Post pics of your anery red sideds?

[RedSidedSPR]

Could you (if you have one) post pics of your anerythristic red sided garters? Any age. I have one, and i want to see some in different stages.

here ya go. This is mine. He's 8 inches. Here he is a few weeks ago. He JUST shed yesterday, and his stripes are different, and they're more blue... just curious to the look of some snakes, both old and young.

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b283/chucknkelly/Babysnake103.jpg

As you can see he's still young (very)

[Jeff B]

Randy,here is an adult male from a few year back, this pic was taken in 2008 kinda wish I would have kept him he was nice, also wish I would have held back some females the past couple years, but I never have, always sold them. I was going to hold back a female this year but I have yet to produce one, bad luck I guess.

[sirtalis01]

Her is a female from Jeff B..shes an 09 huge grl..
http://i54.tinypic.com/vcyqag.jpg

[Chondro788]

My favorite one from Jeff B. This girl is awesome, she is much more silver and black then my others.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v152/chondro788/DSCN0266.jpg

And here is a little baby from Scott F...
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v152/chondro788/DSCN0369.jpg

They go through some much color change in their first year it is amazing!! I love this morph! :D

[RedSidedSPR]

Me too!!

Love that first one Chrondo, and yours Jeff. Awesome snakes.

Thanks, guys. Those are awesome. Just what i was looking for. Keep 'em coming (or not)

[infernalis]

Nice... I put up picture of wrong snake..

[RedSidedSPR]

Does that mean you're going to post the right one now? :D

[Jeff B]

Julio and Jason you guys are killing me, I'm so envious!!! Man I knew I should have held back a female anery, they look awesome all grown up, they are absolutely beautiful. One of the most undervalued or underated morphs out there, and I would bet that they are even prettier in person than the pics even do justice. Even though I have produced dozens I have never held back and grown out a female even though I have always wanted to see a full grown anery red sided. Thanks for sharing, those pics makes me happy....sorta:cool::D

[infernalis]

Does that mean you're going to post the right one now? :D


OK, I almost posted the Anery Radix. I didn't notice until after I posted it. So anyways.....

http://www.reptard.info/pic/anery1.jpg

http://www.thamnophis.us/cherry/anery.jpg

http://www.thamnophis.us/WGS/anery.jpg

http://www.thamnophis.us/snakes/new/bw.jpg

[RedSidedSPR]

Love that one, man!! Almost no white, that's awesome! Is that all the same snake?

[BUSHSNAKE]

i still say those things are "melanistic" not anery!

[RedSidedSPR]

Waynes, or all of them?

[infernalis]

Love that one, man!! Almost no white, that's awesome! Is that all the same snake?

No, I have 2 of them.

[Scott F]

Hey Joey, do we need to go over the genetics again on anery vs mel ?? lol Top two pics are melanistic (eastern & wandering), bottom one is anery red sided.

Scott

[RedSidedSPR]

Thanks, I like the anery, but he has more white than I like... Still very cool.

[annulataarethebest]

Those anery red sideds are awesome looking as adults.

[RedSidedSPR]

They really do. It's one of my favorite morphs.

[BUSHSNAKE]

you wanna go over the genitics with me Scott...come on lets go...but first let me point out the similarities...black bellies, white chins, whitish to greyish pattern(same with sirtalis sirtalis, we've seen it), both created snows, you put em next to normals and they look black and not all melanistics have to look the same

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

A name is a name.... That's all it is! No need to argue over what they are called... We could argue terminology all day but no one is right unless the snakes skins were actually tested to see which pigments are present, in which concentrations, and which pigments the gene actually affects. And that goes for all morphs, when we are using terminology such as amelanistic, anerythristic, it is ALL speculative without the data to back it up.The one thing that does tend to confuse people is that the term anerythristic refers to a gene that removes one specific type of pigment.. In this case the reds... Or erythrins or erythrophores or whatever the heck they are called. When you look at the anery redsided, you can clearly see that there is not only a lack of reds in the snake, but a lot more going on, from the increased amounts of dark coloration, to the lack of all other color... All of the yellows and browns and tans are also gone and in what the world traditionally sees as anerythristic, doest match up with what these guys look like. I think that's the major point of confusion as I have had people commet on anery red sideds at shows before, asking me why they are called anery. The fact remains though that Scott named them anery so, that is what they are called. I don't always agree with the terminology that people use to name their snakes, especiAlly all those fancy ball python morph names like "killer bee" and "mystic potion" (combos, but you get the idea!) but I do want to point out that names are only labels we as humans give, they mean nothing in the grand scheme of things.

[Scott F]

Melanistics...jet black usually w/ a patch of white on their chin..anery's have a pattern...take a good long look at the pics !! Mels have a pattern when in shed, anerys always have their pattern. End of discussion (arguing this is a moot point) lol

Scott

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

I am not here to argue a point, merely to inject my personal observations. There is one thing for sure, none of us really know what any of our morphs are unless someone with the ability to do so stepped up and did some serious testing. it's totally possible that the gene that does this to redsideds is neither melanistic -or- anery. And the translucency of the facial features and lack of all coloration points to this possibly being the case.

