Mixing species?

[RedSidedSPR]

What can go together with a red-sided? For instance (random) can a plains go with one? Northwesterns? I know easterns can but that's all I'm sure of.

And I know to stay away from wandering garters (cannibalism)

I don't really plan on getting one anytime soon (just got one), but just in case, I might buy one to get this new one eating, or for whatever reason, I want to make sure.

[guidofatherof5]

I have Red Sided and Plains living in perfect harmony. (Unless it's food time)
Do keep the sexes separated though.

[drache]

I've housed my parietalis with sirtalis, concinnus, marcianus, and radix - never a problem

[Didymus20X6]

Just don't let them cross-breed. Some of the folks on this forum get rather upset about that.

[drache]

yeah - don't mix genders
and keep sizes within a reasonable range

[guidofatherof5]

Just don't let them cross-breed. Some of the folks on this forum get rather upset about that.

With good reason I may add.;)

[Didymus20X6]

Well, there goes my fiendish plan to breed a Gojira-sized garter snake to take over the world. 8(

[RedSidedSPR]

Alright, thanks. I only get males anyway at the moment so I can house them together.

which ones can't live together??

[RedSidedSPR]

Some of the folks on this forum get rather upset about that.


...um... why?

[guidofatherof5]

Keeping the species and subspecies pure to themselves.

Cross-breeding creates mutts that muddy the gene pool.
Hybrid snakes can't be released back into the wild. They would have to be cared for for the rest of their lives or euthanized.
Nature allows for some hybrids to be produced where the ranges of two snakes cross.
Some think it would be cool to just mix and match snakes to see what will happens. Creating hybrids because we can.
In my opinion that is irresponsible.

[infernalis]

Just don't let them cross-breed. Some of the folks on this forum get rather upset about that.


...um... why?


Hybridization.. it's rather frowned upon.

I have one hybrid garter I adopted a few years ago, he's fine.:D

[Didymus20X6]

As best I can tell, it's because it is believed that cross-breeding screws up the gene pool of the species in question. While some might say that an accidental cross-breed is okay as long as it is kept in captivity for the rest of its life, and never allowed to breed at all, others say that it is an environmental risk, and should one occur, it should be killed. Either way, the consensus is, don't do it.

[infernalis]

should one occur, it should be killed. Either way, the consensus is, don't do it.

That's how I wound up adopting mine, It was an accidental breeding, The fellow that had the parents was torn between killing the babies or giving them away to responsible keepers.

I was given one male, he lives completely solo.. He's interesting though.

Part checkered garter and part eastern.

I think other people here have siblings from that litter.

[RdubSnider]

IMO when you keep any type of snake and want to breed then you have a responsibility to keep the blood lines pure.

[ssssnakeluvr]

I have a pair of the hybrids eastern/checkereds also. nice snakes, but will never be allowed to breed.

[RedSidedSPR]

Gotcha that's what I thought. I'm not breeding so don't worry. All males for now.... for now.

[Sonya610]

Hybrid snakes can't be released back into the wild. They would have to be cared for for the rest of their lives or euthanized.

Do we have reason to believe most of the captive bred snakes that have been fed pinky parts and tilapia their entire lives could survive in the wild? I would expect they would have to remain captive their entire lives too, assuming this is about the individual animals and not just what a hybrid could possibly do to the wild population.

[Spankenstyne]

I don't see it as a possible release back into the wild issue. I see it as trying to keep the ssp as pure as possible so we don't get what you see in many rat/corn snakes, Pituophis etc. There has been so much ssp crossing and hybridizing in those that it really muddies up the gene pool and puts doubt into what people might actually have.

[RedSidedSPR]

Kinda like dogs... very few people actually know what they have.

"what kind of dog is that? He's pretty", "We don't know. Some kinda MIX".

[Stefan-A]

Do we have reason to believe most of the captive bred snakes that have been fed pinky parts and tilapia their entire lives could survive in the wild?
Yes. Even our truly domesticated species have done it. All of them. Not one exception.

[RedSidedSPR]

They never lose their instinct imo.

[Sonya610]

If they were acclimated to the natural food source and then released in an area chosen for ample food and garter dens then probably a lot would survive just fine, but in reality I doubt if most captive bred snakes would be released that way and I doubt if most could make it on their own.

