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View Full Version : Any advice please - no idea what's wrong.



Mix
06-07-2011, 03:38 PM
Hi all. I've been absent for a while, life has been busy and I've not been online all that much. I apologise for not making more time to be active here.

Unfortunately, I lost Laguna. At first I was suspicious since it hasn't been that long since losing Lily, and thought it may be something I'm (unknowingly) doing. I can't think of anything I'm doing wrong, and also this time it seems that the circumstances were different - we suspected that Lily had had a convulsion, whereas Laguna looked perfectly normal. Just lying there. They did, however, both go off food. Laguna ate minimally over the last few weeks.

Now, Silver is acting a little strange. She shed four days ago, and ate the day after. She has seemed fine up until now, but she suddenly seems sluggish and lethargic. She won't eat (which is not necessarily odd) and her eyes seem dull/dark despite her recent shed. I checked her for retained eyecaps (although the shed seemed fine), but they don't appear to have retained.

There is no sign of mites, she has fresh water, clean tank etc... just don't know what is wrong. My husband thought that maybe there's something wrong with our tap water? I do treat it with Reptisafe, but could it be limescale or something? They seemed to not be spending as much time in the water lately.
Or is it possible that whatever was wrong with Laguna has passed to Silver? I'm just so, so worried right now.
Plus, in the middle of my checking Silver over, my daughter was sick and is now wrapped up down on the sofa with us. I'm in worrying overdrive.

I really don't want to lose another snake, and I'm feeling really disheartened. Lily and Laguna could have been a coincidence or bad luck, but I'm really worrying now that Silver seems off. Laguna and Silver were both so active and happy. Any help or ideas would be really appreciated right now.

Thank you.

guidofatherof5
06-07-2011, 04:25 PM
What are you feeding?
Any suppliments?
I don't treat water and not sure if the chemicals could be causing a problem.
Not sure what to tell you at this point other than to hang in there.
Keep us posted.

d_virginiana
06-07-2011, 09:32 PM
If you are worried about the water being a problem you could always get a gallon jug of spring water from the store and use that for a bit to see if your snake shows any improvement.

Hoping your snake improves.

Mix
06-08-2011, 03:04 AM
Silver didn't make it to the morning. I have no words to describe how I'm feeling right now. :(

Is it more common to experience problems with younger snakes? All mine have been under a year old.

Lora - I actually had the same thought, and switched to spring water last night, but it was obviously too late to make a difference - even if that was what was wrong.

Steve - I was feeding trout (which is what they had been fed on since birth), and had added a little salmon and recently atlantic mackerel for variety. I gave Zoo Med Repti Calcium supplement with D3.
I was thinking of trying them with pinkies once they'd gotten a bit bigger, but they refused worms and slugs (even scented with fish), so I don't know if they'd have gone for it. But I know pinkies aren't essential, so it didn't worry me too much.

Gartergal - I can't desribe how bad I feel that your girls died in my care. I'm absolutely crushed.

I can't imagine being without snakes, but I'm too afraid. I don't know what on earth went wrong, so I don't know how I can change it in future. I'm really confused.

kibakiba
06-08-2011, 07:04 AM
You can't blame yourself for something you didn't cause. If you do get another snake, try to keep it on the spring water. I give mine boiled and then filtered well water, it keeps all the junk out of it.

Younger snakes are more sensitive to chemicals, so if there were chemicals in the water, it could have caused it, but I'm not completely positive that it might be the cause of death.

Mix
06-08-2011, 07:42 AM
Thank you. Today I spoke to my friend; he lives in my area (so our water is the same) and he has an almost 2 year old carolina corn. He has given him nothing but tap water and has noticed no ill effects. He wondered if any of our water piping in the house could be the problem (it's a victorian house), but was re-piped in regular copper piping.

I'm also not sure that the water was the cause (it was just an idea as they weren't spending much time in there), but I'm totally bemused. I've been trying to think of anything and everything - viv, substrate, light, heat, humidity, decor, diet, water, mite checks, supplements, cleaning... I can't think of anything amiss, yet I don't know if I can believe that it's just unfortunate coincidence that all 3 of my snakes had unknown problems.