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

OR it's also possible that this one single gene is responsible for both a lack of production of color pigments and an increased production of melanin, which it does appear these snakes have. Yes they do lack red, so calling them anery is right, but they also lack all their yellow so they could have equally been dubbed axanthics. And as such they also appear to have a greatly increased amount of black pigment, right down to their eyes, and by definition, a hypermelanistic animal simply has increased amounts of melanin. Where or how it is distributed can depend on the type of melanism as I am sure there is more than one mutation that can cause melanism just as there is more than one that causes albinism. There are many, many examples of types of snakes that have a melanistic form that still retains a pattern. However, due to the transparency of the skin in these red sideds,( that is where they are getting that weird bluish tint from) it's quite possible that it's a unique type of mutation that is more complex than just being melanistic, or just being anery. It may not be either! The transparency points to this being possible and the fact that possibly this gene goes so far as to alter the physical makeup of the layers of skin.

[RdubSnider]

I definitely agree that there's alot left unanswered. The melanistics seem to be a. Little easier to say for sure but the difference between what's called an anery or an axathic can easily be debated. So Im with you on who ever names it, lets go with it. Very beautiful snakes and great pictures from every one

[Jeff B]

Ditto Randy:cool:

Scott you know better than to bite into troll bait, you just couldn't resist could you, lol :rolleyes::D

[Hornets23]

Good thread! This might be my favorite morph. Love love LOVE the one in your last pic Scott!

[Scott F]

Jeff, Righto bud ! Should know better !

Scott

[BUSHSNAKE]

with all the numerous similarities and only the one difference, my opinion will always be what it is now, dont get mad at me and call me a troll cuz i dont agree with you...i know that you know scott, that i know what those animals look like and your showing me pictures for what? put a picture up of the "leopard" morph so everyone can see what a patterned melanistic morph looks like...does the melanistic eastern have erythrins or axanthins...i say no

[BUSHSNAKE]

Scott you still want to debate this cuz ive got more on the subject?

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

::sigh::

[Stefan-A]

Yeah.

[infernalis]

Re: Post pics of your anery red sideds?

OK come on, where are the pictures?

[RdubSnider]

I was under the belief that all the melanistics do have a pattern, even the leopard but is completely masked by the gene which is why sometimes you can see a faint pattern when there in a shed.
When reading this it seemed to me that peoples comments were more of a playful thing.

[RedSidedSPR]

They were. And you are right about the patterns

[BUSHSNAKE]

the leopard was a melanistic that was born with a pattern and it looked liked the so called anery. I was only stating my opinion(when i feel strongly about something that i feel is important i will do so)...and then someone wanted to give me lesson in genes so i answered back...its not like i didnt bring up some valid points on the matter and i have more reasons that back up my claim...im not able to post pics at the moment which also could also be helpful to my claim....PEACE OUT

[RedSidedSPR]

It's my thread, and i'm allowing it :D:D:D Continue :D

Just kidding, but yeah, there was nothing wrong with what ya said.

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

One this is for sure, everyone has valid points to make and nobody can be 100% right, as we have no scientific proof they are what we say they are. It is always a GOOD thing to re-examine things and ask new questions. Especially when we use terms to name morphs that are taken from the scientific community that have a designated purpose, we open ourselves up to scrutiny and cross examination from our peers. This is not a bad thing and it's not a bad thing for anyone to question the naming system currently in place. It is done every day in the scientific community. But again, it's a moot point to argue if we have no proof, either way.

[RdubSnider]

Joe I liked the points you made and would like to see some different pictures when Its possible. I was simply saying that it didn't seem to me like it was anyone disregarding what you was saying but more just throwing some humor in there. Just the way it seemed to me. I always enjoy learning some new info. But if anyone ever took the time and money to scientifically determine these things then I think we all might be shocked by the findings.

[BUSHSNAKE]

thanks Randy

[BUSHSNAKE]

one last thing...it is claimed the red sides and and the plains are anery cuz they have no red...ok plains arent red to begin with..red sides have red between the dorsal and lateral stripes... the dorsal should still be yellow but they are colorless...another similarity to the melanistics and thats why you can create snows...people have been breeding morphs for decades now its not a new science...when you have an albino with yellow(like the ball python)it takes an axanthic to prduce a snow...when you have an albino with red(like a corn)then it takes an anery to produce a snow. working with morphs is kind of like painting...all your doing is adding and taking away pigment, its best to understand your pallet...anery, axanthic, albino, erythristic, leucistic, melanistic, hypo, recessive, co-dom,super(no supers in garters yet)natural or mutation...etc. Peace!

[Jeff B]