[guidofatherof5]

I think that instincts are a powerful thing and for most snake it would take over. I've seen it in some of my snakes that were set down in the grass.
As soon as they hit the grass they became defensive and stuck at me. Picking them up they returned to nice and calm.
I think many would survive.
I think the real issue is the impact on the existing ecosystem.
Can it support the additional bodies?
Just my thoughts.

[Didymus20X6]

My concern wouldn't so much be the extra bodies - after all, you could easily have native species you are keeping get away from you, too. But what about the local snake population gene pool? Will cross-bred snakes interbreeding with pure-bred snakes impact their genetic makeup? And how would that further impact the environment?

For example, say you had a cross-breed between one species that specializes in feeding on amphibians and another on fish: if that snake were to somehow interbreed with a local population that specializes in fish, would it cause them to suddenly start eating more amphibians? That could potentially impact not just the snake population, but also the fish and amphibian populations as well. Of course, garters tend to eat a variety anyway, but this is just a hypothetical scenario.

[infernalis]

Most wetland ecosystems have plenty of fish and amphibians.

One thing that all of us never seem to want to consider is this.. what if I had a California native specimen escape my collection and find it's way outside.

That snake could very well breed with your local garter snakes, so the risk will always exist as long as people continue to collect specimens of non native animals.

[Sonya610]

One thing that all of us never seem to want to consider is this.. what if I had a California native specimen escape my collection and find it's way outside.

That snake could very well breed with your local garter snakes, so the risk will always exist as long as people continue to collect specimens of non native animals.

Yeah, I thought the same thing. Cross breeding may cause confusion and ruffle feathers in the pet/breeder circles but when it comes to mixing species in the wild, the accidental release of a mixed sub-species garter would be much less likely than the release of non-native sub-species.

Unless a large number were released in a specific area I really doubt it would cause a problem though. Even if the odd garter did breed with another sub-species in the wild it would only effect a few individuals and within a few generations the differences would imperceptible. Introducing disease or genetic weakness might be more of a problem (at least that is what some "don't release captive bred reptile" government sites preach.

Maybe a diversity training class is in order here. ;)

[ConcinusMan]

If they were acclimated to the natural food source and then released in an area chosen for ample food and garter dens then probably a lot would survive just fine, but in reality I doubt if most captive bred snakes would be released that way and I doubt if most could make it on their own.

You seem to contradict yourself in that statement. "probably a lot would survive just fine"... "and I doubt if most could make it on their own."

The reality is, garter snakes are one of the most widespread snakes in North America and highly adaptable. If a non-native and/or captive bred garter was released or escaped where it could find adequate food and shelter, it would very likely survive. As to whether or not it will have descendants and become established in an area, that is another issue altogether. Before I knew any better, I released 12 fence lizards (not native to my area, they live in drier climates) in my backyard. I was still seeing them several years later and they looked plump and healthy so they did survive just fine. But still, eventually, they all died off and were unable to successfully breed here(near as I can tell) due to the climatic conditions since successful incubation of the eggs would have been highly unlikely. So yeah, the lizards made it just fine here, but couldn't produce successive generations. Obviously, that is why there are none here in the first place. It's just too dang wet here. Any eggs that were laid (they dig a hole and bury them) would have surely rotted.

My point is, the released/escaped snakes themselves would likely survive just fine in an area that supports native garters, but that doesn't mean they will be successful at establishing a stable population.

[Didymus20X6]

I remember reading a report a couple of years ago about a den of Red-Siders being relocated due to construction or the like. Some scientists took it as an opportunity to study the relocated snakes, most of which were taken to dens a good distance away and tagged. The following year, they managed to locate close to 70% of the relocated snakes. Not only were they still alive, but they had acclimated to the new dens very nicely. What happened to the other 30%? Who knows? Possibly natural predation or natural death, possibly some simply weren't found for whatever reason. Still, with a 70% chance not only of survival, but of being located the following year, that's not bad at all.

I also think about some of Steve's snakes. I remember he told the story one year of one of his prized males escaping for an extended period of time, and actually turning up alive and healthy a year later.

