Hypo/Pastel Checkered gave birth today-ironically

[Jeff B]

Ironic because I had just posted pics of her in another post by Brad Chambers in the discussion of his new babies, must have been all that good carma and wishes last night, spurred her on to give birth.
Anyway she only had 3 babies and 2 jelly beans, but the babies are very, very large. I figured she would have a small litter as she is a small sized snake for a 2 yr old female. Of the 3 babies one is maybe a shade lighter in color and he popped male, but all 3 have the same light olive top of the head as the mother and pretty red/orange eyes, not sure if the one is a pastel or they all are, or none are, but none are granites, although 3 is too small a sample to make any conclutions or inferences. This is however what I expected, the sire is my male granite checkered so all 3 of these babies are 100% het for granite, that we know for sure. I think it is doubtfull that the granite and pastels that Brad proved out are the same gene, although the phenotype does have similar aberant pattern and color changes from the wild type, but the granite is more radical. It will be interesting to see what comes from breeding these potientially double hets back to each other or to mom or to the granite gene. Who knows how those two genes will react to each other, but it is neat to see Brads new babies whether they are a new recessive gene or "supers" of a co-dom, and it's nice knowing that the dame of this litter is from that same stock so potientially these 3 babies could be double het for granite and Brads pastel gene, anyway you slice it that is a lot of potiential to be excited about.

[RdubSnider]

Those three are very nice looking. The potential with them is pretty exciting. Congratulations

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

jeff... is she a pastel? She doesn't look like one.. maybe the camera washes out the glow... but I don't see an erractic neck pattern or head pattern... not that they all have to have it... I have had pastels born with normal head patterns but that's the normalest (new word, I invented it) looking pastel I have seen yet! I think is cute that the one little baby is literally a spitting image of her!

[Jeff B]

Well, Brad sold her to me as a hypo aka now called pastel 2 years ago, I assume she is a sibbling to the pair that just produced his new babies, so I guess your question is for him to answer, I'm just along for the ride and I'm not going to get all bent out of shape over weather she is or is not a hypo/pastel either way, but I hope next generation I get the same result he did, but I guess we shall see, either way the sire is my granite so the babies are 100% het for granite, that is garanteed as she was raised up by me and virgin untill this spring and I own no other checkered males besides my granite. She has dulled up some since she was a baby, so I don't know if she is a co-dom pastel or "het" recessive pastel or what. shrug. I guess if Brads gene is recessive then she would also be het and these babies would also be 50% possible het for Brads recessive pastel gene and 100% het granite.

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

Well, Brad sold her to me as a hypo aka now called pastel 2 years ago, I assume she is a sibbling to the pair that just produced his new babies, so I guess your question is for him to answer, I'm just along for the ride and I'm not going to get all bent out of shape over weather she is or is not a hypo/pastel either way, but I hope next generation I get the same result he did, but I guess we shall see, either way the sire is my granite so the babies are 100% het for granite, that is garanteed as she was raised up by me and virgin untill this spring and I own no other checkered males besides my granite. She has dulled up some since she was a baby, so I don't know if she is a co-dom pastel or "het" recessive pastel or what. shrug. I guess if Brads gene is recessive then she would also be het and these babies would also be 50% possible het for Brads recessive pastel gene and 100% het granite.

lol... I wouldn't get bent out of shape either... she's a good lookin' snake! It was probably more apparent when she was a baby that shes a pastel.

[BChambers]

Well, at the time I was sure about which babies were pastel and which weren't. Needless to say, i'm starting to second guess all that now!

[charles parenteau]

Congratulation Jeff!!

[Spankenstyne]

Jeff nice lookin babies at any rate. I'm of the same mindset I'm also not gonna get bent outta of shape either way but it's also such a mystery that is kinda fun to try and figure out.


Well, at the time I was sure about which babies were pastel and which weren't. Needless to say, i'm starting to second guess all that now!

Haha I hear ya, I've been doing the same for some time now.

[ssssnakeluvr]

Congrats on the babies!!

[RicMartin]

Congrats, Jeff.

[RedSidedSPR]

nice, congrats

[ConcinusMan]

They look normal to me. Including mom. But whatever. Good looking set of granite hets.

[Jeff B]

Actually Richard it's really looking like 2 hypo/pastels and 1 normal. Now that they are feeding it's pretty obvious that the 2 are quite a bit brighter/lighter background than the one and there dorsals are bright yellow, whereas the one is more orangish yellow and the background color is a darker olive color compared to the other two. I will post a group pic after they all have there second shed and have enough size to show their true colors.

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

the first shed tells it all :)

[BUSHSNAKE]

pics Jeff!

[ConcinusMan]

Pics are already there Joe. Post #1.

[Jeff B]

Like I said 2 pastels and one normal.
Now that these babies have shed and put a little size on at 3 weeks old it is pretty obvious that 2 are Brad Chambers line pastels and one normal. All of these babies are het for the granite gene as well as the sire was a granite visual. Likely Brad proved either that this pastel line has a super form or a new recessive gene, either way the dame of these babies was a littermate to that breeding.
http://gartersnakemorph.com/images/pastelcheckereda.jpg
http://gartersnakemorph.com/images/pastelcheckeredb.jpghttp://gartersnakemorph.com/images/pastelcheckeredc.jpg

[RdubSnider]

There looking really good jeff

[BChambers]

Jeff, I'm forced, kicking and screaming, to be dragged back to the view that there is indeed a "Super" form to this gene. I can't think of any other explanation that is nearly as likely.

[guidofatherof5]

Very nice looking snakes.

[flickerfriend]

Their very nice looking. :)

[Jeff B]

I'm thinking the same Brad, time will tell, even though I only have these 3 and mom I think I will be able to hopefully add to and support your data, and of course you will also likely add more data next year. I think if I can duplicate your results and you also duplicate them there will be significant evidence. The other thing to do is breed one of your supers to a normal or saaaaay a granite, and see if all babies are visual pastels. I think one thing that is confusing is that the adults do fade a bit, rather than getting brighter or holding that lemon yellow, but it reminds me a lot of the pastel ball python gene, same thing, they usually brown out a bit.


Jeff, I'm forced, kicking and screaming, to be dragged back to the view that there is indeed a "Super" form to this gene. I can't think of any other explanation that is nearly as likely.

[Jeff B]

Thanks for the words Randy, Steve and flicker, sorry not ignoring or not appreciative, just wanted to address Brad first as this is his line of pastel I am working with.

[Jeff B]

You know Brad the other possibility is that these are actually suttle visual hets of a recessive gene that shows the full visual phenotype in the homozygous form which would be what you produced this year. Food for thought, there are some recessive genes that show themselves slightly in the heterozygous animals in other snake species, this is well acknowledged. Either way im keeping that normal as a control and breed it as well for more data to add to solving the puzzle.

[BChambers]

I'm hoping for one or two more litters this season, so maybe things will be clearer soon. i will indeed be trying your suggestion, among others, next season. I also have a "Super" from last year that may be gravid already (by the sire of the earlier clutch). Crossing fingers!