"people have been breeding morphs for decades now its not a new science...when you have an albino with yellow(like the ball python)it takes an axanthic to prduce a snow...when you have an albino with red(like a corn)then it takes an anery to produce a snow."
Quote from Joe above
Joe I think you just talked yourself into and verified the justification of the red-sided and plains anerys being called anerys and not melanistic right there. The red-sided albinos have tons of reds and oranges, and when you combine the ANERY gene, that red is completely gone in the resulting SNOW, clear evidence that the ANERY gene has taken the REDs (ery=red, anery=red taken away). I personally could be more on the fence with calling the plains or red-sided anery vs axanthic, since there is also yellows in addition taken away from the red-sided and plains albinos, but it is definately not a best fit to be called melanistic.
The eastern SNOW is not really a snow, if we use the strict definition of a snow is the combo of anery and albino, then it's a melanistic albino combo and part of the reason it is a "dirty" snow is that the Shuett albino is a "dirty" T+albino so it is not a completely melanine destroyed gene like the Iowa albino or the red-sided albino and the other reason is that the melanistic eastern gene wipes out the pattern so you see the dirty T+ albinos purplish/brownish smeared all over.
I think part of what makes these terms contriversial in the garter snake world and confuses us all is that these garter snake genes by appearance don't really fall tightly into the conventional corn snake categories, the garter axanthic/anery genes exibit a crisp black color which could just be just the result of stripping other brown making color pigments leaving only crisp black, (remember reds and greens mixed make brown) or could be the result of those other colors being stripped away AND an increase in melanin. Also garters may produce unique pigments that make greens and blues, that corns and balls have none of. One reason why garters are WAAAAAY more colorful, and have way more different colored morphs, species, subspecies, polymorphic traits, ect that any other snake on the planet.
It's going to be interesting to see what the eastern melanistic gene does in combination with a more wiped out melanin albino (likely T-) like the florida albino. My guess is that you will still see the solid pattern aspect of the melanistic gene in the florida albino melanistic, but that the melanistic gene will not strip or take away any of the yellow from the florida albino, so it will be a solid "dirty" yellowish snake rather than the "dirty" purplish/brownish of the Schuett albino melanistic, and maybe neither snake really desirves to be called a snow, but what we call any of these genes or gene combos, its all symantics really anyway IMHO and either way I think we should just respect the initial call of the person that had the right and priveledge to name them in the first place and just stick with it, it's just easier that way.
You say eether and I say eyether,
You say neether and I say nyther;
Eether, eyether, neether, nyther,
Let's call the whole thing off!
You like potato and I like potahto,
You like tomato and I like tomahto;
Potato, potahto, tomato, tomahto!
Let's call the whole thing off!

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

I definitely agree with having respect for whoever named the morph, but if you name a morph after a scientific term such as anerythristic, it does kinda open yourself up to scrutiny from everyone because it's not an original name. It's a word borrowed from the textbooks. Not so much in our little garter corner, but in other hobbies, like the milk snakes and python hobbies, people get really serious about it when you use terms like that. You can name your morph hypo, because it's your new morph to name, but then a bunch of guys gang up on you and yell at you because they think you are wrong and that it's T+ albino. Regardless, I see both sides of the argument and I understand that Scott does not wish to debate it because he named the morph anery and that's that. But I can also see why people ask questions, and there is nothing wrong with not blindly accepting what you are told at face value. That is why we all have opinions. And remember, the names we give these morphs, that is all they are is a personal opinion from someone who took their best educated guess. There's just no way anyone can claim to be totally right as we have NO data to prove the pigments we say are affected are being affected the way we say they are. Heck, do we even know exactly what types of pigments garters have? It is certainly more extensive than other types of snakes as Jeff has pointed out.

It is good to question things and to test our fellow hobbyist, even if it means testing their patience at times. Debating is healthy as long as people can remain mature about it. Nobody is going to agree on everything 100% of the time, and if we all did, this hobby would be no fun. As we learn more, things will change, and that is inevitable.

I can say one thing, if I did close my eyes and envision my own personal version of an "anery" red sided, it would look a lot like The Golden Redsided. in fact, that's exactly what I feel it would look like.

Scott Felzer's Garter Snakes, specializing in aberrant garters (http://www.albinogartersnake.com/price_colorless_redsided.htm)

In my opinion, there would not be a better descriptive term for that animal than anery.

[BUSHSNAKE]

Jeff we have had this conversation a million times and you know my point of view on this subject and you know its not gonna change so this was for the people who havent heard it yet and the points i made are facts i wasnt attacking ANYONE and if i offended someone with my red white and blue opinion i appalogize but i hope i got some wheels turning out there.

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

There is no reason anyone should be offended... :)

[Scott F]

Jaff makes some very salient points regarding the snows. The red sided and plains snows were both created by breeding anerys to albinos and breeding the resulting double hets back to one another. Is anyone questioning that these are not snows ? By the creation of the snows, this unequivocably proves out the genetics of the parents (ie true anerythristics). Hard to justify arguing this point but whoever wants to, is welcome to.

I've touched on this a while back but as far as naming snakes, the breeder has the luxury of creating names for new morphs that he/she produces. This is one of the cool things about our hobby that makes it fun !!

Scott

[BUSHSNAKE]

The points have already been made, would you like to tell me what i said thats untrue?

[BUSHSNAKE]

you and jeff love gaining up on me...no problem bring it Scott and Jeff

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

Jaff makes some very salient points regarding the snows. The red sided and plains snows were both created by breeding anerys to albinos and breeding the resulting double hets back to one another. Is anyone questioning that these are not snows ? By the creation of the snows, this unequivocably proves out the genetics of the parents (ie true anerythristics). Hard to justify arguing this point but whoever wants to, is welcome to.

I've touched on this a while back but as far as naming snakes, the breeder has the luxury of creating names for new morphs that he/she produces. This is one of the cool things about our hobby that makes it fun !!

Scott

I don't think that anyone is questioning the validity of them being snows, especially since even though classically the term for a snow means albino/anerythristic, we are finding that mixing other morphs with albino produces the same "snow" effect. Like if you breed a melanistic eastern to a strain Of t negative albino, you are going to get a very "snowy looking" snake. Even if these redsided/plains were called melanistics in the first place, I am sure the resulting albino crosses would have still been referred to as snows. Getting a "snowy looking" baby doesn't prove that they are anerythristics, (not arguing, just saying it isn't proof) it just proves that the mutation removes much of the pigment. But the same affect could be achieved with the easterns which are DEFINITELY melanistic.