Now, here's the thing: a captive snake does have a much stronger chance of survival. But keep in mind, this is because the owner is providing a predator-free comfortable environment, relatively clean and free from parasites, and a steady supply of food. In the wild, a snake has to deal with hostile creatures, competition for food, and less-than-ideal living conditions. So it does stand to reason that a snake in the wild has an overall less chance of survival. But this in and of itself does not necessarily mean that a captive-bred snake cannot survive. Only if the snake lost their natural instincts and senses while in captivity would that be absolutely the case.

[Bart]

I always been curious, if garters would survive in such climate as in Central Europe. And if they could mix with Natrix natrix. probably not, as grass snakes do lay eggs afterall and garters don't. Just my five cents.

[ConcinusMan]

Keep in mind that Steve's house is sitting right smack dab in the middle of a large and stable population of radixes and many of the snakes he keeps come from there, or are CB descendants of snakes from there. I've had a few escapes over the years too, that turned up a year or two later in my yard or nearby. Not really surprising being how they were native snakes.

I hear what you're saying about CB snakes and it certainly does apply when it comes to snakes that are artificially selected/line bred, etc. and many generations removed from the wild. Snakes that are well suited for the purpose of captive breeding of good looking morphs are coddled and cared for and can eventually end up being ill suited for survival in the wild.

Even so, I don't believe that such snakes ever lose their instincts. All my captive bred (many generations removed) snakes still behave as any wild snake would. Such a snake would still be survival driven. Survival being...

Hunt and find food, shelter, reproduce, avoid predators. Those instincts never really go away.

[RedSidedSPR]

True dat. My thoughts exactly.

[Spankenstyne]

I remember reading a report a couple of years ago about a den of Red-Siders being relocated due to construction or the like. Some scientists took it as an opportunity to study the relocated snakes, most of which were taken to dens a good distance away and tagged. The following year, they managed to locate close to 70% of the relocated snakes. Not only were they still alive, but they had acclimated to the new dens very nicely. What happened to the other 30%? Who knows? Possibly natural predation or natural death, possibly some simply weren't found for whatever reason. Still, with a 70% chance not only of survival, but of being located the following year, that's not bad at all.

Here's an interesting pdf regarding relocating wild garters to another den site. The natural return rates to the winter dens seem to normally be about 32% according to this study (32.5% in this study) & the introduced tagged population had a similar rate at 30%. Perhaps you had those percentages mixed up?

http://www.srd.alberta.ca/Biodiversi...arterSnake.pdf (http://www.srd.alberta.ca/Biodiversi...arterSnake.pdf)

Shows that relocation can be doable under the right conditions.

[Spankenstyne]

Here's an interesting pdf regarding relocating wild garters to another den site. The natural return rates to the winter dens seem to normally be about 32% according to this study (32.5% in this study) & the introduced tagged population had a similar rate at 30%. Perhaps you had those percentages mixed up?

http://www.srd.alberta.ca/Biodiversi...arterSnake.pdf (http://www.srd.alberta.ca/Biodiversi...arterSnake.pdf)

Shows that relocation can be doable under the right conditions.

Bad link, here's the right one: http://www.srd.alberta.ca/BiodiversityStewardship/SpeciesAtRisk/documents/SAR30-RedSidedGarterSnake.pdf

[Sonya610]

You seem to contradict yourself in that statement. "probably a lot would survive just fine"... "and I doubt if most could make it on their own."

Sorry didn't see the followup's. What I meant was IF the snake was acclimated to the natural food AND it was released near a den with the same sub-species yes many probably would survive; however I seriously doubt if most of the pet garters released into the wild have those advantages.

Grant it many of the folks on this site go out herping and look for wild garters in their area so they know where the right areas are, but those that buy from breeders or other pet stores do not do that so they wouldn't know (or necessary care) about the best locale with a large garter population and they wouldn't think of making sure the animal has been acclimated to the local food sources before releasing.

Richard you yourself talk about capturing beautiful wild garters and having to release some because they cannot adjust and will not eat. Some will only eat a very limited diet. You know they don't all thrive, and I assume some will die from the stress and lack of food as a result.

Same thing could easily happen with a CB garter that spent his life eating tilapia and pinkies and suddenly found himself in a foreign environment with NO tilapia pieces or pinky parts lying around! He is stressed being in a foreign environment, possibly not being able to find suitable shelter during cold weather, and if he doesn't recognize the food sources he is a goner.