Toothless Pics

[katach]

This is my husband's little cutie.

[RdubSnider]

Very nice looking snake

[RedSidedSPR]

Wow. Awesome! Solid black with that yellow stripe! WHat kinda snake?

[kibakiba]

It looks like a Puget sound garter. Or a no-side-striped northwestern. The face looks more puget-y though. Northwesterns rarely have such bold facial features.

[RedSidedSPR]

Those were my guesses too.

[katach]

From what i've seen online and what everyone has said on the forum she's puget sound.

[neutron]

This is a Puget sound garter with tendenz to melanismus, she is wonderful!!
I love pickeringii!

[katach]

Thanks!! She's character.

[ssssnakeluvr]

I would say puget also... very nice one

[Mommy2many]

Very nice!

[CJPythons]

That is funny, I have a Leopard Gecko I named Toothless.

[ConcinusMan]

From what i've seen online and what everyone has said on the forum she's puget sound.

Correct. "Toothless" is certainly is a puget sound garter.(T. sirtalis pickeringi) I've never seen them represented with quite the same colors as yours and I've never seen them without lateral stripes. They're quite variable by locality so it's not too surprising.

Thought I would use this opportunity to once again drive home the fact that pugets are mostly not the brilliant sky-blue snakes that many people seem to think that they are. The very blue ones are simply a locality-specific morph and are a minority among all puget sound garters.

I've seen many examples but never any from your corner of the Puget Sound. Nice to see something different.:)

[Mommy2many]

I love the name, Toothless!

[katach]

We measured everyone today and she is 23in.

[RedSidedSPR]

He's my favorite. Love his colors!

[katach]

Thanks! She is pretty cool! Very clever and inquisitive.

[RedSidedSPR]

Oh. Sorry. I mean SHE is my favorite :D

[guidofatherof5]

Thanks! She is pretty cool! Very clever and inquisitive.

Clever and inquisitive.
You must be talking about a garter snake ;)

[katach]

Yeah that does describe all of them, but Toothless seems to be the most out of our bunch.

[BLUESIRTALIS]

I would love to have some of those they are awesome.

[katach]

I wish we had a male I would love to breed both our pugets. They are very cool!

[kibakiba]

They are really cool. I'd buy a baby from ya, if you did end up breeding one. ;) I've been wanting a puget since I got Snakey.

[RedSidedSPR]

Jeez, so would I. Love those.

[katach]

I wonder if there are any puget owners in the area with a male we could do a stud thing.

[RedSidedSPR]

Well, there's several garter-gurus in Washington... I dont know.

[kibakiba]

Like me! :D
Not really.

[katach]

Maybe we'll to where we got these two and see if we get a male. Not really sure I want to have another until we get more space though.

[RedSidedSPR]

"get" as in catch? That works. Heck, thats what I'd do.

[katach]

Maybe next season after we find homes for the baby NWs. We have limited space right now.

[RedSidedSPR]

Pfft. That I can relate to.:rolleyes:

[katach]

Yeah, we live in a 1bd apartment. Usually it's 3 of us, but during the summer it 5. Space is tight.

[RedSidedSPR]

No kidding. I feel ya.


...but surely you can fit one more....... nevermind forget it.:rolleyes:

:D

[katach]

I wish we could, but we would need another tank. As is, once the babies go we have to move our sub adult male out of the enclosure from the females. No hybriding and all. Those would be some interesting babies though, puget/ NW. I don't want that to happen though.

[brain]

I wish we had a male I would love to breed both our pugets. They are very cool!

I would just like to find a gravid fem out here on the island. I come across T.s. fitchi and T. ordinoides all the time.

[katach]

We went hiking near belfair in mason county, and found our two big beauties!

[ConcinusMan]

Those would be some interesting babies though, puget/ NW. I don't want that to happen though.

Don't worry, that would never happen. T. ordinoides will not hybridize with T.sirtalis. It's physically impossible. They are just too physically different and genetically distant from one another. The sexual organs are incompatible. You can safely keep them together and they would never crossbreed. The only species that could potentially cross with T. ordinoides, is T. atratus.

[RedSidedSPR]

Wow I didn't know that...

[ConcinusMan]

I would just like to find a gravid fem out here on the island. I come across T.s. fitchi and T. ordinoides all the time.

