Advice please

[lauwersp]

My two wonderful garters have been very happy for a year now. This morning, however, I awoke to find my smaller with his/her head tilted. She also is usually jumpy at being handled but was the most docile I've ever seen her. I picked her up but her head keep rolling and her body naturally follows so I would describe it as slowly twisting.

She was completely fine (from what I could tell) yesterday.

Advice please.

And thank you everyone.

[guidofatherof5]

Coulkd be serious serious. A Vet. visit is my suggestion.
What have you been feeding? Any suppliments?

[RedSidedSPR]

Wow. I have no idea. But it looks bad.

[lauwersp]

Minnows... and I'm going to get some supplements today.

[RedSidedSPR]

Minnows... that could actually be the problem. (i used to feed minnows, than i learned they are bad) But don't go by me.

[guidofatherof5]

Sounds like Thiaminase poisoning.
B1 deficiency. A Vet visit is needed ASAP.
Needs B1 injections if it's not too late.
B1 deficiency many times doesn't show until there is no hope of recovery.
Supps. at this point might help but injections of B1 will ad recovery even faster.
I don't report being a Vet. but simply took the information of its food and symptoms you described and drew a likely conclusion it was B1 deficiency.
Keep in mind or other snake has been eating the same food
Best of luck

[lauwersp]

yep... and the other one eats more minnows than this one... i guess i have to source baby mice... and of course vet and vitamins asap

[guidofatherof5]

I think the evidence supports that conclusion.
Minnows/goldfish as a main food source is not good.
Please keep us posted on your friend.;)

[ConcinusMan]

I have to agree that this sounds like neurological issues which can be caused by late stage B1 (thiamine) deficiency. This isn't good at all. A vet would be needed to determine if that is indeed what it is and there is a small chance he could be saved with B1 injections.

The only other possibility is an inner ear infection but that doesn't seem likely considering what he's been eating and the fact that inner ear infection doesn't usually happen unless there's been some kind of injury.

I've seen snakes born with "twisting motion" from severe inbreeding, and baby snakes born with a head tilt which later improved, but that's not the case here.

[infernalis]

Try offering fresh cold water.. dehydration does weird things too. it's worth a try.

sometimes they will refuse their own water bowl even if it looks fine to you.

[ConcinusMan]

Try offering fresh cold water.. dehydration does weird things too. it's worth a try.

sometimes they will refuse their own water bowl even if it looks fine to you.


Good point. Balance is sensed in the inner ear by shifting fluid. If that fluid is low, then it can cause imbalance. Again, I think a vet is needed to find the cause.

[RedSidedSPR]

Asap.

[infernalis]

Well one of the documented symptoms of dehydration is lack of muscle control, spasms and shock. So I look into that possibility when I see those symptoms.

[lauwersp]

Thanks everyone...

It's been a very sad day over here, although he/she seems stable at the moment. Water has been changed of course and the other one is laying by its side... I will keep you all posted.

[lauwersp]

I feel like I am sitting here watching her die... and there is nothing i can do at the moment to do anything about it.

[guidofatherof5]

She's in our prayers.
Best of luck.

[RedSidedSPR]

Hope she makes it

[d_virginiana]

Best wishes for your snake 8(

[Sonya610]

I feel like I am sitting here watching her die... and there is nothing i can do at the moment to do anything about it.

Can you find a vet that can help? Many petsmarts have vets open all day saturday and sunday. They often are NOT great but if you know what you want (i.e. injectible b vitamins) you can call and see if they can provide that. I would do my own research before going in (i.e. what they need, what dosage, needles, etc... as those vets are hit and miss but sure a heck of a lot cheaper than an emergency clinic on a weekend).

There is one in Traverse City, MI about an hour away. Maybe they have a vet hospital that is open today. Even if it is NOT a b deficiency I really doubt if supplementing with vitamin b can do any harm, but of course I do not know. If it is an infection maybe fin dout how those are diagnosed, I would assume a non-herp vet will know about as much as you do so be prepared.

