What happened to my little garter :(

[XXxxXXxx]

Ok so i look in my garters enclosure this morning and he is pretty much curled up
with his mouth about 40% open , so i quickly opened the enclosure up and well
yeah you guessed it :( He was dead , Completely limp body and no breathing that i can see...

Yesterday it was a very hot day (27C) and both of my snakes enclosures reached high temps (at one point 29C) so of course i turned there heat mats off and opened the enclosures up and let cooler air blow in from a fan which really only got it down to maybe 28c - 27c and the temps were like that for a few hours (maybe 12 noon till 10 at night ) and then i went to sleep at around 12 and the temps were 26-27 but i left the fan pointed at the enclosures to try and keep temps down as it was still hot in the house and then turned the heat mats on (which are on thermostats anyway so wouldn't have made the enclosures hot)

So this "morning" i turned the light on at 11 (like usual, but didn't actually look for my snake as i had to do something for 10 minutes) and then at 11.20 went to have a look at him and found him dead , I checked the temp and it was around 25-26 (air temp)

A little about my snake / enclosure ...

Actual enclosure - Vivexotic Modx36 (3ft x 3ft x 3ft)
Substrate - coconut fibre ( mostly dried out , some damp / moist)
Lighting - exo terra 2.0 compact UVA/B
Heating - small heat mat at the back of enclosure , 11w
Plants - 1 "large" fern and 2 spider plants , live moss (damp)

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Feeding / water -
Has been feeding on lance fish , 2 around every 5-7 days (1 Covered in vitamin supplement , the other in the water 100%)

Water is always available to my snakes , bowl is cleaned about twice a week .

Also the enclosure was sprayed with about 500-1000ml of water every week or so and he really loved it...




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He is a lively snake and moves around pretty much all day and is VERY friendly and when i opened the enclosure up to do something he would come up to me and crawl on to my hand and come out for a few minutes ..

But yeah i've just lost the nicest snake i will ever have had and i don't know why :( I'm incredibly upset about this

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Oh and a little about me ,
I have been an animal lover my whole life ...
Started off with dogs , cats and mice and then when i was 12 i got 2 turtles and then moved on to fish keeping also and have done very well with both turtles and fish ( now have 9 turtles of different species in 3 different tanks , 8ft tank and 2 4ft tanks and then have 2 coldwater fish tanks and 3 warm water tanks and a warm water pond..

This little garter was my first snake and have had him around 6 months with no problems with his health , I had been doing research on many different reptiles and then this garter was the best choice so i got him and really was the best choice ...
I also got a corn snake which i took from a bad owner and then fixed all the problems in his enclosure and he is now in great health also



I have probably forgot to mention a lot , also i will upload pictures or the enclosure or the snake :( if needed


So any idea's on why my snake went away ?

[snakehill]

Soooo Sorry!!! I lost my baby red sided recently and I feel like I lost a child!!! Don't be discouraged! Snakes (Garters are the best!) are one of the most AMAZING creatures on this planet!!!!!:(

[Mix]

I'm so sorry to hear that. It sounds almost exactly like the losses I have recently suffered - no obvious reasons, unexpected death.
I don't know what happened to mine, but my best guess was the fish they were eating. Even though they were all from 'safe' sources, there must have been something off.

Don't be put off, though. My new snakes really help to remind me every day of why I love keeping these little guys so much.

[BLUESIRTALIS]

Sorry for your losses.

[RedSidedSPR]

Me too. Unexplained deaths suck.

[guidofatherof5]

Very sorry to hear about your loss.
Those surprise deaths are always the hardest to take and understand.

The only question I have is on the fish you are feeding.
Was it on a fish diet only?
I was unable to find out if Lance fish contain Thiaminase, which would be a concern.
What part of the country/world do you live in. I'm guessing not the U.S. since you list temps. in Celsius.
Thiamin - Caresheets (http://www.thamnophis.com/caresheets/index.php?title=Thiamin),
http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/husbandry/6654-safe-fish-list.html
Sand lance - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sand_lance)

[RdubSnider]

Very sorry for your loss. Could be the fish could be from the high heat. But sometimes they Just pass and its nothing you could have done different. Hope you get another

[RedSidedSPR]

Anyone else see that he supplemented ever time he fed? Would that do something?

[ConcinusMan]

Anyone else see that he supplemented ever time he fed?

You don't want to do that. If you're talking about frozen lance fish packaged as fish food, I believe it's already supplemented.

[RedSidedSPR]

Yeah. Not sure if that's the problem, just pointing it out

[XXxxXXxx]

Yes they were frozen / thawed lance fish , I think lance fish are the same as silver sides or at least very close in relation ..

I don't think they were already supplemented though , people use them for feeding to carnivorous fish so i don't think they would put supplements in.

That is what the shops around here sell for feeding to snakes like garters and yes it was a fish only diet , i was going to buy some earth worms the next time i was at the shop but that doesn't look like its going to happen :(

I know a lot of people say mice are the best but i grew up loving mice and such , so feeding small ones to a snake isn't what i want to be doing ...

I also just thought that it could be a vitamin D3 over consumption that caused a problem , The supplement has D3 in it as well at Vitamin A i believe and with me having a Uv bulb in there it could be too much D3 ?? But i don't know if that could have done anything at all ..