Are you sure you're only seeing T.s. fitchi ? There are red phase pugets up there you know. Very, very similar to fitchi and they share the same range, especially near the WA border and westward in B.C.

Red phase puget. Vancouver Island:

http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTLbk-FN4cz--zpwxi9RFFGNMEv_JTFlVHLJakxRDGgrCUDRIf5

[RedSidedSPR]

Wow... had no idea! Thats cool... Looks like a fitchi lol.

[ConcinusMan]

And that's where the line between two sirtalis subspecies gets blurred. I don't think it's a coincidence that this happens where both occur. However, it's not the only place where red phase pugets are found. They're also found (with much less red) in parts of WA well outside the range of fitchi.

[katach]

Thanks Richard, I feel better about keeping my male NW in with the girls now.

[ConcinusMan]

You have nothing to worry about. These snakes share dens in the wild, and tanks in captivity. They have never crossed to anyone's knowledge. In the wild or captivity. If you did manage it, you would go down in the history books as the first to accomplish it. I did read a scientific paper about this years ago. Apparently it wouldn't work due to the very different shape of the hemipenes on these two species.

[katach]

:D Thanks!

[brain]

Red phase puget. Vancouver Island:

http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTLbk-FN4cz--zpwxi9RFFGNMEv_JTFlVHLJakxRDGgrCUDRIf5

You might have something there the more I look at what I have ... maybe T.s. pickeringii.

However, what I have do not have the blue trait. Now from about two inch from the chin is off with to blue and then it gets almost pure black as you get to the tail.

All four (2.1.?) have the red spots.

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//704/medium/20110722_23.JPG

[ConcinusMan]

Those are pugets. Fitchi has a wider dorsal stripe that is typically very yellow and all the stripes are well defined with sharp edges. I wouldn't expect blue on a puget at all unless you got it from the extreme south end of Puget Sound and even there they aren't all blue. I don't know of any other part of their range where blue ones can be found. I've said this a million times. Blue pugets are the exception. Most are not blue at all. Heck, the red phase ones are more widespread. The blue ones you see in the trade are a fairly localized color phase found from S. Olympia/Ft. Lews to Dupont, WA. That's a very small part of their range. Finding blue ones elsewhere is highly unlikely.

Take away the red spotting and what you have pictured there, is very typically colored puget sound garters. You'll find only the red phase pugets in northern WA and Vancouver Island/B.C. You won't find blue and you won't find them without the red where you are.

It can get quite confusing. The line between what is a red phase puget and what is a fitchi gets quite blurry up there. They likely cross too, since they're both T. sirtalis (and we're "splitting hairs") but pure fitchi's usually aren't found in such a wet climate. Here in WA fitchi lives on the desert side of the state whereas red phase pugets / concinnus' are on the wetter west side. I'm pretty sure the same is true in B.C. I think fitchi is east of mountains or found far inland away from the coastal weather influence.

[brain]

Those are pugets. I wouldn't expect blue on a puget at all unless you got it from the extreme south end of Puget Sound and even there they aren't all blue. Take away the red spotting and what you have pictured there, is very typically colored puget sound garters. It can get quite confusing. I think fitchi is east of mountains or found far inland away from the coastal weather influence.

The largest fem a small male came from near a creek behind the Tulalip Reservation the other two are from Deception Pass State Park here on the island.
Therefore, I have been thinking the Puget is a blue, but that is not the case, Ok. T. s. sirtalis "Florida blue" can be of the blue coloration and the Puget “blue” is a rear case more likely the red phase, got it.
I found a melanistic in my yard, sometime back, so that could have been Puget or Wander (ordinoides)? :confused:
Thanks for say this a million and 1 times. :o

[ConcinusMan]

It would be very easy to determine if the melanistic one was a sirtalis or an ordinoides. The scales and head proportions of those two are different. It's already well known that in B.C., melanistic ordinoides are quite common especially on Vancouver Island. If you're talking about the one you showed us pics of a while back, I'm sure it was a northwestern.

And yes, saying that pugets are blue is like saying easterns are blue just because they are that color in parts of Florida. We all know that easterns aren't blue. Just some of them and only from certain locations. Same goes for Pugets.

[katach]

Here are some updated pics of Toothless. Some good close-ups! Her color is a little more green than Cotton. These are pretty true to her coloring.

[katach]

A few more.