[Scott F]

Hey Shannon,

The goldens's trait has not been replicated in several breedings (breeding F1's to F1's and the golden male to F1 female offspring). This doesn't disprove that it is not some form of anerythristic, but makes the chances it is remote at best. This snake is for sale now but if he doesn't sell, I will breed him to the albino next year to prove (or disprove) this theory. It could actually make for an interesting project, sometimes breeding one morph to a different one(s) can produce different results too. I will breed him too this Iowa albino red sided if this albino's het male is not breeder size by next Spring.

Scott

[BUSHSNAKE]

Shannon didnt say it was an anery only thats how one would look BY DEFFINITION, its hard to compare redsides, plains, and easterns because in their natural form they dont look the same so why should the morphs look the same...

[BUSHSNAKE]

but if you want to compare morphs i think the nebraska snow is very SIMILAR to the eastern snow....and thats a fact

[BUSHSNAKE]

You can take a natural color varient(like a miami corn)and use it to create new looks...but its not genetic mutation so that comes into play as well

[BUSHSNAKE]

one more thing...there is an anery and an axanthic plains right? one takes away red one takes away yellow...why cant you produce a morph when you breed em together?

[Scott F]

Joe said "Shannon didnt say it was an anery only thats how one would look BY DEFFINITION, its hard to compare redsides, plains, and easterns because in their natural form they dont look the same so why should the morphs look the same "

Here are some pics of anery garters (Plains, West Va and south Carolina Easterns, and red sideds).

Scott

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

Hey Shannon,

The goldens's trait has not been replicated in several breedings (breeding F1's to F1's and the golden male to F1 female offspring). This doesn't disprove that it is not some form of anerythristic, but makes the chances it is remote at best. This snake is for sale now but if he doesn't sell, I will breed him to the albino next year to prove (or disprove) this theory. It could actually make for an interesting project, sometimes breeding one morph to a different one(s) can produce different results too. I will breed him too this Iowa albino red sided if this albino's het male is not breeder size by next Spring.

Scott

Aww well that stinks! I thought it said there were gold babies born but i am guessing they colored up? And Wow! Is that a t positive red sided????? Omg. I neeeeeeed one of those.

[Scott F]

Hey Shannon,

I'll need your address to ship it to you :)

Scott

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

Hey Shannon,

I'll need your address to ship it to you :)

Scott


hehe, I WISH!!! :)

[RedSidedSPR]

Do it. That way I can buy the babies!

[ConcinusMan]

i still say those things are "melanistic" not anery!

Me too, but what do I know, I'm just a latecomer layman here on the genetics/pigments subject.


and not all melanistics have to look the same

And they don't. I don't know how many times I've seen melanistic ordinoides for sale or pictured and people call them "axanthic" or "anery" just because they look similar to anery this or axanthic that. They are nieither. They are melanistic and melanistic doesn't look the same on one species as it does another. It doesn't even have to be black necessarily.



Hey Joey, do we need to go over the genetics again on anery vs mel ??

Give it a shot. This should be entertaining. Actually I've heard it before. I'm not at all convinced by the arguments but I'm willing to hear it again.



Melanistics...jet black usually w/ a patch of white on their chin..anery's have a pattern...
Scott

Anery ordinoides often have a pattern although faint. Also not necessarily jet black. Can be charcoal gray. The melanistic you described is only one phenotype for one species. The only melanistic phenotype for eastern garters.

One must be willing to loosen their conception of what is anery, what is axanthic, and what is melanistic in order to come closer to the truth. This narrow definition of what is what, is at the heart of the issue. What is closer to the truth is that you cannot place everything in neat little well-defined packages. Biology, and life in general, isn't contained in this manner and neither should our conceptions about it be. In short, it's not all "black and white"

With all that said, I do believe that anery red-sides are the purest example and defintion of "anerythristic". all areas that should be red are pigment less. There is no more, or no less of any other pigments. There is no obvious apparent Epistasis - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epistasis) going on like there likely is going on with these questionable "anery" and axanthic snakes.

This is simply not the case with my anery T.s. concinnus'. They have pigment in every place on their body. It's just not the "right" color in certain areas. In that case, I fully admit that "anery" is purely a descriptive term for lack of a better one.

There could be much more going on than simple anerythrism or axanthism (I don't even know if that's the correct terms but hell). There are probably also genes affected which are hypostatic. "Side effects" if you will, that alter the function of other genes involving pigment distribution or color. Life isn't so simple that either of us could possibly be 100% right or wrong.

I'm liking where the conversation/debate is going. It would be a shame if people dropped out over emotions and egos. Please continue!

[MasSalvaje]

Give it up Richard; everyone knows the arguments for this and that. Nothing anyone can say will definitively prove one side or the other of this moot argument.


What is closer to the truth is that you cannot place everything in neat little well-defined packages.

I do believe you can, haven't you been down the cereal isle of any grocery store? I believe they do it all the time and quite effectively if you ask me.

You forget that the entire purpose of science is to attempt to put the unexplainable into a nice little jar of formaldehyde for all to see and understand. Sometimes it works and sometimes we fall short so we stick it in another jar or box for awhile until somebody else comes along and puts it in a new jar of their own. It is a never ending process that will go on as long as our egocentric species exists. No need to hash it out every time the subject comes up.