Oh and yes i don't live in the US , Im in the UK ..

[snakehill]

I know how you feel about the mice issue! ;)

[RedSidedSPR]

I don't care what people say, mice are not needed. As long as you mix it up. Fish, worms, supps, etc. It's not a natural diet, so obviously, they're just fine without it. there's less of a risk though.

Don't get me wrong, they're a great diet, i really want to start feeding them, but it's not needed.

As for the supps.. you're only supposed to do it once a month or so. So that could've been a problem.

[ConcinusMan]

Yes they were frozen / thawed lance fish , I think lance fish are the same as silver sides or at least very close in relation ..

I don't think they were already supplemented though , people use them for feeding to carnivorous fish so i don't think they would put supplements in.

They do supplement them. Read the ingredients carefully. I have yet to find any that weren't supplemented. Sally's, Ocean Nutrition, they all do it.

I don't supplement at all, other than what they get from occasional silverside feedings. It's best just to give them as varied a diet as possible. You don't really need to supplement if your snakes get whole fish and rodents. Supplementing is a slippery slope and a balancing act. It's too easy to oversupplement or throw things out of balance. And no, rodents are not absolutely necessary. Just makes it easier for your snake to get a balanced diet.

I'm not saying this killed your snake. Not at all. If it was a very young snake, then I don't know a single person here who has raised litters, that this hasn't happened to. Sudden deaths happen for no apparent reason sometimes.

Did his skin look wrinkled at all? retained sheds happen, especially with babies and it's usually fatal. They always die curled up with mouth open when that happens.

[RedSidedSPR]

I'm not saying it killed him either. Just pointing it out.


other than what they get from occasional silverside feedings.

Are you saying they supp those? I use them kinda alot...

[guidofatherof5]

I beginning to think that a worm, mice diet may be the most balanced and safe.
I'm having less and less confidence in the quality and safety of the fish I have available to me.
I might have to start fishing again. Catch a bunch of bluegill, fillet them and freeze them for 3 months. I know a farmer that has a farm pond full of them. He also uses no chemicals on his farm. He goes by the Natural Farmer. Might be a safer place to get some fish.

[XXxxXXxx]

They do supplement them. Read the ingredients carefully. I have yet to find any that weren't supplemented. Sally's, Ocean Nutrition, they all do it.



I havn't used any like that for a few months , The last ones i bought just came in a plastic zip-lock bag ..

I used to feed them the ocean nutrition ones and never used supplements with them ...

So i don't know maybe they were already supplemented , but would they have the right vitamins in ? Reptiles would need different vitamins to tropical fish ...

Also what do you do with dead reptiles ? I have never had this situation , do you guys just put them in a box and bury them like you would with smaller animals ??

And thanks for all the reply's guys , this forum seems to be very active !!

[ConcinusMan]

I just flush the small ones like you would a goldfish.:o

[Mix]

I boxed and buried mine. I haven't seen anywhere that that's not ok...

[Sonya610]

I just flush the small ones like you would a goldfish.:o

Nice sensitive answer there Richard. : )

[snakeman]

garters thrive on frogs.But they are way too hard to come by.Fish and worms are not enough.Thats why a rodent diet is the safest next best thing.I would go with live goldfish before I would go frozen/thawed. F/T Fish will always be a gamble.

[infernalis]

The answer to the underlying question: What you described sounds like an overheated snake.

When babies (most sensative to heat) get "baked" they coil up and the bottom jaw drops. (mouth agape)

Last summer when my house got hot, I moved all the baby garters to my basement.

[RedSidedSPR]

How hot is too hot?

[infernalis]

How hot is too hot?

Over 100 degrees (F) for a long period.

However I just did the conversion, and 82 (F) is not lethal in itself, other factors must be involved here.

[XXxxXXxx]

The answer to the underlying question: What you described sounds like an overheated snake.

When babies (most sensative to heat) get "baked" they coil up and the bottom jaw drops. (mouth agape)

Last summer when my house got hot, I moved all the baby garters to my basement.

well it didn't reach even near the 100F you mentioned , I think 29c is around 85F and that is the highest it got but it did sit like that for maybe 6 hours ..

Also he was around 2.5 feet , So wasn't actually a "baby" but i don't know the actual age as i only had him about 6 months ...

But his mouth was open and he was pretty coiled up ( but not as coiled up as snakes can go)

So do you think it was the heat that killed it ?

Don't snakes usually bury under substrate if they get overheated ? He was acting normal before this morning...

[RedSidedSPR]

Well, as for the size/age thing, My male is about 3 and he's not that long :D
I wouldn't call yours a baby

But I really don't know what happened.

[infernalis]

Was the cage exposed to direct sunlight at the time?

[XXxxXXxx]

Was the cage exposed to direct sunlight at the time?

No , I had the curtains closed and the only light was from the bulb in the viv ...

[flickerfriend]

Im so sorry to hear that!

[Simland]

I'm not the most experienced keeper, but I don't think it's the heat. Not with the temperatures you listed. If there were temperature spikes that you're not aware of, however...

My garter seems to do best when his air temp is around 28-29C and he's a northern specimen.

[guidofatherof5]

This thread is over 5 years old and the O.P. hasn't been on the forum since 6-29-11. Just for information.

[Albert Clark]

Very interesting thread! Great read.