I'm so reluctant to get another snake - though I don't want to be without them - because I dread this happening again.

kibakiba
06-08-2011, 07:57 AM
Well it could be the fish. You never know with some fish. They may be thiamine free, but you never know about the mercury and junk in it. I feed fish as a little treat. I had a problem with some of my babies (namely, Squirt) who would only eat worms at first, and then got stuck on fish. She wouldn't even take fish scented food. Eventually, I just didn't feed her for a week, and she took the pinky parts I had offered her after that. Perhaps you could try that, also, if you get another snake.

I understand how you feel. When Squirt and Thumbelina got in a fight and their mouths got infected I felt guilty, because I hadn't paid attention to their mouths until probably 2 weeks after they showed signs of infection. Looking back, I could see something wrong, but, like I said, I didn't pay much attention to it. Luckily I got some medicine from Richard and helped get them cleaned up. I missed a day with Squirts medicine and her whole mouth turned a deep purple-red colour. When I checked on her and picked her up, she'd wave her head around with her mouth open. I felt so terrible and part of me wanted to give up on taking care of the snakes and just give them to someone more responsible, because I felt I had caused little Squirt so much pain that I wasn't worthy of owning her. I was scared of it happening to my other snakes also, and that I'd be careless again. I couldn't just give up on the little snakes that had brought me so much joy, though. I check on all my snakes and look them all over at least once a week to make sure that everyone is healthy and fit.

BLUESIRTALIS
06-08-2011, 08:06 AM
Sorry for your loss.

Mix
06-08-2011, 08:56 AM
Thank you all. I guess it's down to the fact that I feel a little helpless.
I will look in to pinky feeding for future, maybe even a yearling already established on pinks. I thought it would be safe using fish from UK farms, but I guess you can never tell what could be in it.

Sonya610
06-08-2011, 10:09 AM
If you are really concerned what about contacting a herp vet and inquiring about a necropsy? I would want to talk to the vet and find out ahead of time if they can easily find the cause of obvious things (like whether it was a pathogen or some sort of chemical toxin).

d_virginiana
06-08-2011, 10:18 AM
Sorry for your loss. Try not to feel so bad about it though; you couldn't have helped what happened.

Stefan-A
06-08-2011, 12:56 PM
Sorry about the loss.

How were the temperatures recently?

drache
06-08-2011, 02:03 PM
sorry about the losses
they are a bit more fragile when they're less than a year old

Mix
06-10-2011, 06:05 AM
Sorry, my family was hit by a nasty bug the last couple days; actually started the day we lost Silver. First my daughter, then hubbie, then myself, and last night, my son. Even my poor dad got it (which I'm sure he caught from seeing us lot). Everyone now getting better!

A necropsy would have been good, but I already buried the poor guys when they died. I didn't think to store them (not sure how?). I may find out if there is a specialist vet in my area who could do this, for future reference - but hopefully I won't need it!

The temps have been fine here, and the enclosure has stayed regulated with the light and heat mat as normal. No problems or sudden rises or drops.

guidofatherof5
06-10-2011, 06:10 AM
Sorry to you lost silver.

RdubSnider
06-10-2011, 12:56 PM
Sorry for Your loss
For all of them to go like that I'd think it would have to do with the fish. I don't think even bad water would do that. And you don't have to worry about the old plumbing either. Hope you get another snake in the future.

ConcinusMan
06-11-2011, 02:18 PM
Are you sure this wasn't a case of retained shed, or a just partially retained? Just kinda sounds like it. I've lost a few little ones that way.

charles parenteau
06-11-2011, 03:29 PM
Sorry about you lost!!

Mommy2many
06-11-2011, 03:53 PM
I am so sorry to hear that you lost her. Don't give up! I lost 3 snakes over the winter, they were already over 18 months old. One was the Mom. Sometimes, you just don't know.

