New guy

[Starling96]

I found a little ribbon snake who has several broken ribs. I'm not sure if I should let him go or try to nurse him back to health cause even at 85 degrees he's pretty sluggish but he did eat some trout.
And also is a 30 gallon long to big? It's the only baby ribbon snake proof tank I currently have lol

[guidofatherof5]

It's really your call on whether to keep him or not.
30 gallon long should be fine. Too much room is usually not a problem.
It's good that he took some food in.

[Starling96]

Yea I think I'm going to keep him.
Also is trout a staple diet? And if not what should I try to feed

[RedSidedSPR]

Trout works... i prefer frozen silversides, though. Or live feeder guppies.

You'll want to mix it up though, not ONLY trout... although with ribbons it might be OK... not with garters. IDK.

30 gallons shouldn't be too big. It's defiantly not too small:D

Good luck. Keep us posted

[ConcinusMan]

Also is trout a staple diet? And if not what should I try to feed

Whole fish and rodents too, preferably. Most fish eaters will eventually take fish-scented pinkies. I avoid live fish however, when I'm feeding snakes that are CB or dewormed. Significant risk of parasites so I prefer to only feed them fish that has been frozen for some time.

You also have to consider that virtually all trout and salmon have varying levels of mercury and/or PCB's in them which accumulate over time and can become toxic. These are neurotoxins which can produce tremors/seizures and symptoms similar to B1 deficiency. If you're using trout or salmon, then it's best to use ONLY Wild Alaskan salmon or farmed trout/steelhead. These have fairly low levels of contaminants. Most any other salmon besides Alaskan is highly contaminated. No more than two small servings a month is recommended for adult humans. Tilapia is much cleaner however and has only minuscule amounts of contaminants. Virtually none. A little now and then usually does no harm even if it has fairly high levels of contaminants. Contaminated/polluted fish is really only a concern if this makes up the majority of your snakes diet.

[Starling96]

L I didn't thunk it was to small ;)
and we caught the trout from the white river. We have tons of it and eat it all the time and nothing seems to be wrong with except I love snakes jk lol
and I'll mix it up my sister has guppies that breed like crazy so she won't notice any missing lol

[RedSidedSPR]

and we caught the trout from the white river.

Then you probably need to freeze it for awhile before feeding to get rid of parasites.. I THINK.. not sure if that goes for fillet..


and I'll mix it up my sister has guppies that breed like crazy so she won't notice any missing lol

Hehe

[kibakiba]

IMO, it is always wise to freeze something self caught at 0 degrees for at the VERY least, 2 weeks. Just in case.

[RedSidedSPR]

Well, then, I guess I was right.

But if that's a pain, or if it's just too long, BUY FROZEN SILVERSIDES.

[Starling96]

Yea they have been frozen for a yer or longer and I will I know where to get some and thanks fr the help guys!

[ConcinusMan]

Are you talking about white river in Indiana? I wouldn't touch anything out of that river, let alone eat it or feed it to my snakes.

[Starling96]

No in arkansas and Missouri
some of it is a wild life preserve pr something lol
it's a pretty clean river

[ConcinusMan]

Well it sounds like your fish would make an excellent staple, especially if you make fish jello from it and ad reptile vitamins to it. I'm not sure where to find the recipe but I'm sure other members reading this know where to find it. Anyone? I know Shannon knows how to make it.

[Starling96]

Yea
Ive seen the recipe I'll probably pm her though
And do ribbons to better in a pair or a trio???

[kibakiba]

It depends on the snake. They are like people when it comes to this, some seem to do better in large groups, some like to be in smaller groups, some like to have just one extra snake in with them and some prefer to be completely alone.

[ConcinusMan]

Garters and ribbons are solitary by nature unless it's brumating or mating time. They don't really need company. It's up to you if you want to keep them in groups. They do just fine either way.

[guidofatherof5]

Garters and ribbons are solitary by nature unless it's brumating or mating time. They don't really need company. It's up to you if you want to keep them in groups. They do just fine either way.


I can't speak for ribbon snakes but when it comes to T.radix and T.s. parietalis I would disagree with your "solitary by nature" statement.
I very rarely fine a radix or parietalis alone when I'm out herping.
2 or more is usually what I find under hide.
My large enclosure with multiple hides are a prime example of them grouping together.
I personally think they are more relaxed and calm when housed together.
Just my opinion.;)

[RedSidedSPR]

I personally think they are more relaxed and calm when housed together.
Just my opinion.;)[/QUOTE]

I do too. I am going to buy another baby to put in with this onw for that reason. They feel more secure... not as jumpy as they are when they're alone in a big tank...

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

I can't speak for ribbon snakes but when it comes to T.radix and T.s. parietalis I would disagree with your "solitary by nature" statement.
I very rarely fine a radix or parietalis alone when I'm out herping.
2 or more is usually what I find under hide.
My large enclosure with multiple hides are a prime example of them grouping together.
I personally think they are more relaxed and calm when housed together.
Just my opinion.;)

I agree entirely with your disagreement. I always find wild garters together... garters that have no reason to be together as they are not mating.