Some call it melinistic, some call it anery, I choose to call it Black Bean Phantom Gas. Point is they are just names so call it what you may and let me and everyone else do the same without hashing it all out.

So I am not completely off topic, Please keep posting pics of these guys! They have been at the top of my "to get" list for quite some time.

-Thomas

[ssssnakeluvr]

here's my ordinoides.... unfortunately he passed away last winter during brumation

http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g302/ssssnakeluvr/DSCF8041.jpg

[Scott F]

Jesse,

I know where you live, will drop off tomorrow, if Shannon is ok w/ that of course :)

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

Some call it melinistic, some call it anery, I choose to call it Black Bean Phantom Gas. Point is they are just names so call it what you may and let me and everyone else do the same without hashing it all out.



LOL!!! I have been saying that all along. They are just names... nothing more. They mean nothing to anything in the world except we humans who make them up. And you know what??? I am going to start calling them black bean phantom gasses now. :p

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

Jesse,

I know where you live, will drop off tomorrow, if Shannon is ok w/ that of course :)

No, I am not okay with that!!! :p

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

okay wait... send me the west virginia anery and we will call it a day. *drools*

[ConcinusMan]

Point is they are just names so call it what you may and let me and everyone else do the same without hashing it all out.
-Thomas

You completely miss the point. "Hashing it out" as you call it is thought provoking and generates new ideas and points of view. That is never a bad thing. What you suggest is that we all stop discussing it and remain the dark ages. Not this cat. Names will be names but if we can keep it civil long enough, I think it's best to continue such discussions, if you have the energy for it that is. If you'd rather sit by the sidelines and say nothing so you can't possibly be wrong or right or have any constructive criticism or challenge to your ideas, then by all means, play it safe and sit in the dugout.


Jesse,

I know where you live, will drop off tomorrow, if Shannon is ok w/ that of course :)

And there goes Scott. I guess he's dropped out and fell back on what he knows- PR, Lip service, and marketing. Nothing personal, I know you're too busy for long discussions. Just observing.:cool:

I for one would love someone to challenge any ideas I might have and prove me completely wrong and "humiliate" me, so to speak. Problem is, people let their egos get in the way and drop out before things get meaningful because they don't want to be "wrong". Well what if none of us are "right". What does that leave? healthy thought provoking discussion and debate. How can that be wrong? How can that be a waste of time? It's not about whos right or wrong. It's about the entire process of thoughts and ideas coming together. Get that, and you'll get "the point" of discussing it at all.

Now we've all been down this road before. What happened? people get bruised egos and drop out. What if that didn't happen? What if we spend two hours a month and came back to this conversation? I tell you what would happen. Same thing that happened when the dark ages ended.

[MasSalvaje]

You completely miss the point. "Hashing it out" as you call it is thought provoking and generates new ideas and points of view. That is never a bad thing. What you suggest is that we all stop discussing it and remain the dark ages.

I think you are the one missing the point Richard. Nothing you can say in this thread adds anything to this overall "debate". I never once suggested we should stick our heads in holes and not discuss pertinent topics. I am a Poli-Sci major, I understand the importance and even feed off good debate and discussion, but everything you could possibly say about the matter has been previously stated in other threads, by you or others. We have gone as far as we can go on a forum on the subject, let it be! If you want to continue this debate in a genetics lab where we could actual test our opinions then by all means go for it, but until then....

-Thomas

[RedSidedSPR]

Jesse,

I know where you live, will drop off tomorrow, if Shannon is ok w/ that of course :)

Sure, why not. Tomorrow works.

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

I am going to post a wanted Ad on KS for Black Bean Phantom Gasses.

[RedSidedSPR]

Do it.

[snakehill]

I finally know what your name is!;)

[d_virginiana]

You completely miss the point. "Hashing it out" as you call it is thought provoking and generates new ideas and points of view. That is never a bad thing. What you suggest is that we all stop discussing it and remain the dark ages.


It's been brought up before that no research has been done as to that *actual* nature of the pigmentation in anery, axanthic, melanistic, ect. garters. The exact mechanism of how these traits are expressed isn't known. I know a good bit about genetics, but not so much about garter breeding and traits, so I've been staying out of the discussion but it's been very interesting to read this thread...
It seems to me though that until actual research is done into what genes cause these traits and the mechanisms of expression involved (ie; do anerys have a faulty production mechanism for red pigment, or do they produce an enzyme which blocks an otherwise functional red production mechanism, or any other hundreds of things that could happen to get this trait and which could effect how it acts when passed to future generations) that all people are arguing is semantics, and that doesn't get anyone anywhere. Until someone decides to drag a bunch of garters into a lab and test them, it's really up to a breeder what they call a particular morph...


I am going to post a wanted Ad on KS for Black Bean Phantom Gasses.

DO IT! I'd love to see any replies to that :D

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

Just to mess with everyone's head, I am going to prove out a new line of flame and name it the Icicle. Then, I'm going to prove out a new line of melanistic and call it the black albino. Then i am going to prove out a new strain of t negative albino and call it chocolate! None of you can stop me!!! Muahahaha!


Now to go digging in my yard and catch me a chocolate icicle het for black albino!

[RedSidedSPR]

Lol, I'm serious, DO IT!!

[kibakiba]

Do it Shannon. Everyone will love the new icicle het for black albinos. :D

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

A chocolate icicle het for black albino would look like one of tom's albino flames!! because of this thread, I have just named my male albino flame Icicle. And his Schuett sister shall be named Chocolate.