[ConcinusMan]

Another fine example of the variety in Puget sound garters. That turquoise throat is also present in T.s. concinnus but only ones from SW WA and the WA coast. (Big Bertha from Clark Co. WA has it) Interesting.

I want to ad that T.s. concinnus is highly variable too, in certain locations, or is variable depending on what part of their range they are from. Like blue pugets, the very red, orange headed, or brightly colored snakes we typically see in the trade do not necessarily represent the majority of them. I've been able to show you guys how different they can look and show you some of that variety in the subspecies that you've never seen before.:)

[brain]

The varied colors will always lead me to my confusion. I look at Toothless and can barely see any red spots, then compare what I have I see s a very close resemblance to the T.s.fitchior even T.s. concinnus.

Like the other tread on SF Garters where some would same T.s. infernalis is just T.s. tertaenia without bars, all very confusing. I guess scale count would always be the precise way to tell them apart.

I guess after time I will be able to see the difference.

[ConcinusMan]

Yes, I hear you. Supposedly, the only thing that makes a subspecies is morphology and range, and sometimes, a difference in habitat preference. Even though your snake does look a lot like a fitchi, where they are located tells me they're not. The differences in morphology are very subtle but they are there. But there's no denying that range indicates that your red spotted snakes are pickeringi.

Just remember that technically, oregon red spotted, pugets, valley garters.. they're all the same species so it's really splitting hairs to say which subspecies is which. Some people question the validity of subspecies altogether. These are all essentially the same T. sirtalis. Once again, the only difference is morphology and range.

I went through this before about the difference between a laterally striped concinnus and a fitchi. Those two also look so much alike it can be difficult to tell the difference. The only thing that helps you to become very good at distinguishing the two, is to have personally seen many examples of both. Also, they're ranges only overlap in one or two very small areas. In those areas, snakes show characteristics of both. (intergrades). Fitchi found inside the range of infernalis is a good example. The two look more like each other in those areas so they're hard to tell apart. Similarly, pugets, oregon red spots, and fitchi look more like each other, in the areas where they overlap or come close to each other's range. It's easier to just think of them all as T. sirtalis that vary in morphology according to location and genetic isolation from each other.

Anyway, once you've seen enough northwest fitchi's you can spot the difference between those and concinnus or pickeringi right away. The colors aren't quite the same, and there's other more subtle clues.

Let me show you what a fitchi looks like in WA state. (see the video and you'll see it's different than your snakes) Only in the columbia river gorge near the intermountain zone, are intergrades found because for the most part, fitchi are east side snakes, concinnus are west of the mountains. There's just a small zone where snakes show characteristics of both. And on the WA coast, concinnus' look more like pickeringi and tend to have lateral stripes too.

Fitchi pretty much look like this snake in the video in WA and Canada. Fitchi would be found much farther inland. The farther inland you go, fitchi will dominate and you'll stop seeing pickeringi. Fitchi stay away from the coast where you and I are, and prefer a drier climate than pickeringi.

T.s. fitchi. Take a good look at the head and facial markings, and the color / stripe definition. You can see it's different than your snakes.

tGjL8sN5Fxs

[katach]

Toothless has no red. She only has the very bright yellow turning to green dorsal stripe, and a almost stitched green lateral markings. Cotton is the same. They are jet black otherwise.

[ConcinusMan]

I guess scale count would always be the precise way to tell them apart.

No, that wouldn't work. They are both sirtalis' and so the scales are the same. The first sirtalis ever described was of course, easterns. Then as snakes were found as you go west, any that share key physical traits, especially scale counts, were classified as T. sirtalis subspecies. If the scales were different, they wouldn't have been classifed as T. sirtalis.

Of course, DNA would be the best way to find the true relationships. This might come as a surprise, but DNA reveals that in spite of their close proximity to each other, and their superficial resemblance, SF garters and CA red sides are actually more closely related to other sirtalis' in other parts of the country, some of which look nothing like them, than they are to each other.