[RedSidedSPR]

I have never (EVER) found more than one snake under something. I have the worst luck herping. And I'm herping ALL DAY. I usually go home finding, oh, idk, one snake. Usually none.:rolleyes: Let alone two at a time. That is unimaginable.:p

[ConcinusMan]

I agree entirely with your disagreement. I always find wild garters together... garters that have no reason to be together as they are not mating.

Of course I'm sure it has nothing to do with the fact that they are sharing the best basking, hunting, and hiding spots.:rolleyes: I really don't think they come together for the company.

[guidofatherof5]

Of course I'm sure it has nothing to do with the fact that they are sharing the best basking, hunting, and hiding spots.:rolleyes: I really don't think they come together for the company.

Eat, drink, poop, breed. Right Richard.

Oh ye of little faith.

[kibakiba]

All of my snakes like to share one spot, and that isn't a basking spot, since I dont put the basking lamps on while its over the 70s.All of them, including Snap, lay together.

My babies did the cutest thing ever the other day... About 3 of them, Silver, Specks and Spots were all facing each other in a circle and they were looking at each other, one would flick their tongue at the one next to them, then one would flick their tongue at the other. It looked like they were talking. :D Of course, there's always one who likes to interrupt everyone or try to join in. That one would be Dots. He came slithering over them flicking his tongue like crazy... they the all slithered away. Haha. I can imagine Dots being the geeky kid trying to fit in at school or something and going "hey! Hey guys! GUYS! Wanna come over to my house and watch Star wars? Maybe some Star Trek too?!" :D

[Didymus20X6]

All the snakes I've kept (not many, mind you) have tended to cuddle up in the same hide, even when I've put multiple hides in the enclosure. When I kept three that one summer, all three of them frequently shared the same hide.

Also, that one year that stampede of garters came through our yard, I could swear they were bunching up together and following a "leader", not like they all just happened to be going the same way, but like they were deliberately traveling together.

[ConcinusMan]

Also, that one year that stampede of garters came through our yard, I could swear they were bunching up together and following a "leader", not like they all just happened to be going the same way, but like they were deliberately traveling together.

Yeah, the leader a receptive female, the followers, horny males. Nothing unusual about that.


All the snakes I've kept (not many, mind you) have tended to cuddle up in the same hide, even when I've put multiple hides in the enclosure. When I kept three that one summer, all three of them frequently shared the same hide.

No they don't. I don't believe you.:p

http://img825.imageshack.us/img825/3020/x001large.jpg

[RicMartin]

Steve, my snakes seem to enjoy company too, so I keep them in pairs or groups, not all alone. Other than for disease spread prevention, I don't see a real need for isolation so far.

[ConcinusMan]

Eat, drink, poop, breed. Right Richard.

Oh ye of little faith.

Oh C'mon Steve, don't be so quick to anthropomorphise. I think we can agree that there are similarities in both physiology, and behavior, between reptiles and birds. Birds flock together at a great advantage against predator attack. Did it not occur that the old adage "there is safety in numbers" might apply here? You said yourself that they seem calmer and not as nervous/ more "outgoing" in groups. And yet it never occurred to you that this might be because there is security against predators for the individual when there is a group formed?

I think it boils down to a feeling of safety and security, which as I mentioned before, can be achieved simply by providing more vegetation and cover for an individual instead of being all out in the open. The individual snake is safer against predator attack when it is either well hidden and secure, or if the individual is part of a group instead of being alone. A predator will focus on one snake. Particularly the slowest one in the group when they all decide it's time to flee.

Just saying that there are equally compelling arguments that the change in behavior is not due to them having "company" and that their gathering together could just as easily be a strategy against predator attack, therefore making them feel safer and more secure when they are in groups.

It could very well be that they do not necessarily "enjoy" each others company, but instead prefer the safety that comes with numbers.

When I'm out herping I see individual snakes on their own out foraging, or when I do find groups of them, it's simply because they are sharing a suitable hiding/basking place. I see no evidence that they seek out each others company outside of breeding / brumating season. They simply come together because a certain spot meets their mutual needs.

In that picture I posted above, it's no surprise that one snakes favorite hiding place is also favored by the others. I really don't think they are all in there just for the sake of being together and I do not believe they get "lonely" if kept singly. Just my opinion.;)


It depends on the snake. They are like people when it comes to this

And that's where the mistake lies. They are nothing like people so stop attributing human characteristics, motivation or behavior to snakes.:cool:

What motivates their behaviors is not necessarily the same things that motivate our behavior.

Actually, It's not my place to tell you to stop doing that. It actually helps for us to enjoy them more but it's not necessarily what is actually happening.

