sexing error

[drache]

let me tell you that I am still in shock
please take a look first at my concinnus - sexing pics
http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5263/5787463772_bf77fd4274_z.jpg

hard to tell where the vent is, but I think it's right below the hand where that slight bulge is
http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5063/5786903599_2d54927b78_z.jpg


I look and see "male", but that's not how other male garters see it
that's why he's been probed twice by persons more experienced than I am - and been judged to be male both times

yesterday he gave birth to 14 healthy babies
yes, they're hybrids (marcianus), and no, their fate is not up for debate, because I think I know how that would go, and I am too tired
they will be responsibly dealt with, and that's that

this thread is to remind people that mistakes are quite easy to make, and that snakes are better judges of another snake's gender than even experienced humans with all the right equipment

[guidofatherof5]

Good point to bring up Rhea. Mistakes can happen.
Best of luck with the little scrubs.

[ssssnakeluvr]

mistakes happen. that fat bulge is not uncommon.... males have longer bulges that that.

[sirtalis01]

it looks like a female to me.. agreed with Don males would have a longer bulge

[RdubSnider]

The pictures makes her look a liltle to big to have been a male.

[ConcinusMan]

Yeah, I'm with you Randy. Except for the bulge, everything else screams "female" to me. I wonder if there could be a growth or some other abnormality going on with her. That bulge just doesn't seem right. I'm wondering if the bulge was there before the snake got probed. It almost looks as if someone probed that snake wrong and injured it.

Well since the deed is already done and you have marcianus/concinnus hybrids then we might as well see what they look like *hint*

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

Some females put on a bit of fat there and get that little bulge but I instantly knew that snake was a female without even reading! I have seen that type of tail plenty of times... But no worries, I can see how many people would mistake that as a male. The male bulge doesnt quite stick out and is longer.

[kibakiba]

The bulge does make "him" look male, but the size is definitely female. I would like to see what the babies look like.
Honestly, I don't see a problem with the hybrid babies, I, and I'm sure the rest of us, know you made a mistake and are responsible enough to admit that. Mistakes always happen, it's just a part of life.

[Jeff B]

I commonly see females at Walmart with that bulge, I believe it's called "a butt in the front" :eek::p:D

[ConcinusMan]

Omg:rolleyes:

[ConcinusMan]

Omg:rolleyes:

I keep seeing the ones where, what should be up front, is in the back.:eek:

[Spankenstyne]

Good points, mistakes happen.
I would be concerned about using whoever probed her again though. Easy for me to say after the fact I know and I could see how at first glance it could be mistaken visually though when it was younger. One of the few times I've heard of someone probing a female as a male, usually it's an un co-operative male probing as female (and really who could blame them for clenching lol)

[drache]

personally I've never seen a female with a bulge, however small, after (distal to) the vent
all of mine have bulges before (proximal to) the vent, and some of them have "hips"
but I have not kept hundreds of garters - just a few dozen - so I may just have never seen one even if it is a common occurrence
he is a bit large for a male, but the marcianus male is at least one-and-a-half times that size, and another concinnus male I'd had previously was bigger than this too, so that's not something I'd sex by

[ConcinusMan]

You know, I'm not one to say "I told you so" but I think I mentioned before Rhea, a long time ago, that I thought "he" was a female. And I'm not talking about just length when I say "size". Female concinnus' are much heavier bodied than males of the same length. I always thought "he" was a bit too bulky to be a male. Even if I overfeed a male consistently, they just don't get that thick. The head is another indicator. Large female concinnus' always have broader heads than males.

But anyway, when do we get to see these hybrids? Even though I would never do it on purpose, now that it's done, I am curious to see what they look like.

[guidofatherof5]

[QUOTE=ConcinnusMan;162268]You know, I'm not one to say "I told you so" but I think I mentioned before Rhea, a long time ago, that I thought "he" was a female. QUOTE]

But you will any way.

[ConcinusMan]

Well of course! How else are you supposed to help people to see how truly genius you are?:rolleyes:

[guidofatherof5]

Genius was not the word I had in mind.:rolleyes:

[drache]

Steve
Richard knows his concinnus, even if he just sees half of one
I just mistakenly thought they were sort of like other sirtalis, and by the T.s.sirtalis or T.s.parietalis standarts at my house, this snake looks like a guy
I'll have to go back to the photos to see where he gets "thick" though
does it make any difference that it's a child holding the snake?
I'll take a photo with another snake - that might be better

the babies look just like spectacularly mud coloured marcies - very cute

[ConcinusMan]

Genius was not the word I had in mind.:rolleyes:

Oh, you must mean "brilliant". yeah, that's it.

[Spankenstyne]

Here's a helpful tail chart from Allan Francis' web site. The top 3 (A, B & C) are all female examples, the bottom 2 male. You can see in hindsight that yours looks most like the B example.

http://www.gartersnake.co.uk/snakesex.jpg

[drache]

thanks Chris
it's my first B example snake ever
live and learn
I've never actually seen a C example male either, so that's why I assumed that's what it was
my other males are all so slender that one cannot tell where the vent is without turning them over; none of them have any bulges - more like example A
forget it - I guess I am completely clueless about sexing
to me the only clearly female looking shape in this bunch would be C, and my females have a much greater variety of shapes than my males, but half of these shapes I haven't even seen on a live snake
since these come from a big-wig expert, it must mean that I totally suck
it's a good thing I bring my snakes to people with way more experience to sex when I'm not sure, but apparently I'm a poor judge of other people's experience as well
having trouble wrapping my mind around the idea that all my previous sexing has been clueless luck, but I guess I've been lucky enough because this was my first wrong guess in years

[Spankenstyne]

I wouldn't be so hard on yourself. Everyone gets it wrong at some time if they've been in the hobby long enough and have dealt with enough snakes, even all the big time experts. Trust your gut as it sounds you've had a long string of sexing them correctly.
Mother Nature likes to throw us a curveball once in a while & it's really easy for us to be right after the fact. ;)

[drache]

what gets me is that everybody else seems to see it right away
I did kind of think I wasn't half bad at this sort of thing, and it's hard to be so spectacularly off
thanks for your kind words, Chris

[Spankenstyne]

No problem.

I actually often find it easier to sex other people's snakes than my own. I find myself second guessing & doubting my own sexings at times. Probably has to do with being more emotionally invested in our own snakes & possibly seeing what we want to see (or even maybe not wanting to see) instead of what's just there.
I have found it helpful on some of the iffy ones to take a few pictures and try to look at the pics as if they were someone elses that I was sexing for them. Usually the pics will look much more obvious to me than it did in person.

Chalk it up as a learning experience . I'm not sure of your experience level with these snakes, but it all comes in time with experience & we learn from mistakes.
I'm pretty new to seriously keeping garters, just the last 4 years or so (not counting the childhood escapades haha), but I do have more than 20 years experience in the hobby with other stuff, so the subtle differences might be more apparent to me (or the many others with much more experience than I) than someone who's newer to it.
There's always something to learn no matter how long you do this, that's part of the fun.
It's funny but the more experience I get the more I realize I still have so much yet to learn.

[ConcinusMan]

I for one would still love to see these "spectacularly mud coloured marcies". Sorry, don't mean to push but it's not every day you get to see a hybrid garter.

[kibakiba]

I do too. I'm too curious for my own good... It's killing me!