[ConcinusMan]

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//704/medium/20110722_23.JPG


The varied colors will always lead me to my confusion. I look at Toothless and can barely see any red spots

That's funny, I didn't think toothless had any red spots. He's not a red phase puget. Of course, he's not a blue one either. So, why not look at the subtle clues. Take a look at the head/facial markings, the pale greenish color, and the lateral stripes. They're really not so different.

http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/attachments/general-talk/2074d1309761135-cotton-pics-dsc02056.jpg

Once again, T.s fitchi. Starting to see what I mean? Look at enough of both and you can see it gets easier to tell.

http://img850.imageshack.us/img850/9594/unled11ma.jpg

[ConcinusMan]

To add to the confusion, and yet to simplify I.D. :

Laterally striped T.s. concinnus. Once again, range is the key to eliminating the confusion. This particular phenotype in T.s. concinnus is found in extreme SW WA staying close to the Columbia River then northward only in coastal WA. T.s. fitchi and T.s. pickeringi do not share this range, just as T.s. fitchi does not live on Vancouver Island. The farther north along the WA coast you travel, the more they begin to look more like T.s. pickeringi
http://www.wildherps.com/images/herps/standard/015752_red-spotted_gartersnake.jpg

It's just easier to think of them all as the same species with gradual changes in morphology. Over time, geographic separation due to natural barriers and genetic isolation creates the various subspecies.

[ConcinusMan]

If it seems confusing, then good. It is confusing. More DNA sampling of all garter snakes is needed to get a clearer picture of the true relationships and that work has only begun.

Best to just get this book. Amazon.com: The Garter Snakes: Evolution and Ecology (Animal Natural History Series) (9780806128207): Douglas A. Rossman, Neil B. Ford, Richard A. Seigel: Books (http://www.amazon.com/Garter-Snakes-Evolution-Ecology-Natural/dp/0806128208)


If you've read the older version of this book, you would see how our understanding of garter snakes (and all life in general) has changed dramatically by using DNA, since the first version, which was based solely on morphology and range that we can see which has a high degree of plasticity. What we can't see is more important, and that can only be revealed by decades of DNA sampling until all garter snakes have been DNA tested and mapped.


(http://www.jstor.org/pss/176912)

[ConcinusMan]

I've been getting new reports of the various puget morphs from places in WA state. Apparently, most pugets from near the Seattle area are the light greenish white striped color morph but to a lesser degree, there are a few red phase pugets occasionally found in the area around Bellvue. The spots are small orange flecks. Not quite as red as Vancouver B.C. red phase snakes but still it's interesting. And we already know that red phase dominates the north sound and Vancouver B.C. In the south sound in Thurston and Pierce Counties, blue phase dominates. What I lack now is enough reports to get a clear picture of what pugets look like on the west side of the sound.

[katach]

If it helps, the ones we have are the only colorings I've seen. I've lived in the same area for almost 30yrs.

[ConcinusMan]

And that's the first ones I've seen that look quite like yours. That's good and I appreciate the info. I forget exactly where it was found though.

[RedSidedSPR]

I've NEVER seen one that lIke that..... i love it though!!!

[katach]

We found these on a hiking path in Mason co.

[brain]

So Toothles is not the standard Puget? And what I have are more likely, humm..

[ConcinusMan]

there is no "standard" puget. I'm just saying I've never seen one that had such a yellow dorsal stripe, and almost no lateral stripes. But then again, I've never seen examples from her area before. she says they're all like that around there. Kind of interesting. Based on what I do know, I would expect at least a few red phase ones there. Likewise, I had never even known that concinnus' existed that completely lack red or orange are instead blue, but low and behold, they do exist and aren't too rare.:cool:

But your (Brain) snakes are very, very typical examples of red phase pugets from your county and/or Vancouver Island. In fact, I would expect only red phase to be found that far north or in Vancouver B.C. and adjacent coastline in Wa.

Oh wait. Just noticed Katach said they're from Mason Co. Still, she should have them in her home county too and I would expect at least some of them to be red phase.

[katach]

We've only seen them in higher elevations. My husband has lived here just a long as I have and has only seen the same coloration and in higher elevations.

[ConcinusMan]

As soon as I have time I'm going to create a map and mark the locations of the various pugets found around their range and show pics of them.

[katach]

It will be interesting to see.

Ours are from a hiking trail near Twahno.

[katach]

A couple of Toothless chowing down. and her looking happily at me after she was done. She is the only one who will eat while being held.

http://desmond.imageshack.us/Himg442/scaled.php?server=442&filename=imag0146s.jpg&res=medium
http://desmond.imageshack.us/Himg811/scaled.php?server=811&filename=imag0154k.jpg&res=medium

[EasternGirl]

I love that snake Kat! She's a real cutie! Love that yellow stripe...and look at that face in that last pic! Great pic...What kind of camera are you using? You guys have such great cameras for pics on here...I really need to invest in a better camera....but money...ugh!