[RedSidedSPR]

.....And that melanistic will be called Black Bean. :D

[Scott F]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott F http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/images/green/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/general-talk/8837-post-pics-your-anery-red-sideds-7.html#post168191)
Jesse,

I know where you live, will drop off tomorrow, if Shannon is ok w/ that of course :)

Richard's reply: And there goes Scott. I guess he's dropped out and fell back on what he knows- PR, Lip service, and marketing. Nothing personal, I know you're too busy for long discussions. Just observing.:cool:

Richard, Are you sure your formal name isn't Dickie minus the ie cuz it sure fits your personality better :) I guess you didn't know that that comment was a joke...everyone else got it but you...I'm decent at PR, Poor Richard first thing that comes to mind, lip service (read my lips, kiss my arse !), and marketing (I heard about your face book photo and how disturbing it was and decided to post it here for everyone to see). I would imagine there are probably 100,000,000 or more people on facebook, and of those how many are holding guns to their heads ?? Nothing personal.

Scott

[Scott F]

Shannon,

How about anerys = hotfudge and albinos = vanilla and combine them and make hot fudge sundaes :) he he

Scott

[d_virginiana]

... And here I thought all the delicious sounding morphs like caramels and lemon blasts had already been taken by the ball pythons.

[Stefan-A]

Next person here to hurl an insult gets to cool off for a while. Same if you return an insult.

[Jeff B]

Thats a beutiful snake Don, I'm going to go out on a limb and say that would be a melanistic, lol

here's my ordinoides.... unfortunately he passed away last winter during brumation

http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g302/ssssnakeluvr/DSCF8041.jpg

[ConcinusMan]

I am going to post a wanted Ad on KS for Black Bean Phantom Gasses.

If the price you're offering is right, I'm sure someone will have that for you. No problem.

[ssssnakeluvr]

Thanks Jeff!! had a very faint pattern, was a nice snake, doing well, good health, died for no apparent reason....

[Scott F]

Hey I'm thinking tutti fruitti for the erythristic albinos, what do you all think ?? lol

Scott

[ConcinusMan]

Sure, why not. It's not any less meaningful than calling a melanistic+amelanistic eastern a "snow"

[ConcinusMan]

Thanks Jeff!! had a very faint pattern, was a nice snake, doing well, good health, died for no apparent reason....

That's it. I'm not sending you any more northwesterns. You seem to have a knack for killing them. :p

I've never seen a melanistic northwestern that didn't have at least a faint stripe. Many of them aren't as dark as yours was either and look similar to "anery" radix. They tend to be a very dark charcoal gray and have visible stripes just slightly lighter than the rest of the snake. I had heard that Vancouver Island is known to have melanistic ordinoides.

[ssssnakeluvr]

Hey Richard, it was an older male, was in good health, but I got him several years ago at the reptile expo here from some friends that found him up there... :D

[ConcinusMan]

Yeah, well being an island, once the melanistic gene is established, it's not surprising that the effectively closed gene pool produces quite a few of them on the island. Heck, even the normal looking ones on the island are probably hets. I also hear that polymorphism is practically non-existent in that population. Very little variety.

[BUSHSNAKE]

I was hoping for a good arguement against mine..."mel vs anery" but all i got was sarcasim and "look at the picture" didnt prove anything to me. Scott and jeff your arguments are really poor...monkey see monkey do...your snows show this... It is the albino that is taking away the black pigment(in all cases,anery or mel call it what you want) AND THAT MAKES A BIG DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THEM BEING CALLED ANERY OR MELANISTIC

[Stefan-A]

Passive-aggressive crap deleted.

[ConcinusMan]

OK, how about if I keep it a bit simpler...


I was hoping for a good arguement against mine..."mel vs anery"

Not going to happen because there aren't any.

[RedSidedSPR]

I need your Star Trek photo Richard :D

[BUSHSNAKE]

tutti fruity

[Jeff B]

I was hoping for a good arguement against mine..."mel vs anery" but all i got was sarcasim and "look at the picture" didnt prove anything to me. Scott and jeff your arguments are really poor...monkey see monkey do...your snows show this... It is the albino that is taking away the black pigment(in all cases,anery or mel call it what you want) AND THAT MAKES A BIG DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THEM BEING CALLED ANERY OR MELANISTIC