[kibakiba]

Then why does Snakey immediately refuse food when he's alone, and start eating right when I place someone in with him? He started eating so much better when I got Mama and put them together.

And perhaps, for me, since I have no friends I tend to anthropomorphise them because they are truly my only real friends.

[ConcinusMan]

Then why does Snakey immediately refuse food when he's alone, and start eating right when I place someone in with him? He started eating so much better when I got Mama and put them together.

Competition. If you want to anthropomorphise anything, then that's it. Competitive nature. We have it. Maybe they do too. Or else it could again boil down to security. Feeding activity makes a snake vulnerable at that moment. The moment when they are eating. No snake is in the mood to eat when it feels unsafe. Having other snakes around makes them feel safer.


And perhaps, for me, since I have no friends I tend to anthropomorphise them because they are truly my only real friends.

And I would have to come right out and say you are wrong. You do have friends. Human friends. Don't let that rain storm that is following you around, cloud your vision Chantel. Been there, done that. I understand more than you know. What you're feeling now is not real. The feeling that you are alone and have no friends is an illusion. Don't let the the rain cloud above your head beat you. It's lying to you in attempt to beat you into submission. You're stronger than that. It will get better. The sun will come out and you'll see things much clearer. The cloud is a lie. The sun is shining brightly. You just can't see it because the cloud is over your head.

[kibakiba]

I have online friends, I consider a lot of people on here and people on games to be true friends, but in a physical sense, I don't have anyone to talk to, or to hug if I feel down. That is why I anthropomorphise, I can talk to Mama and believe she listens to me, I can hug her and I can bring her into my room and lay with her, and usually, she'll stay right on my chest or on my pillow.

[ConcinusMan]

Nothing wrong with that. As I was saying before, the snakes are good for you.

[Starling96]

I case u were wodering the little guys in the wild now lol
he was fully recovered

[d_virginiana]

I have online friends, I consider a lot of people on here and people on games to be true friends, but in a physical sense, I don't have anyone to talk to, or to hug if I feel down. That is why I anthropomorphise, I can talk to Mama and believe she listens to me, I can hug her and I can bring her into my room and lay with her, and usually, she'll stay right on my chest or on my pillow.

Bonds with animals like snakes, frogs, fish, ect. are so interesting because so much trust is involved. I mean, it's no wonder my dog can trust me and understand every little facial expression I make; they evolved with us as our companions. They legitimately think we're part of their family unit, so it's really not that astounding when someone has a dog that trusts them. IMO the trust your snake shows in being relaxed enough to just lay on you like that (cause they definitely know we're alive and not just a part of the scenery!) is a really fascinating thing and no less important than the bonds some people have with their dogs or cats. :)

[kibakiba]

I agree with you on that, Mama is the only snake that trusts me enough to lay on me and let me do pretty much whatever I want without putting up a big fuss. My snakes are my family, and I'm happy to consider them that. They are truly much more than an animal to me, and way more than a pet (if anything, I'm their pet...) I'm not one to own fuzzy animals, due to my allergy to fur and feathers, but we have rescued our dog, cat and macaw... They're just as much of family as my snakes are, even if I don't always like them (which is usually molting time, making my eyes and throat swell up) ;)

[Sonya610]

Oh C'mon Steve, don't be so quick to anthropomorphise. I think we can agree that there are similarities in both physiology, and behavior, between reptiles and birds. Birds flock together at a great advantage against predator attack. Did it not occur that the old adage "there is safety in numbers" might apply here? You said yourself that they seem calmer and not as nervous/ more "outgoing" in groups.


There is so much we do not know about other species of plants and animals.

I would be very curious to know if anyone has done a study on these wild garters that group together outside the den (like the ones Shannon saw, virtually all curled up together in pairs).

Are those pairings totally random? Do garters gravitate towards others and keep pairing with the same animals in the wild? Do they have a preference for related animals? I don't think observing captive animals all stuck together would be as reliable as observing garters in the wild.

Scientists often study things that are in no way close to nature and then make blanket statements about entire species. The famous "wolf pack" studies were based primarily on CAPTIVE animals randomly grouped together and then observed. Real packs are simply FAMILIES of wolves and react very differently, yet arrogant scientists studied groups of complete strangers forced to live together and formulated huge "fact based studies" on wolf behavior that was universally accepted as "scientific truth".

No doubt reptiles are even less understood.

[RedSidedSPR]

My new anery seems to trust me... he ate his first meal sitting in my hand... and the rest of the meals are hand fed too. But because of that, I can pick him up without him squirming away (unlike my other two) he just doesn't seem to mind...



I'm not one to own fuzzy animals

well, if she replaces those.. just don't squeeze too hard:D

[RedSidedSPR]

No doubt reptiles are even less understood.

No doubt

[guidofatherof5]

I case u were wodering the little guys in the wild now lol
he was fully recovered

That's great news. Thanks for the update.