Oh and btw...anyone know where I can find a husband that loves snakes too?...lol.

[kibakiba]

There are plenty of fish in the snakes water dish! :D

[guidofatherof5]

Toothless is awesome.

[katach]

I had to use my phone's camera for those. Otherwise I use a Sony Cybershot DSC-H2. I love my camera! My phone is an Evo 4G. Out had a piety good camera, but the lens leaves a little to be desired for.

[EasternGirl]

Okay...time for people to recommend good inexpensive cameras for Marnie...writing down the Cybershot...

More pics of Toothless please...

[PINJOHN]

Oh and btw...anyone know where I can find a husband that loves snakes too?...lol.

Steve is available :eek::D:p

[PINJOHN]

this has been a very enjoyable thread, it would have great with just the photos of that fabulous snake but was further enhanced by the reams of interesting information supplied thanks to all involved

SORRY Marnie but i am afraid i am spoken for, besides you women only chase me because of my George Clooney looks, not for myself :cool:

[ConcinusMan]

So modest...:rolleyes:

Toothless looks great. I can see you're taking very good care of him/her (I forget)

[katach]

Thanks! She is fat and happy for sure!

[EasternGirl]

Oh Steve...if only you weren't half way around the country! ;). Don't forget to PM me with some recommendations for good cameras...I don't know where I would start a thread for that...

More toothless pics!!

[ConcinusMan]

Okay...time for people to recommend good inexpensive cameras for Marnie...writing down the Cybershot...


Nikon Coolpix models offer a variety of choices so you can choose the features you want, or get one that doesn't have certain capabilities, and the prices adjust accordingly. Anyway, no matter which one you get, the photos they take are outstanding, and they're not so complicated to use as some other brands. IMO Nikon Coolpix cameras (many different models to choose from) offer the best value per dollars spent. They range from around $70 to hundreds, depending on which one you choose.

I just love my S600 model and that model is under $200. I've seen them as low as $129. But yeah, there's plenty of existing threads where we discuss cameras. Try using advanced search to find the threads.

[katach]

So Toothless is very true to her breed. She decided that Willow getting the first pinkie today was unacceptable. She had to fix that by stealing it out of her mouth. No injuries, but Willow was in a bit of a huff after that. Toothless didn't get her second pinkie until everyone else had eaten both of theirs. Hopefully she learned her lesson....(probably not though :D)

[EasternGirl]

Wish we could have seen that!

[katach]

It was quick, and I wanted to get them apart before anything happened. If Bill wasn't asleep he could have snapped a photo, but he was in sleepy land. :)

[katach]

Toothless had a very rough day today. She went opaque about a week ago. Her eyes cleared up 3 days after. All normal up to today. I had to work today and I got a phone call from Bill, which is unusual. He said Toothless can't shed. About 3cm of her tail had shed but she couldn't get her head going. I told him to put her in a shed box and keep an eye on her, help her get it off ASAP. He spent 2hrs picking and peeling and finally got her clean. She is very tired and is in her hide. She looks beautiful of coarse. I'll let her rest for today and then take some photos tomorrow evening.

[EasternGirl]

I'm so sorry to hear about her rough day, Kat. I'm very glad to hear that everything worked out in the end. It can be very scary when stuff like that happens.

[katach]

Thanks.

[katach]

44424443
Took some pics of Toothless chillin' on the bed today.

[katach]

Toothless figured out that the bed with all the blankets off makes a great treadmill.

https://www.youtube.com/watch? v=YzDpLf4LQA4&feature=youtube_gdata_player

[guidofatherof5]

Looks like you've got your video set on "Private"

[katach]

Fixed it!

[guidofatherof5]

Looks like training for the Garter Olympics. :D

[katach]

She just likes to keep her girlish figure. :D

[kibakiba]

I like how she's all a blur of the video, supersonic snakie!

[EasternGirl]

That's funny! Go toothless go!

[mikem]

love it! :cool:

edit: wow, just looked at the pictures of toothless you posted at the beginning of this thread... gorgeous! she's a good looking snake, for sure!

[katach]

Thank you! Her "sister" Cotton looks the same. They are very pretty girls!