Not sure if snakes can be given sub-q fluids for dehydration (maybe someone here can tell you) but if there is a way to tell if snakes are dehydrated and they can be given fluids I would find out about that too before going in.

[guidofatherof5]

With all due respect.
Euthanizing at this point should be a consideration, in my opinion.
Death from B1 deficiency is a agonizing thing to watch and almost always terminal in its late stages(if I'm wrong please correct me).
It's your call as the keeper.
Not an easy decision and one I don't envy.
Best of luck.

[ConcinusMan]

This is true. If it is indeed B1 deficiency, by the time symptoms this severe show up, there is already severe damage to the central nervous system, internal organs, and it usually causes an enlarged heart as well. Prognosis isn't good for advanced cases.

[lauwersp]

Well despite a trip to the vet and eyedroper fed vitamin supplements, my little one lost its fight for life today, and I feel completely responsible...

Thank you all for you advice and help.

What a sucky day...

[Didymus20X6]

Terribly sorry to hear that, Peter.

[guidofatherof5]

Most of us have been where you're at.
If not your exact situation, something similar.;)

Sorry to hear about your little ones passing.
My condolences.

[RedSidedSPR]

Very sorry for you loss.

(I am defiantly switching to guppies)

[drache]

sorry for your loss, Peter

[BLUESIRTALIS]

Sorry for your loss.

[ZombieKitty]

Sorry for your loss Peter, i understand how heart breaking it is to watch.

Im currently treating one of my concinnus with similar/milder symptoms of your little one. Ive been injecting her with B1 for 5 days at the moment, with not a great sign of improvement. She's on a fairly balanced diet too (rodents/trout/salmon) with added liquid supplements, so it can just happen.

[Sonya610]

Im currently treating one of my concinnus with similar/milder symptoms of your little one. Ive been injecting her with B1 for 5 days at the moment, with not a great sign of improvement. She's on a fairly balanced diet too (rodents/trout/salmon) with added liquid supplements, so it can just happen.

If she has been on a balanced diet why is the diagnosis lack of B vitamins? Can the vets test and definitively say it must be due to lack of b vitamins and not brought on by an infection of some sort?

[d_virginiana]

Sorry for your loss. That sort of thing happens to everybody at some point, and it sounds like you really went the extra mile for your little one. I hope this experience doesn't discourage you from keeping garters, they're really wonderful animals.

[ConcinusMan]

If she has been on a balanced diet why is the diagnosis lack of B vitamins? Can the vets test and definitively say it must be due to lack of b vitamins and not brought on by an infection of some sort?

The truth is, there are many possible causes and conditions that can lead to the same symptoms, resembling B1 deficiency. A vet may be able to rule out B1 deficiency, and yet never find out what the alternative cause was. But at this point, it doesn't really matter. By the time these symptoms show up, there isn't much point in all the expense and vet visits because by the time you see symptoms this severe, the snake is usually already too far gone to recover.

And zombiekitty, I've had symptoms like that in concinnus too once before. This was a snake that had been fed a lot of salmon. Most salmon you can get at the store isn't even safe for human beings, let alone as a regular food for snakes. Mercury and PCB's are present in most salmon, at levels high enough to be considered unsafe for a human to eat more than a few ounces a month. Just think what that would do to a snake that is eating a lot of it. Only wild alaskan pink salmon has lowest levels of contaminants as far as salmon goes. Still, tilapia is a better choice if you're going to use grocery store fish. It has the lowest levels of contaminants of any fish I can find at the market. Most of the salmon is really bad. Loaded with PCB's and mercury. I see way too many snake keepers completely ignoring this fact. I avoid salmon altogether and feed my snakes mostly rodents but when I feed them fish, I use silversides or tilapia. Trout (farmed only) occasionally, because it has the same problem as salmon but not as bad.

Sorry about your snake dying Peter, but it's pointless to take the blame when it's quite possible it wasn't your fault at all.