasn't been studied since they've never been popular among people or the pet trade. So I wouldn't say they can't, but I will say a varied diet is better and an only cricket diet most likely isn't healthy and will lead to problems. They are often found in groups in the wild despite the fact they have been known to prey on smaller snakes.

I could see that as justification for potentially keeping similar-sized ringnecks together, but not as justification for keeping them with another species. The only inter-species cohabitation for snakes I've ever seen recommended anywhere is between garters/ribbons/dekayi brown snakes. Definitely a bad idea with a snake-eating snake in the mix IMO.

Wild ringnecks eat primarily amphibians, slugs, and sometimes other snakes. I think they can eat crickets as babies? But regardless, I'd agree with you that a solely cricket diet is a bad idea. At the very least you'd need to supplement calcium. Probably vitamins too, since captive crickets are generally nutrient deficient. I've only occasionally seen them recommended as part of a varied diet for ringnecks, never as a staple.

I should have been more specific, and I just realized I said in my first post neither do; that should have referred to the dekay. I'm glad you made that post or I wouldn't have gone back and noticed! To my knowledge they are very closely related to garters and have almost identical husbandry. If that info is true, then they aren't able to properly digest chitin. I'm sure they will jump on a cricket if they get hungry enough, but that doesn't mean their system can handle the chitin long-term. If anyone has info in dekays being able to digest crickets please jump in and correct me (and I'll apologize for being a jerk about it lol), but I think they are pretty much identical to garters in that respect.
(The closest experience I have to Storeria dekayi is rehabbing Storeria occipitomaculata, and it was my understanding that the only appropriate invert feeders were slugs and worms. Generally dietary needs are pretty similar across a genus, so I'm not just pulling that out of thin air, but there are definitely people with more experience in it than I have)

joeysgreen

06-17-2015, 10:41 PM

I think you might find that all of these small snakes are much more opportunistic than you might expect. If it's eating crickets, stick with it, but follow the advice to offer a variety seriously. Consider also adding crustaceans like sow and pill bugs as their exoskeleton is made of calcium instead of chitin... another perfect example of how variety can benefit. Make certain that all prey is gutloaded and consider a fecal/deworming schedule for your pets.

Ian