Joe, the anerythristic red-sided taking away the reds and yellows away from the albino that has tons of reds and yellows, how do you explain that via a gene that increases melanin production alone?
Based on conventional naming and characterization (now I realize not everything always fits perfectly black and white into a model, but at the very least there is definately anery/axanthic type pigment knock out activity accounting for the red-sided snow)
Anerythristic=lacking red or red production genes knocked out or truncated
Melanistic=increased melanine or overproduction of melanine
Axanthic=lacking yellows or yellows and sometimes reds too production genes knocked out or truncated
An albino with reds or yellows needs another gene that takes that away like say; axanthic or anerythristic (xanthin and erythrin producing genes knocked out) to make a solid pigmentless snake, such as the iowa snow or red-sided snow. Adding a melanistic gene will not take away it simply smears the pattern like in the melanistic albino eastern, where the Schuett albino genes decrease in melanine production dominated the melanistic genes overproduction. The fact that the red-sided albino has tons of red and yellow that is completely stripped away makes for a very likely gene that was added that takes away xanthins and erythins and by best scientific definition that gene would be described as an axanthic or anerythristic gene, not melanistic. As I stated before, the arguement for the name to be axanthic instead of anerythristic would have more validity in my oppinion. The radix anery could have some increased melanine production as well and I won't argue that with you, but the fact that the Iowa snow has the yellow striped away still shows some anery/axanthic knockout or truncation to me. I could also be very easily pursuaded that what we call the anerythristic radix and what we can the axanthic could be flip-flopped because the blueish "axanthics" that I have all had faint yellowish dorsals. I think part of the confusion is the albino genes like the Nebraska and the Schuett albinos that are not complete melanine knock out albino genes, but rather they just truncate the melanine genes and make them almost unfunctional rather than completely wiping out melanine.
To summarize my stand/oppinion on these I have 3 main points below.
1. The anerythristic red-sided might better fit a model for axanthic based on the yellow and reds completely knocked out in combination with albino gene. Also the snake has a slate gray color in places where reds and yellow belong in the wild type. I personally see this gene as the least fitting into the melanistic model based on both looks and gene combination outcomes.
2. The plains anerythistic could go either way in my mind based on the look and the loss of yellow when combined with the iowa albino gene, but I think that these red radix albinos when combined with this gene will show the reds will be depleted as well. I will also say that there appears there could be increased melanin production as well, so this gene may not fit well into any of the three traditional nomenclatures very well but rather somewhere in the middle of a triangle or all three characteristi effects simultaneously occuring.
3. The "axanthic" plains is a whole nother animal in itself and there is still a lot of work to be done to characterize what is going on genotypically let alone phenotypically. I personally have a lot of interest in this gene.

Now I'm not saying I'm right, nobody here really has THE answers. We are all just playing guessing and naming games, essentially we are making hypothesis based on observations and previous accumulated human knowledge. We are not conducting genotyping and gene expression and biochemical pathways for pigment production research here.
I just don't really see the need for name calling and personal off topic critisism here, degrading someone elses character or whatever does not elevate your veiw, oppinion, arguement, ect.

[ConcinusMan]

I need your Star Trek photo Richard :D

You mean this one? Stefan actually started that one. I can't take credit. I'm just copy-catting him.

http://desmond.imageshack.us/Himg200/scaled.php?server=200&filename=doublefacepalmn.jpg&res=medium

[RedSidedSPR]

Yep. That's the one :D

[infernalis]

Yep. That's the one :D


Google image double facepalm

[RedSidedSPR]

Ah! Wasn't sure what the heck to search! I was never actually gonna use it, I just expressed it by describing the pic. But it'll come I'm handy...

[ConcinusMan]

This one comes in handy in forums too. (click) Let me google that for you (http://lmgtfy.com/?q=double+face+palm)

Oh crap. Off topic again. I'm really liking Jeff's answers about the anery subject though. Sounds like we're getting closer to the truth and that is it's not black and white. It's not just this or that.

[RedSidedSPR]

What the heck was that? :D you just googled for me... Weird.

[Lisa4john]

Joe said "Shannon didnt say it was an anery only thats how one would look BY DEFFINITION, its hard to compare redsides, plains, and easterns because in their natural form they dont look the same so why should the morphs look the same "

Here are some pics of anery garters (Plains, West Va and south Carolina Easterns, and red sideds).

Scott

I like the Red Sided best, beautiful snake. I wanna have one some day. :)

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

I have already said it but i honestly do not find the anerythristic label accurate in this case. This gene is far more complicated, it wipes all colors, blacks out the eyes, increases black pigments, and also affects the translucency of the scales, most noticeable under the chin. We see a similar effect in the translucent morph of california king snake. Honestly, I don't think it would be properly labeled as any of the simple a-prefixed gene names, whether it be anerythristic, axanthic or any other. One thing is for certain it sure is atypical. Anerythristic is exactly that... Lacking those specific pigments. I guess if you want to ignore all the other things wrong with this morph, it CAN be labeled as anerythristic, but I feel that is falling far short of it's full set of characteristics, description-wise. To me that would be similar to calling a melanistic the white-chinned black eyed morph. When I see these at shows they often aren't even labeled as Anery anyways...so I guess people just do what they want regardless of what we say.

[ConcinusMan]

I hear exactly what you're saying. I call those special concinnus' I find "anerythristic" (since they do lack red/orange pigment) but it seems to me like if they are truly anery, there should be no pigment at all where the orange would be, but that's not the case. The pigment is there, it just isn't red/orange and often, (not always) it's replaced by blue pigment. So it's a little more complicated than just simply taking away red pigment.

I still think "anerythristic" applies. It simply describes a normally red snake, that lacks red pigment. Obviously, there can be different "types" of anery.

[Lisa4john]

Whatever you call it, I like. Also I love the blue coloration like Smoke and Molly have, but the Silver was nice too. :)

[Invisible Snake]

Anerythrism Red pigmentation is not synthesized by xanthophores. Yellow pigmentation in the xanthophores is still present. Additionally, yellow pigments in the form of carotenoids are still retained in the xanthophores. This accumulates with age and may be a major contributing factor in the overall appearance of some animals. Typically, anerythristic reptiles appear as black and white animals, with varying amounts of yellow present.