Mix
06-15-2011, 05:40 AM
Sorry for Your loss
For all of them to go like that I'd think it would have to do with the fish. I don't think even bad water would do that. And you don't have to worry about the old plumbing either. Hope you get another snake in the future.

After reading through some other stuff on the forum today, I was actually just coming to this conclusion. I always get my fish from the fresh counter, never pre-packed, and it is usually british farmed, but always states place of origin. I thought I was getting clean, fresh fish, but maybe not. :mad:

Richard - I did check her over for retained shed, but couldn't find any. I think her eyes going dull may have been a result of the fact that she was fading away. :(

I wanted to thank everyone for their words of support. It felt so hard to suddenly have no snakes. BUT - that could never put me off owning these great little guys. Even just looking at the empty viv makes me want to go and fill it immediately. :) I'm hoping to get some soon. And when I do, I will be trying everything to get them on to pinkies and earthworms. I need to find out if the fish from the fresh counter comes from different stock than what I could get at the fish market, as I'm feeling a little untrusting.

Why oh why don't they sell Sally's silversides over here?!

guidofatherof5
06-15-2011, 05:52 AM
Sorry to hear about your loss.
Wish I could get you a few of my radixes.;)

Mix
06-15-2011, 06:02 AM
Thanks Steve. I would happily run an exchange student programme so they can 'see the world'! ;) Actually, I think it would be better if I just move continent!

PINJOHN
06-15-2011, 06:51 AM
i was speaking to a garter enthusiast some weeks ago and during our conversation he told me that he had heard that san frans were not living much past two years of age supposedly because of the inbreeding,[ this is in the UK]
didn't give me any details so i don't know how accurate this info is, but inbreeding is likely to be a bigger problem on this side of the pond than the U.S.A and with the harder to get species which are not supplemented [gene pool wise]with W.C as happens with the more common garters.
don't know what type your snakes are so this might not be a consideration.

Mix
06-15-2011, 08:58 AM
I actually heard that about the San Frans too.

They were Santa Cruz (a. atratus); sisters from unrelated German parents, though I have none of the specifics other than that, or any history beyond.
From what I can gather, atratus aren't that common over here, but their litter-mates were doing well, last I heard. It's a thought.

The more I read of people losing snakes due to the fish they were eating, the more it sounds like it may have been that. They grew less active over time, and toward the end, ate little. On the last evening, Silver just lay around, not moving much even when checking her - which was what alerted me that something was wrong (coupled with the fact that Laguna had already died), but I couldn't tell what was wrong as they appeared healthy in all other senses. They didn't get skinny or have any kind of weird behaviour... Just seemed to eat less. Silver even shed a few days before.

I thought I was getting good fish, but obviously not. I won't be risking it again - I used the same fish for Tigerlily from the beginning, and all three are now gone.

flickerfriend
07-02-2011, 04:18 PM
Im so sorry about silver.

Moose
07-05-2011, 03:44 PM
Hi Mix, sorry to hear about your problems. Do you have a daylight tube fitted? I put one in a while ago & my 2 have started eating after a long fast. I also now feed fresh fish, not frozen, as i read about induced thiamine deficiency through lack of (vitaminB). From one of my books frozen fish (especially sea fish) contain an antivitamen called Thiaminase which destroys the natural vitamin B.

ConcinusMan
07-08-2011, 09:24 PM
Fresh or frozen, saltwater or freshwater fish, has nothing to do with thiaminase. Live fish carries way more risk to your snakes than previously frozen fish, even if your live fish does not contain thiaminase.

drache
07-09-2011, 08:03 AM
sorry about your losses
a few years ago I lost a garter I had fed fresh fish to, and I have not done that since
I believe that even "good quality" fish can potentially carry parasites, bacteria, or environmental toxins
some of that stuff is rendered less potent by freezing
freezing does not create thiaminase, but it does diminish the b vitamins
when a fish does contain thiaminase, supplementation will not solve the problem, but when the vitamins have been degraded due to freezing, supplementation can compensate
ideally we would like to feed a complete food, but feeding them something safe is sort of a priority