[BUSHSNAKE]

Anerythrism Red pigmentation is not synthesized by xanthophores. Yellow pigmentation in the xanthophores is still present. Additionally, yellow pigments in the form of carotenoids are still retained in the xanthophores. This accumulates with age and may be a major contributing factor in the overall appearance of some animals. Typically, anerythristic reptiles appear as black and white animals, with varying amounts of yellow present.
In order for something to be anerythristic it has to be red or have red.
The anery plains and the anery red sided and the melanistic eastern are the same morph and here is why:
If they were anery when that trait meets an albino you are not seeing the removal of red...you are seeing the albino taking away the BLACK...that is what you see happening with the iowa and nebraska snow. Redsided snow and Shuett snow.

[BUSHSNAKE]

Why label something its CLEARLY not....i have a real problem with that cuz it causes confusion. If you cant get it right then whats the point.

[BUSHSNAKE]

And when melanistic easterns have a pattern(there are pictures of one on this forum go look) its whitish/greyish just like......you get my point

[BUSHSNAKE]

I dont know how to link it but under the thread "new sirtalis morph" you can see a melanistic eastern with a pattern....it was captive born so its pure Toledo Ohio melanistic

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

I don't think that the redsided morph is EXACTLY the same as the Mel eastern. In fact it cant be. Mainly because of the translucency it gives the scales which is not an effect seen in any other thamnophis morph that I know of aside from the plains. But you can call it melanistic and not be wrong. It just isn't a complete description. I do feel that the redsided morph and plains morph produce similar effects. But the melanistic eastern is a little different, same class as the wandering in terms of the way it lays out the pattern/black. It's similar to my pet peeve, which is when hypomelanistic animals get labeled "albino". The Nebraska plains morph, can be called a hypomelanistic. It is not an amel, as it still has melanin, just greatly reduced. and it is not albino because albino animals lack all pigment or by another definition is "abnormally white" and true albinism, by those definitions, is rare. The Iowa morph, I guess you call call that albino going by layman terms but I call it an amel and be done with it. I think mostly, the term albino is just outdated and it's a lot more complicated than "this is albino" and "this isnt". One thing people need to start doing though is removing their feelings for their morphs from the equation and be able to discuss how they named a morph without taking offense when it is brought into light that terminology is t necessarily ideal.

[Invisible Snake]

I would like to hear Scott, Jeff and Stefan's thoughts on the last several posts. Someone get them to post >_<

[Steveo]

I'm anery.

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

This is an old thread, and they have already chimed in. I love to discuss these types of things. Unfortunately some people tend to take it all the wrong way. You see it a lot in other forums as well.

[ConcinusMan]

I'm anery.

If it was normal for most humans to be red, I would agree. You can't take away something that wasn't there in the first place.

http://www.eyeshadowlipstick.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/viktorrolf-Daphne-Groeneveld-red-face.jpg

[Invisible Snake]

I know they have already chimed in like yourself when the thread first started, I'm just wondering if their opinions/thoughts have changed.

[ConcinusMan]

I would like to hear Scott, Jeff and ..... thoughts on the last several posts. Someone get them to post >_<

or log in once a year, for that matter.

[BUSHSNAKE]

Somewhere down the line when Steves b/w radix makes a snow then that will prove the anerythristics are not anerythristic and then ill shut up about it cuz then ill know i know what the heck im talking about.;)

[ConcinusMan]

Why wait? :p

[Lisa4john]

Wow, I didn't mean to open up a can of worms. :eek: I just wanted to see about these red sided snakes that aren't red, but blue or silver. Whatever you want to can them, I hope to be able to get one next spring/summer. I notice a lot of discussion about what they aren't, but I think I missed what they are. :confused: I'll just say I want a Blue Red Sided garter, simple enough for my layman's mind to understand, and hopefully you get my point... ;) ...Ok, enjoy your discussion. :D

[ConcinusMan]

Wow, I didn't mean to open up a can of worms.

But my snakes like worms.

[BUSHSNAKE]

i forgot i had a better picture of the melanistic eastern with a pattern so heres pics of a normal and patterned melanistic eatern

[BUSHSNAKE]

Melanistics...jet black usually w/ a patch of white on their chin..anery's have a pattern...take a good long look at the pics !! Mels have a pattern when in shed, anerys always have their pattern. End of discussion (arguing this is a moot point) lol

Scott
I think its safe to say that this is false information

[Tommytradix]

i need some anery red sides lol

[Eddie]

I cant post pics!!

[sirtalis01]

I think no one can

[sirtalis01]

i need some anery red sides lol
So do i lol

[Tommytradix]

i havent been able to post pics for more than a month. i tried from 2 different laptops and my phone.

[guidofatherof5]

i havent been able to post pics for more than a month. i tried from 2 different laptops and my phone.

Do you get an error message when you try to post?

[Tommytradix]

yes it just tells me what file types are allowed but its the same pics i have already posted to this site before so i know i can post it but it wont.

[Tommytradix]

here is the code i get when i try to post to the gallery
Error creating thumbnail! Error code: 127

Command:

"/usr/bin/X11/mogrify" +profile "*" -size 100x95 -quality 100 -geometry 100x95 -unsharp 10 '/home/tham/public_html/thamphotos/data/500/thumbs/13521914_1717863308474919_5649150929604230489_n.jp g'

[guidofatherof5]

I too am having trouble uploading photos. Please send that error message to Boots so he's aware of your problem.

[scarface27]

i need some anerys

[Albert Clark]

Wow! What a great thread to be bumped back up from 2011! A wealth of genetic controversy from so many veterans. A excellent and must read for all. Thanks.